alanmcinnes11

What is the best boost controller you can get for your money? My budget is around $75 and I have been looking on enjuku racing and the ISR V2 manual boost controller looks like it is pretty nice and the reviews are good But I just need a couple of opinions

Whtsr240

I made my manual boost controller for about 12 bucks or so. Best thing i have ever had works like a charm.

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Croustibat

I know you do not want to read this, but you should consider driving another car if you cannot afford a boost controller that will not kill your engine -that means an EBC.

You WILL destroy your engine and/or your turbo with an MBC. That is going to cost way more than what you saved buying an MBC over an EBC. For that reason, i cannot recommend any MBC. Unless you stole my GF.

Wait a bit more time, then buy a second hand EBC. It will work better ( but you are still going to kill your engine if it is not mapped and in GWO).

If you want a cheap way to increase power, get a FMIC and a freeflow exhaust. Both will increase boost without touching anything else.

Whtsr240

Getting a front mount will not increase boost... your boost is controlled by your wastegate. So whatever your spring is set for that's the boost you will have. What an FMIC does do is allow air to flow better and cool the charged air before it enters your motor.

As far as the comment about wait and get a EBC. They both do the same thing. They both controll boost. So each one has the potential of blowing your car up if you don't know what your doing. The difference between the two is on a manual boost controller you'll have to get out and get under the hood to adjust the boost pressure (that's if your doing a butt tune) if you have an EBC you can do it from the cabin. Both require a tune on a dyno. Where you can get away from doing that with a EBC because you and ad just it on the fly you can't with a manual one.

There are plenty of good manual boost controllers on the market. You just need to get a tune to make sure you set it to a good boost pressure for the most you have.

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Croustibat

What can i say ? You are wrong. A FMIC increase boost because it reduces backpressure at the compressor outlet. The same goes for the exhaust. If you had checked by yourself, you woud have seen it.

An MBC will create boost spikes, and boost will vary depending on temperature. set it at 15 psi in summer and you will hit 20 or more in winter. This also happens without an MBC, on a smaller scale.

An EBC, once set correctly, will do neither since it uses a closed loop regulation.

And since the OP is already cheaping out on a controler, he is clearly not going to get a dyno tune, hence he will blow his engine - regardless of using an MBC or EBC, it will just happen faster with an MBC.

Sent from my computer using a damn keyboard.

Whtsr240

We'll I don't know where you get you're into but a fontmount dose not increase boost pressure on your wastegate can increase boost pressure. You are correct that that it will decrease back pressure allowing the turbo to spin easier but that will not increase boost. So you mean to tell me that an a stock sr20 with 7lbs if I go from the side mount to a front mount and a three inch exhaust I will get more boost pressure???? Your totally wrong you will still have 7lbs because that is what your wastegate spring is set to. You will get more horsepower because you can mover more air but you won't increase boost pressure.

A pos Mbc might great boost spikes but a good one will not. It's a controlled bleed of air. Watch this and get learned. https://youtu.be/3SrAxPhW_Es

Brett is a mechinal engineer and you might learn something since you think adding an FMIC will increase boost pressure..

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Croustibat

I get my info from my own experience, that i gathered on my car and others for 10 years now. Since all s13 and 14 come with a ca18det or an sr20det as standard here, it is not hard to check.

What is sure is that it does not come from MCM videos that i do not understand. Here is a hint for you: listen again from 1mn58, think about where the wastegate actuator pressure line is connected, and what happens when pressure there is lowered by a less restrictive intercooler. Do i have to spell it out ?

Anyway you do not trust me, fine. Check it by yourself. It cannot be that hard, eh ?

Whtsr240

Wow.. ok so your gonna tell me right now that you went from stock boost pressure of 7lbs to a higher one just by adding an FMIC.. your wrong! Aperntly you don't how a turbo system works. And how boost pressure works or you wouldn't be saying that.

Pressure is pressure doesn't matter of its less or more restrictive. 7lbs is 7lbs!!!! No matter what you do you WILL NOT INCREASE BOOST PRESSURE by adding a FMIC. IT DOESNT NOT CONTOLL BOOST!!! Your waste get does. So no mater if it's less or more restrictive when the wastegate sees 7lbs it will open..

And no S14 from japan came with a ca18det. They only had sr20det. The ca18det only came in s13 from 89-98 but the later years it was just SR cause the ca18 is a pos.

You WILL MAKE THE TURBO SPIN EASIER BUT WILL NOT I SAY AGAIN WILL NOT increase boost.. it's impossible

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Croustibat

Why are you so hell bent on
1/ repeating your assertion without any explanation;
2/ not trying it yourself ?

Are you from Florida ? That would explain a lot of things.

Let's try one last time.

You get a 3psi drop with that stock intercooler (at high load and revs). There are 7 psi at the wastegate pickup point. it opens enough so boost stabilizes. Your engine gets a mere 4psi of very hot air.

Now, use an intercooler with a 1 psi drop. At first there is 7psi at the wastegate pickup point.Yet your engine gets 6psi of fresh air. 6 > 4. MOAR BOOST.

Seriously how THICK can you be ?

Whtsr240

Because you obvisley have no idea what your talking about.

1 from the factory an SR is rated a 7psi. With a stock side mount intercloor.
2. if you put a FMIC in your car you will still get 7 psi because that is what your wastegate is rated for.
3. You will increase flow of air because it is a less restictive intercloor their for prvodeing air to the motor easier their for increasing horse power.
4. PSI stand for pounds per square inch. It is pressure resulting from a force of one pound force on on square inch. Therefore restriction does not play a role in PSI. It's just a matter on how easily it flows.

Think of a hose right. And you have water coming out at 3 psi. You take the hose off you still have 3 psi of pressure.. same thing works for an intercloor.

No I am not from Florida. But it seems what ever back woods place you are from physics works differently.


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Whtsr240

Next your gonna say that putting an intake on increase boost pressure or that by putting a better turbo elbow increase boost pressures

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Kingtal0n

What crousti is trying to say is that the reference boost is changed depending on what sort of equipment you attach to the turbo.

For example imagine you install an infinite capacity intercooler. Imagine you could never fill it, it was always in a vacuum. If the reference for the wastegate is pre-intercooler, it will still open because the pressure before the intercooler might hit 7psi if the pipe were small enough to provide a resistance to flow before entering the intercooler. But the pressure after the intercooler will always be at a vacuum, so if you reference the gate on that side, it will never open and boost will build and build forever. This is where your "phantom boost increase" is coming from, now it can shoot as high as it wants even though it is set to 7 or whatever.

So now look at a normal intercooler and adjust it in the mind's eye. As the intercooler becomes more restrictive, the inlet and outlet pressure is going to become more and more split (different). If the gate is referenced to the 'hot-side' pre-intercooler, it will open sooner (you may lose boost pressure at the engine) since the pressure will be much lower on the cold side. Likewise, if you take the reference from the cold side, the gate will open at higher boost pressures. When crousti says "check for yourself" he means measure the pressure differential from hot to cold sides, you will see that the hot side is always a higher pressure, therefore the more restrictive the intercooler the higher the boost will go on the hot side when referencing the cold side. The trick is understanding the difference between pressure and flow. Having a more restrictive intercooler (than an equal 'length' of straight pipe) will always cause a power drop, make the turbo work harder, reduce pressure on the cold side and overall flow through the engine. So this is why we raise boost pressure, we get back our missing flow and try to add to it, hoping the intercooler will hold down the IAT so our additional boost doesn't explode the engine apart violently if we are using a cheap/pump fuel. When using good fuels, an intercooler might actually slow you down, sometimes serves no purpose, since any density gains are negligible as long as the compressor is not tapped out, only the temperature itself may get out of control, thus the necessity of using a good fuel like E85 or C16 or even some methanol mixed into the pump. It also depends what sort of intercooling we are talking about... some icewater/air intercooler do a really good job of lowering the IAT for measurable density gains. If you can get more back from the air density than you spent trying to force it through a larger space/more plumbing that will work out for you in terms of power output. But air/air intercoolers have a rough time achieving that with hot ambient air temps.

__________________
5.3/4l80e/turbo 240sx playthrough:
https://tinyurl.com/turbo240

justinbyrant

Hit the nail on the head

I would like to add something, since you referenced a garden hose for example, say your garden hose free flows at 1 psi, you put a little tiny nipple on it that backs pressure up to 7 psi then spray that nipple into another hose of the same size as the original, the first hose is seeing 7psi (pre intercooler where your wastegate reference point is) because the nipple is causeing a backup however the hose after the nipple (intake manifold) is actually seeing 1 psi or less due to the increased volume after the nipple, its a pretty simple concept, hook up a boost gauge right after the turbo and one in the intake manifold, on pretty much every single system you will see at the very minimum a 2psi difference no matter how short the piping and how free flowing the intercooler

TheRealSy90

Apparently Whtsr240 has never heard of pressure drop lol.


Same reason why your wastegate source is "supposed" to be as close to the compressor housing as possible. When you run your wastegate vacuum source all the way to the intake manifold is sees pressure differently.

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Whtsr240

Ok this is what you guys need to understand. First this whole thing started by crousti said was that he will blow his motor with a MBC. Then he says that a FMIC will increase boost this isn't true.

I know about pressure drop from an intercooler and I will explain it.

Let's say you have a 7psi wastegate. And you intercooler has a 0psi drop (which isn't possible) their for your turbo wold produce 7psi in the hot side and 7 on the gold side since their is no pressure drop. Now let's say you have an intercloor that has a 3 psi drop. Your turbo will produce 10psi in the hot side but only 7 on the coldside. This is all your motor will see because that is what your waste gate is set to. You will never have more then that so your intercloorer will not increase boost. Here is another example. You have a 7psi wastegate and a 2psi drop for you intercloor. Your turbo will produce 9 psi to compensate for the 2psi drop so that the motor still had 7psi on the cold side!!! Are you guys just thick headed.. intercloors can not increase boost.

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Whtsr240

You guys just don't understand that even though your turbo will produce more pressure your motor never sees it. By having a less restrictive intercooler you make it so the turbo does not have to work as hard to hit the intended boost pressure. You all should pick up a book and read! Here you go..http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...20Test%20.html

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justinbyrant

That is wrong, if you have a 7 psi spring and a 3 psi drop your turbo will not produce 10 psi, your turbo will still produce 7 psi but the pressure in the intake manifold and cold pipes will be 4 psi same with a 7 psi spring and a 2 psi drop intercooler, your turbo will still only produce 7 psi but the cold side will see 5 psi, this is the reason why the wastegate source is right at the turbo, its the most reliable place, this is also why you never plumb your boost controller or boost gauge into the hot side its always the intake manifold partially because its also a vacuum source but also because that's the true boost the engine is seeing, what ever the spring is set to is where the wastegate opens relative to hot side pressure prior to pressure drop

intercoolers do not increase boost, they increase the relative pressure, upgrading from say a 4 psi drop intercooler to a higher flowing 2 psi intercooler does effectively raise boost pressure because with a 7 psi system your intake manifold pressure and engine boost pressure is now 5 psi instead of 3 psi (7-4=3 vs 7-2=5) very simple math

Whtsr240

You apparently did not even read the article I posted because it explained it all. You even said your self that you take the reading from the coldside right before the intake manifold. This is the source that goes to the wastegate as well as your boost controller so you get the most accurate boost reading. IF you take the reading right from the compressor housing you will get a false reading because you are not compensating for the pressure drop. And you are wrong your turbo only produces enough boost according to what ever your waste gate is set up to. Hence if you have a ZERO PSI DROP through an interclooer both the hot side and cold side will see the same PSI. but this is impossible because no intercooler can achieve this. So have you stock intercooler and has a 3 psi drop. (this means that the ot side will be higer then the cool side) You have a 7 psi waste gate. You take your reading from the coldside right before it enter the motor so you get the most accurate reading. This means that the turbo will produce 10 PSI on the hot side there for compensating for the 3 psi drop so you still receive 7PSI into the motor.

Now say you go to a FMIC that has a pressure drop of 1 PSI. You turbo will produce 8 PSI on the hot side to compensate for the 1 PSI drop so your motor and wastegate still see 7 PSI.

READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STOCK BOOST PRESSURE LOSS:

Another important factor when evaluating an intercooler is the total pressure drop. What this means is, if you’re running 14psi as indicated by your boost gauge that means the turbos are actually producing something closer to 17psi. This pressure loss is a natural byproduct of flowing air, and the loss will grow as boost pressure increases on any given intercooler core. The trick is designing an intercooler core that is properly sized for the intended application in order to minimize this pressure loss.

Pressure drop essentially comes from two main factors: Internal flow area, and velocity. Regardless of which process is responsible, this pressure drop is a byproduct of a loss of kinetic energy. Airflow loses kinetic energy after sharp bends, or whenever there is a resistance to its forward motion. So things like rough surfaces, physical obstructions, or quick changes in direction can sap energy from the airflow. If an intercooler had zero kinetic energy loss, then the pressure on the inlet, and the outlet of the core would read exactly the same value. Reducing the pressure drop across the core is important because the lower the pressure drop, the less the turbos have to work to hit their intended boost target as measured after the intercooler.

Internal area affects pressure drop because as area increases, so does the available contact surface for the airflow. As discussed above, this puts the flowing air in intimate contact with more intercooler, which removes energy from the air. Air likes to attach itself to walls (or really anything that it’s flowing relative to) and this is called the boundary layer. The boundary layer is a theoretical point of zero velocity, and represents a flow loss to the air passing adjacent to it. When the total surface area of the boundary layer grows, energy is removed from the air, and the total pressure loss grows as well. So, this is just one reason why “bigger” isn't always “better”!

On the other hand, increasing the size of an intercooler can also reduce the resulting pressure drop. The velocity of the air passing through the inside of the core is a function of the volume of air flowing and the passage cross-sectional area, and fluid friction is a function of velocity. So, if the cross sectional area increases and airflow velocity drops; then so does the friction generated and the resulting pressure drop. So there's definitely a balancing act one has to play when sizing an intercooler core for a specific application. If the internal cross-sectional area of an intercooler is fixed, then increasing the airflow (by turning up boost, or revving higher for instance) will increase velocity, which increases the associated pressure drop. Let’s look at some charts to see how this actually holds in practice.

BMW N54 Front Mount Intercooler Test Efficiency FMIC Engine Horsepower Torque Boost

The chart above is illustrating the difference in pressure between the inlet, and outlet of the stock intercooler. So this is the total pressure drop across the intercooler core. If the intercooler had no pressure drop at all (which is physically impossible), then both the inlet and outlet pressure sensors would read the same value, and the chart would indicate “0psi” everywhere. However, this is reality, and as such they’re measuring a pressure loss across the core. So for instance, if the graph indicates “3psi” in some region, and the boost gauge in your car is indicating “12psi” at that same point in time, this means that your turbos are actually producing 15psi before the air enters the intercooler. So your turbos are compressing an extra 3psi of boost that your engine never even sees.

justinbyrant

in other news, if you want a good boost controller save some money and get yourself a apexi avcr they are pretty fantastic, I bought one a while back and I don't think I will ever use a different one, the boost is predictable, constant, and the scramble boost and duty cycle settings are extremely useful, I don't know how many other ebcs or if any others do it but the avcr has a boost sensor that you run off the manifold itself as well as pulling the boost feed signal from the hot side, the unit will self learn based on boost pressure, throttle position, and rpm, and it will set the active duty cycle accordingly to smooth out boost spikes and create a constant boost pressure, its really just a all around good setup

justinbyrant

I read your posted link, it only addresses intercooler design, the thing it leaves out is the reason why you don't pull your wastegate source from your cold side, boost spikes, running your wastegate feed that far away in terms of piping and hoses creates spikes, the time it takes for the pressure to build after all the hot piping and the intercooler creates pressure spikes in the engine that can and often times are destructive, pulling from the hot side is the most reliable, least complicated, and provides the fastest response

there is literally no reason to pull from the intake side if hes going to be running a boost controller anyways, the boost controller will allow him to set whatever boost he wants by reading it from his boost gauge attached to the intake manifold and adjusting accordingly, the only single reason to swap from running your wastegate feed from the hot pipe to the cold pipe on any car would be a completely bone stock turbo car your trying to squeeze a few extra psi out of and if your doing that by risking boost spikes and other issues you might as well go buy your grandmas civic and stop trying to blow up engines

Whtsr240

You are Wrong even NISSAN did this.. Look as the FSM it shows you that the wastgate gets its source from the Cold side and then the boost solenoid gets one from the hot side. For us here in the US most don't have the boost solenoid that came with the cars. So you run it from the cold side so you get the most accurate reading of what boost is going to your motor and so that you waste gate and turbo produce the correct amount. I attached the FSM so you can see it for your self. So what you are saying is that Nissan the people who developed the car are wrong.

Attached Images

VAC SR20DET.png (109.6 KB, 7 views)

dbeiler

My RB25 came stock with the wastegate line running to the intake manifold. That's how it's still routed. To the cold side. Through my PERRIN mbc which somehow still has not blown my engine. I bought it strictly because it was guaranteed to blow my engine.

All the modern day turbocharged cars I work on, have the wastegate line running to the cold side, right on the intake manifold.

It's a fairly controversial subject; where to route the wastegate lines. You'll be perfectly fine either way. Literally any mbc works well.

justinbyrant

Are you dumb or just really good at playing dumb? The fsm link you posted quite clearly shows a boost pressure solenoid as well as a wastegate valve control solenoid that work in conjunction with the actual wastegate actuator, in case you really are so stupid you cant follow what that means i will spell it out word for word, that means that they can run the feed from literally where ever they want becayse those valves and controls act as a non adjustable ebc like my avcr it allows the ecu to smooth out boost spikes by reading pressure in the piping as well as in the manifold and you can clearly see the wastegate valve actuator teed in with the wastegate valve control solenoid and running to the hotpipe right after the turbo, in case you have never seen a stock sidemount sr that pirt is directly under the hotpipe upside down, do some google searches on stock sr wastegate routing

AND IM GONNA SAY IT AGAIN there is literally no reason to run the feed source from the cold side if your running a boost controller and multiple reasons not to, plus the fact that a stock sr uses the ecu to control boost (to an extent) mbcs are set and forget no adapting no on the fly change

You wanna try again? This is fun

justinbyrant

I challenge any one of you to find me any factory turbo car that runs only a wastegate no control valves at all from the cold side of the piping, there arent many cars that dont have control solenoids but if all the ones that run wastegate only its always always always hot pipe tobwastegate

Of all the turbo cars i have ever worked on i have yet to this day to come across a car running a mbc from the cold pipe that didnt have at least a 3 psi boost spike at least once while driving

dbeiler

RB25. Literally 2 posts up. No boost spikes.

Whtsr240

WO you must be super dense and cant read a dirgram. IT CLEARLY SHOWS That one line goes to the intake pipe that connect to the intake manifold. from their if you follow it back goes into a T one part goes to the wastegate its self and the other goes to the wastegate control valve. form their it gets T again and one part goes to the hot side of the turbo system and the other back to the intake manifold. Of course you wont find a STOCK car that doesn't do this. We aren't talking about stock cars here. so if you take out the control valve the line would go from the coldside straight to the wastegate LOOK AT THE DAMN PICTURE zoom in if you are to blind to see it

Whtsr240

I WILL SHOW YOU MY DYNO GRAPH AND BOOST GRAPH when I get home form work. shows no boost spike at all just to prove you wrong

justinbyrant

it looks to me like its coming off the hot side, either way your graph means nothing, I have swapped many a sr20 into many a 240 and the wastegate line always, always comes off the hot pipe, again, there is literally no upside to running a hose all the way across the engine if your running a boost controller, plenty of downsides however, how do non of you get that? even if there were no actual performance issues with running the hose from the cold side your still just allowing for the possibility of something to go wrong, get unhooked, burn, break..... by running the hose all the way across the engine bay, the boost can be set to whatever you want no matter where the boost controller feeds from so there is no upside to running a cold side feed

givemeshred-s13-sr20det-vaccum-lines-02-300x225.jpg

Whtsr240

We'll my graph proves you wrong. My wastegate line come from right before the throttle body. The dyno we done in march of this year. It has been about five months with me taking it to the track and daily driving it in 100+ degree weather. And still no issues no boost spikes nothing. The plus side of running it from the cold side is your wastegate gets and actual reading of boost pressure that is going into your motor. Do you not get that.by having hooked up to your hot side of you produce 7psi on the hot side then you have a 3 psi drop from your intercooler your motor only gets 4psi of pressure (if your not running a boost controller) do you not get it? And if ok can't see that the Nissan fsm showed this then your just dense

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justinbyrant

I understand pressure drop and that the wastegate sees less pressure if its attached to the hot side however THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, we are not talking about a car that does not have a boost controller, that has not been a topic of this discussion AT ALL we are talking about boost controllers, and with a boost controller it doesn't matter if a hot side sees 7 psi and the cold side sees 4 psi, your boost gauge is hooked up to the cold side so your seeing 4 psi on the boost gauge so you turn the boost gauge up until the hot side sees 10 psi and the cold side sees 7 psi, which means...... tada no upside at all to running the feed from the cold side and in doing so you clutter the engine bay just a tiny bit more, run the risk of burning the hose, getting the hose caught somewhere, accidentally pinching it, etc etc etc its much much much easier and reliable to run it right off the hot pipe to the boost controller then to the wastegate, running it from the cold side is like running your brake light wiring through the front fenders and front bumper then all the way down the side of a car to the tail lights just because you can