RJF

Should the Federal Government bailout the three US automakers?

Opinions?

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s13dan

no, they should not have banked on the SUV/pick-up market and started thinking about economy cars years ago. Its common knowledge that the Large cars truck and SUV are not near as popular anymore. They cost to much initially and in the cost of gas. BUT i feel bad becuase many hard working people that deserve better will get screwed. I say Fire some CEO's and take there yearly wages and BONUSES, and give that as severance for anyone that gets caned.

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slidingsky

^ That's like saying that the credit market shouldn't have given out money to people who didn't deserve it. The banks should have thought about the repercussions from that as well.

RiversideS13

they should because it is going to impact alot of people's life, but they should replace all of the board of directors and CEO who would make better decisions.

For example, Ford Focus are so much nicer in asia and europe. they also got a version with 4WD turbo and 6 speed. WHY would they do that?
http://www.ford.com.tw/servlet/Conte...Page&c=DFYPage
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=108108

CrimsonRockett

If they're not bailed out, it'll cost millions of jobs.

If they are, it's wrong as well.

Definitely a tough decision.

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Phlip

While I would want to be inclined to agree, I am going to have to in this case. When Japan brought in smaller and more efficient cars, they were basically laughed off, then conformed with the vans and trucks and shit themselves. The industry is consumer driven, you sell what people buy, and to let them die for doing what they were EXPECTED to do is irresponsible, spiteful and shortsighted...
The bailout is necessary because of the number of jobs that it would IMMEDIATELY cut if they go under, and the many many more that would be lost as a result of THOSE people losing their jobs, think tools and IT products and such... Fuck, even paper and bathroom supplies, odd as it may seem.
As much as I hate to see money flushed into something that COULD have gone down differently, I am but without choice but to say yes to the automotive industry bailout.
-HOWEVER-
It should come with some language to bring jobs home, and to affordably produce more efficient, but still practical products as well... Don't just give them a blank fucking check to go on doing the same shit again.


... I'll finish eating my lunch now.

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DMaxUSA

If the Government bails out the U.S. automakers, do you think they would do the same for Toyota if they got into trouble?? Toyota has brought tons of jobs into America (Of course not as much as the U.S. automakers, but still.....)

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exitspeed

Yes the fucked up in the past. But you have to understand and what cost not bailing them out will have on the entire world.

If the Gov lets GM ALONE crumble Ww are talking 2.5-3 MILLION people loosing their jobs. Not including all the jobs/companies that depend on the millions of employees that those people support in the communities across the country. That would be catastrophic to our economy. It would surely send our country into a depression worse then the great Depression.

I feel like I'm saying this a lot, but you can't cut off your nose to spite your face.

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slidingsky

Maybe the US sector of Toyota but that is very unlikely to happen.

Agamemnon

Let'em go bankrupt, then have the union contracts voided, then bail'em out. Can that happen? The labor costs are what's burying the big 3.GM's quality is on the rise and they've been pumping out some nice cars for a few years, so there is a solid future for them in time. People just have to trust GM again.

It'll be interesting to see if Ford can reignite interest with their euro models coming to the US.

seesquared

i agree with PHLIP. If in fact, they do bail out the auto industry, or the banks, or any industry, it should come with some strict regulations

Im not opposed to paying some taxes to help the country out, but at least but the money to good use.

drift freaq

Wow Phlip, now I don't have to post! Basically I agree 100% with your post and reasons. Only thing I will add is emphasis on the requirement for them to make fuel efficient smaller cars and not focus on gas guzzling SUV behemoths.

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s13dan

My real problem is when does the bailing out stop??? We keep bailing out corperations so people dont lose their jobs, which is fine, thats good. But some people DO need to lose their jobs...Higher ups that will not be effected by the bail outs are who we need to look at. The guys that decided what to try and sell and how many to produce. Besides who do you think pays the bailouts? The people that woulda lost there jobs, so either way the get screwed because of bad decesions someone else made.

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derux

Even if they do get bailed out are any of you going to buy the US cars are keep supporting the japanese cars. We are the ones losing by not buying american.

HyperTek

so this would affect people in detroit? from my understanding, that area already is pretty rough, would be crazier.

Tough call i agree with crimson.

Id buy an american car but nothing really grabs me.. (no affordible sports coupes, everything is a v6 or v8 pony car) need to step up the quality and get rid of the "bigger is better" motive. Who the hell needs a F-450?? lol

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Phlip

Not just in Detroit...
Think of GM (Chevy, GMC, Cadillac, Pontiac and Buick), Chrysler (Dodge, Plymouth, Jeep) and FoMoCo (Ford, Lincoln, Mercury) dealerships, and all the people that they employ, from salespeople, to parts clerks, to couriers, to greeters and even fucking janitors.

Think of GMAC and if Ford and Chrysler have similar.
Think of the sheer number of COMPUTERS these people have to sit in front of and all the networks that need to be maintained, by means of hardware and software. This is not only nationwide, but WORLDWIDE, TENS OF MILLIONS of people.

Yes, even computer and IT companies may wind up having to cut jobs when their (naturally) largest customer in terms of sheer volume goes to shit.

Look at it like this... Do you want your tax money to go toward keeping them in a job, in which they will shoulder SOME of that load with you, or do you want your tax dollars to go towards supporting them in the time they are without a job and cannot get one because their company COULD have been saved, but weren't.

Oh, and what would happen to ALL of the warranty services?

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Agamemnon

Not only that, but think about the resale values of the cars. They would be worthless.

shinhed

No, this is the 240sx forum:wink:

But seriously, I coulda swore that at least GM was turning things around with Saturn's all new lineup including the Sky and Aura; Pontiac and it's new sports sedans and Solstice; Chevy and it's sporty Cobalt (<--not a bad car at all), Camaro hype, Vette flagship and Volt; Caddy's excellent sedans; Buick and...it's...uhh...

Anyway, I'm really hoping they pull through.

Phlip

Yeah, that too.
In such, used car dealers and sales are similarly crippled, thusly hammering some small business owners, and even some larger ones, like Carmax and such.

The trickle down of NOT doing this would be FILTHY ugly.

All I beg is that some language be included with mind on this shit not repeating itself.

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Brian

Too many people are getting handouts these days it would seem.

Auto company... you failed! Oh, we'll help you though.
Poor people... you failed! Oh, we'll give you other people's money though even though you don't do S.
Home owners who bought a house they could never afford... you failed. Oh, we'll help you a little bit though.

If you mess up. DEAL WITH IT.

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HyperTek

some of those people will have a hard time picking up another job.. since building cars on a assembly lot might be the only experience they have to fall back on..

But if those american manufacturers fall out.. Import companies could swoop it back up, demand/sales would increase on them thus possibly requiring to open up plants and supplying those same jobs back

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Phlip

You, sir, are wrong... No need to wade through all the sense I made in those posts up there, just go here:
Now, I will predict that you WOULD likely say "well, neither!" in response to that, but that leaves us with an even UGLIER specter, and that includes you getting knocked over your fucking head and mugged for whatever you may have in your pockets, or perhaps your groceries taken at knifepoint in the parking lot at the store, maybe even your house robbed for it.
The fact here is that one way or another, it's gonna have to happen. The most painless way to it as it relates to the viable options is the bailout. The immediate, or even gradual (over the course of a few months to a couple of years), but still SHARP increase of joblessness will turn the US in a fucking third world country, speaking in terms of increased crime alone.

Anyone who would sooner say "well I wouldn't want to help anyone, why can't EVERYONE be lucky?" than to take a moment to see the HUGE downside of NOT doing this is a goddamned nihilist and should probably be taken out back and put out of all of our miseries.

I agree with that first point.
... but the second, not so much.

Comparing the cost of labor and materials stateside, they would NEED tax cuts to make it happen, something we can honestly ill afford as it is. It'd be kinda like trading venereal diseases; "I got rid of syphillis, now I got gonorrhea!!!" I would sooner want to see dealing with the devil I know than bringing in another.
Not to mention that one could ask Hoover, Reagan and Bush43 and see that TAX CUTS CAUSE CRASHES!!! (yes, that is a link, click it).
I also couldn't see how foreign automakers would bring THAT many jobs in to make them a "replacement" for the failed US automakers.

Again, I hate to see good money flushed into shit, and this on the whole seems to be wasteful spending, but this is unfortunately a very necessary evil.

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dynamicck

Hell no they shouldn't bail out the auto industry.
WHY?
Because the BIG 3 (GM, Ford, Daimler) chased short term profits like SUV/Truck sales. They made more profit on bigger cars, than smaller cars. So instead of being competitive, they went after short term profits.

They didnt use their short term profits to R&D more gas efficient cars. It should be known that producing cheap shit, and chasing short term profits, will make you bankrupt.

The result of the mortgage industry was from the government being involved when they should not have been. They tried to increase the amount of homeowners, lowered interest rates, and reduced restrictions.
During the Clinton administration, they pushed for more home ownership. Problem is with that, not everyone can afford a home.... simple supply and demand theory.

Brian

Philip - I don't think we SHOULD bail them out, but I think we HAVE TO.
big difference.
Our country NEEDS them, so we're going to HAVE TO help out.

I'm tired of people getting handouts...

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sillyvia13

RIGHT!
I think this when I hear dont buy knock offs... and buy jdm, save greddy

what about US A!


I could use a BAILOUT!
I aint Chillin in no RITZ paid for by my peeps! like AIG, and bankers... when I failed at work.. I lost my job... I didnt get a bonus?

I say CLOSE EM DOWN!
Sell the factory and all the shit inside and give money to fund HOMES for the workers...

WE THE PEOPLE NEED TO TEAM UP WITH PEOPLE NOT MONEY (aka waste 40 hours aweek for fucking $$$$) if you spent 40 hours a week on your life and trying to better your family directly instead of wasting tax money on war we'd be fine...

Its so sad...

BAILOUT MY ASS!!!!!!!
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! we live in MOBB times and get hustled by fucking nerdy white guys who if you farted next to them they'd crumble.... PISSES ME OFF!

end rant.

SHIFT_*grind*

............what?

So, you would prefer social breakdown and anarchy?

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ronmcdon

I don't agree with a government bailout. as someone else said, let them go bankrupt. dissolve the union agreements, & cut overhead accordingly. No government bailout, does NOT equate to letting GM go belly up. I'm fairly certain that at the right price, someone will buy GM and replace their management accordingly.

Also union costs is one thing, but executives and management should also be axed if they're not performing. A bankrupcy and subsequent merger, should take care of this.

Cerebus bought Chrysler under not entirely different circumstances, and that seems to have worked out ok so far. I was hoping Cerebus would have the capital and know how to purchase GM and integrate the two. I actually like Cerebus' approach to managing Chrysler. Cut back unnecessary programs/factories/projects than aren't profitable. The same could be applied to GM.

We could continue to give another 25 billion (already gave that earlier this year), but I think that's just postponing their inevitable failure as company, at least under the current management. Where do you draw the line of when to stop, or should taxpayers act as the perpetual ATM for auto manufacturers?

I also don't buy the argument that GM shouldn't be held accountable for the troubles of the credit crunch & bad economy, etc. Everyone's taking a hit, but not every company is asking for a handout.

mRclARK1

I agree with PHLIP basically.

However an improvement could be made in brining the unions under control. Some of the shit they pull and demand is just ridiculous... It's nearly impossible to fire someone for even the worst of complete incomptent fuck ups these days. Union says you can't.

Not saying they should be abolished, but they're getting seriously out of hand.

IE: A friend of mine here CANNOT fire an employee who (with zero welding training) took a welder and tac welded some access panels shut, rather than just putting some screws back in... Cause he "lost" them. He can't be fired though because it's only his SECOND reprimand in that "area". Three are required for a "termination"

His tac welding stupidity cost nearly a days worth of work to be lost at the facility, and an important function being held there had to be canceled, due to equipment that needed to be serviced could not be accessed by the repairmen when he was available for the job.

He also makes $20+ an hr. for a zero qualification job. Highly unionized out of control labor force usually = High wages for low skill work and manufacturing standards often fall as a result. Why do you think a lot of American cars sucked in their quality so bad for a long time. Many still do...

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sillyvia13

Maybe... This ain't working... its CORRUPT TO THE FUCKING CORE!

I dont wish harm on anyone.. I am a hopeful person...But things will not ever get any better with this system.

If you research names of people in the Govt and look at what these bailouts do you'd be pissed.

Bush got 1 billion on the last one... no if and or buts... no ?? asked
Read into this bailouts...


I guess I have NEVER FUCKING ONCE be rewarded for failure, well besides the PRICELESS lesson a failure teaches you! but never once have I fucked up at work and got a bonu$... the world dont work like that well at least mine...

I am sick of hand outs..til I get one.. ya dig...
BUT YO!!!!!

CHANGE WILL COME!!!!!!!!

s13dan

Greed runs this country and has for well over 100 years... This is what we have to show for it. Problems with no easy awners. There is no correct way to fix this now. Its IMPOSSIBLE to not have a downside. Think about it. I suppose its not really the auto makers faults, they didnt know the economy would snap like this... This is just going to show how much we really care about each other as americans, will we help one another? Or as said above be getting robbed by the people that need essentials for living.At this piont in my life im not proud to say im an american, i hope to see that if things get worse we can pull together and come out on top, a better country, then ill say im proud to be american and proud of what we stand for.

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