drftmark

a lot of people in this thread should read the book Animal Farm

HalveBlue

A lot of the people in this thread should get cancer, break their backs, or be afflicted by any number of terrible maladies.

Then they should come back to this thread tell us what they think about the current health care system and this new legislation.

drftmark

I would tell you that I got my treatment quickly and that I am glad I pay for my own health insurance...

Is that a problem?

Then with the new legislation, I would tell you how fucked up it was waiting a year to get any treatment, having to travel to receive treatment, and when I finally do get treatment, the procedure went wrong because all the good doctors left and the only ones left are to busy with millions of other people.

kingkilburn

What are you talking about? Did you even read the bill?


I was going to try and explain it but fuck that. Read the god damn bill before you complain about it.

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TheWolf

Being in the health care system today. I see the problems of "free" government handouts. It erodes their own will to work to earn their own keep.

I had a lady bring her two kids in today. Driving her lexus suv. Well dressed. Living in a nice country club where it's atleast $600/month in association dues. Ran both her kids through on medicaid. Had no problem letting someone else pay for her kids care. If she's on medicaid she's on wic as well. It would be one thing if this was a rare occurrence, but it's not unfortunately. It becomes everyone trying to value their "needs" greater than everyone elses. Like a race in school to see who can cheat the most to get the highest grade. No one wins and all I can do is smile. I know this lady has little chance of going to work and earning her keep.

Once someone is given something for free, they see no value in working for it. It skews their outlook. Look at the statistics for how many people that go onto gov't assistance that come off of it. Initially. 75% of recipients go on it come off in under a year. In study after study of these recipients, the report from employers is "Still, employers frequently note absenteeism and poor attitudes toward work, problems that are strongly linked to turnover and weak job performance" If you would like the peer reviewed journal articles that show this I will provide. Within a year they are back on it. Welfare could be more addictive than crack or booze.

All these "repeal" plans and sueing the gov't over legalities is a farce. The horse is out of the barn people.

This world's shit doesn't run on magic. It runs on rules and those rules work because people enforce them. When politicians, and big businesses don't follow rules. They set an example for everyone to follow. If they don't enforce their own rules. You get a bit of anarchy. If wall st. didn't get bailed out, you wouldn't see people walking away from their houses like they are now. If the fed hadn't been continually bailing out banks, they would have folded. How about fannie and fredie mac? 162 billion and they're still just hemorrhaging cash. Maybe now if you want to buy a house.. you can apply for one from the gov't? The masses budget their checking accounts like politicians balance their budget. Someone stands on a high moral ground (bunning), he's pelted to move. Someone stands on high moral ground like stupack, and then folds after a pay off, it's "expected". It will be interesting if obama uses 20 pens to sign the executive order as promised or if that takes "some time to work out". Even the census tells us not to be counted but if we don't send it back in, we're not going to get our "fair share of money". That's why I put 18 native alaskan tribesmen lived at my house. (Secretly I'm hoping for a casino).

The absolute WORST thing this health care bill does is give 30 million poor ignorant people the belief they're getting "free healthcare". NO they're getting a subsidized check for some BS low budget crap health insurance. TOTALLY different. Wait till they realize that 70/30 globocare cheapo plan they signed up for means they have to pay 30% of that operation. Of that gunshot wound. Of that knife stabbing. Of that car accident while drunk/high. Of that lifeflight ride to the hospital. Surprise. You owe $40k because you bought cheap insurance. And if you don't pay us, we'll terminate your insurance and alert the IRS that you're "uninsured". They also got a current address/phone on you from the hospital. The easier to track you with. It also sets a price floor for policies. No policy will be cheaper than the subsidized rate. This is a recipe for disaster. These people have no idea what makes a good insurance policy or even a clue as to what they'd be accountable for. They couldn't tell you the difference between a HMO and a PPO. They don't know you can only goto certain network hospitals. Certain docs. Good luck finding one on the cheapie plans that currently accepting new patients. I tried to book a kid for an ortho surgeon last week, they were booking 3 months out. Told me to try the city 3 hours drive away to get in sooner. I can only imagine how many "victims" are going to be taken advantage of. The amount of the "It's not fair, This isn't free, It's not good quality care" comments. No shit.

Nothing is free. It has to come from someone elses labor. You, me, anyone on this forum. All work a certain percentage of the year for free to help pay for someone who doesn't want to work. They're like a leech. slowly sucking blood out of you. nothing more than a useless parasite. the only way to remove a leech is to cut it off. make it live on it's own or die trying.

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Eye on the Prize

imotion s14

because profits is the only market mechanism for an economy to send signals to producers that they're doing shit right. When you run a company and it don't make profit you go out of business. The fact that we have who think health care is immune to the laws of economics because they care more makes me laugh at the sheer ignorance of these people.

And non-profit does not mean they don't make profit.

DALAZ_68

sweet...one less person to drag america down by his logic

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LOL 240... whats better than 1? 5 1's ...lol
PSN & XBL GT : Wh0pp3r68

CLUB LEXUS : Wh0pp3r

kingkilburn

Right now it's running as a cartel sanctioned by the government. That is bs.

I didn't mean as a non-profit organization. I meant make zero profit. There should be NO insurance market. The world seemed to get by just fine without it.

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ranger240

think about that... over 10% of your taxes covering interest the government owes via its debt....

now sure is a great time to tack on more debt


zilvia, lets do the math....

pretend its 2013, those doomsday 2012 fools got it all wrong. say your taxed 12% for simplicities sake of 40,000 you made in a year. that means almost a month and a half of your year spent working is done to cover govt spending... now 10%of that 4800 bucks goes to covering interest... which amounts to you spending about half a week a year of labor simply to cover debt-interest.... for the govt

whats more striking is that every taxpaying American does this in varied proportions to service this govt debt.. how is that the best use of labor?


if anyone reads that bloomberg article they'll be shocked to compare the govt debt ratios between the u.s. and germany

how is this pertinent to healthcare? besides the irration of growing the govt and increasing taxes in a recession, we cannot afford more government expenditure

you know things are bad when suzie orman is advising people to save for retirement with roth IRAs bc taxes will have to increase in the future because of current govt debt-spending....

in-spite of every incumbents' best intention to dissuade you, physics and finance share adherence to laws... you cannot create something (printing $$) from nothing in physics nor can you within economics.. there will be opposing forces acting against it.. "print more money"(govt deficit spending) results are inflation and higher taxes... there's no getting around that and that is no way to operate the largest economy in the world.

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ranger240

goodness people need to actually think about what that means

zero profit=no return on investment=no incentive to invest in said industry=no rational players in said industry=no industry=no health insurance

which is what that person advocates, ''the world seemed to get by just fine without it"? without health insurance... you're using historical context to argue against healthcare? are you arguing against any private funding for healthcare? read my last post

"hey guys, before cars were invented, we didnt have global warming and the world seemed to get by just fine without them." we shouldnt have cars...

no more posts from me in this feeding frenzy of lame ducks


there were some terrific points raised by both sides that certainly added good perspective to mine... this conversation is pointless though,

our shortsighted leaders have sent us down the river straight into some class 5s...theres no turning back we just have to put up with it

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upsdude

-the whole 'repeal the bill' idea isn't going to go anywhere. even if the republicans got enough votes to do so, obama will veto it...and from there they don't stand a chance to get the 2/3 vote to override it.

-I hate this bill as a whole. can't stand how it was passed, it infuriates me the arrogance of congress and the president. but the kind of deal making that's been covered in the news is the same kind of political dealing that's been going on for decades-from both sides. Still, they're all liars, thieves, and whores.

-however you feel about the new bill...you have admire the sheer evil genius of it. all the good stuff takes effect quickly. Kids can't be denied coverage if they have a pre-existing condition. can't be kicked off the insurance if you get sick-if you have older kids they stay on till 26...etc.this is all stuff that people will openly welcome. one example: there was a woman who called a radio station happy about obamacare. why? her daughter has diabetes, and now she can continue to get care until a much later age. who's gonna be the first candidate to take their care away now that they've got it? it'll be a campaign killer.

-now that this timebomb of a bill has passed, there's no way to take it back. just like medicare, medicaide and social security. and just you wait, the legalization of millions of people "in the shadows" are coming next. sure the new healthcare bill says "no healthcare to illegal aliens". so what's the solution? legalize them! don't believe me? check out what lindsay graham and chuck schumer are hatching for that issue.

kingkilburn

We still need the health industry, all the doctors, researchers, suppliers,and inventors. All that gets by just fine with out the insurers.

Tell me why you need to bet some lawyer that you will get sick when he's betting you wont. Tell me also why that bet is necessary for the rest of the medical industry to operate.

The same can be said for car insurance. The flip side of that is that the cost of auto repairs has not gone up with the rise of the auto insurance industry.

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jspaeth

You sir are a fucking moron. Medicare and Social Security are failed! A program is NOT a success if you have to keep increasing taxes on people who are NOT using the programs to keep them running.

Again, that is called playing Robin Hood, except in this case, most of the "rich" people are hardworking people who have earned their money through hard work and wise investment.

Fortunately for you, I DID have cancer 3 years ago. Fortunately for me, I have worked my ass off my whole life, and now am in a graduate PhD program at a school that provides me healthcare, that the school deems I deserve, based upon me being here.

And the care that I got was the BEST of the BEST. And it isn't luck. It is because I and my family worked hard to get where we are.

You sir, are very, very intelligent and TELL IT HOW IT IS. And also, now a 4th seperate anecdotal about some asshole fuckers getting federal aid and driving around in a Lexus SUV.

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Daily driven

KA24DESOneThree

Something I learned this weekend:

My dad has lymphoma and is currently covered by his insurance, provided for him by his (private) employer. His treatments occur once every 2 months; he has six per year. His cost is $5,000 each treatment. They pay $20,000 each treatment. His cost is $30,000; the total is $150,000/year. He's been on this for several years now.

He will be starting chemo soon, the $150k/year was some other treatment. He will have up to six doses. Average cost ranges greatly, but $100k+ is a possibility.

I don't need to get cancer, my dad has it for me, so anything healthcare-related does hit home.

However, the last two times I've been to the hospital, I paid for it by check, no insurance company involvement because it wasn't something you use insurance for.

The current health care system is broken. This bill is not going to fix it. This bill is not going to do anything but increase cost and abuse of the system, while putting a burden on peoples' backs that they should not have to shoulder. We should have never turned to our leaders to fix private companies, we should have turned to the companies, to the private healthcare industry as a whole, and forced them to reduce costs through the power of our spending. We should have turned to ourselves and said "stop abusing the system; it is there when you need it but it is not something you take lightly."

The free market could be a beautiful thing if allowed to exist. However, it will never exist so we will never know.

jspaeth

I believe that healthcare is NOT a right.

I don't think it is right for Insurance companies to increase premiums when you get sick or drop you.

However, it IS INSURANCE. Why would they charge someone they KNOW IS ALREADY SICK or IS GOING TO GET SICK LESS or the same?

Why should a healthy person have to pay the same for healthcare as someone who smokes a pack of cigarettes a day?

Furthermore, why should the smoker have is healthcare paid for by other non smokers?

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Daily driven

kingkilburn

Why should some one who has been healthy their entire life get dropped because they got cancer? Why should that person then be denied coverage for a preexisting illness?

You just bet them you would get sick for 20 years. When it's finally time to cash in your chips the casino closes down on you.

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ryguy

This sir, is the solution to the illegal immigrants getting healthcare question. I realized this as soon as the media started covering Obama's new shift to immigration.

Hell, half the Democrats careers are effectively over. Why would they not vote for amnesty?

Now this I agree is something that needed to be changed, the whole being dropped because you actually got sick, when you've been paying your premiums your whole life. However, people who did not have insurance when they got sick took a gamble and lost. They did not purchase insurance, and they have no right to medical care.

Think of it this way. I am driving around without collision insurance on my car. I ram into a telephone pole going 50 and total my car. Should I be able to go to the insurance company and decide after the fact that I want to buy collision insurance, that would apply retroactively, and make the auto insurance company buy me a new car? No, thats a farce. Same as the new law regarding pre-existing conditions.

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jspaeth

I think ANY rational person can agree on this.

But these are people that WERE responsible enough to purchase insurance in the first place and are getting screwed over.

That is not the same thing as "I can't afford healthcare" (but I just bought a reasonably nice car for $10,000, a flatscreen TV, a Blackberry, and an X-box to play NBA 2K10.)

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Daily driven

upsdude

and i'm sure most of them realize that. but it's like they've won the superbowl..nothing else matters. they can say "i was part of history" blah blah blah by backing/voting for healthcare reform. so even if they do lose their seat, they feel that it was worth it.

imotion s14

46 years ago there wasn't a big health insurance industry. They were created by government mandates. So we turned over our health care industry to these insurance companies and now you don't like it. The problem you speak of was created by government in the first place.

Would you work for free? then why would you want anyone else to work for free because that's what you're very ignorant view of the underlying economics is proposing.

When you go to a doctor, he makes a profit from charging you for a services. Otherwise why would anyone want to work? Why would anyone want to do anything?

kingkilburn

The government isn't infallible(obviously), hell they may have created it just for some senator's buddy to make some cash. I don't care how the industry was created it needs to go.



When did I say free? I said no profit. There is a difference.

There was a time when the average American could afford decent healthcare with out needing insurance. This wasn't because they made more. It was because the cost of the medical care was so much less.

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ranger240

definition of profit

The positive gain from an investment or business operation after subtracting for all expenses. opposite of loss.

profit Definition


please do explain your stance a bit more, even if not to anyone but yourself

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kingkilburn

EXACTLY

There should be no positive gain.

Free implies that I pay nothing and get something in return. That is not what I
'm saying.

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HalveBlue

Seems like you (and your family) have done rather well for themselves. Good on you.

I have no problem with people enjoying success or the fruits of their labor.

But remember, no man is an island.

And no matter how smart, industrious, or clever you are, some things are out of your control.

I will reiterate that I am glad this bill got passed. It may not be perfect, but at least it's better (in my opinion) than the clusterfuck of a system we have in the US right now.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. This topic is too complex to cover in a few posts here and there on an automotive forum.

Live long and prosper jspaeth!*



*and the same to your fellow minded compatriots.

jspaeth

My key qualm is that although MANY people are working as HARD as they can and still can't by,

There are also MANY people that are completely using the system. These people on welfare with nice cars and flatscreens just piss me off, and I feel like there are probably a lot more of them then any of us realize.


I believe the first group DOES deserve help, but the second group of lowlifes should go to hell.

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Daily driven

Agamemnon

Thats a bullshit compairison. Driving is a privilege, not a right. You are mandated(by the state, not the federal gov't) to purchase auto insurance when you choose to drive. This bill forces you to purchase insurance(unconstitutional) on the sole basis that you have a pulse.

Lets forget about insurance. Lets forget about who this helps, and blah blah blah.
I want to know from the people that support this bill, how you think the government has right to violate your constitional rights?
Are you guys saying that the ends justify the means? Whats good for the goose is good for the gander? That we should force citizens to purchase things they may not want for the good of society?

What happened to the rights of the individual?

drftmark

Unfortunately they are gone because some fucks in Washington don't care about the individuals, just the lazy fucks that will come out to vote if they give them free shit.

The saying “health care is a right, not a privilege” is straight up retarded. Let’s see, how about food, clothes, housing, transportation, access to phones, exercise facilities, internet, TV, etc? Where does it end?

In the old days, churches and charities did a pretty damn good job about seeing that fellow citizens were taken care of. But now the government will by force take from one group and give to another, and thereby give them no reason what-so-ever to try to better and improve themselves.

Welcome to the world of the liberals; it’s sounds compassionate , but it is a social disaster. Why after 60 years of special protection and laws for minorities (i.e. blacks[I am not racist that is just an example]) are their neighborhoods so dysfunctional? Rampant unemployment, broken homes, unknown fathers, reward unwed moms more federal money for more kids (now that’s a winner) , etc.; a real success story.

It’s comforting to know that the IRS will be enforcing health care laws; and that Medicare, Medicaid, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Social Security, and the Post Office (all run by federal government in case you didn’t notice the trend) are all bankrupt.

jspaeth

I tried, but I can't find anything that is untrue about anything that you wrote.

I enjoy when people speak the truth rather than trying to be politically correct.

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Daily driven

beeracing s14

im glad it passed too. nobody wants a 10k dollar bill statement in their mailbox once they get sick, do you? damn i could buy another car with that. lol

jspaeth

It's not about that, it's about where the money comes from. Of course unfair and illegal practices by the insurance companies need to be eliminated.


With regard to what you just wrote ^, I'm glad you have no problem buying another car with the $10,000 you saved because SOMEONE ELSE paid for your healthcare, asshat.

A doctor or lawyer or successful small business owner might as well just hand you a fucking check for $10-20K every year.

Your attitude is the reason our country is turning to shit. You want to depend on a program or something, but don't give a fuck or care to think that it is being paid for by someone else other than you.

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Daily driven