Wannabe1989

If this has been covered 100 times I'm sorry but I just rebuilt my kat. It has a full build and I'm only planning on drifting it as I have been. I don't have plates or insurance on it, I could get them and break in the motor on the street, or do it on the dyno. Which should i do? Benefits? Why? Thanks in advance

ultimateirving

dyno costs money but is better for tuning, more accurate, controlled climate to tune. Street is convenient but may cost u more if you get caught driving without plates/insurance. or going too fast..

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Z32 with lq4 swap
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tow it to a dyno please...

4x4le

In for the smart people in this thread! I hate it when a question like this is asked and everyone says tune it on the street brah!!1! U dont race on the dyno so why tune on one. Thats bullshit.

Honestly, breaking it in on the street would be ok if it were registered ect but its fine to break it in on the dyno.

MADE

I've had cars tune on the street and dyno. IMO the tuner abilities are more important than where they choses to tune it at.

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rocknrollkat

Dyno tuning gives you repeatable results in a controlled environment. Here's an example.
on the dyno, bring the engine up to 3,000 rpms.
Read the guages on the dyno.
Stop the engine.
Make 1 change to the setup.
Bring the revs up again to 3,000 rpms.
Read the guages again.
What changed ?
That's the scientific approach.
Now try that on the street, cruising at 3,000 rpms, read the dashboard guages, write down the results, dodge that squirrel, watch out for the fuzz, don't hit anything.
Pull over, make one change to the setup, repeat.
Good luck....
Rocky

MADE

I know it sounds dangerous but most of the tuners in Japan don't use dyno's. But most only tune in area's they consider safe by their drivers and tuner.

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rocknrollkat

Konnichiwa, MADE !! For street tuning, I would pick a stretch of road, measure it, mark it with spray paint at the start/finish points, have a buddy or cutie (preferably) with a stopwatch and notepad, you know the rest. Here in NYC we used to do tuning like that, but the traffic is so bad here now....
Ja Ne,
Rocky

4x4le

I street tune for driveability only. Im only worried that the afr stays acceptable and everything feels smooth.
Power is to be made on a dyno. I have had so many dynojet tunes and street tunes come to me so i can put them on a load based dyno dynamics and i have always made more power. More safer power i should say because there have ALWAYS been areas that had too much timing and either too much or not enough fuel. Your engine revvs so quick that your wideband is gathering an average afr in the exhaust, but when slowed down on the dyno where it has to hold at every rpm for a few seconds you can quickly see that 4000 rpms is holding a 13:1 afr and 4250 is holding a 9:1 afr and then 4500 is sitting on 10.8:1 and so on. On the street or on a dynojet this may end up looking like a perfectly acceptible solid 11.5:1 and it was achieved and the truth is your lean and rich during some cycles.

rocknrollkat

Good points. Dyno tuning gives you a great baseline to start with, road testing gives you the real world finishing touches. If you had the time, money and location, you could street test the car, dyno tune it for maximum power, return to the street and compare real world results !!

4x4le

What i do is get everything scaled right on the street and driveable, dyno to make power and for the low throttle to wot transitations, and then back to the street usually just to observe and make sure nothing stupid happens.

The information a dyno gives you cannot be given any other way. Most people think a dyno graph is the end result of a tune. To me they are what enabeled me to make the final one.

4x4le

Also, i dont get what your talking about the real world gives you finishing touches. Ive already elaberated showing how you cannot gather proper air fuel data on the street and as far as timing goes, well what are you going to do, add more once you get off the dyno?

Dyno is the only way to tune an engine. There is tons of tuning equipment that can make tuning better and more precise such as listening devices, egt sensors ect, but those can be used on the dyno too.

Wannabe1989

Ok thanks. I don't need a tune cuz I got a pre programmer jwt ecu. But I'll still go to a dyno to do it cuz it'll cost about the same as if I got plates and insurance for a couple months and all.

rocknrollkat

Real world finishing touches are outside, on the road, where altitudes vary, air temps and densities vary, driving style comes into play, load conditions vary, tons of variables that don't exist in the 'clean' room. The engine dyno is the best way to get a great starting point, then the real world is where I finish the setup.

4x4le

altitudes, air temps and densities = ///

if the computer is working right and you did your part right on the dyno none of that will need adjusted no matter what is thrown at it later.

Driving style? Searously? "hey man I got a drift tune and a drag tune", no its all the same.

I can change load on the dyno dynamics from anything you could see on the street up to as much as things you couldnt see in the natural world. The dyno I use holds back diesel trucks that make 1000whp and 2400lb/ft.

I just dont get it but I guess thats why people come pay me to tune their car, and I guess thats why they dont call me up needing changes made once they go back to where ever they live and drive where ever they drive.

Zacho

My process:

-Do math for base map. Don't worry about positive manifold pressure values just worry about driveability.
-Get the car out on the road and work on the tune a bit. Stay out of boost and don't mess with timing much except for @idle. Make the car run well, start reliably and sort out any idle/ignition/ecu outputs and make sure everything is functioning.
-Drive the car for a few days like this. Give it some time for issues to come out.
-Take it to the dyno.
-After the dyno get back on the road and do fine adjustments. In my experience on a dynapack, dynojet, and mustang dyno when you go back out on the street the cells you pass through on the map usually aren't 100% exact to what you hit on the dyno.
-Take car to the track and enjoy.


When you go to the dyno, especially if someone is tuning your car for you, don't bring it with shit that "may" go wrong or "may" need to be fixed. They don't want to deal with it and your wallet won't like you.

rocknrollkat

Yes, seriously. And no, it's NOT all the same, not even close

4x4le

we do things very similar. I do start out by making sure that all of the sensors are working right, base timing is right, plugs are new and gapped where I estimate they should be and a heat range I estimate they should be.
I have never felt the need to make changes on the street after I started using a dyno dynamics. Check one out.

yea it really is all the same. if your engine is making as much power as it can everywhere then that is what you want.
The only settings I would change based on driving style would be boost settings and if you want no lift shift or not.
engine paramiters, Ill stick to the dyno

You fail to list any examples of anything. Your argument is "yea huh" "no" "seriously no its not"

Tell me an example you would change an engine paramiter once you leave the dyno.

What condition would happen, and what setting would you change.

rocknrollkat

To begin with, 'tuning', in the realm of racecars, refers to not only engine prep but drivetrain, chassis, suspension and tire prep also. Where would you like me to begin ?

4x4le

try me

but if you think your going to go off topic by talking about changing foot settings then think again. I work on race cars every week and I know those settings are changed in the real world and then my (dyno) for that is I bring them back to the alinment rack to see what we ended up with.

were talking about engine parameters in this thread

rocknrollkat

I thought the topic was tuning. How is that off topic ?? Foot settings ?? What engineering book did THAT term come out of ??
Alinment ?? Do you mean "alignment" ?? Where do you get this stuff ??
Cute graphic, by the way. I like cats.

4x4le

the topic is engine tuning, street vs dyno

you ran your mouth about stuff you know nothing about, got cornered in your own bluff and tried to change the subject.

Still havent shed any insite on anything, nothing based on facts, no examples given for anything.

Anything I say Im fully prepared to back up, as I said earlier, try me.

Foot settings, as a matter of fact it came from initial d, I thought it was catchy and started saying that instead of ALIGNMENT settings for the hell of it. Yea i seen the red squiggly line under the misspelled word and totally didnt give a shit to right click on it to change it.
Engineering book, um no. Ive been having to deal with engineers for the past 6 years and my conclusion with them are they are the dumbest group of stubborn fucking people Ive ever had the pleasure of dealing with. Most likely Im replying to one right now.
If you want to make yourself sound smart just list examples to support your claim and stay on topic. No one is impressed with your spell checker.

the graphic came from google images btw

rocknrollkat

The topic is --- "Tuning on the dyno or street? "
The word "engine" does not appear in the topic.
I see the language degenerating and the name calling is starting.
Nobody's going to learn anything here, since you seem to have it all covered.
"Foot settings" and alinmet", honestly, I thought you meant "Liniment" and were complaining about your bad foot !!
Forget that I've been around high performance cars my entire life, you're not going to learn anything, you know it all.
So let's do the "Burger King" thing and have it "Your way".
You can have the last word if you like, and I'm sure you will.
I've got other things to do.

4x4le

Your 63, dynos were not something of your time i guess. Maybe thats why you thought anything other than engines were tuned on them?
Last word, im sure others will have cute comments.

travisty_

The topic is clearly engine tuning, now back on topic.

bardabe

Your an Idiot, we are clearly talking about engine tunning, to the OP. Please spend money on Dyno time, and don't cheap out with a POS Dyno Jet, use a Dyno Dynamics or Dynapack.

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Review Thread

Kingtal0n

First its important to mention like someone already said, "tuning" refers to the entire vehicle not just the engine. But since this topic is engine specific, it will be ok to examine specifically engine tuning IN PARTICULAR INSTANCES.

For this particular instance we will assume the engine will be daily driven. We will assume it uses pump gas. We will assume it spends most of its time at stop lights and possibly cruising steady around 40mph and 70mph.
What is important then? REALLY Important?


Lets jump to the meat and potatoes of engine tuning: The right chemical reaction. We are trying to apply force to a crankshaft by burning fuel and air- WHILE keeping the amount of fuel burnt to a minimum for the given force applied (fuel economy!) and supplying enough fuel and the right ignition point to prevent engine damage!

IF we prevent engine damage, and minimize the amount of fuel burnt, and maximize the amount of force applied to the crankshaft for any given "cell" of engine parameter... then we have taken care of the fundamental aspects of engine tuning, right? This is where I will focal point my final investigation for the thread "title"...

the original question is street or dyno. Let me start by saying there are many kinds of dynos, engine dynos for instance can tune an engine without even needing a vehicle. I could do all of the engine tuning without even driving the car right? Well, technically... But we are assuming you guys mean CHASSIS DYNO by which the actual tire of a vehicle touches a roller with a (usually) given mass so that a computer can determine the horsepower by measuring how quickly that roller accelerates. AND THATS IT! Thats all a Dyno Does! It has NOTHING to do with tuning AT ALL!!!! Its just a TOOL that can be USED for tuning!So my initial observation for the street or dyno argument is simple: Can you afford this tool? Because clearly, if you can afford to use an obviously helpful tool (When used correctly) then why not?

Lets ask a new question: Is it DESIRABLE to tune an Engine(topic) on a chassis dyno instead of the street? My short answer is NO, the street would be preferred, simply because it represents a more REAL SITUATION for the vehicle. That is, specifically, the load represented by the street is given based on the vehicle's weight and rolling resistance and gravity and all that cool physics stuff, where the load represented by a random chassis dyno roller is represented ONLY by the weight of the roller. So your "perfect dyno tune" can fall to complete $#!T once that heavy vehicle hits the right and your seemingly "perfect" 15 degrees of timing under load that gave such a smooth flat torque curve without a hint of knock blows a hole in the headgasket instantly. So no, a dyno is a TOOL but it is not THE tool, it is not the all important say in how "well" an engine is tuned given the circumstance. It can and should only be used to tune an engine IN ADDITION TO the natural experience of the car driving on a street. I am not saying that is impossible to strict tune a car on a dyno, NO, and experiened tuner may be able to determine that the vehicle will require a few degrees less of timing or a small bump in fuel or the additional loading characteristics observed when a vehicle hits the road... you CAN account for these things but that is off topic! The original question was: Street or dyno? So after all of this we see that simply:

1. A dyno is only a tool that may be used in addition to other tools to tune an engine (or other off topic aspects)
2. A dyno is only capable of giving you the "tune" that the tuner is capable of extracting from it. A dyno by itself does not "tune" anything.
3. Real engine tuning is usually based on knowledge of how an engine works and usually some experience and a good tuner should use ALL tools available to him/her.

and last, #4: Every vehicle is different, every set of tools is different, every calibration of every potential difference is different, every real world calculation back to back even for the same set of variables is going to be different. I blame matter, for matter is discrete and sooo impossibly tiny, the number of electrons moved from place to place during a dyno run even if misplaced by a single elementary charge will give different results. So #4 basically just says that you can only do the best you can do, and you should use every tool available with as much knowledge of how those tools work to maximize the performance (which includes economy) of whatever you are working with, be it cars or computers or people.

4x4le

^^^^ I would totally agree with you if every dyno were a dyno jet but they are not.

Do some research. Specifically look at what you can do with a dyno dynamics dyno. It is not inertia based its load based.
Thats how a junky dyno jet works. It knows the weight of a roller and estimates hp based on how quick you spin the roller up and then calculates tq from its hp estimate.
A dyno dynamics applies tq to the rear wheels and knows how much your creating to overcome its tq and can get an accurate hp figure from that. You can raise or lower the tq imput from anything to simulate driving on ice all the way up to trying to pull a building up a mountain (impossible load).


Now I almost agree with everything else you said though, im just assuming you dont know much about load bearing dynos. With one, if you tune each cell, cell by cell, and enter each cell by adjusting load on the dyno, only that type of load will make your engine enter those cells wether its on the dyno, street, race track, or offroad. Scaling your maps right is also important (wether its tuned on a dyno or street) because if there is too much of a gap you can get into the unknown.

Post #9 is one of the single most important reasons tuning on anything other than a load dyno is a no no.

Kingtal0n

Yes, all my data is assuming a very specific instance and typical chassis dyno. Change one thing and every word is meaningless. So you agree with me in the specific context with which I Wrote all those words... yes you should because I did cover my ass. Most people do not know what a loading dyno is.

You are still faced with tools vs dollars. To effectively use a load type dyno is still going to cost money and it still does not "tune" anything, that is still the tuner's job.

So let me add the load dyno and comparison contrast it for you now:
Yes you can hit nearly any load spot on your map because you can adjust the throttle valve and "weight" of your roller simultaneously. There is still a discrepancy to the vehicle weight; that is, you are strictly tuning the performance of the engine on those load cells without actually driving the vehicle's own weight around. So the final tune will still change once the vehicle hits the real road, just like it will change when the atmospheric pressure fluctuates and your "0 load" map based tune becomes richer/leaner since a map sensor can not measure the mass of air- its up to the tuner to provide fueling based on what the engine desires at that instant. With this in mind, you can instantly say that there is no such thing as a "perfect tune" because the instant you drive anywhere, up or down, rain or shine, hot or cold, everything changes, and so does the performance characteristics of the engine. These things cannot be helped! So what we are looking at now is simply headroom! Room for changing variables, wiggle room to prevent engine damage and provide maximum performance. As close to the edge of chaos as possible but not over the line!

Which brings us back to the actual street where the car will drive. If I ship the car up north and get it "perfectly tuned" by a load dyno and bring it back- whats the difference between that and a mail order ROM tune based on a similar combination? Ah, Actually having the engine in front of the tuner, being able to adjust the fuel pressure on the spot, noticing that yes, the EGT drops and the torque climbs as I add a few degrees of timing. Can we see this sort of thing on the street? NOT GENERALLY... Thats why dynos are considered TOOLS, they do give us valuable information if used correctly. ALL OF THEM DO. Even a "crappy chassis dyno" without the ability to measure horsepower or torque (lets say its broken today) Is still a valuable tool... We can still accelerate and data-log and make changes right? So there is a place for every tool in the world:

The street is the ultimate tool. This is where and how the car is actually driven. there is no better way to "simulate" actual real world driving than actual real world driving, period, I dont care what kind of dyno you have. Unsafe? If you are being UNSAFE with this then you are doing it WRONG. There is no reason to be "solo tuning and driving" For god's sake have someone drive the car around (um, the owner?) while you do your job and tune that shit- exactly as the owner drives it! THEN take the vehicle to a dyno and run it as it sits! Do some final minor crispy edges tuning but the bulk should already have been done on the street.

And lets also examine a specific instance when there is no one available to drive the vehicle. YOU are the driver AND the tuner now. Dangerous yet? It doesn't have to be! First of all, there is no reason to be driving around with the laptop open. If you are a real tuner you can read data-logs, and with that means that you can drive some, stop and tune, drive some more, stop and tune, drive some more, stop and tune. I have done this and to be honest it is VERY FAST AND EASY IF AND ONLY IF you have the capability to log wideband air/fuel ratios along with load cells. With that one simple capability this job becomes effortless- you know a desired A/F ratio and within 20 minutes those numbers are popping up everywhere.

rocknrollkat

Kingtalon said --- "The street is the ultimate tool."
Now we're getting somewhere.
Okay, let's say that the topic is "Engine tuning". It's not in the header, as I poinetd out, but let's move ahead.
If we're discussing engine tuning, then why is there so much talk about chassis dynos ??
If we're tuning engines, let's do it right and use an engine dyno.
It makes the most sense to develop the engine on the test bed, get all your settings correct, then place it in the chassis, track test, etc. to establish a baseline.
That's where we initially evaluate everything in the system from tire pressues to driver attitude.
The chassis dyno (a misnomer, since it's the driveline we're evaluating, NOT the chassis and suspension) is where we can see how the driveline responds to transmission ratio changes, rear drive ratio changes, etc.
There's more, of course....