Mr. Badlose

Subject: Falken Azenis vs Kumho Victoracers

Ok, obviously Victoracers are a more expensive, grippier, shorter lifespan tire race tire. But I want a set of spare rims with some grippy R-compound tires.

Grippier than my 205/50/15 Azenis Sports, that is. Is it worth paying the bucks to do this? Can anyone tell me offhand if the difference is like night and day? Or am I just better off putting that money into stuff like camber plates and more Azenis and just learn to drive better?

Replicant_S14

Depends on what you want to do with the tires. Unless you are autocrossing in a street tire class, the Kumhos are going to have more dry grip and will have a less negative reaction to heat. Are they worth it? Dunno. To me they aren't because I don't compete in a class that allows r-comps.

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Rennen

I autocrossed the end of last season on 205/50/15 Azenis, and for the one event it wasn't raining this season I tried out some well used Kumho Ecsta V700 R compounds in the same size.


I haven't gotten used to the R comps yet, but I can say that there is a night and day difference. For one, you have to know how hot your tires are, those things gripped like nothing else on my 3rd run when there were superhot, I took a slalom at almost full throttle! But then we got a break and 3 more runs and the tires got cold..... I was expecting that über grip, but it wasn't there. Another thing is that it is hard to tell when you are spinning/locking up a tire because they don't "talk" like the azenis did. I found myself in braking zones wondering why I couldn't turn out of them only to find a large cloud of smoke behind me! Also, the R compounds require heat cycling and proper storage to stay sticky their whole life.

Hopefully I can get a few more events out of the Rs to get used to them

-Matt

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'89 Nissan 240SX fastback: #23 DSP/RallyMod2/Track Slut
'95 BMW 540i 6 speed: Ultimate Commuting Machine

PFM Racing
www.solo2.org
www.midwest240sx.com

Mr. Badlose

I don't think I'll be doing much autocrossing this year, our local club isn't really up to par. Mostly road course events. Thanks for the comments so far.

DS 240R

I'd definitely say it is worth it on a road course. At least 1 second on a 2 mile course. (Of course you could get Hoosiers and get another second or two on top of that.)

One thing you will have to get used to, like was mentioned, is less of a squealing when you are at the limit. You have to feel the tire instead of hear it. Also, the Kumhos definitely need to be heat cycled- they last a lot longer that way in my experience.

A downside not mentioned is that the Kumhos will take a lot longer to recover from overheating. General consensus among racers I know is that once you burn them in a driving session you won't get them back.

You might also try the Hankook R compounds. They are pretty cheap, too.

HippoSleek

Edited b/c I now see "what for"

If you are talking about DE/open track events, I think it depends a lot on why you are there and how familiar you are with track driving. If you are there b/c you like to drive on track,why waste the money - ever? You can have a lot of fun sliding around on Azenis and save plenty of dough. You aren't or shouldn't be competing, so 4 seconds left on the table isn't much. If you are there b/c you want to graduate to racing, stickys might make sense b/c you need to learn the limits applicable in race trim.

But if you are new to open tracking, do NOT get R comps. They will become a crutch. Last weekend I was at VIR in my underpowered, Azenis shod Miata chasing various R comp wearing cars. To be remotely close, I had to drive nearly perfect while they were often off line and using the tires to help them. The point is that I have had to learn to be percise while they can get away with sloppy. When I go to stickys, it won't even be close. There's also a nice thing about driving your car to the event and taking it onto the track w/o toting tires. And a nice thing about paying $70 a tire instead of $170. And a nice thing about using them for thousands of miles rather than a few hours. No storage concerns. No heat cycle burn outs. Flat spots that wear in.

sykikchimp

I agree totally with Mark.

and from my experience, no one in novice should be running r-compounds.

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DS 240R

I agree you shouldn't start with R compounds. Like you said, you do get a higher level of car control driving street tires. I don't know if they become your crutch, but you do lose a little of that finer smoothness with the steering and gas/brake. I also believe you should autox before you hotlap. Walk before you run.

But before I started racing I was going to 6-8 hotlapping events per season. When you are putting on that many track miles you go through a lot of tires- no matter what they are. So it made sense to get another set of rims for track only use. And at $110 each (at the time, although you can get them full-tread from Tire Rack for $119) Kumhos were a pretty good deal since I'd already had track experience. And more than one time I've faced the ride home with cords showing or thumping along the freeway with a big flatspot.

My thoughts were, if I was getting another set of tires anyway, why not step up to more performance. The Azenis is a great street tire, but it just doesn't compare to the Kumho in terms of performance. Eventually I just got tired of sliding around on street tires, just like I eventually got tired of hotlapping and started racing.

Like you said, it depends on how active you are going to be in the sport. But if the question is "are they worth it" then I'd definitely have to say yes.

Mr. Badlose

Good posts guys. I see exactly what your saying. I am having fun out there, but all that grip those other guys have looks intoxicating. ^_^

I just need to work on tuning out my understeer now I suppose.

Rennen

well get something other than Azenis

I have overheated them enough to get greasy on a 45 second AutoX course, I can't imagine they would be ideal for a road race course. Some of you road racers please correct me if I am wrong, but the Kumho MX gets gripper as it gets hotter while the Azenis get a greasy, so it might be a better tire to learn on.

-Matt

__________________

'89 Nissan 240SX fastback: #23 DSP/RallyMod2/Track Slut
'95 BMW 540i 6 speed: Ultimate Commuting Machine

PFM Racing
www.solo2.org
www.midwest240sx.com

sykikchimp

At LMS, the azenis would get greasy after about 2-3 really hard laps.. then I would run about 6-7/10th for a lap, and then I could run another 1-2 laps hard before they would get greasy again. What I didn't like about them is sometimes they would get greasy mid corner, and make things pretty hairy.

Once I wear this set out, I'm probably gonna move on to something else.

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ep510

I am told the Azenis gets very greasy feeling when it gets hot on the track. .
( I do not have first hand knowledge of them--but now that I am going back to an R compund from a slick--I ask for all sorts of feedback)

The Victoracer or Ecsta V700 are good long wearing tires for both AutoX and track days. Great for a budget--Racers I know prefer the Victo to the Ecsta.

The New V710 --is supposed to be really grippy--but have a short life span.

If you will not be doing AutoX--I would look into the Toyo Proxes R compound ( TA-R1? )--Very long wearing, my brother in law got to the point of not swappng them off after the track ( mostly a track day car--with some street driving) --and they kept gripping and gripping after they warmed up.

HippoSleek

DS -- I agree that there is a time to advance. I will probably be getting some RA1's this year b/c the car will likely end up a SM and b/c I need to get used to stickys. Too bad that means I'll be paying $165/ instead of $60/. At $60 for 5-10,000 miles and many track events, Azenis are hard to beat (even w/ RA1's). [and yes, I had to put up with 250 miles of thump-thump-thump on my drive home Sunday night b/c I locked up both fronts in different coners] And may mask would be better than crutch b/c too many people go to them b/f they can really max out street tires. So while they are getting around the track faster, they aren't getting around as quick as they should be given their grip b/c they haven't learned the finesse of lines and driving.

Badlose -- If the cost issue goes the other way (I know it does on P cars) and R's are cheaper than streets or if you are in the advanced group and need more or you are looking to race soon, go for it. Just make sure you are getting them for the right reasons. Wanting to go faster w/o knowing your lines and your car isn't a good one

As for the greasy thing, I hear that a lot on all types of cars and I hear the counter point that they are just being overdriven. I know in autox, people spray then with water to keep them sticky b/n runs b/c of the constant abuse (I also heard the MX absolutely sucked b/c you couldn't get enough heat in it in one session... granted this is all "heard" b/c I don't autox). On a track though, Azenis *should* have time to cool and shouldn't go away until late in the session and even then not too badly. LMS may be a bad example though b/c people say that a double at that track = at least one set of tires + one set of front pads and rotors. Try them at VIR. If you get them that hot in 2-3 laps, you are overdriving your equipment and you would ruin a set of R tires in 5 laps.

On my car at VIR I usually do a warm up lap and then start running flyers. About 10 min. in, they get are ripe for playing pitch and catch or just allowing a bit more rotation, depending. At about 20 min., they start to actually fade. And at 25-30 I have to push back my braking zones and go easy on the gear. [I've only gone 20+ min. in 90 deg. weather]

HippoSleek

The problem w/ the new V710 is that this year they are only making them in limited sizing:
205/50R15
265/45R16
275/40R17
295/40R17
315/35R17
335/35R17
315/35R18

Var

I think if you're gonna dish out the money the RA-1 is a better buy than the Kumho. I know someone who's ran his Mustang Mach 1 at the track for 8 hours and he said his times were within 2/10 of a second the whole day. He has 7500 miles on his set and they look about halfway through. I think they are the best tire out right now

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Mr. Badlose

Hmmm, buying competetion tires is for rich people.
Is "flatspotting" exactly what it sounds like? Breaking hard and wearing a flat spot into your brand new Hoosiers so it goes *lumplumplump*? I would cry if that happened to me at this stage, haha.

ep510

Yup--that is flatspotting --and yes it does suck --especially when you just got the tires........Been there, done that

jmauld

I've had good experiences with the Kumho MX's. I've had a set and they've made it through more then a year of autocrossing with a co-driver and weekend at VIR. At VIR the tires were amazing. They kept getting grippier and grippier throughout each session.

At autocross, they may never see the level of grip that you can get out of them at a track event, but they are still good enough to go head to head with Azenis. At least at a local level.

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Jason
'95 240sx SE

HippoSleek

As an update, I've heard a lot today about a bunch of the new V710s delaminating. If nothing else, I would recommend against those until they get that taken care of.

DS 240R

The Toyos are an excellent race tire- especially if they are your first. They wear well, have good performance and are forgiving. If you heat them up, they usually come right back.

I would call the Kumho (I'm talking about the V700 Ecstas and Victoracers, not the street-tire MX or new V710) a little more advanced since you'll need to have a lot more tire management skills to keep them at their best. In identically prepared cars, in my experience, the V700s are faster/stickier than the Toyos, but if you overheat the Kumhos then they will quickly turn greasy and slower. I would definitely not recommend them for high HP car or hamfisted drivers. They work great on our 145 whp NX, but are TERRIBLE on the 290 whp turbo SE-R. We switched to Toyos on that car this past weekend and it was a big improvement.

Hipposleek- SM = Spec Miata? If so, check out the contingency programs from Toyo, they are pretty good and can help reduce the cost of those tires considerably. I know Toyo has a program with NASA where you can get up to $300 "Toyo Bucks" per event weekend if you fill out the paperwork and get the stickers for your car. They also have vendors which will give discount to racers and a $15 per tire discount. Since tires are a major expense, it is worth checking out.

I guess that's another thing to consider, too. If there is any possibility for contingency or prize money by racing a certain tire, I would switch to that brand in a heartbeat since I'm on a shoe-string budget.

Competition Tires is for hard-core people. I know when I was in college, my roommate and I planned our budget around buying race tires for the season. Sometimes that was a lot of ramen for dinner!

Rennen

haha, whoops!

but if you are running the defective tires now, you get.... FREE TIRES!!!

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/kumho/kumho_710.html

one set of V700s or Victoracers for now, and a set of V710s when they get fixed, plus all mounting/unmounting/shaving/heat cycling fees

-Matt

__________________

'89 Nissan 240SX fastback: #23 DSP/RallyMod2/Track Slut
'95 BMW 540i 6 speed: Ultimate Commuting Machine

PFM Racing
www.solo2.org
www.midwest240sx.com

KA24DESOneThree

Hipposleek is absolutely right. If you overheated Azenis Sports on a 45-second autocross course, that is a driver problem. It seems like you're fighting the car in the corners, trying to force it to take a line. Tires don't like that.

Rennen

Oh yeah, on the couple runs where I overheated them, I was waaaaaaaaayyyyy past the limits of the tire. I had blown the run early on, and was having a little fun but regardless, I have done the same thing on my Rs and even my street tires and they haven't showed a remarkable decrease in traction like the Azenis did. I couldn't see a tire that doesn't respond well to heat a good tire for any sort of repeated lapping.

-Matt

__________________

'89 Nissan 240SX fastback: #23 DSP/RallyMod2/Track Slut
'95 BMW 540i 6 speed: Ultimate Commuting Machine

PFM Racing
www.solo2.org
www.midwest240sx.com

Sway500

Many racers I know tell my friends and I to use street tires and learn how to drive the race line and take them to the limit. They say this because with street tires you have to drive almost flawless to be fast while with R compounds they cover up your mistakes. Also R-compounds are worth crap when they are cold they don't stick unless they are warmed up. In my experience and racers that I know they prefer Toyo RA-1's they are really good tires. They say they can be driven on the limit on than the kumhos. Also the 710's are crap right now almost off of the East Coast Honda Challenge guys that ran them in the season opener like a week ago they came apart on them. From my understanding the SCCA banned them.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=822611
(read that link to find out more about the 710's)

okashira

8 hours of road racing and only 1/2 tire wear... I didnt think it was possible for tires to last this long??

thx247

Depends on the tire, but I've seen tube frame RX7's with 25hr enduro RA1's with another race's worth of tread life. RX is pretty easy on tires though.

sykikchimp

If only the toyo's were easier to get a hold of.

From what I've read on the 710's.. Kumho completely recalled them, and the scca removed them from the list of usable tires until kumho fixes the issue. Not really "banned", but more like on probation. Those same guys also said they set 2 lap records with the new tires and had awesome things to say about their grip.

I'm hoping Kumho can fix the issue without changing the compound.

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DS 240R

Try any of the vendors on this list- they are happy to ship and support motorsports: http://www.nasaproracing.com/news/toyo_dealers.pdf

Var

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HippoSleek

Not the T1S, the RA1.

Charles: They should be around in your size (if made). The shortage is usually only in sizes that are used by spec series in which it is the spec tire. If you want Toyos in 205/50/15 (like I do), good luck with that. The national backorder is already in place and we are only a couple races into the season!