ARGH -- Final drive swappin' - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

**mrmephistopheles** · 09-13-2008, 04:59 AM

Looking to *finally* swap my 3.692 final drive and HLSD into my S13 diff.
So far everything is sweet, but I've snagged on the following part -

The pinion bearing sizes between the S15 pinion and the S13 pinion are drastically different - I'm wondering if I need to move the S13 bearing over, or if I can just tap the race out of the S13 diff and slide the S15 pinion in (Yes, I realize how stupid this sounds).

Please let me know what you think, as long as you have a modicum of experience in working with diffs/rings/pinions.
If I have to move the S13 bearing over, any suggestions on what kind of press setup I'll need? Great big drift or something?

g6civcx · 09-13-2008, 05:38 AM

Stupid questions out of the way first.

1) Why do you want to use an S13 case?

2) Why can't you use an S15 case?

**mrmephistopheles** · 09-13-2008, 05:50 AM

Not stupid at all.

1. I have a spare S13 case (and I have an S13 to put it into)

2. I don't have an S15 case.

g6civcx · 09-13-2008, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmephistopheles

if I need to move the S13 pinion over

What do you want to do with the S13 pinion?

I assume you mean the drive pinion, which together with the ring gear forms the hypoid gear set.

The ring and pinion must go together as a set. If you looked on the ring, there is usually imprinted the tooth count of both the ring and pinion.

I know people have mixed and matched ring and pinion before, but I would not do that due to the amount of pressure between the teeth. Some ring and pinion will simply not line up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmephistopheles

if I can just tap the race out of the S13 diff and slide the S15 pinion in

You're supposed to use a press. The hardest part will be trying not to damage the front pinion bearing outer race in the process.

As far as the S15 drive pinion fitment into an S13 case, I have no experience with this particular swap so I cannot tell you.

All I can say is that expect some clearance issue with using different drive pinions in an S13 short snout diff housing. You may get lucky and have the S15 line up inside the S13 case, but I would be weary because the 4.0833 ratio uses a really small pinion and Nissan didn't put a bigger snout on the S13 R200.

Assuming the pinion physicall fits into the case, you're trying to put whatever is on the S13 pinion onto the S15 pinion. You will also have to figure out spacer size to set backlash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmephistopheles

If I have to move the S13 bearing over, any suggestions on what kind of press setup I'll need? Great big drift or something?

Ideally, yes you would need a press. Otherwise you risk damaging the bearing. Any reputable shop would be able to do it for you.

You may want to replace the oil seals while you're at it.

mmdb · 09-13-2008, 08:08 AM

I've had experience in this. DO NOT waste your time trying to fit the s15 ring and pinion into the r200 s13/s14 housing. IT WILL NOT FIT. The depth of the s15 pinion will not allow the ring and pinion to mesh correctly. What you want to do is pick up a q45 ring and pinion from a 97-01 (3.69 gear ratio) and have it swapped into your casing. The HLSD will drop in fine after. Good luck!

**mrmephistopheles** · 09-13-2008, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g6civcx

What do you want to do with the S13 pinion?

You're supposed to use a press. The hardest part will be trying not to damage the front pinion bearing outer race in the process.

As far as the S15 drive pinion fitment into an S13 case, I have no experience with this particular swap so I cannot tell you.

All I can say is that expect some clearance issue with using different drive pinions in an S13 short snout diff housing. You may get lucky and have the S15 line up inside the S13 case, but I would be weary because the 4.0833 ratio uses a really small pinion and Nissan didn't put a bigger snout on the S13 R200.

Assuming the pinion physicall fits into the case, you're trying to put whatever is on the S13 pinion onto the S15 pinion. You will also have to figure out spacer size to set backlash.

Ideally, yes you would need a press. Otherwise you risk damaging the bearing. Any reputable shop would be able to do it for you.

You may want to replace the oil seals while you're at it.

Argh. That was supposed to be S13 bearing, not pinion.

I'm not looking to mix & match rings & pinions. I have a matching 3.692 set that's going in.

The S13 and S15 pinions are the same length, but the gear is sized differently as well as the bearing.

I have a feeling that I'd need the race from the inside of the S15 diff to use the S15 pinion bearing. I think using the S13 pinion bearing on the S15 pinion would work, but I think I'll look into ordering an S15 pinion bearing race just to make life a little easier.

g6civcx · 09-13-2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmdb

I've had experience in this. DO NOT waste your time trying to fit the s15 ring and pinion into the r200 s13/s14 housing. IT WILL NOT FIT. The depth of the s15 pinion will not allow the ring and pinion to mesh correctly. What you want to do is pick up a q45 ring and pinion from a 97-01 (3.69 gear ratio) and have it swapped into your casing. The HLSD will drop in fine after. Good luck!

There you have it. I can't verify this but based on my experience it's really hard to fit r&p into an S-chassis R200.

g6civcx · 09-13-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g6civcx

There you have it. I can't verify this but based on my experience it's really hard to fit r&p into an S-chassis R200.

Something's wrong with the forum. Can anybody else see my post?

chibo · 09-13-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g6civcx

Something's wrong with the forum. Can anybody else see my post?

.........Yes.

(Feels weird to make this post)

g6civcx · 09-14-2008, 12:16 PM

Thanks.

Was this problem ever resolved?

racepar1 · 09-14-2008, 12:29 PM

You don't want 3.6 gears anyways. Your first gear will only go up to like 5mph. It'll just be stupid low, especially if your car is turbo.

UNISA JECS · 09-14-2008, 12:33 PM

A 3.6 FD will give you more speed per gear when compared to stock 4.08 FD at the expense of acceleration, numerically less FD is better suited for turbo cars.

racepar1 · 09-14-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNISA JECS

A 3.6 FD will give you more speed per gear when compared to stock 4.08 FD, numerically less FD is better suited for turbo cars.

MY bad, apparently I am not actually 100% awake yet. I thought it said 4.6. Does nissan even make a 3.6 gear though? I have never heard of that.

UNISA JECS · 09-14-2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racepar1

MY bad, apparently I am not actually 100% awake yet. I thought it said 4.6. Does nissan even make a 3.6 gear though? I have never heard of that.

They do, well Infinti does in the 97-01 Q45 comes with a 3.692 FD, I have one. There are also other vehicles with this same FD but the pinion would be to long to fit into the short nose r200.

g6civcx · 09-14-2008, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by racepar1

You don't want 3.6 gears anyways. Your first gear will only go up to like 5mph. It'll just be stupid low, especially if your car is turbo.

*reads post*.... *goes make coffee*

Quote:

Originally Posted by racepar1

Does nissan even make a 3.6 gear?

Apparently the S15 FSM lists the R200H as 3.692. This ratio is available in the Q45 R200V.

For semantics, the closest R200 r&p set available in a production Nissan (Infiniti excluded) in the US would be the Z33 with 3.538. 3.6 r&p are also available in other Nissan models that use a larger ring gear than 200.

UNISA JECS · 09-14-2008, 01:03 PM

After you swap a 3.692 your speedo will be off, so you'll need to source teh correct speedo pinion, heres a pic:

Pics:

17t = black
18t = blue

g6civcx · 09-14-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNISA JECS

After you swap a 3.692 your speedo will be off, so you'll need to source teh correct speedo pinion

An alternative would be to use an aftermarket speedo with programmable VSS rate.

Or GPS speedo.

UNISA JECS · 09-14-2008, 01:52 PM

Those pinion gears are $25 each so its probably a lil cheaper granted a lil trial an error is needed to get the correct speedo reading. But you can look threw the FSM to get the rolling diameter of the car (3.692 equiped) each speedo pinion was attached to and compare that against your rolling diameter.

g6civcx · 09-14-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNISA JECS

Those pinion gears are $25 each so its probably a lil cheaper granted a lil trial an error is needed to get the correct speedo reading.

Granted that the stock speedo is not very accurate so the indicated speed is nothing more than an estimate.

I use a GPS speedo with customizable propeller shaft sensor as backup when the vehicle does not have a good satellite signal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNISA JECS

But you can look threw the FSM to get the rolling diameter of the car (3.692 equiped) each speedo pinion was attached to and compare that against your rolling diameter.

For each propeller shaft revolution, the final drive ratio reduces the propeller shaft speed to wheel speed.

For a stock 4.083, the propeller shaft turns 4.083 turns for each time the wheel turns 1 revolution.

For 3.692, the propeller shaft turns 3.692 turns for each time the wheel turns 1 revolution.

With a numerically lower (taller) final drive, the propeller shaft has to turn a lower speed to achieve the same wheel speed = lower engine RPM required to achieve a particular speed.

The rolling radius determines how far the vehicle travels per wheel revolution. Bigger tyres = bigger radius = more distance traveled per wheel revolution. Vice versa for smaller tyre.

Compare a big truck to a mini tyre and you get the idea.

Unfortunately VSS specs are not clearly published. You have to look at the speedo itself to determine the pulse rate based on the factory final drive and rolling radius. Then compare to your final drive and rolling radius.

There are minor adjustments you can make to the back of the speedo but the range is not great.

chibo · 09-14-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g6civcx

An alternative would be to use an aftermarket speedo with programmable VSS rate.

Or GPS speedo.

When I went with bigger tires / regear on my Land Cruiser I bought something called a 'Yellowbox'. It sat inline of the VSS wire and allowed you to correct in like .5% increments. Really nice piece for $100, in my opinion.
Official home page of the Yellow Box Speedo Recalibrator

g6civcx · 09-14-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chibo

When I went with bigger tires / regear on my Land Cruiser I bought something called a 'Yellowbox'. It sat inline of the VSS wire and allowed you to correct in like .5% increments. Really nice piece for $100, in my opinion.
Official home page of the Yellow Box Speedo Recalibrator

That's a VSS calibration box. Unfortunately, such a box does not exist for the Nissan VSS.

I tried to talk a manufacturer into designing one for Nissans, but I went with my custom stuff so there was no need for me to follow up with Nissan VSS products.

If anyone is interested in pursuing this, PM me and I will give you the info so you can pick up where I left off.

UNISA JECS · 09-14-2008, 02:15 PM

Im not tripping on having my speedo more accurate than the factory has it. As long as take for instance a Z32 TT that uses a 3.692 FD and uses a 18t speedo pinion and has a overall rolling diameter of 24.7", now lets say my car S13 coupe is running a 3.692 FD with a 18t speedo pinion and has an overall rolling diameter of ~24.7" im good to go, that shoudl be accurate enough to comply with local speed limit signs with out being to over or under the speed limit.

Alot of people swap rims and tires and along with it goes the accuracy of there speedo unless the actually do a little bit of math and use a rim with an appropriate size tire to get them within the factory overall rolling diameter.

I have 18"'s and have ran with 225/35/18 (24.2") all around and 225/40/18 (25.1") all around its accurate enough within that range andything larger or smaller than these throws of the speedo alot. I have also ran 225/45/18 (26.0") and this size killed the accuracy alot.

idahotuner · 09-14-2008, 02:23 PM

i took the ring gear off my open differential and bolted it on to my hlsd. then used the s15 bearings too. with s15 out put shafts. here are some pictures......

taking the ring gear off the s13 diff

it installed on the s15 lsd

and you cant install a s15 pumpkin in a s13 subframe as they are bolted up different.
everything laid out

and the two with their own bearings

UNISA JECS · 09-14-2008, 02:28 PM

What the big difference on the outputshafts? Other than the S15 having whats looks like a machined surface for the outputshatf seal? Could you use regular S13 VLSD output shaft on a S15?

UNISA JECS · 09-14-2008, 02:30 PM

Oh wait it looks like just maybe a bearing race or somehting is just laying on top of one of the output shafts???

g6civcx · 09-14-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idahotuner

and you cant install a s15 pumpkin in a s13 subframe as they are bolted up different.

What is the difference?

chibo · 09-14-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g6civcx

That's a VSS calibration box. Unfortunately, such a box does not exist for the Nissan VSS.

I tried to talk a manufacturer into designing one for Nissans, but I went with my custom stuff so there was no need for me to follow up with Nissan VSS products.

If anyone is interested in pursuing this, PM me and I will give you the info so you can pick up where I left off.

I find it very surprising that the yellowbox wouldn't work for a Nissan; I've honestly never looked in to it though. How is the Nissan VSS/Speedo setup different than other manufacturers?

g6civcx · 09-14-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chibo

I find it very surprising that the yellowbox wouldn't work for a Nissan; I've honestly never looked in to it though. How is the Nissan VSS/Speedo setup different than other manufacturers?

Straight from the horse's mouth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vendor

Thank you for showing interest in our product!
> >
> > We make custom units for individuals, so ordering
> > one unit only is possible.
> > However, if there is significant interest in a
> > particular custom model, we
> > will offer this officially through distributors.
> >
> > As you know, there are much more car models on the
> > market than motorcycles,
> > and cars sold in the US are often not avaliable in
> > Europe, and vice versa.
> > This is why we don't sell the product for cars, we
> > don't have staff to test
> > compatibility on cars.
> >
> > When we design a custom model, we need the owner to
> > answer some questions.
> > Basically, we need to know what kind of speed sensor
> > the car has.
> > There are three different 2-wire speed sensors and
> > three different 3-wire
> > speed sensors, so we need to make the SH's interface
> > module accordingly.
> >
> > You mentioned that the car has a 2w inductive coil
> > sensor, however, to check
> > this, please proceed as follows:
> > - Disconnect the 2-pole connector of the speed
> > sensor.
> > - Measure the resistance on the two pins of the
> > speed sensor.
> > If the resistance is more than 100 Ohm but less than
> > 2 KOhm, it is an
> > inductive sensor.

UNISA JECS · 09-14-2008, 03:24 PM

If the OP cares here are the specs of the Z32 TT which uses a 3.692

Factory rear wheels of the Z32 TT:
245/45/16 = 24.7" diameter
Speedo pinion = 18t
Part number = 32743-30P18 (M/T)

g6civcx · 09-14-2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNISA JECS

If the OP cares here are the specs of the Z32 TT which uses a 3.692

Rear wheels:
245/45/16 = 24.7" diameter
Speedo pinion = 18t
Part number = 32743-30P18

You all do realize we effectively jacked the thread

09-13-2008, 08:08 AM	#5
mmdb Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 240sx Posts: 1,558 Trader Rating: (20) Feedback Score: 20 reviews	I've had experience in this. DO NOT waste your time trying to fit the s15 ring and pinion into the r200 s13/s14 housing. IT WILL NOT FIT. The depth of the s15 pinion will not allow the ring and pinion to mesh correctly. What you want to do is pick up a q45 ring and pinion from a 97-01 (3.69 gear ratio) and have it swapped into your casing. The HLSD will drop in fine after. Good luck! __________________ .25 till 3

09-14-2008, 12:33 PM	#12
UNISA JECS Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Socal Fontana Age: 42 Posts: 2,372 Trader Rating: (40) Feedback Score: 40 reviews	A 3.6 FD will give you more speed per gear when compared to stock 4.08 FD at the expense of acceleration, numerically less FD is better suited for turbo cars. __________________ PARTS 4 SALE !! Z32 E-Brake/Parking Brake Heatshield Assemblys!!! *Rep/Feedbacks*

09-14-2008, 01:03 PM	#16
UNISA JECS Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Socal Fontana Age: 42 Posts: 2,372 Trader Rating: (40) Feedback Score: 40 reviews	After you swap a 3.692 your speedo will be off, so you'll need to source teh correct speedo pinion, heres a pic: Pics: 17t = black 18t = blue __________________ PARTS 4 SALE !! Z32 E-Brake/Parking Brake Heatshield Assemblys!!! *Rep/Feedbacks*

09-14-2008, 01:52 PM	#18
UNISA JECS Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Socal Fontana Age: 42 Posts: 2,372 Trader Rating: (40) Feedback Score: 40 reviews	Those pinion gears are $25 each so its probably a lil cheaper granted a lil trial an error is needed to get the correct speedo reading. But you can look threw the FSM to get the rolling diameter of the car (3.692 equiped) each speedo pinion was attached to and compare that against your rolling diameter. __________________ PARTS 4 SALE !! Z32 E-Brake/Parking Brake Heatshield Assemblys!!! *Rep/Feedbacks*

09-14-2008, 02:15 PM	#22
UNISA JECS Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Socal Fontana Age: 42 Posts: 2,372 Trader Rating: (40) Feedback Score: 40 reviews	Im not tripping on having my speedo more accurate than the factory has it. As long as take for instance a Z32 TT that uses a 3.692 FD and uses a 18t speedo pinion and has a overall rolling diameter of 24.7", now lets say my car S13 coupe is running a 3.692 FD with a 18t speedo pinion and has an overall rolling diameter of ~24.7" im good to go, that shoudl be accurate enough to comply with local speed limit signs with out being to over or under the speed limit. Alot of people swap rims and tires and along with it goes the accuracy of there speedo unless the actually do a little bit of math and use a rim with an appropriate size tire to get them within the factory overall rolling diameter. I have 18"'s and have ran with 225/35/18 (24.2") all around and 225/40/18 (25.1") all around its accurate enough within that range andything larger or smaller than these throws of the speedo alot. I have also ran 225/45/18 (26.0") and this size killed the accuracy alot. __________________ PARTS 4 SALE !! Z32 E-Brake/Parking Brake Heatshield Assemblys!!! *Rep/Feedbacks* Last edited by UNISA JECS; 09-14-2008 at 03:27 PM..

09-13-2008, 05:38 AM	#2
g6civcx Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 5,764 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	Stupid questions out of the way first. 1) Why do you want to use an S13 case? 2) Why can't you use an S15 case?

09-14-2008, 12:16 PM	#10
g6civcx Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 5,764 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	Thanks. Was this problem ever resolved?

09-14-2008, 12:29 PM	#11
racepar1 Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Simi Valley, CA Age: 38 Posts: 9,006 Trader Rating: (106) Rides Gallery: racepar1 Feedback Score: 106 reviews	You don't want 3.6 gears anyways. Your first gear will only go up to like 5mph. It'll just be stupid low, especially if your car is turbo.

09-14-2008, 02:23 PM	#23
idahotuner Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: St. Maries, Idaho Age: 32 Posts: 1,276 Trader Rating: (17) Rides Gallery: idahotuner Feedback Score: 17 reviews	i took the ring gear off my open differential and bolted it on to my hlsd. then used the s15 bearings too. with s15 out put shafts. here are some pictures...... taking the ring gear off the s13 diff it installed on the s15 lsd and you cant install a s15 pumpkin in a s13 subframe as they are bolted up different. everything laid out and the two with their own bearings __________________ My Twin Scroll Gt30r Sr22det Build

09-14-2008, 02:28 PM	#24
UNISA JECS Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Socal Fontana Age: 42 Posts: 2,372 Trader Rating: (40) Feedback Score: 40 reviews	What the big difference on the outputshafts? Other than the S15 having whats looks like a machined surface for the outputshatf seal? Could you use regular S13 VLSD output shaft on a S15? __________________ PARTS 4 SALE !! Z32 E-Brake/Parking Brake Heatshield Assemblys!!! *Rep/Feedbacks*

09-14-2008, 02:30 PM	#25
UNISA JECS Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Socal Fontana Age: 42 Posts: 2,372 Trader Rating: (40) Feedback Score: 40 reviews	Oh wait it looks like just maybe a bearing race or somehting is just laying on top of one of the output shafts??? __________________ PARTS 4 SALE !! Z32 E-Brake/Parking Brake Heatshield Assemblys!!! *Rep/Feedbacks*

09-14-2008, 03:24 PM	#29
UNISA JECS Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Socal Fontana Age: 42 Posts: 2,372 Trader Rating: (40) Feedback Score: 40 reviews	If the OP cares here are the specs of the Z32 TT which uses a 3.692 Factory rear wheels of the Z32 TT: 245/45/16 = 24.7" diameter Speedo pinion = 18t Part number = 32743-30P18 (M/T) __________________ PARTS 4 SALE !! Z32 E-Brake/Parking Brake Heatshield Assemblys!!! *Rep/Feedbacks*

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