steve s14

Had a good time out there as usual. I didn't notice a whole lot of traffic, maybe because i was running in a private run group and slow and fast intermediate was combined into group C. If anything i was causing traffic with my stock car but i gave plenty of point by's when i could and people were really good about making clean and safe passes in the passing zones.
That would be an opinion i don't share. i didn't see anything that happened out there that seemed unsafe other than people spinning here and there. Most of the spinning out seemed to be in my run group but i didn't see a lot of it happen in group C. People spinning out is something that happens in no matter which organization you choose to run with. I would agree that people driving wreckless and spinning out all over the place due to driving way above their limit is unsafe and that any organization that didn't do anything to control that is not worth risking your car or yourself over.
I feel that you were just unsure of the rule differences with STUSA compared to others. First of all, they don't require point by's, they recommend them but don't require them because they feel that taking your hand off the wheel to point someone by is more dangerous. They set passing zones and set rules on how to passes are to be made. I'm sure you went to the drivers meeting and know their rules.
As for the fender bender, it was clearly because YOU didn't follow their rules. "It's the passer responsibility to make a clean pass". If you see that there is some risk to the passing situation presented to you, DON'T FORCE THE PASS. If you feel your driving ability is above the group your running in, you can request to be moved to the advanced group where you can pretty much pass anywhere you feel like passing.
I can't speak for what happened during the last combined C and D session because i sat that one out but it did look crowded out there.
BTW nice pics Don Nguyen

ronmcdon

there were lots of cool guys (on and off track) and great drivers that day in my group. As my group (C) got smaller later in the day, it was actually a joy to run with them. This leads me to believe that the number of cars on track was the single most important factor of being organized and having an enjoyable track experience.

The D group actually had lots of spin outs and off-road incidents. Casual observation and experience with some of the D group drivers, when the grps were combined would lead me to guess the C group were a bit more civil. but as I said, it's just casual observation. I really do not know enough to say which group had better drivers, and I am by no means a great driver myself.

chuonthis

ronmcdon, what was your car number? I was in the red S14. Were you the Lancer that passed me sometimes or the one that was passing me all the time? :P

Not sure if I can agree with group C being more civilized. I actually saw 3 cars spin out 2-3 turns after passing me.

My only complaints about the event versus Speedventure events is:

1) The tech inspection before the first session. Group C was running first but people from all other groups lined up for the tech inspection. I didn't finish mine until the checkered flag was being waved. Plus there were some nazi inspectors out there. Speedventures is very lenient in this area (self inspections, ftw!) but I haven't seen anything go wrong at their event.

2) No passengers except for/with instructors?! I think ride-alongs are a great way to learn/teach and it is a lot more fun/comfortable when riding with a friend versus an instructor (even if your friend isn't as good). I'm sure they have valid concerns since passengers can be distracting though but again, Speedventures allows passengers and I've never seen a problem.

Anyway, it was fun seeing everyone out there.

racepar1

When you run with speedtrials, run advanced if you are moderately fast. Speedtrials is un-arguably much less organized than say speedventures and the drivers are un-arguably generally of lower quality. Speedtrials is plenty of fun, you just have to pick the right group for you because they won't do it for you.

racepar1

I believe that this is a WSIR rule, NOT a rule specific to speedtrials, and WSIR has decided to enforce it all of a sudden for no apparent reason.

ronmcdon

Glad you had a good time Steve! It was enjoyable to meet you on the track, and to speak several other enthusiasts.

With regards to the appeal of STUSA, I humbly suggest we agree to disagree in a civil manner. I can only say as a consumer, that imo Speedventures are a much better organised group than STUSA, and that you get much much more value, and offered the reasons as to why that is the case. If I've said anything to offend you, I'd like to make it clear it was not my intention to do so.

With regard to your situation, you ought to take into consideration that we were both in very different situations. Speaking to you (and watching your car on the track), you mentioned that you were in a situation where most, if not all of the cars were passing you. Thank you for waving ppl behind you by. I could only wish that others showed the same courtesy as yourself. In your case, if you let everyone pass, there should be no traffic behind you. If you also drive a lot slower than most of the group you run with, the chances of you running into traffic should theoretically be less. If I was in the same situation as yourself, I would have enjoyed myself as well.

In my situation however, iirc, I was passing most cars, and also passed by a few others. Sooner or later, I am bound to hit traffic. Session 6 in the afternoon, combining C & D was notorious for excess of traffic. Here, we saw the worst of the worst in terms of STUSA's mis-management.

No I did not attend the morning driver's meeting (my fault there), but I did read STUSA's track & passing rules are on their website.; http://www.speedtrialusa.com/index1.html . If the info posted on their website is not up to date, it is STUSA's responsibility to maintain it. If STUSA decides to let a participant to join a run group without verifying their attendance in the driver's meeting, that might be a risk they should reconsider.

However, rules are a moot point if it isn't reinforced consistently (if at all). For the record, rules # 2, 3, & 4 were repeatedly violated, without any flagging. Furthermore, I never saw the blue flag being raised once (to request that a driver let another driver behind them pass).
These are also rules that are common to other run groups such as Speedventures, TCRA, Redline, etc. Only difference is, I don't see STUSA enforcing those rules.

With the regards to the no-point by passing rule, I think that is truly is very bad decision, especially when combined with the lack of enforcing #2, 3, 4 rules. I also do not see how allowing another car to pass you pass you on the straights, without having both hands on the wheel is dangerous. If you don't feel comfortable performing such a simple feat, then imo, you have no business running an intermediate HDPE track event at all. For all that matter, it might as well be a free for all, no holds-barred death rally. Point-by's are always safer than no point by's. It's never bad to communicate as much as possible, especially during track conditions.

About the fender bender incident, I believe you misunderstood me there. I never claimed that it was STUSA's fault, nor implied as such. I even spoke to you in person that this was a misunderstanding between me and the other driver, and that I take full responsibility for it.

I'm not saying that STUSA is a terrible group, but I am saying (and speaking for myself), that it was the worst group I've ever ran with, offered my observations and explanations. I have no experience at all coordinating a track event, and I must imagine there is tremendous effort and planning that goes towards it. However, as a consumer, I feel I should be allowed to choose whichever product and/or service that fulfills my expectations best. I should also be allowed to share my opinion on a board such as this, discuss, and to inform other potential customer of what issues to come across. Mind you much of it based on my experience with other (better organized & safer imo) groups out there. From some of the post on this thread, and my discussion with fellow track enthusiasts at the event, it appears that I am not alone with regards to my opinion in general. I intend only to offer an impersonal review. No doubt, YMMW. Likewise, if you have anything to discuss, then I'd be more than happy to listen and discuss further.

Stay safe out there!

ronmcdon

Hi there! My number was C-8. I was driving a silver lancer evo 10. I do recall passing you once. I remember chatting with you between the sessions (unless there was another red S14).

I was actually a bit taken back with with the passing rules. According to STUSA's website, passing is only allowed on the straights (and I would have to agree that this is a good idea); http://www.speedtrialusa.com/index1.html

However, you mentioned passing was allowed at the bowl turn. I missed the driver's meeting (my fault), and I am guessing they brought up that rule there. That contradicts their own online rules, and allows for the possibility of misunderstanding, if not worse.

Yes, with the no passenger rule I agree that is a pita, but as Racepar1 says, I think that is a rule of the track, and not with STUSA per say. Speedventures is actually doing the exact same thing. Here is a link from their site. Check it out;

http://www.speedventures.com/events/...il.aspx?id=175

Don Nguyen

I pretty much only did passes along the straights. There were only a couple of times that I did it anywhere else on the track, but that's because the car in front of me was pointing for me to do so.

articdragon192

Same, here. I had cooling issues to I let everyone pass my when a passing zone came up. Sucks you had a bad time with not letting people pass you Adrian. I had fun chasing Nessa and Mike down for a section of the track. Stupid cooling issues ;_; Next time it's on.

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autobahNESSA

Yeah, sucks you didn't have much fun, Adrian I actually had a very great time out on track (minus the overheating thing too) but because everyone was really courteous to each other out on track.

I just want to point out that my group (D Group) was not slow intermediate. We were filled with track professionals (from South Coast Subaru) and us (the Irvine 240 people). From what I could tell, driving with these people all day, the Irvine 240 people were the obvious slow ones in the group but were VERY courteous, couldn't have asked for more.

Edgar, next time, it is definitely ON! I didn't have my game face on when you came up, nope nope hahahahaha. Game face was on first 2 sessions. Game face turns sour soon after having a heater on full blast blowing in my face in over 100 degree weather and trying to have game face still on at the same time. Course these aren't excuses.

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steve s14

I didn't mean to sound as if I was offended. It's more that I want to clear up some of the facts in your first post regarding the track event. It just seemed to me as if you had a horrible time out there and was blaming it mostly on STUSA. I'm not saying that STUSA is the best organization to run with and I know that compared to Speedventures, they are not as organized. But again, I do feel their passing rules are good ones.

I agree that they don't wave the passing flag as much as they should. However, they do enforce passing rules as far as I've seen it. For example, rule #2:
All the passing that I've seen was done in the straight sections of the track as outlined in the Driver's Meeting. The only time I've seen passing done outside of the rules was done by the instructors, which is understandable in my opinion.

Secondly, as for the feeling of point-by's being necessary, I definitely do not agree. I feel that should be done out of courtesy and that is the reason why I do it but I do agree with STUSA. For example, they allowed passing on the main straight (of course) and going toward the bowl and the straight section coming out of the bowl but obviously not IN the bowl. They also allowed passing between turns 2 and 3. So all of these areas, are relatively straight sections, where passes can be done safely. Some of the sections, however, are relatively short, so why should STUSA demand people to point people by at that part of the track. With that being said, let's look at the areas between 2 and 3. It is MUCH shorter than the first area I talked about. I would agree with you that there shouldn't be any difficulty in pointing people by coming out of the bowl if you're an experienced driver. However, I, myself, wouldn't want to take my hands off the wheel coming out of turn 2 into turn 3. It's easy to spot when someone is going to let you pass or isn't going to let you pass. Also, since when is point-by's necessary in professional racing. If you're doing HPDE events your entire life, then maybe going to a venue that's going to demand point-by's is a better way to go. However, in my opinion, if you want to go to HPDE events that have reasonable rules, and is going to prepare you also for some professional driving, to demand such rules to me is unnecessary.

Rule #3:
I didn't see anyone hit the brakes unless they were coming up on a turn. Also, it was clearly outlined in the driver's meeting. If you've seen people hitting the brakes, then I can sympathize with you and that would also make me feel less safe to the point where I would bring it up to one of the instructors because they can't see everyone's brake lights out on the track. They try to police the track by circulating through here and there as best they can. However, if you see someone doing something such as that, help them police the track by bringing it to their attention so therefore they can enforce that rule.

Rule #4:
Passing on the left is preferred by STUSA, as far as I know. But, they clearly outlined in the driver's meeting that in some areas of the track, it is unsafe to pass on the left. Between turns 2 and 3, for example. Also, since you missed the driver's meeting, it did mention at the bottom of the safety rules page on their website that "*Every track has different set of rules. The above are guidelines and could vary." That's why the driver's meeting is so important.

This is the only reason why I wanted to bring this up. Again, I feel that most of your feelings towards STUSA is due to the lack of understanding of their rules. Sorry to hear that you didn't have that good of a time. I do admit that they are probably less organized than other organizations. But I still feel that they're safe and provide a good value, so I will continue to run with them. If you don't feel the same, I can understand and don't hold anything against you. Each person's opinion should be only valid to themselves, and that's what's important.

chuonthis

Some more pics from the event...stupid Picasa doesn't let you hotlink to images...

http://picasaweb.google.com/TommyKha...tsOfWillow7608

Scroll down to the bottom for me trying to take panning shots. Some of them turned out okay.

autobahNESSA

Thanks for the pics, Jason!!

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ronmcdon

My experience as a whole that day was far from horrible overall, even if I consider STUSA to be the least desirable of all hdpe organizations I've run with. All in all, I ran 4 sessions total. As I mentioned, C group, session # 5 with intermediate C went by quite smoothly. Also, as I have mentioned, I enjoyed speaking to fellow enthusiasts on the track.

As far as missing the driver's event, what other things did they go through, other than the passing rule that states point bys aren't necessary? Personally, I cannot agree with you there. I think point-bys are a bare minimum for safety in an intermediate run grp at the very least. If it's not safe to pass in a certain section, then perhaps passing shouldn't allowed regardless of point by's. This is why I fully support the rule of passing only in the straights. Better to err on the side of caution when it comes to passing rules. Instructors who run the intermediate group (of all people to set a good example to everyone else), should adhere to it's respective rules. I see no reason why they should not follow it.

Incidentally, STUSA's intermediate group passing rules are very similar to Speedventure's ADVANCED group passing rules, if not the same;

Taken from the Speedventures website, FAQ section; http://www.speedventures.com/faqs.aspx
" We have different passing rules for different run groups. Our advanced run group offers open passing, with or without a point by. The intermediate groups allow passing anywhere on track with a point-by. The beginner group allows point-by passing only in straight sections (no passing in turns)."

When you mix this in with high levels of traffic, inattentive flagging, and many drivers with questionable driving skills, it's simply not a situation I feel comfortable being in, especially not for saving $20 (which really isn't much when you consider the many other costs of doing track events).

Much of the point-by rules are a matter of preference of personal safety and driving of course. I don't think there really is a 'right or wrong' answer. Personally, I have no worries doing point bys in most of the areas of the track other than the chicanes. However if you feel otherwise, then it's not like its something I'm confident I can talk you out of either.

I have to disagree with you there for bringing up professional racing, as a reason why we should not need point-bys. Running an intermediate group with any HPDE event, much less STUSA is far from actual racing, and the rules and objective should reflect such.

Many of the factors I brought up on my earlier post would have not made a difference whether or not I attended the driver's meeting.

-25 cars per group is really a lot for such a small track.
-Combining C & D wasn't making things any better.
-lack of rule enforcement

Combining C & D groups was where I felt the organization of the event became absolutely unacceptable in terms of safety, organization, seat time, and driver courtesy. The whole endeavor felt a lot like my morning commute on the 101. Lack of flagging is a big issue. A well organized event either will have a smaller number of cars per run group, and/or make sure that track rules are enforced.

If anything, running with STUSA has made me appreciate Speedventures in areas prior I took for granted. I try to see the good in all things, and in all honesty I did enjoy myself despite some of the issues I felt STUSA needed attention. It was also a learning experience in event organization for me. I do hope they will improve. For those of you who have only run with STUSA to date, I highly encourage you to explore different HDPE/autoX groups out there.

ronmcdon

It was a very hot day no doubt. temps were around 103f. towards the end of each run grp, my dunlop z1's got to be a bit greasy and I was under the impression my lancer was considerably down on power. I also had some minor overheating issues when I did streets a month ago. I'd very much like to upgrade the radiator at the very least.

Did you get the chance to run the C & D group in the afternoon? That was my only experience with group D, and a limited one at that. Looking back, more or less everyone got stuck in traffic there. It's difficult to say which group was better or worse based on that session alone. Shouldn't track professionals be running an advanced group? The 240's out there seemed to be a mixed group. some I could tell were not very experienced drivers, or maybe just not comfortable with the track. There was a few good 240 drivers out there. There was green S14 that had some great lines and smooth driving.

steve s14

It was a private run group.
I agree with you that the Speedventures passing rules feel safer due to consistency. It leaves less things open for individual interpretation.
However, I also have no problem with STUSA's passing rules either.

I guess i might see you at the track when i go with Speedventures.
Good seeing you at the track though. It would of been nice if we could have ran in the same run group, i would have given you plenty of point by's

autobahNESSA

^Haha

Yeah, that Green S14..psh he sucks. Jk! It was Emmo and we all aspire to be like him

No, I missed out on the C & D one. I noticed it really was a load of drivers out there. I think they expected a lot less drivers because it was towards the end of the day (all the past times I've been with STUSA and they had combined groups, it was never a problem like it was on Sunday). I skipped out on it because I was too exhausted.

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ronmcdon

haha, for sure! I'm certain we'll meet again someday on the track. Actually, if another STUSA event comes along that isn't too full, I would consider going back again. Speaking to the STUSA staff, I recall they mentioned Sat was a lot less crowded and more fun.

I also hope you'll also be able to run some autoX groups with scca this year.

Steve, you are too modest. I think once you remove the self imposed handicap, all of us will need to give way to your 240sx! I know for certain I wouldn't be anywhere as capable driving under similar circumstances.

Thank you for a very insightful and thought provoking discussion. On further reflection, I have decided that some of my initial comments were not entirely fair and a bit harsh. I have edited my post accordingly. Track etiquette is always a fascinating topic of discussion, imo.

ronmcdon

Vanessa, next time allow me to buy you some energy drinks. nothing like going on the track after downing a couple of redbulls/rockstars.
But yes, hdpe's are totally a mentally exhausting. My most intense experience was doing a weekend 2-day event at Spring Mtn in Pahrump NV. Race by day, Vegas by night. Sleep? Forget about it!!!

But, wow it was a lots of fun!