Agamemnon

The world already gets GM cars without the use of exportation. Ford and GM have euro/asian models that surpass what we get here.

It's not that they dont want an American car, it's that they dont want an American made car.

ronmcdon

I think GM does ok in china and europe. China could be the biggest market in the future, it's relatively lax on regulations, and I think that's where it would count the most. They've even invested quite some in some of the Chinese car manufacturers themselves, buying lots of stock in Wulin, and/or having joint ownership of auto factories with some of the Chinese manufacturers. I think even some of the Buicks are built in China. I'm suprised that they haven't outsourced more of their manufacturing, given they have the resources, experience, and know-how.

The markets abroad are usually more limited. You might get Buick, Cadillac, Chevy (or the Vauxhaul equivalent), and maybe Saab. You don't get stuff like Pontiac, Saturn, GMC, etc, which makes sense because it's a bit redundant. You also get more use of conventional turbo-diesels in asia and europe, because they don't have crap like CARB and other absurd emissions regulations that we have in the US, or the whole CAFE thing.

I actually think GM would do okay, if they scaled back their operations in the US to the level they have in asia and europe.

exitspeed

In fact Buick is China's best selling brand.

YouTube - The U.S. Auto Industry and the Ripple Effect

I'm sorry, but I just can't comprehend an argument about letting them burn.

People think things are bad now...The depression will look like a high point in history. It'll be so awesome when people are killing themselves left and right. So awesome.

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TheWolf

Listen. I don't want to see them die but I refuse to let my tax dollars go to pay for some old GM retiree to get his ass wiped because he negotiated the best benefits package ever. $30/HR + benefits regardless of factory open or closed??!?! No. Enough is enough. Putting a GM car together ain't any harder than putting a hamburger together and the pay should reflect that. Unions are what is wrong with the country. You're there to do a job. How putting seats into a malibu between 8-5 equals GM should give you free health care till you die and give you retirement? That's socialist bullshit. You work on an assembly line!! A career assembly line worker is just that. It's like career janitor. At the end of 30 years, it's still same shit different day. Why should anyone reward your mediocrity? Stuff it. They should have been taking that creampuff gravey train pay and saving it instead of spending it on crap.

I hope GM says listen we're building cars for $13 an hour. Anyone who wants to work in an air conditioned factory for that all day then come on. We can train you in 2 days. Whether your union or not but this is what we're paying. Anyone who doesn't want that can go home. It's time those guys got a reality check.

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sileighty83

forget the bailout thats there fault for making crappy cars.. Japanese cars will always be better its just a fact. You can tell by the craftsmenship done to "J" cars v.s. US cars. US dosn't take things into consideration...Im not going to go into that but its true. This country has spent enough already.

I also saw a documentary on the us car market a while back and it said, that when Toyota came and visited Ford (at the start of ford motors) they carefully observed how ford made cars and worked and then applied there own techniques as well as improving on the way they created cars thus it made them a better car company then Ford back then as well.

ryguy

Quoted for truth. Unions were a good idea before United States labor laws. They serve no significant purpose today except to fuck things up.


You obviously have not been in a General Motors vehicle in the past few years. I would take a Malibu over a Camry for interior quality any day of the week. The Camry I drove recently reminded me of "Grandpa's old Buick".

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ronmcdon

I don't agree that they should go completely under either, but I do think given the nature of their problem and circumstances, (expensive union overhead, and dirt cheap stock prices that can't go much lower), it's in their best interest to file for chapter 11 first, dissolve their the union obligations, or any other existing contracts (vendors, customers, etc) that might be unprofitable for them, and start over. The actual bailout would consist of buying their stocks at dirt cheap afterwards, instead of some loan they might never be capable of paying back at all. Another option, as I mentioned before, is that if the price is right, someone might just gobble up gm without having the taxpayer spend a penny.

I think that would be much much more constructive in the long run, than tossing them 50 billion or whatever each year. I mean, we've given them money without strings attached before, and what became of that $$$. It didn't work in the past, and I see no support why it would work now. If we bail them out now, the way it is, they'll just come back asking for more a year or less down the road.

40daws

GM pays roughly $71.00 hour including benefits per labor hour. Toyota $47.00 .
This is from NEWSWEEK. Time for some paycuts.

sileighty83

I have been in one, and I don't like them thats my... opinion. I think the designs are shit and the interior is crap IMO!

I was in one when I had to get a rental car because someone hit my 240sx. I traded it back in, in exchange ironically for a Camry...which I liked.

Matej

If a company is evaluated as "too big to fail," then in my opinion there should be some kind of laws and practices set in place to help prevent mismanagement of these companies, and mainly to prevent situations like this from happening.

ryguy

You must be talking about a late model Malibu. You can't be talking about this gorgeous piece of engineering.



I just don't understand how the labor unions can live with themselves. They're setting up their own demise, how can they not know that?

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SimpleS14

A loan.

Medical industry.

I agreed...but you know the media will blow it out of proportion.

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sileighty83

^I must admit that it is a cool looking interior but man... my opinion still stands...thats just me I guess, just never been partial to American designs, although it looks like chevy is steppin their game up lol

RJF

This explains alot.

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exitspeed

It's no use. No matter how good a car GM makes (CTS/CTS-V, Malibu, Vette, G8) some people will not buy them just because they are domestic.

Being so narrow minded takes a lot of practice and our country is pros.

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Phlip

You know, the points presented in this thread, in addition to what I have read around, have kinda swayed my opinion... I mean, I see where it is by their own fucking designs that they have failed. I also see that what they seek is a loan so they can CONTINUE to do the shit, as if it is the right thing to do and their failure is some kind of anomaly. The fact, though, is that a loan in this case would be more burden on us the taxpayers, to delay the inevitable, thusly shifting the ultimate REAL crash to be shouldered in total by our kids and/or grandkids later.
I am still not stepping all the way off of my original position, though...
Bail them out, but FORCE THEM, WITH A CONTRACT to shape up or fuck off. Limiting the amount of this money that sees the big mens' pockets, MAKE them present a model that shows them actually progressing, instead of continuing like a bunch of lumbering fucking idiots, and a real plan on what to do with the unions in order to make the situation workable from all angles, EVEN IF IT MEANS PAYCUTS ALL THE WAY DOWN THE LINE. I mean, yes, the unions can bitch and moan about money for their employees, but the fact remains that CUT pay is better than unemployment benefits, and DAMN sure better than NO pay at all.

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drift freaq

Ok guys, Can the U.S. Automakers make cars that U.S. citizens want to buy? Yes they can. What lies at the problem of this whole thing? Two things and two things only, both of which have been touched upon in this thread.
Management and labor, now the funniest thing is, you have Waggoner and the likes testifying before congress right now asking for all kinds of money. At the same time, Nardelli just testified and said Cerebus aka Chrysler would restrict executive pay and bonuses. What is the crack up is the Unions are doing and saying nothing about making concessions.
This is bullshit. Its not some of you tighten your belt, its all of you tighten your belt. Its like you don't seem to understand, if GM fails whats going to happen to those workers, no job!
Wow, you don't make concessions and drive the company out of business.
Yes Management is fucked. Waggoner is a idiot. Nardelli should not be running Chrysler. The guy at Ford seems to have more of a clue but is still jumping into the same boat.


damn phlip, you just posted pretty much the same thing I did in different words. LOL

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Phlip

I hate to sound this sometimes, but it came down to a "need vs deserve" thing, with a different twist to me...

Sure, a bailout is very necessary, but if EVERYONE down the lines; up to and including execs and union folks don't concede that they MUST give something into making this shit work and changing their model to one that doesn't just consume the money and drive it all back down to shit AGAIN, then they DO NOT FUCKING DESERVE IT. Fuck 'em, and anyone that looks like 'em. If THEY would let THEIR employees lives be ruined in that manner, then someone should tar, feather and string them up.

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Matej

Same reason why some people will never buy imports.

I noticed GM vehicles lose half their value pretty much as soon as they leave the lot. You can seriously find last year's Corvettes and CTS's for half the price you would've bought them for new.

Phlip

Chrysler products are (or were, I have not looked lately) worse than that.

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mRclARK1

It's sounding from the news like they won't get bailed out, so I guess we'll just see what happens.

I'm pretty much with PHLIP though. Bail them out, but they need to shape up as well. First step is get costs etc. in line and abolish the fucking unions. They serve no purpose now. Maybe allow unions to remain, but at least keep them in line. $30+ an hour to do work literally ANYONE can do? That's part of the problem. Money thrown into wages that are not deserved or earned.

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GSXRJJordan

You know, I was going to post a bunch in this thread after spending the last couple mornings looking over 'current events'...

... and then Phlip and Dave beat me to it. I was originally for it, but ripples be damned, they need to dissolve the UAW before we can give them any money - even then once you start giving government money to private companies, that's not just socialism...

That's National Socialism. Anyone remember that silly 4-letter word for National Socialism we used to have?

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S14DB

These were the same douche's that said they couldn't meet CAFE MPG standards cause people wanted SUV's and Trucks. That they knew the Market and Congress to butt out. Now they want Congress's help? Those CEO's better bend over and grab the lube...


Chevy Volt: Could GM Kill the Electric Car...Again? - U.S. News Rankings and Reviews
Senator calls for 50-mpg mandate for Detroit to receive aid - Autoblog
Senator rips auto industry at bailout hearing - Nov. 18, 2008
Helicopter Association International - Rotor.com

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Phlip

Jeff, can we PLEASE leave Godwin's law out of this one?

PLEEEEEEASE?

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SexPanda

QFT.

50MPG? The technology is there. Its relatively cheap, and honestly: drop the trucks and suv's and what not. Well, dont drop them, but damn, if they're not selling, cut back production.... alot.

They did this to themselves. I read somewhere... Maybe on here, that while GM was putting a billion dollars into the Hummer line, Toyota was putting a billion dollars into making the Prius. You can clearly see who had the foresight.

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Matej

The "Big Three" have actually been trying to do something about the unions. They saw how much of their spendings were going towards unions, versus automakers building cars in other countries, and they knew they wouldn't be able to keep up for long.

Unions are one of the main reasons why domestic automakers have been outsourcing jobs. It's a two way street when there are cries to support the American worker. If it's a union worker, in essence he or she only hurts America and its workers in the long run.

There have even been White House meetings on this matter, calling for reform of unions, but it seems that nothing has been done about it, and now it's too late.

GSXRJJordan

Haha, I didn't think about it in this case (because the term actually applies), but that is funny.

Seriously though, as a young person (in a community of mostly young people), how do we feel about moving closer and closer to the socialism we've tried so hard as a nation to fight? I don't like Canada because it's cold and they have 40%+ taxes... I don't like Europe because they don't speak English and have 40%+ taxes... etc.

I think I have to side with Ron Paul on this one... we could suffer for a year and have a solid base to rebuild, or we could socialize everything and suffer for the next 20.

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mRclARK1

I kinda wish I'd taken bets on the whole SUV deal... I said the bottom was gonna fall outta that shit. Everyone kept telling me that SUV's would be all we'd see on the road in 15 years. lolz. I can't believe with all the historical failures of socialism, people are still willing to entertain the idea of it.

Canada's not that cold once you get used to it. haha

The taxes are another story...

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mRclARK1

Some CEO here just got a "compensation" package of 320 million.

I wouldn't even WANT that much money and assets.

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