kashira kureijii

Lately I have been bored studying, and while staring of into space with physics stuff in front of me I started thinking about hondas. I sorta hate on em quite a bit, because most of them kinda suck and are total shit when it comes to work put into them, but I feel as if I am being unreasonable. After watching a bunch of old hot versions, I have sorta grown to respect them more, but I still don't see why people thought they were so great and how they won what they won (even in the jdm market they seem to have more than respectable competition)I know that this doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but the question has been persisting, why did fwd hondas and acuras define (for the most part) slightly sporty fwd cars from when they came out until now?

for instance, in the late 80's and early 90's:
Toyota: offered ae92 gts corrollas which were 4age equipped (130hp DOHC) as well as some other corollas of the e90 series which received the 4age.
even base model corollas received the 4afe engine, which had DOHC and made more hp than the contemporary SOHC honda engine. plus FWD celicas were also offered which also had more hp and DOHC compared to the honda's being offered, except for maybe the integras or whatever.

Suzuki: offered swift gti with dual cams, as well as that other 3 cylinder turbo one, both of these being comparable in power if not exceeding what honda was offering.

Nissan: sentra SER and NX200 with sr20's so 140hp DOHC
Also the sentra nx of the late 80's had the ca18de which was better than what honda was offering at the time.

Izuzu: I mark turbo and that other one with the lotus handling, both which had good performance.

Mitsubishi: mirage turbo and of course all the other dsm's but they aren't really comparable.

Mazda: I know mazda offered a DOHC slightly sporty fwd, but I can't remember what it was.

Honda: basically offering SOHC cars, even the si's

Acura: I think offered some relatively good performing cars, but nothing I think titanically exceeds its competitors. from wikipedia info, there was few gsr models imported.

So the question is why? why did they become much more famous than their competitors despite their competitors offering cars that by numbers and tech are much better? why is there a super street honda issue and not a super street fwd toyota, nissan or mazda issue? Why did at first, hondas descibe the tuner scene and not other brands?

I've never owned any FWD cars, but I was just wondering why the FWD honda cars became so much more successful than their counterparts I guess? not trying to get forum points or whatever, this is just a weird situation that I can't seem to find the answer too.
I don't think it was they were easier to work on, because all cars from this era are relatively easy to work with.

VTEC isn't the answer I don't think, because it didn't make them perform better than their counterparts in the HP area until a lot later, and even later toyota and nissan responded with similar cars with valve timing that had similar numbers.

Maybe one of you older members can answer this question, as you were probably more aware of how things turned out and why?

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RB25GUY

Dude Vtec, DOHC, Group A racing..... in 88' The NSX was the first to have the Vtec system if you recall around that time they(Honda) were very dominant F1 HONDA / MCLAREN ARYTON SENNA (argueably the best F1 driver to have ever lived) had ALOT of input into the production and R&D to the super car that had F1 winning technology.

With that being said the CRX was the first FWD honda that (pretty popular to begin with for the nimble yet decent ZC DOHC non vtec motors in the previous gen) had the essence of the NSX closest thing to F1 sounding, feeling, the roar of the variable valve timing just crossing to the other cam lobe at higher rpms, the turbo feel of tq without the turbo, is just what people wanted to feel not only hear on tv or at the race track.

I believe a mixture of that F1 winning pedigree, The Animalistic Senna breaking the law of physics in the F1 cars, and just the affordability was just a mixture of success that just sky rocketed the Honda industry to the top.

Other manufactures at the time were not at the highest the pinnacle of Motorsports F1. So Honda had the R&D on most of them at the time and it wasn't for another handful of years did anyone make any sorts of VVTI, VVEL,or VTC etc

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kashira kureijii

that makes sense for other markets, and for the US market in the later 90's, but what about early 90's? do you think this racing pedigree is what gave them that much hype compared to their competitors?

What you said makes sense, but it just seems like the american market honda's are super pathetic compared to what the other brands were offering. We didn't get all that type R action and stuff until later right? and even then I thought it was fairly rare. what gave them the edge going into the early 90's ?

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bored123

my opinion (which is useless) B-series engines and V-tec! that's what made Honda in the 90's. No one had anything like it plus the performance you could get out of one of those motors.

I believe they had a Patent on the technology (variable valve timing) and if you think that wasn't well ahead of its time look at all the manufactures that copied it after the patent was up (again I'm assuming with my useless knowledge).

I successfully swapped and partially assembled a D-series engine myself with very little knowledge on my first car (about 10 yrs ago) with no issues. Very easy platform to work with. Plus so many parts are exchangeable between virtually everything in their lineup at that time.

again this is just my opinion and is backed up by nothing

mechanicalmoron

Bang for the buck.

They're cheap, built really well, really easy to take apart, small enough that you can get away with all sorts of terrible ideas and techniques and a lack of important tools, and tough enough to survive a short while after being exposed to honda people. And they're everywhere. And all the parts from every single one can go onto every single other one.

There's car guys with hondas, but for the most part honda guys are a specific kind of incapable - every bolt on their cars is stripped, and they skip the dire necessities in favour of stupid shit that does nothing, and break everything, because of a total lack of mechanical understanding. This is partly also because they function as first sporty cars - they're very accessible and affordable and easy enough to (try to) work on even if you totally suck at cars (which also means you're prone to not understand the suckyness of FWD) - then the owners realize they want RWD and a fresh slate to not fuck up so much, after getting a ride in a 240....


Shame they turn the wrong way, or the toughness and lego-factor would make me want a D/B series in a 240.

Look up rt4wd, it's neat stuff.

kashira kureijii

so to get this straight, their overall durability and commonness is what made them so popular with the dipshit fwd crowd? corollas and sentras and all that are just as easy to work on though, all are very simple fwd setups.

Also we didn't get the b16's here right? so is it just they developed a swap culture compared to other brands? corollas and sentra's and stanza cars all had better engines in the jap market too though, so it still isn't obvious why things turned out the way they did.

I am of course not going to buy a fwd car anytime soon, I just don't understand why. maybe it is as you guys said, and those cars just happened to be durable, and available, and ran despite what some inept dipshit would do to them

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VROOOM

we got B16's in the 1999 Civic Si. before that we had the B18, B17, H22 and the single cam vtec engines. the SE-R was pretty popular in its time too.

you also have to realize the import car scene was tiny back then. i had a 240sx in 96 and you couldnt find parts if you wanted to. an Sr swap was extremely rare until the early 2000's.

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RB25GUY

The integra GSR in 92' came with a B17a vtec engine in the us i believe alot of the hype came from road and track car and driver magazines from the accords, and preludes late 80s B20 dohc and 4ws, yadda yadda.

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kashira kureijii

I see, maybe I am just making assumptions about when the scenes came into into being, I had thought they started back in the early 90's, but maybe when they came into full swing was around 2000 or so, making it as you said, with b16 hondas being around. I'd say I'd trust your answer most, cuz you were actually there haha

what honda cars came with b18/b17 ? were those engines only in integras? I don't have any honda knowledge is why I ask

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kashira kureijii

that also explains it fairly well too, I had just assumed almost all of them came with those SOHC engines, but if some of the Honda/Acura cars came with better DOHC engines, than that also sorta makes their case.

I have seen a bunch of the old motor weeks, and they seem to review them as being very good

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drift freaq

It really boiled down to a couple of key factors in the U.S. First was the fact that Homda really became super popular in the 80's. This at a time when Toyota was just being Toyota and Nissan was suffering an identity crisis. Nissan had been very successful all through the 70's with the Datsun line. Both the S30 Z car and PL510 defined categories for Japanese cars that prior to their release were barely on the map. Z cars made real Performance Sports cars that handled affordable. At 4k new it was a no brainier.
510's made economy/ Sports Sedans affordable as well at 2k. Nissan rode this out into the early 80's except they axed the IRS 510 ( big mistake). In the early 80's identity crisis set in. Nissan Japan decided they wanted the American buying public to know they were buying Nissan's not Datsuns.
This was a marketing backfire because the name change really confused the buying public.

Meanwhile Honda was coming on hard with FWD gas saving cars that were pretty reliable.
Now a lot of the car buyers that would become adults in the early nineties grew up being driven in and getting to drive their parents Honda's. Accords and Preludes were quite popular as well as Civics.
So the lines between RWD and FWD had been blurred for them. Hell a lot of them did not even realize the 240sx was RWD.
Unlike earlier generations who had grown up in a predominantly RWD world.

Now what made Honda go Supersonic (lol) in the early nineties was not so much the NSX as it was like others said VTEC but not because of a so called turbo TQ feel like someone above said.

It was two things gas mileage and HP. Honda engines have always been torquless wonders compared to Nissan and Toyota engines.
What Honda did though was age old car marketing. They built the engines to have higher HP than their competitors and marketed the hell out of that fact especially with the Acura line.

Carroll Shelby said this back in the 60's and it still holds true today. HP sells cars and TQ wins races.
TQ gets the car going and helps it accelerate HP keeps it rolling.

Because of this the consumers flocked to Honda/Acura because not only did they get great gas mileage but they had more HP than most of their competitors.
Add into that stock double wishbone front suspension and the cars did handle pretty damn well.
The only FWD Nissan that had that in the early 90's was Infiniti G20 and ya P10's handle really well as well.

As far as why Hondas got big in racing here it was down to the fact that the factory encouraged it and backed teams . One Specifically being Comptech a former Datsun racing Nissan machine shop in NorCal who would take the whole Acura Integra thing to the bank.

This is why Honda got even bigger in the 90's and gave rise to Honda boys. Drag racing? Sure take mom and dads Honda to the street drags for kicks. Get sucked into the adrenaline of it and inherit that car. Build the engine for even more HP or get a B16 if it did not have it and pump that.

Never have been never will be a Honda person NSX's are cool and maybe S2K but I just can't drive a FWD Honda.
Always been a Datsun/Nissan person, still feeling a bit shocked with myself that I love and own a BMW E36 M3. I used to think about a custom plate for my 510 IEATBMW. Lol

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VROOOM

the scene was around in the early 90's, but it got really big towards the late 90's.

the B17A came in the 2nd gen integra GSR. a pretty rare car, i think only about 4000 were made. then the B18C came in the 1994-2001 integra GSR. the Prelude also had a 2.2 Vtec engine from 93 until thier demise. from 92 on the civic si had a 1.6 sohc vtec engine. it seems when this car came out is when the honda scene started to grow.

i used to own a 96 civic hatch with a built B18C engine. the car was pretty damn fun, especially with an LSD. mine was mildly stroked and had a built valve train that revved to 9500rpms almost all the parts except the valve train came form other Honda engines.

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RB25GUY

Spoken like a true OG

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Dutchmalmiss

I believe a key factor was interchangeability. You can 'upgrade' your car with beefier/better parts from other models for considerably less than paying for a brand new part. On the flip side, aftermarket tuning companies jumped on the support-wagon with Honda because how many cars their parts can fit on.

The proliferation of these tuner-friendly Hondas in the long run may be because enthusiasts saw how supported they were by the aftermarket and basically thought "Hmm, future looks good for this car if I stick with it."

I don't quite remember how much these Hondas were brand new, but were they competitively priced as well? If so, then that meant more buyers; which also means more cars being parted out later down the road.

Never owned a Honda either. Always been RWD biased, but now I'm starting to become open-minded.

Edit: Just saw drift_freaq's post. He wins haha.

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Pignose, biaaatch.

kashira kureijii

Those are both very good answers, and I would say that they answered why the whole honda boy thing came to be.
Thanks to the other dudes who answered as well, those posts appeared while I was writing mine haha
Thanks for answering my questions dudes who answered. It makes a lot more sense from people who were actually around back then ( as in of car owning age).

I am not a fwd person by any means, nor do I like hondas, it is sorta the exact opposite with me hating on them quite a bit. I am not thinking of buying one or anything ( I have way to many 240 projects as it is ), I was really just wondering how the whole honda boy thing came to be.

Thanks dudes

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Corbic

Spot on, but I'd also like to add that by the mid-80's, people WANTED FWD.
It was seen as the modern choice at the time. Just about everything that existed in the 70's became FWD, Celicas, Corollas, Lancer, Duster, Etc. Ford even tried to release the Probe as the next Gen Mustang.

FWD offers huge advantages over RWD for most average buyers. More predictable handling, better fuel economy, less powertrain loss, better cold weather traction and more interior space. It's also cheap to build and more versital for chassis sharing.

Honda also just made better cars. Nissan, Toyota and the domestics could not touch a Integra, Civic Hatch or CRX in styling and build quality.

If anyone lost their way in the 80's, it was Volkswagen, the previous economy car darling. They produced millions of Beetles and Rabits (MK1) in the 50's, 60's and 70's. But by the mid 80's where completely washed up. It wasn't till the 1.8T and the MKIV that they even became noticeable.

VROOOM

The VW Corrado was an awesome car. i would still love to have one.

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Corbic

This is also true, if you build it, they will come.

By having a huge presence, a huge aftermarket and a huge fan base, people came.

Most kids only know of tuning Hondas until they start to see the rest of the world. Look how the 240sx was ignored until the early 2000's, then all the bandwagon jumpers came. Now kids have no idea about BMWs or whatever because the defacto answer is "get a 240 bruh".

Corbic

But it was stupid expensive new and a sales dud. I too wanted one bad back in 2001-3. Now the idea of finding a clean one sounds impossible.

1988montecarloss

this. regardless of your opinion or what vehicles you prefer this is a fact. they are just better and more capable cars than the ae92,b13 etc like in your original post

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Cloud_Strife

Corbic, Dutch, and drift have pretty much covered all the angles. They did a good job of it too.

But I did want to stress on the interchangeability part.

I originally started with FWD cars, specifically honda/acura. It was amazing to go to the junkyard and see what kind of OEM stuff you could use for others. accords, integras, civics, whatever you can imagine from the lineup, something could be taken and used.

You also have to think about it from another angle. I don't know if they intended this.. But imagine being someone who couldn't afford the "luxury" line of acuras. You could take your honda, steal all the Acura stuff (misnomer but w/e), and throw it on your cheaper chassis. Unless you have the type R civic (damn, EK9?), then the underlying frame between Acura and Honda cars was pretty much the same for production cars.

Also wanted to stress what was said about FWD being the "big thing". RWD was seen as old and undesirable technology that needed to be adjusted to FF layouts. I think that was one of the big focus ideas in Initial D as well.

And this:
This is such a huge determining factor in what becomes popular. Just look at the difference between DA and DC Integra aftermarket opportunities. That's why certain people have each one of those cars. There are many amazing chassis out there that can blow away competitors, they just aren't popular and subsequently don't have aftermarket support. The BG Protege is one of the best vehicles money can buy (with the twin cam engine), but the community is small and close. I guess you have to decide which is better for you.

Also, look at Korean market cars. I think their sedan and eco class cars are great for durability and price, but they are not good performers. Their coupe' is like 3,500 pounds or something crazy. That's AWD with Double din nav and a bulit-in mini cooler for keeping your drinks cold. Cosmos weight. But, I think Korean cars will become very popular in the future for what corbic said.

I also just think that Honda is so intertwined with Japan that it's almost like a nostalgic pride thing. You just can't seperate the two. They went from commuter cars to cars (as was said) and technology that could dominate the pros. That's a big thing for such a company that was driven early on by affordability and durability alone.


Boy it's fun to pretend like you know something when you actually don't.

Great thread by the way OP.



Speaking of which, could one of you smart enthusiasts tell me why Nissan decided to go with the two tone color paint jobs? I love them, I'm just wondering what could have made them make such a decision.

Corbic

Because it was the 80's and Nissan was following the trend.

Lots and lots of two tone cars back then. Biggest reasons for them going away a - manufacturers wanted to save money.

Gone are the blue, red, green, interiors, and many other options from that time.

kashira kureijii

https://www.facebook.com/12392457102...6607817420261/

so apparently one of the newer spoon productions has put down a pretty impressive lap time, and everyone is making a big deal out of it on FB.
pretty impressive
I still kinda would like to see some lap times from other brands, to compare. I thought an rx7 held the Tsukuba record, and I could have sworn there was a Hot version where the Tec Art ae86 or its ae86 competitors did sub 1 minute lap.




also this gif, because it's awesome, and I don't want to have to wait to use it in context.




go and spread the GIF gospel!

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Cloud_Strife

I just want to go to his B-day party on the 30th. That's gotta be a good time.

EK9 is a pretty impressive machine already. I guess it's all relative though. Still pretty amazing they can do what they did.

I'm more wondering how much everything cost though. I'm sure it's not Lambo money but it'd be interesting to see. I also love how they do their videos what with the hirigana and kanji with numbers next to showing the performance parts.

10/10 best gif though.

The funny part is
Honda boys can't even buy a legit EK9 type R

kashira kureijii

the gif is really the most rewarding part of the experience.
A birthday with tsuchiya -san would be awesome. He would grope your girlfriend, but get away with it because he is such an awesome old man. I'm assuming he would blow out your candles for you, and then drive off in a gtr which he would subsequently ridicule by saying is a cefiro.

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Cloud_Strife

By the way, when you were talking about the FF Mazda DOHC, were you looking for this?

kashira kureijii

that'll work, but I kinda meant the bubbly one, the mx3 it's the one that looks like a land Guppy. They both count as competition though.

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Cloud_Strife

It's either this or this (second gen).

Can't let it go

kashira kureijii

A mazda fan I guess?

This is the one I was thinking of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-3

323 gtx is super cool, but it isn't really part of the FWD economy car condition.

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