SR Cranks but wont start. Timing perfect.

[Danger_Dorn]

Hey guys, So backstory...I swapped in my redtop into my s14 about 3 weeks ago and everything is stock. I also have a WS harness. It was running fantastic and then the heater hose popped off and I blew my head gasket. I ordered a cosworth metal headgasket with ARPs and torqued down to 90. Got everything back together including timing set right. (intake at 10, exhaust at 12, cas lined up and center, crank second from left). I go to start it and all it does is turn over. No sputter or anything. I can smell gas, and if I take the plugs out there is gas on them. I unplugged the injectors and cranked to dry out the cylinders. Waited a while and tried again with maf unplugged and all sorts of variations...nothin. So what else could it be? Ignitor maybe? Please help me out as this DD. I searched all damn day and found not much of real relevance to my specific situation. I have pics of my timing set up if you tell me its wrong. Thanks guys.

[xoxide]

This might be a dumb question but is your motor grounded to your chassis? I had this same problem ( I relocated my battery and didnt run a ground from the engine to the chassis), and My car smelled strongly of gas.

You may have also flooded your motor.

[Danger_Dorn]

thanks for the reply. Yes, i have 4 total grounds. 1 from the Intake mani to the firewall, one from the coil packs to firewall, one from head right behind the exhaust mani to wheel well/chassis, and finally the fusebox one for the harness.

[godsmack]

Did you make sure the chain didn't jump when you took off the head? Make sure that cylinder 1 is TDC and the cams are where they're supposed to be.

[Danger_Dorn]

So I know it might matter but then agian idk. The chain may have fallen off the crank when I was trying to put a new belt on so I pulled it tight to get it back on. I know it may have moved but that wouldnt make a difference as long as the cams are in the right spot right? So if I have the crank lined up, and all the slack is in between the INTAKE and CRANK right where the CHAIN TENSIONER is then the cams are lined up and cas punched right I should be good right?.

[Danger_Dorn]

Well, I went out and re re re checked my timing. It's dead on. So I has to be electrical.

[e5s4y]

ground the plugs out and check for spark? do you have the right amount of links in between the cam marks (or whatever the marker point is supposed to be)?

[ultimateirving]

Ur getting fuel and air it sounds like. Check tha spark...

[Danger_Dorn]

Yep just did the coil and plugs on the valve cover test, I had spark on all 4. I know its getting fuel because it was before and I havent messed with anything, I can smell gas and I can see it in the cylinders. My maf was good before my head gasket change and it didnt move so thats fine. My ignitor works since Im getting spark. I has to be timing but everything is where its supposed to be

[Danger_Dorn]

Tried to post pictures...Zilvia failed at doing so

[ultimateirving]

Well do you have Conzult? turn the ignition on, set the crank manually to 0TDC, then hook up conzult and see if it reads 0 also. If its different then maybe the CAS if off a tooth. Only other thing that i can think of to trouble shoot

[Danger_Dorn]

No i dont have a consult. I just tried moving my cas around all crazy ways to see if it catches...nothing. It ran perfect before. Im out of ideas :bash:

[Kriskouki]

I think you might have a flooding problem.....Check ECU's grounding........But, be sure that you connect all the connectors into the right position.....Another thing is to check the CAS because it tells the ECU what degree the timing you are at, which relates to the fuel trim.......According to what you told, the ignition seems okay.......As I said, be sure that you have plugged in all the connectors/sensors securely......Also, be sure you plug in MAF when starting the car......

[ultimateirving]

Yeah man, you probably skipped or overlooked something upon reassembly. Its easy to do especially since you had to pull the head off. Grounds or connectors need to be reevaluated

[Danger_Dorn]

Just went out and looked over everything...still nothing. I really dont want to pay someone to do my timing...it would be bs and shameful lol. I am honestly out of ideas. Just cranks and cranks. I smell fuel and i know the plugs are sparking. FML

[jilo]

if you have fuel air and spark, theres a good chance its a mechanical timing issue. to make sure, do the one thing nobody mentioned. check the ignition timing with a timing light/gun. also does the engine sound like it has good or bad compression? you may be off a tooth or so..

[Danger_Dorn]

I cant check it with a light if it doest start....i dont have a compression tester but I just put in a cosworth 1.8mm gasket with arp's at 90ft lbs. i also got the head cleaned and decked but that doesnt explain anything

[army240]

It's not because you have spark with the spark plugs off that they do fire when bolted in the head.

I know it's may sound stupid, but with the pressure inside the cylinder as well as the air/fuel mixture it's more difficult for the spark to happen.

It did happen to me and I did change the 4 plugs and it fired right away. I'm not saying that this is your problem, but it's a cheap and easy thing to change.

Frank

[ultimateirving]

Hold the boat a minute,
Did you replace the spark plugs with new ones after the blown HG?

[StryfeS13]

Friends SR used to do this. His car would flood and we'd pull out the fuel pump fuse and crank it till it started, then put the fuse back in. Try that yet?

[Danger_Dorn]

No i havent replaced them. Should I? I have unplugged the injectors, cranked it dry then plugged them back up. Same thing. Crank and car no worky

[Danger_Dorn]

Just replaced the spark plugs with BKR6E's...nothing. This is starting to annoy me. Just flipped the CAS 180. Still nothing. WTF!

[StryfeS13]

If you pull out your spark plugs and crank the engine does it shoot out fuel like a whale? Lol. Sure way to know if it's flooded.

I still think your timing is off. Hopefully nothing is damaged if the timing was off.

[Danger_Dorn]

I hope so too but I dont know what could be off timing wise. Everything is where it should be according to FSM. i took out my CAS and turned it by hand, all 4 injectors clicked

[StryfeS13]

Post a video of it and show us how it sounds while cranking and we can immediately tell you just by sound if your mechanical timing is off.

[Danger_Dorn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djdrXOhigUQ&feature=youtu.be

[StryfeS13]

It doesn't sound like it even has that much compression in that video...

Hopefully you didn't get your timing wrong in the first place and bend a valve or put a hole in a piston lol

[Kriskouki]

Most of the time that the car won't start, I would look at battery, fuel and spark.....But, it seems that you have done all.....

Now you may want to look into your mechanical work you have done......If the car start before the head gasket failure, it should be started now......I am sure no electrical components would failed by the time you have done your head gasket thing.......

Check your timing as if you are out of timing, it won't start anyways......

Lastly, do the compression test.....It will tell you many of things.....One important thing is will will tell how you that the valves are leaking or not, which will also lead to your camshaft/timing setup on your system......

[jilo]

your mechanical timing is off, check it again. then check with a timing light. you cant cheat the system.

[Danger_Dorn]

So I have checked it and checked it and checked it again. I have my intake at 10 my exhaust at 12 (A little past) and there are 11 links from the first dot to the second. The crank is at 2nd from let (13 btdc) and I lined up the CAs with the right dot so when I push it in it goes to the left dot and lines up. After centering and bolting it in, I crank and still nothing. GETTING FUEL AND SPARK! Should I try taking off my gears and everything again? THIS SUCKS! Its my DD and monday is rolling around fast. Thanks errrbody.:bash:

[codyace]

Sounds like you're not assembling the mechanical side of it right at all.


- Set engine to TDC. THis is second mark from the left, or 0* with the first cylinder being up all the way too.

- Make sure first cam lobes are facing completly opposite of each other (9 and 3)

- Take out the tensioner

-Locate the cam dowel pins. You want them at 10 and 12ish

- Look at the little dots on the gears. This gives you the starting point/tooth 1 on both cams

- Looking at the exhaust side, count the number of teeth on the gear between it and the head flange for valve cover. Between 8 and 9 teeth

-Do the same on the intake. You're looking at between 4.5 to 5.5 teeth

-Count the pins on the timing chain between both of the dots I mention above. 20 pins exactly.

-Put tensioner back in, and crank engine over with a wratchet. Do this a few times and then bring back to TDC and reconfirm the alignment.



Hope that helps. Install the CAS then after you sort the above.

[codyace]

I tried doing a quick google search for pictures if you're visual

http://jimwolftechnology.com/wolfpdf/CAMINSTALLINSTFORSR20.PDF

Installing Tomei Poncams on S13 SR20DET (http://www.frsport.com/Installing-Tomei-Poncams-on-S13-SR20DET_t_35.html)

SR20 Setup Tips (http://www.plmsdevelopments.com/sr_setup_tips.shtml)

[Danger_Dorn]

Thanks alot brother, Ill go follow your instructions and try again.

[Danger_Dorn]

Still something off...I got it to stumble finally like its firing on 1 cyl or something...still timing? Nothing could have possibly gone wrong electronic wise during the week of my head off. Everything is exactly like ^. Best I can get is one contant "Chug"? It feels like its still out of timing. Anything else I should try? Maybe moving teeth one way or the other with the cams?

[codyace]

Loosen the distributor and crank it all the way in one direction (and try starting) and then the other way (and try starting it). You could be off a tooth for sure still, it's got to be precise

With that said, your plugs aren't potentially fouled are they?

[Danger_Dorn]

If the cam timing was off what are the chances of bent valves? I didnt hear anything crazy but the exhaust cam was off by one tooth. It should still start up though right?

[Danger_Dorn]

Well its got a cas but yeah i have tried that. They are brand new plugs. I just cranks and i will be like *wee wee wee blub wee wee blub blub* It will keep trying to kinda fire on one cyl if I keep cranking it. If I let off the ignition it sometimes chokes at like 100 rpm then dies. Not sure what else to do other than hand it over to a shop.

[codyace]

Is the injector/maf correct for the ECU? Are both wired up properly too?

I'd start looking into troubleshooting other sensors now.

[ultimateirving]

YOu can you check the ecu for codes? if it says anything is out of norm

[Danger_Dorn]

the maf was good before when it was running and I have no ecu codes. its gotta be timing still but I know its good. Ill post another video tomorrow of the timing components, grounds, cranking, and spark plugs

[ultimateirving]

Try restabbing the cas maybe i dunno?

[Danger_Dorn]

This is so lame! I have stabbed the CAS many different ways. Is it possible that the Ignitor chip isnt giving a strong enough of a signal?

[inopsey]

This is so lame! I have stabbed the CAS many different ways. Is it possible that the Ignitor chip isnt giving a strong enough of a signal?

have you not checked for spark? first 3 things to check for on an engine that wont start are fuel compression and spark.

[Danger_Dorn]

I did check for spark. I just posted a video to youtube of all my timing and spark. I was saying maybe their not getting enough spark

[ultimateirving]

Did any water get on the coil packs ?

[Danger_Dorn]

here is a more detailed video of my timing and stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B68diptqOH4

[e5s4y]

here is a more detailed video of my timing and stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B68diptqOH4

video is private?

do a compression test also just to check for any irregularities. that first video sounded SUPER weird

[Danger_Dorn]

There I set it to public. Yeah it is weird sounding but all of my timing matches up. That first one might have sounded weird due to an 11 volt battery so it was kind of weak

[idahotuner]

cody is spot on a lot of people think you use the dimples but its the dowels , on the cams. 10 and 12 with the dowels. tdc on piston 1

[Danger_Dorn]

Well i posted a video of it all on youtube, everything is exactly as cody said

[e5s4y]

what does a new compression test yield? also, idk if its just me, but is it cranking super slow?

[godsmack]

Did you stick a screw driver down cylinder 1 to make sure that you are at TDC? Could be 180 degrees out.

[Danger_Dorn]

Its at compression stroke TDC. The ecu was fried so i'm gonna get another one and see what happens. This is the 3rd ECU that fried lol. The first 2 came to me fried.

[Danger_Dorn]

So I have a stock redtop what ECU is best? Stock 62,63,e5,e6? Does it matter between these?

[FourtyKid]

So I have a stock redtop what ECU is best? Stock 62,63,e5,e6? Does it matter between these?


E5 is from a 94-96 180sx black top 5 speed
E6 is from a 94-96 180sx blacktop automatic
"RED" WC is from a 95-96 S14 Silvia zenki
"BLACK" WC is from a 96-97 S14 Chuki (transition, different maf plug)
NA is from a 97-98 s14 Silvia kouki 5-speed
62 is from a 91-93 180sx or S13 Silvia 5 speed
63 is from a 91-93 180sx or S13 Silvia automatic
J4 is from a 97-98 180sx Type X 5speed
J5 is 97-98 Type-X Automatic


Also,


S14 Zenki SR20's with Red WC ECUs will have a Rectange MAF plug
S14 chuki sr20's with black WC ECUs will have the oval MAF plug,
S14 Kouki SR20's with black NA ECU will have oval maf plug

62, 63, E5, E6, are all interchangable and will run any 5-speed 91-96 SR20DET S13
J4 and J5 will plug into but will not work on the pre 97 S13 SR20DET's without moving about 6 wires at the ECU plug.
Red and black WC/WE Ecus for S14 sr20's are interchangable, just watch the maf plug difference.
S15 maf (oval plug) and S14 Oval Maf's are interchangable.
But black NA ECU has a smaller plug, and simply will not fit on the pre 97- S14 SR20DET harnesses.

[Kriskouki]

So I have a stock redtop what ECU is best? Stock 62,63,e5,e6? Does it matter between these?

What you need to do is do more research.....As far as I know one ECU only matches with certain P/N of the MAF....For example, WC red ECU for s14 SR20DET can only be used with 69F00 MAF.....

So, I have no idea what's your P/N for the MAF, but it needs to be compatible with the ECU......

Lastly, it's not good at all that the ECU has been fried very often......The ECU lasts forever has long as nothing is wrong on the system....Once the problem has been solved and the ECU still got fried, an in-depth troubleshooting/analysis may be needed.....

Hope the problem solved very soon

[codyace]

Well i posted a video of it all on youtube, everything is exactly as cody said

Your timing is spot on...in fact that should be linked to most new guys as it's a great video/description of how it should be setup :D



With that said, you're got no fuel on 3 cylinders. I'd look into the ECU's you are using as for them not to fire 3 of 4, you've probably got some injector drivers fried out. They are rebuildable/repairable (through the right person) so don't fret.

[Danger_Dorn]

Well I guess a mod should sticky a link to that video then. Anyway, I do in fact have fuel on all 4 cylinders I know cuz when i pulled the plugs out they were wet. I left them out so I dont wash out piston rings, thats how my KA went out. Im going to try a new 62 ecu and a new eccs relay. I was thinking about an AEM or Tomei or something like that you know? I was hoping to maybe find something more....sturdy (like a lobster). But once again I cant afford to break the bank so oem used looks like my main option.

[Danger_Dorn]

I have an s13 motor with a 52f00 maf. I was running an E5 ec before.

[Danger_Dorn]

So...did a compression test today. Found out cylinder 4 (one closest to the firewall?) was the only one with compression at about 100. The other cylinders had 0. Not sure whats going on. Cosworth Metal headgasket, Arp headstuds torqued to 90, copper tack spray on both sides of the HG. I dont know what else to do or if I should do a tear down and put new piston rings in...This is my DD and its already been down for like a month between waiting on parts and BS. Thanks

[ultimateirving]

So...did a compression test today. Found out cylinder 4 (one closest to the firewall?) was the only one with compression at about 100. The other cylinders had 0. Not sure whats going on. Cosworth Metal headgasket, Arp headstuds torqued to 90, copper tack spray on both sides of the HG. I dont know what else to do or if I should do a tear down and put new piston rings in...This is my DD and its already been down for like a month between waiting on parts and BS. Thanks

Wow thats pretty crazy man, I would get a leak down test to see what the results say.

[Danger_Dorn]

No where around here has a leakdown :picardfp: I just want the damn thing to run so Ill probably be passing it off to a shop for new rings, bearings and valve seals. How much should all that be? 1K? Maybe more? :bash: Sick of this damn car right now. Sorry for the rant but you know how it is.

[codyace]

Avoid a shop for as long as you can, unless there is a reputable one near you.

I'd be willing to bet it's the HG not sealing.

[Kingtal0n]

0psi? are you sure? that sounds wrong, even a bad set of rings will get you 60-90psi of compression. Even if half the top of the piston is missing/melted you should still get something. Do more testing. pull the head if you have to.

Did you get the block decked at any point and forget to deck the oil pump? Was anyone ever in the bottom end? pull the valvecover and watch the valves open and close, and check the cam timing.

***edit
I watched your video. The only extra thing I can think of is improper torque sequence of head studs, which you shouldnt even be using unless you decked the block with a torque plate attached.
If I was in your situation, I would double check the compression first, and do a leakdown test, to verify where your compression is going. Buy one on ebay if you have to. I found one at harbor freight in a pinch, used and returned it.

[Danger_Dorn]

Thanks guys Ill try to hunt down a leakdown tester. As far a torque sequence, I did it according to ARP's and the FSM directions and they are torqued to 90 :-/ So I guess Ill get back to you with the results. Any sounds I should be listening for if I turn the motor over manually such as air whooshing or whatever?

[Kingtal0n]

Thanks guys Ill try to hunt down a leakdown tester. As far a torque sequence, I did it according to ARP's and the FSM directions and they are torqued to 90 :-/ So I guess Ill get back to you with the results. Any sounds I should be listening for if I turn the motor over manually such as air whooshing or whatever?

I thought of something while I was falling asleep.

Take out all of the plugs. crank the engine. It should turn over smoothy, fast. air should whoosh right out of the spark plug holes. (verify this)

Now, install just 1 single spark plug and crank again. the motor should still turn smoothly, but when it hits that one cylinder, it should slow down and make obvious compression noises.

do that for each plug, and determine if the engine sounds different on different cylinders. If what you say is true about #4, then it should only really slow down on #4.

again, did somebody deck the block and forget to deck the oil pump? I am still having a hard time believing 0psi on 1-3.
To me, if that was any old random motor, I would just install some new plugs and watch it fire right up.

[Danger_Dorn]

Thanks, Ill give that ^ a try man. I have cranked and cranked and it will just sputter on 1 cyl (#4). Now all I can think is 1, maybe washed out piston rings from flooding but in that case i would still have SOME kind of compression. I dont know. My next guess was that the head gasket didnt seal right considering that 1: I didnt deck the block at all, and 2: I used a cosworth 1.8 mm metal hg. So maybe it didnt seal right? :-/ I would love to hand it over to a shop and make them deal with it but thats 1300 bones or so compared to doing it myself for 300?

[Danger_Dorn]

UPDATE! Best shop in town (1 of 3 lol) has informed me that they can rebuild everything like main bearings, piston rings, HG blah blah for 5-600 bucks. All I have to do is pull the motor and voilla! Glad my motor is easy as hell to take out. 4 Hours tops I think... :angel:

[Danger_Dorn]

Yeah so reviving my own thread. Got my motor back from the shop and still....you guessed it, NOTHING. Same as when I dropped it off. Im about to take the car and motor up there this monday and say make it work or we're going to have problems. Compression on 1 and 4. 2 and 3 still dead. Got new everything (bearings, rings, metal HG, decked head and block, new valve seals, ARP rod bolts, ARP Head studs, new valve shims and guides, new timing chain kit) Yeah....so Im at a loss. Any Ideas?

[OnTheChip]

Are you sure your compression tester is working?

[cotbu]

You need to do that leak down! You're just shooting in the dark if all you have is no compression on 2 and 3. You could put this to bed if the block is damaged or the rings are toast, etc. Leak down, and/or tear down and install a stock head gasket just for testing.

[Danger_Dorn]

Hello friends! Got the problem solved. The whole time it was not enough cranking amps to make oil PSI for the lifters! We put 200A through that bish and it fired right up. Now I'm having misfire issues but thats a diff thread :mad: