prodigyJJ

I hate this bill. I disagree with the way that it was passed. I disagree with the idea of the federal government. The only real reason for national government should be for CIVIL DEFENSE, but Washington keeps stepping over its boundaries.

I for one would rather pay more of a premium for the privilage to use MY doctor on MY insurance than let the government handle anything else in my life. More government is not going to solve our problem.

I do feel that the insurance industry should be regulated. I disagree that this particular industry should be regulated by the federal government. I feel even more strongly that the government should be regulated. How can the government manage our health when it can't even manage itself?

To the person that said Bush started the war in Iraq, I'm pretty sure that Colin Powell made the "moving speech", and provided all of the supposed "evidence" needed to get permission to go to war with Iraq. Don't put it all on Bush. Place blame where blame should. As I recall Obama hasn't made many changes about the military occupations besides basically moving soldiers from Iraq to Afghanistan.

kingkilburn

The fact is you don't NEED insurance. If you are responsible and can prove it to DMV you don't need insurance.

I hope they do the same for this bill.

I don't even want to get into this one. You are just wrong about so many things here.

The only thing I will say is this. How do you thing the Republicans passed so many things during Bush's term? No body belly ached when they did it and if it was so bad they could have used their majority vote to get rid of it.

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fckillerbee

what??? where did you get this info from?

kingkilburn

From California DMV. If you can show you have the money you don't need insurance. DMV gives you a print out that acts as your proof of insurance. I don't remember the amount off the top of my head.

Here is the link:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures...18.htm#accevid

It looks like the amount is $35,000. It sounds like a lot but it is the combined total of the minimums that auto insurance is required to pay out.

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prodigyJJ

I respect your opinion kingkilburn. I don't feel like I'm wrong, but I do feel that I may not have clearly explained what I was trying to say in my post. Here goes:

1) I'm not supporting the Bush administration any more than I support Obama's administration. The only reason that I said what I said about Bush is because someone made an earlier post placing all of the blame of our military being in Iraq on Bush. I was simply stating that had it not been for Colin Powell's convincing presentation of false evidence, congress would not have made such a decision. I'm not taking up for the Bush administration at all. They made some f'd up decisions also especially in terms of handling illegal immigrants. And Bush didn't help our deficit either. That whole administration sucked.

2) This whole deregulation thing started with the Clinton administration, but as you pointed out, no one was crying or belly aching then either (because our country was making a butt load of money). The bubble just happend to burst during the Bush administration. It isn't like wall street and washington both didn't see it coming.

3) I said that government should be regulated , reigned in by US (the people), and made to be more transparent before the government can handle managing any more of OUR money let alone our health. That is what I was meaning to say anyway. In literal terms: the fed has a f'd up track record, they're spending WAY too much money without showing accountability in my opinion. Honestly, if they can't manage the money that we give them, I damn sure don't want them making any decisions on how my health care is handled. Seriously, look at all of the ear marks that are being injected into some bills these day. Lobbyism is helping waste a lot of money too.

I got off on a tangent but, that is my opinion. I'm not saying that I am against health care reform completely, but I don't think that right now is the best time to do it, and I don't really want the government to handle as closely as they'd like it to be handled.

fckillerbee

that is rad....i have never heard of this.

wh0aitznic0

This is a big fucking deal.

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lewisfk

[QUOTE=jspaeth;3356705]You sir are a fucking moron. Medicare and Social Security are failed! A program is NOT a success if you have to keep increasing taxes on people who are NOT using the programs to keep them running.

Wow sir, u must be a fucking idiot to ignore the banter of the Republican Party! The first thing they said about the health care bill is that it would cut all the benefit like medicare and Soc. Sec! Senior citizens were linking up by the bus load to complain about this fact! It was the man talking point for half a fucking year! So how can u say there a failed program, yes it has flaws but what doesn't. Im sure NJ IS FUCKING FLAWLESS!

ranger240

yeah bud.. you have to elaborate on whatever you mean... so the recipient of healthcare pays something (what should that cover in your opinion?) and the provider gains nothing over what? a govt regulated paycheck?

thats a craptastic idea

i dont think you understand what profits are


ex:

a dr in private practice... they shouldnt operate beyond their break even point? i.e. the point in which all their expenses are covered? is that what you mean....

all healthcare providers should be nonprofit??? is that your idea?

bc its dumb and is neither going to work nor happen..

what 22 year old college grad is going to shell out over 100k and 6 or whatever years to finish grad school and residencey... only to make a shitty paycheck?

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kingkilburn

I'm not going to sit hear and give you an economics lesson. If you don't understand the difference that sounds like your problem.

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Matej

Still excited about this.

Yes, it is not perfect, it is not even very good. However, it is a small baby step in the right direction, because the current system is terrible and something definitely needs to be done about it. This move will get something started, hopefully.

The real problem in America is not the quality of the services provided, it is the insurance system, which I believe needs a complete overhaul. Unfortunately, it will be long before that happens, because the insurance 'industry' (it is really sad that insurance was allowed to turn into an 'industry') has a huge influence.

ranger240

econ lesson??? im not asking for an econ lesson, just trying to figure out what kind of skewed nonsensical perspective on economics your brain develops

your points suck and im simply shedding light upon that

if you cannot take criticism to your perspectives on healthcare or even worse cannot defend them, than they probably were rubbish to begin with

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Phlip

What he is getting at is that what is happening now is price gouging. As in, the service that is being provided to patients is NOT worth the money these individuals are being paid. At least that is what it seems he is saying in my mind.

I would call it borderline predatory, but looking at the way it works, and the major breakdown of communications between healthcare providers/servicers and the actual practices and how most of the time the financial responsibility falls on a patient who can ill afford the exorbitant costs, even if the fuckup was not their fault I will say that it is egregiously predatory.
Seriously, my moms works in billing for a lab company, and it seems that the doctors' offices just refuse to care when it was their mistake that drives a patient's costs way up. Five good friends and my sister work for 3 insurance companies (United Health Group, Aetna and Blue Cross Blue Shield), and they're more often than not hamstrung with what they're ALLOWED to release payment on, and if the doctor's office messes up and leaves the issue unresolved, the spoils go to an otherwise optionless patient, to the tune of up to tens of thousands sometimes.
Almost boils down to "what do I care, I still get paid the big check" to the casual onlooker.
THAT is a set of issues that needs to be addressed, like making health care and insurance actually affordable, in my opinion.

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kingkilburn

The whole industry is designed to grab the money going between doctors, patience, and medical equipment suppliers.

They systematically under pay those who pay them to provide care and that forces doctors and suppliers to over charge. Who do you think ends up footing the bill for that?


I think the insurance should pay directly to the patient(like real auto insurance does). Let the patient take responsibility for paying for their care. This also helps the market to come to some kind of equilibrium as far as prices.

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Phlip

See, now... While that might work if people were honest, the fact of the matter is that we live in the real world. In auto insurance, there is the collateral that is your car -- as in getting it back from repair with that money -- or your continued legality in paying out to someone else or back to the insurance company in order to continue being insured and licensed. They can't hold your baby as collateral at the hospital because you've not paid your bill. That is an apples/pears argument, as I call them. Sure, we're discussing insurance, but two vastly different ideas of it.

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drftmark

kingkilburn is just holding on by a straw with his "non-profit" argument that makes 0 sense.

On another note, while the insurances costs were getting high, it is not ALL of their fault.

Americans need to be held accountable as well. Go to the mall or something and see how many obese/fat people you see. Do you know how many problems come with being obese??? A SHITLOAD.

When at a bar, a bar tender can refuse to give someone drinks because they are already to drunk and don't need another one. America doesn't have a problem with this law, so why don't we do that with food as well?

Fat guy goes to McDonalds, he should get turned away for being to fat and he doesn't need it.

All I am trying to say is, people need to fucking work out and eat right to keep health care costs down, not just bitch about paying a lot for their disorders that could have been easily prevented if they weren't 100 pounds overweight.

lewisfk

^^U have a valid point! If being fat was an Olympic sport the US would win goal for the next century! The main reason health care cost so much is that everyone wants to make a buck! It starts with congress, their lobbyist and it trickles down to the insurance company, and to the hospital! Everything is marked up 10x the normal amount if not more! Americans are getting fucked by greed, yes being fat and eating like a slob plays a factor but it's a small one! In my eyes there are 3 main reasons healthcare cost so much!

1: Illegal immigration! If they can't afford insurance and there injured who picks up the tab? I remember watching CNN and they did a study on how many illegal immigrants did or did not have health insurance. The results were well above 95% who did not! When people without insurance go to the hospital its usually to the E.R., because they can't be denied treatment! When this happens they pass their medical bills/ cost to the community! Regardless the reasons of that E.R. visit everyone pays for it.

2: Predetermined Conditions! Regardless its morally unethical to say no to someone, or to deny insurance to someone because of a disease. This is a cut throat practice that allows the insurance companies to profit and piss down the backs of the consumers! If a farmer works his entire life and suddenly gets cancer, who is going to stand by him when his insurance company denies him coverage. Better yet, some insurance companies set a cap or a magical number for premiums! Once u hit that number your insurance coverage stops! It doesn't matter if you are cured, or you still need care! It's all about the cost, and having a person insured with cancer would cost the insurance company way too much money! I guess they care more about their profits, than a sick person!



3: My final reason health care cost so much is because of congress. Congress has the power to stop insurance companies from rapping us but they don't! Yes there is some campaigning for reform but most don't. It's because there being paid, via campaign funding, stocks, hell any way they can without raising a red flag! It's sad when you're a congressman and u say u represent the people, but your number one contributor it's the people! It's the insurance company or pharmaceutical company who liening your pocket with dead guys!



These are my opinions, why health care cost so much! These views are not from G. Beck's website nor Rush! It's all the hours I dedicated working in civilian as well as military hospitals! It's seeing the worst and hoping for the best!

KA24DESOneThree

We're raping ourselves with the insurance. It's our fault it costs so damn much.

Tear it all down. Start over.

J3123MY

LOL. Medicare and Social Security are failed programs because they are bringing the country into a crazy amount of debt. Replacing two failing government program with another government program isn't gonna do shit. Medicare and social security are failed/ing programs because soon/right now America will/is not be able to afford it.

I am a libertarian, so I look at this health care bill as a huge violation of our constitutional rights. We are forced to have healthcare by the government, or we will be fined. I don't need a nanny state to tell me what I need or don't need. On top of this, it is a government run program which will most likely, like most government programs, be shitty. Money is a huge incentive.

prodigyJJ

we need a good coup. LOL. Seriously this obamacare is almost pointless when the rest of our government is fucked. I respect all of the opinions of the supporters of this bill, but respect mine and the opinions of the non-supporters also. It's narcissistic and self centered, but I don't want to pay for anyone else's shit. Seriously.

kingkilburn

When Bush was literally taking away our rights and spying on us every one was cool with it. Obama tries to give more to the citizens and people want a coup.

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prodigyJJ

No. Everything was not cool when Bush was in office. I didn't vote for Bush. I voted independent (just like in the last ellection). I'm actually a fan of Ron Paul. People were complaining when Bush was in office. People are just plain f'n fed up now. It isn't specifically because it's Obama either. It is because a lot of people don't want anymore government. There is supposedly this great "change" coming, but the only change that is going on is money between pockets. It's that simple. It's just bad timing that Obama became the pres of a livid american people. I completely agree that healthcare does in fact need to be changed. I firmly believe that right now is the wrong time to do such a thing when the government has so many other things that are pressing.

On another tangent, and before this becomes a pro/con Obama discussion, here is my run down of recent politicians...

Clinton did well following the f'd up things that bush senior did even though he cheated on his wife. He got what he deserved

Bush should have been f'n booted from office and the country after 9/11, but instead he gets re-elected

Chaney is a criminal. How in the FUCK do you shoot a man in the face accident or not, and remain VP?

And Obama is also crooked. I would'nt have been so adamantly opposed to obama until he accepted a hollow peace prize.

amdnivram

seriously lol my balls accepted the peace prize before he did. He hasn't done nearly enough to even be considered. I pretty much agree with the post above me. The current social trends wont allow Obama to have a fair chance, but thats just how it goes, you can either handle it and change things or just try not to let it get worse. Its just really hard to change much when so much is going on.

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kingkilburn

I like Ron Paul for Sec State.

I think Obama doesn't deserve some of the bad press he gets. Had he been elected in a better time socially and economically I think people would love.

I can say without a doubt in my mind that he is doing better than Mcain would be and it sucks to yet again pick between two candidates I don't really like.

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imotion s14

the problem is the change rhetoric. But what has change that is really important? Economically Obama is doing EVERYTHING Bush did but on a much grander scale.

Bush came in during the bursting of the dot.com bubble, ran up deficits and stimulated the economy and interest rates were slashed to 1%. Obama comes in during the bursting of the housing bubble, ran up deficits to 1 trillion a year (and expected to be 1 trillion for the next 10 years), stimulated the economy even more, and dropped rates to ZERO PERCENT.

Nothing has changed, it's more of the same.

This health care reform isn't going to work they way they intend it and they know it. They don't give a shit whether it it works or not as long as it expands their power. The more power they have the more profitable being a politician is.

These politicians always make it seem that we're one act, one legislation, one regulation away from utopia. When the reform doesn't do it's intended job, I guaran-damn-tee you that they will be back to the drawing boards and they will say that the first bill didn't do enough and they will expand it further. With this government, failure means further expansion of power and they ultimate drag us down because we end up paying for their incompetence.

And people are afraid of the private business "raping" the people.

The more the plans fail, the more the planners plan.

g6civcx

99% of the people in this thread are talking about totally different things. The terminology is not being used consistently.

Just like I said. The administration should spend its first term educating the public. The average American is too ignorant to understand.

kingkilburn

The budget should be focused on fixing that. Maybe then most of the other social programs wont be needed.

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Omarius Maximus

imotion s14

Such as teaching Americans to ignore basic math and just believe in fairies and unicorns because Dear Leader says so?

kingkilburn

Military spending is a whole other topic. It is very in depth and to simply say cut military spending is very ignorant to the way the military works.

If you want to discuss this I would suggest starting a new thread.

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