sykikchimp

Some things I've read, and some conversations I've had recently have caused me to do a little re-evaluation of my personal goals. I thought I might share this with you guys, and get your input..

It's so easy to get caught up in the mentality that you are modding a car for the track. To "help" make you faster/better. What you eventually realize (or are slapped in the face with) is that modding the car, and Tracking the car are two totally seperate hobbies. They are related, but not.

Something I noticed with my latest round of mods is that I ended up somewhat unfullfilled after completing them. Sure the car is great, feels awesome, but does it help me at the track? The initial impression would be "Yes" to most. It would seem that wider tires & wheels, and bigger brakes would all make me faster at the track. And essentially they do increase the potential. The reality is, the answer is a resonding NO.. as a matter of fact, it's KEEPING ME OFF the track b/c I'm F*in BROKE from buying crap I don't even have the skills to utilize.

Recent epiphany: $4000 worth of Track time is > $4000 engine

Sure, I'd love to have the fastest, most powerful street driven 240 ever. It's loads of fun researching parts, buying them, and putting them on the car.. But I've discovered (old news to anyone who races) that Seat time in a Slow POS on an open track is loads more rewarding than spending money on a new suspension part.

I'm beginning to look at it from more of a philisophical POV.. I work hard to make my money.. Why not spend it on improving myself, not improving my things. I come away from a weekend at the track worn out, but feeling like a million bucks. I come away from replacing perfectly good componants on my car with other perfectly good componants simply "worn out"...

Maybe this is just a re-evaluation of my priorities, but maybe it's a realization of what my priorities where all along...

thoughts?

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MovinUp-1

you must embrace the zen of motorsports, chimp-san. First modification to enhance performance should be tightening nut behind wheel.

hehe, it's always difficult to stay within a budget when it comes to racing. And you will find that the parts that made the car 2 seconds faster when you first started racing are a lot cheaper than the parts that are going to make you 2 tenths faster after you hve experience, if that makes any sense.

i've been autocrossing for quite some time so I that I gain more from modifications than someone who is just starting. Why? Because that beautiful cusco control arm doesn't lower your lap time if you're off the racing line anyway. I always tell new guys at the track when they ask me what parts they should get for their car first, Isay a harness to keep them in the seat so they can concentrate on driving.

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Allen
Delta Region SCCA
SM 1990 240SX SR20DET

Dousan_PG

i hear ya bro..but im sorta opposite
my suspension mods (exactly same as yours) cost me total of about 1800 or so...maybe bit less. a lot of it was free or heavily discounted. the tire fund is about mmm 1200=1600 in the past year..ouch.

anyways, yeah. that' why im DONE w/ suspension and off to body work and engine. handling graet is fantastic but i need power too. its more fun


right now, cutting back on track time and focusing on a few other points of my car..body and engine. i cant keep away from teh track or some serious 'spirited driving' but cutting back on track tiem can help my wallet recover and get the rest of my life (non car related) in order both financially and relationship wise

anyways..keeep working hard!
mitgh start doing some auto-x..
its a lot cheaper then a track event! for sure..

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Aaron
Pink GodziRa
www.geocities.com/pink_godzira

MovinUp-1

And as Randy Pobst and other pro racers have said "Autocrossers always make great road racers, but road racers never make great autocrossers".

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Allen
Delta Region SCCA
SM 1990 240SX SR20DET

sykikchimp

Movinup-1 - I have heard that so many times.. "Make yourself faster, not your car".. "with experience, and practice comes speed".. What I was missing in those statements was the "ME" part.. I was focusing too much on the "Fast" part. What I'm realizing is that going fast isn't the goal, being fast is. (That sounds confusing, but maybe you can understand.)

Dousan - I love my car. Matter of fact sometimes I think I love it too much. The other day, I left my window down all night.. there was a thunderstorm. When I found out the next morning, I almost had to vomit. I was SO upset. It made me ask myself why I care so much about a freakin' car!? I see it like this. Everything I do is an extension of myself. The things I really enjoy, and are a part of me, I put a lot of energy into. I know that I'm not perfect, and I wish I were. When striving for this "perfection" sometimes we look to improve things in ourselves that don't necessarily need to be improved. Yet. That energy would be better spent on another aspect of improving ourselves. I believe I'm finding my energy would have been better spent in another way. i.e. Track time. It's going to be different for everybody. This all just made me realize that I need to concentrate more specifically on what I want to do, and pay less attention to what others want/expect me to do. It's a very hard separation to make.

I think what I'm trying to do in my life right now is figure out how to weigh what my priorities are. And then spend my energy in the appropriate proportions to be truly happy. It's seemingly an endless balancing act as the weights are never the same from moment to moment.


Charles - simply walking the path

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AKADriver

Everything I've modified on my car has been fixing broken stuff. It's a good way to go... especially in a car as old as many of ours.

Being a tightwad comes naturally to me, but I know we can't all be gifted like that Also, living in an apartment has sapped a lot of my tinkering desires, since I now need to make plans with friends if I want to wrench, which isn't bad but I hate imposing.

I have justified mods to myself when I just wasn't happy with something, though. The groaning rear body, or having my front tires wear outside first, or having to spend more time managing understeer than anything else, or slamming into the speed limiter... these are things I can fix without great expense. But grip, power... these are things I'd love to have, but they just aren't critical to my overall enjoyment of driving at the track. Truth is, I don't even notice that my car is slow until I'm giving people passes without lifting at all

I'm sure you've been reading some of those threads on Honda-Tech... They've been a good kick in the *** for me to STOP thinking about any sort of real racing until I've got something of a stable life. HPDEing is a great place for me to be, since I can bring a street car, have fun, and walk away at the end of the weekend knowing that if I don't come back for months I won't have given up a championship. And my car doesn't have to be 100%... it just needs to be safe, not fast.

I just bought a set of tasty Sparco 5-point cam-lock harnesses, both sides, dirt cheap from a friend that bought and didnt use them... I can't wait to get a roll bar so I can install these babies

sykikchimp

I'm pretty sure thats where any future money I spend is going.. Safety gear. and maybe removing that damn rev limiter. I hate that thing.

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crioten

ive just gotten into autocross (been driving in 2 events) and i love it, but im facing the same delima as you...

what should i get for my car? suspension stuff/tires are great, and so are engine mods. but what and why should i go for this? ive seen old autoxers out there laying down fantastic times in the same car/setup as me, but i suck (i know ive only gone 2 times...) so it makes me wonder why should i do anything to my car, if they can do better w/ nothing, which i know sounds weird.

i think its the natural progression to what you eventually want, dont tell me you didnt enjoy taking pics of your new coilovers or 300zx break up grades, and showing em off on this site and whatever...i know this has a little to do with what you want, and if you think about it too much, it can also have a negative impact on doing any mods to your car too...

it can make you think "is this the only reason why im doing this? to make people jealous and wonder what next great thing im going to do to my car?" dont think like that, after all, its you doing these things to your car, your hard earned money, and its you getting all the good feelings from what youve done. dont care what others say about what you like/dislike...

in fact disregard this whole post, dont care what others say

but it prolly a down time where going to the track is not as exciting as it used to be for you...make bets with someone or something to get ya going again...from my whopping 17 years of exp. ive found out that everything gets real boring after a while and i need to change/liven something up...

just my hella 2 cents

-glen

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IMG exceeds forum limit of 150kb

AceInHole

hmmmm....
here's some random babble from a "sophomore" autocrosser:

I always tell my friends to improve the driver before the car, yet my neighbor and novice autocrosser is always complaining about how he needs new coilovers, or better brakes. I keep trying to show him that he can still go a lot faster without spending money... the last few autox's with fun runs I drove his car a few seconds faster than his fastest run, with what I thought was a bad run for me (switching to FWD and losing all your awesome steering response...eewwwww).
My problem... is that I haven't been able to get a better driver behind the wheel of my own car to really let me know that it's ME holding things up....

It really sucks now cause it feels like I've reached a wall. I'm not sure if it's the car not gripping well enough, or the driver taking a bad line. I'm at the point where I can take the line I want, and experiment with variations in the line, but just can't seem to break past the time I need to place where I'd like to in the field. The faster I try to take the line, the worse things get. So... could it be that my GR2 front struts finally gave out on me?? Maybe my skinny Dunlop FM901's are quitting on me?? Is my boost trailing off where I need it most??

The questions like that make me wish I was running a G-stock car with victoracers from the beginning.... with a slower car you can concentrate more on the driving. You have time to see the line you want, and visualize goung through it as it comes up. You can see where you want to be a few more corners ahead. That's one thing I definitely noticed when taking slower cars out for fun runs at the end of the day. Compare that to hitting 9psi out of the start gate.... flying through the first sweeping gates into a tight slalom... everything comes up so fast, and your braking points become even more important, whereas in a slower car there's less of a need to have it timed perfectly.

But, I guess at the point I'm at now... where it feels like I've hit a wall, getting rid of a few options like grip and boost drop-off seem to be good ideas. Guess I'll find out this weekend when I get to take on a double header with much wider and stickier tires, combined with a fixed boost drop-off problem and a few other things like a modified stock S14 seat....

Cliff's notes:
A. Driver definitely more important than car setup.
B. Slower car better to learn how to drive on.
C. Hitting a "wall" may be the time to start thinking of mods.

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fastpace

Man sykikchimp I am going through the same situation. I have been autocrossing for pretty much a year, ever since I got my 240 and love every minute of it. I am okay, but still don't feel that I am were I am suppose to be. I am so hard on myself because I want to see improvement in my driving at a rapid pace. I would get mad at myself because I am used to learning something that I like and being good at it with little experience. So would ask people about certain tips and advice to improve my times. But I have just stopped because I don't go to events as much due to the summer and feel that it isn't my main concern. But it seems recently that I don't feel as motivated to go to autocross events and would rather mod my car. I have also started to get practice in drifting at a practice meet. I have recently upgraded a couple of suspension parts on my car and feel that it is good, but haven't really used it for its purposes. I to feel at times that I do things so that other people can marvel at my mods. It is getting to the point right now that most of my money goes to my car. I don't really care about what is happening to me as long as my car is running well. I need some new clothes and shoes, but that isn't on my mind.

I am just a college student and have these big plans for my car, but the type of income that I have doesn't allow for that. I think the best thing I can do right now is not even worry about modifying my car, but just drive it and improve my driving as I go along.

I believe that there is a hype as in just modding a car. And I have just recently relieved that that is what I am doing. But I think that I will learn from this experience and ask the question, what is the main purpose of modding my car?

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life is what you make of it!!!!

"well, I go out, I do the practice, I think about it and I concentrate on one small thing I can change that will have an effect. I make that change then I go out and drive to my maximum." -Ayrton Senna

radhaz

Sykik, I think you just did what any good tech does. You found something to be fixed and set to work to fix it (faster track times). Now you're at the natural stage of stepping back and evaluating your efforts. Your improvements to your car shouldn't be discounted, you just have other area's to address and you already know what they are so relax and have fun working on your mad track skills.

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Need a 96 driver side window switch. Feel free to pm me with a price

HippoSleek

I understand your pain. Like Ryan, I too went with minimal mods and more seat time. There were times when it really ****ed me off, like the flat esses at VIR or Hog Pen (where I'd bottom the front suspension and start rolling the sidewalls... and/or lose grip ). But, as a general rule, I'd wager I got so much more fun out of being out there -- even when two sections sucked -- then pumping 4 track weekends worth of money into a suspension. Because of that, I resisted modifying the car as long as possible (that and that more than a year ago I realized the 240 wasn't the car I'd take to the next level).

If there is one place to spend money (after brakes), it is safety gear. At this point, I own everything but a suit and the car will have full harnesses and a seat w/n the next week (in addition to the 4pt, dual diag. bar). Two weeks ago, I was at an event where "Lifeflight" took away an instructor (who has since recovered) after a student rolled. This is seriout sh!t we are doing.

Having recently traded to a reasonably well sorted Miata, I have the opportunity to see some of what I was missing. A bit more speed in the corners (except summit 10, where I formerly relied on torgue instead of balls) and a lot less fear of having the car not turn b/c the suspension is already overworked. What I did NOT miss in the stock 240 was having a damb good time out there. The Miata isn't really any more fun b/c its not the car, its the driver.

One thing I really advise is NOT timing yourself out there. You can add more power, more grip, more suspension, etc. and make the times go down, but that has nothing to do with how good you are driving or how much fun you are having. While its awfully "zen," focus on the track. On the line. On feeling the car. You'll know when you had a good run without a stopwatch. Moreover, you won't be discouraged or upset by the fact that you were slower in one session (or one weekend) than another. There are too many factors to judge your performance exclusively on a stopwatch.

The other thing is to accept that being the fastest isn't being the best. At this point, my goal it to get out there and have fun while honing my skills. Being one of the slowest cars in my group 2 weeks ago was very humbling. But it made me realize that as you move up through the groups, you may feel slower. Running a FATT in Group 2, there was one other NA Miata and after that, I think the next slowest car (besides me) would have been an ITR! Running with more experienced groups where most of the people have (a) been doing this for a while and (b) many have fast cars of the V8 or Porsche variety, helps you to accept that you are not going to be the fasest car on the track. As you move up, you won't have great stories about how you rolled a Vette or an ITR -- b/c now they are driving at the same skill level and are using more of their car. This is the long way of saying that unless you are the second coming of Michael Schumacher and can shove a well set up 240 around the track faster than a good driver in a z06, you will not be the fastest. That said, focusing on YOU and not your time or your car will be the only way to judge your success.

At this level, the destination is the ride, not a winner's circle. Not to put this on a Special Olympics tip, but at a track day, everyone should win -- the only way you don't is if you aren't there or you focus on trying to reach some winner's circle that doesn't exist.

nocomedown

i personally think it's all about the potential of both the driver and the car. someone who has the ability to push a completely stock car to its limits will do far better (and have a hell of a lot more fun) than someone who has poured a ton of money into go-fast mods but cannot utilize them.
unless you can use the full potential of the car as it is, it's really not beneficial to spend your life's savings into modifying it

sykikchimp

ABsoLutelY!

Life changes are a comin'...

Mark - you always have a way of putting things into perspective.

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Bbandit

wow sykik.. i felt exactly the same!
i thought fastpace and me are the only ones in this world who felt like that...

now lets start a club

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==>>TGL GARAGE<<==.. RIP!
S13 coupe KA-T @ 0.5 Bar = SOLD!
A31 Cefiro + SR = Current

DIRK

hey, sykik, i'm really liking this topic because i'm in a similar situation i feel. i bought my S14 because it was cheaper than the S13 i actually wanted, had low miles, and was in good shape and adult driven. it didn't have everything i wanted (manual trans. for instance) but i felt that was a minor thing i could change later down the line. it's my daily driver and i enjoy it everyday. when it come's to mods, i had all sorts if big *** plans for the car. but the longer i've had the car, the less importance ive put on the things i'd planned to do. everytime i look up a part on the internet and price it, i fall short on clicking "add to cart" because that money could go to bills, improving my home and it's furnishings, or on just the things i want like clothes and stuff. not to say i don't still work on the car, but i guess i realized that maybe some of the things i wanted to do weren't totally for me, but for the approval of other's. or maybe jus to say i did it so people i don't know can crowd around my car at an event? so with that said i've been stepping back from the "big picture" a little bit. a part here, replace a worn one there, week by week.i'm making my car into the daily driven, daily enjoyed, low boost KA turbo car i'd like it to be instead of the JDM tyte 500 RWHP silvia clone every 15 year old that see's it needs it to be. what good is 10 grand in mods when a persons driving skills aren't worth a dime?

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if someone eats the D for the first time, is that initial D????????

sykikchimp

Talk about hitting the nail on the head. That is exactly where I'm coming from.

At this point, the ONLY thing I KNOW I want to do is Race. I don't know what I want to race, where, with what org. I'm still wading through the murky waters of indecision.

So.. I figure if I must mod the car. I'm buying safety equipment. Undoubtably the best bang for the buck mods you can do.

Roll Bar - $350
Harnesses - $250
Race Suit - $400
Not being crushed/thrown through window/burned alive in the worst crash possible from something that had nothing to do with you, your car, or your skill - PRICELESS!

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hurleyboi514

hell yeah charles, i know exactly what u mean. after this weekend, my mod list had changed completely. before, i was deciding how i wanted to go turbo. haha, i dont need a turbo, the 155 hp ka is enough to keep me busy right now. hell, i passed a Z06 this weekend!! i believe mods will come after track time though b/c my car is very capabale of being on the track and not failing on me. its been done right, im glad i didnt **** anything up. i want to keep autox'ing, and keep going to the driving schools b/c the better i get, the faster the car will go. it had nothing to do with the parts on the car, they just help when you get good enough to exploit them. i mean, if i had a good driver in a lightly modded car (koni's, springs, swaybars), or a novice in a tricked out 240 (ohlins, all whiteline, whatever), the skilled driver will be fast in the end and have more money left! its all in what your goals are. i'd like to be the best racer i could possible become. i think of it as preparing for whatever racing series i endevor in. and trust me, i WILL be racing in a real series someday, be it a grass roots kind like the honda challenge, or F1 (hey, i can dream!! )

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HighTach Motorsports

AceInHole

but.... the skilled driver has already spent his life savings on seat time and be flat broke (or in debt).

it's not about saving money, it's about how you'd rather spend your money. someone once said "Racing still costs the same now as it did 30 years ago: every last cent you have." If it happens you've got an extra $20, you go autocross. If you've got $200, you go to the track.

For me... I can't mod the car to really be more competative, because my competition is my co-driver. I still mod the car, though, because the level of competition I'm going for requires it (National Solo II competition). While that happens, though, we modify the car so that we can make better use of the driving abilities we have, while attempting to better our abilities. So as long as you have the mentality to improve yourself as well as the car, you should be fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with modifying the car to get faster, as long as you know the car being faster won't do anything untill you can drive the car faster.

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DIRK

hey sykik, i almost forgot to ask how u did out there at hyperfest, there were so many delays and it was soo dayum hottttt i went back to the hotel for a little bit(i'm james by the way, guy that left u and rach some cokes, chatted for a bit) and came back for the drift competition. anyway i'm having the same thoughts u are basically. i've already lighty modded my car but i've decided to invest money into the most important part of the car's competitive performance: me. get a nice seat, harnesses, etc. so i'm comfortable and can concentrate without worrying about someone hitting me and flying through the windshield or whatever the case.i know S14 seats are supposed to be pretty good, but since i don't drive with a gangsta lean with the seat back on the rear sear cushion, it's starting to suck, lol. i'd love to get my hands on a GTR seat or a nice sparco, i think pdm racing has them pretty reasonable

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if someone eats the D for the first time, is that initial D????????

AceInHole

They're even better if you pop the seat cushion off and bend the side rails in a bit (and of course put the cushion back on). It's still no Sparco Speed or Corbeau Forza though.

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sykikchimp

This is all true, unless your in a spec class, or have gotten your race car sorted to your liking. Then all your money goes to consumables (brakes, tires, body panels..),and entry fees, and travel expenses. Racing is probably one of THE premiere ways to dispose of money.

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AceInHole

Even in a Spec Class more tires/ rain tires... dyno tuning for the extra few HP... corner weighting... better tools because you fear your sockets are all now worn and about to strip a bolt... new driving shoes.... a better trailer... a new air tank.... that pyrometer you've always wanted.... more power for your tow vehicle.... but mostly: track time to practice on.

I was actually privelidged enough to get to see THE SICKEST race setup ever, during the double header autocross for the NER season.

Tow vehicle: Top of the line fully furnished feather-lite coach
Trailer: top of the line feather-lite enclosed trailer
(Go here to DROOL
Race Car: Lotus Europa without a single bit of Lotus Europa left. Walking by it, I think I saw my first and only Ford Racing Cosworth engine.... not to mention the REAL carbon fiber body (not just stupid carbon fiber matting with crappy resin. This thing was probably supposed to see life on the space shuttle).



I thought I was done with my car earlier this year.... but now with a National Championship looking as though it could be a reality..... my own process of modding starts all over again (with something that could rival a JGTC GT300 car)

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SE-Rfornow

This is kind of funny that you bring this up because not long ago I posted a thread on turboforum.net about this exact subject. Although it had a little less to do with the track and more with the street, it's pretty close...

Last night I realized what is important in the performance of a car for me.

I received a phone call that I had to be at a very important place in PA right away and I was in Maryland. So to get there, I had to have the power to "double line" multiple cars in short amounts of time and maintain safely speeds in excess of 100mph through twisty backroads. I normally wouldn't do anything as crazy as this unless I knew the roads like the back of my hand and knew that there wasn't anyone going to be on them (please don't think I'm reckless or a street racer), but extenuating circumstances had come up.

I am so happy I was in my SE-R last night because I had done most of the things to it that the situation required. I went with turbo instead of nitrous, I balanced the car with bigger brakes and a few suspension mods, I doubled the thickness of the radiator, and I upgraded the headlights a few days ago.

If I had a nitrous powered car, the power would have run out and I would have been spending more time worrying about accelerating around cars and on straights than on actually driving and predicting my path.

If I had a slammed car, the many bumps and potholes my suspension ate up would have unbalanced the car and possibly caused an accident.

If I had an all show and no go car, I wouldn't have been able to do near anything like what I did. I was driving at the limits, but I knew that I had boost and brakes to do it safely.

Because of the modification path I chose with my limited funds, I was able to be at probably one of the most important times in my life. I was praying the whole way that I wouldn't miss it and God came through.

Now, I am going to keep last night in my mind when modifying my cars in the future. I really want any money put into my car to be able to be exploited in a similar situation. To each their own, but I know that I want my hard work on my car to shine like it did last night.

240Dave

Why is this load of shit in the motorsports section?

SE-Rfornow

Did you notice the beginning to my post?? I know it wasn't really about the track, but really the same subject. I was talking about what goals I have in modifying my car, which is what I thought this thread is about.

I'm sorry that it did not pertain to motorsports directly, but this thread was on the subject so I figured I'd post it. If it really bothers everyone so much than I'll take it down. I didn't know that you'd be so uptight about strictly motorsports. It is useless to start another thread in another forum when I'm posting on almost the exact same subject. Just chill.

Edit: I know I'm a newb on this forum, but the harshness of your post made me wonder. I checked your recent posts and about half of them are very negative. I don't want to start beef as soon as I get here, but really just chill out. I had no bad intentions with my post.

SE-Rfornow

I'm really sorry that I had to make another post, but I can't edit my first message. I realized that it wasn't strictly motorsports, so I'm sorry that it is going to stay there. I will respect the forum as I'm just coming in.

Dave: I saw you had a lot of good help in the posts in which you weren't ripping on people. Maybe you could concentrate on providing help and helpful criticism when people do things wrong in your eyes. Don't want to start beef or anything.

240Dave

no hard feelings. I see the motorsports section as a sort of safehaven...hate to see it violated

Helpful criticism instead of random bashing eh? I'll see what I can do but no guarintees

AceInHole

The point of this thread is that if you had done a few HPDE's instead of buying a turbo or suspension.... you could've gotten a stock SE-R through the twisty back roads in the same amount of time, and probably have done it safer being able to control the car and react better in situations that may come up.

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mrfox

Invest in a car, it'll last maybe 10 years and depreciate all the while.

Invest smartly in real estate, and if the market is good it'll apperciate and earn you a nice nestegg when you sell.

Invest in yourself, and it'll pay dividens till the day you die.