misnomer

I'm looking for a VLSD to replace my open diff and I'm finding some mixed information and am wondering if anybody here can clarify. Don't bother trying to talk me out of it-- unless you can beat the price I only want a VLSD to help traction in the snow and generally improve grip.

On with the questions. Don't worry, I researched and only need clarification :

Number 1
I have an offer for a 180sx VLSD (with axles), but I would like to know the final drive ratio. Sources say it will either be 4.36 or 4.08. From what I've read out on the Internets (here: http://www.nissansilvia.co.nz/tech/S...SX%20Table.htm), the VLSDs from CAs should be 4.36 and from SRs, 4.08. What with the reliability of random websites, is there anybody that can verify this?

Number 2
I've also found 180sx output shafts should be 5 bolt versus teh 240sx 6 bolt. If this LSD comes with both axles as well, should I be good for a straight bolt in? Not that I don't trust what the seller tells me :P

Number 3
Anybody else happen to have a 240sx VLSD they want to get rid of (non-abs prefered)? I can arrange pick up in much of northern nevada, Las Vegas, and northern california, and probably Tucson, AZ as well :P

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Dousan_PG

bolt outputs
most CAs are 6 bolt
most SR chuuki are 5 bolt
most kouki is 6 bolt
my nismo SSS was for a kouki 180sx 6 bolt output shafts. so bought that

4.3 drives are usually CA or Skyline (i forget what trim, gts?)

no vlsd htey are junk
get a real 1.5 or hlsd or 2way lsd
vlsd is pointless 'upgrade'

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Aaron
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Yoshi

... and speaking from experience, it actually makes things in the snow worse.

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projectRDM

I love how all the hardass drifters talk shit about OE LSDs. For the price you can't touch it, and few people are buying diffs for the purpose of drifting, you guys just think that because you believe that's the only way to drive an Schassis, anything else is pointless. A lot of people don't ride the wagon like the SoCal kids do, they use their cars for more mundane purposes or enjoy an occasional drive without a lot of unwanted noise.

Show me a Nismo/Kaaz/Quaiffe/etc that bolts right up in less than 30 minutes for less than $100. I'll buy a dozen. Otherwise, the $850+ entrance fee plus installation makes it a lot less desirable. If we all had the money we'd all be driving 500hp cars with crazy JDM diffs, but 99% of people don't and never will.

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Dousan_PG

sorry russ i tried them a few times and they do suck
you can score a HLSD from a s15 w/ pumpkin and all for under 500 bucks, i did back in the day, imo that was a far better upgrade then a HLSD

btw i shot you a pm, i lost your address to send you the money! sorry!

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JDMs13

^^^ Show me a link where I can purchase an S15 HLSD for 500 beans please.


Greg

projectRDM

Again, because all you do is drift. And you bask in doing so. No harm in that, there's just other uses for a 13/14 that you guys on the West Coast fail to realize. My OE has done fine for years of autocross, mountain runs, track events, and daily driving. And I paid little for it. I picked up two J30 diffs yesterday at the pull-it yard for $80 (one with axles for $50, one without for $30), there's no way to justify paying 15x that for such a small difference in feel when half the time you'll never notice it. (Again, regular driving and real sporting events)

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Dousan_PG

no link
just got lucky w/ a shop
thats all i paid

yeah i agree rdm
its still a shitty upgrade imo, but i dont just drive the car aruond
so definately worth the money for what one might do with it.

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Aaron
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misnomer

This one is apparently from a blacktop sr20, probably safe to assume 4.08. Unfortunately, not all of us can get lucky with shops for HLSDs. I've looked. I've also looked for regular 240sx vlsds and j30s, nothing on eBay at the moment and certainly nothing around town. An s15 HLSD would be great, but the cheapest I have ever found is stil welll over $600. My car is stock and will stay mostly stock.


Yoshi: Worse in the snow? Explain.

Generally, I have no trouble keeping my car going in the snow. The problem comes when I am in a patch of snow trying to get rolling. The wheel that slips is the only one that spins. I figure with an LSD, I can get both wheels to spin (slipping and not) and get rolling again. This doesn't happen often, but when it does it takes a lot of effort to get out. I'm trying to think the physics behind it and can't figure how it's worse in the snow. . . From experience, my sister's Subaru (limited slips at all differentials) is worlds better in the snow than my stepdad's 4x4 truck (open diffs with front/rear locked). Shitty upgrade perhaps in your situation, but my car is my all-weather daily driver

What's your take on the matter?

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Angel

I would think that it's because when it looses traction with the open diff it doesn't start to move around as much because fo the other wheel being planted.... but with both wheels spinning, you are going to be fighting for directional control.... but then again I live in florida now although I have lived in much more harsh winter climates

Var

You sir, have just lost all credibilty in my book. Differentials make or break a car. I just ditched my 2-way AND my VLSD...what a joke

I run a welded diff now.. Feels like a 2-way without the clunking. VLSD>..i dunno what to say. I feel sorry for the person who buys mine. Every single turn i take every day that i drive my car, the differential that i'm running decides how i take the corner. I cant even think of anything else to say to that comment.. ?????

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Drunk Bastard

welded diff rawks

misnomer

Welded diff means equal power to both wheels at all times, right? If so, while I can see the application, it's not what I really want :P Still keen to see Yoshi's perspective on VLSD in the snow. I can certainly see where a locker would cause problems trying to take a turn, but not a more forgiving LSD. While we usually only have maybe 20-30 days with snow on the ground here, it can be a lot of work and a real PITA (not to mention embarrassment) when you get stuck trying to get one damn wheel over a 2" ledge of snow with no room or way to back up for a running start.

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BrandC

This topic went way off tangent...

Nobody should be "modification Nazis", it's like trying to convince a Navajo to become a Cherokee. Both cultures have their own way of doing things, and what works for the Navajo won't necessarily be practical for the Cherokee.

projectRDM

Never was worried about my creditability, I could give a flying fuck what anybody thinks.

If you're driving down the highway at 65mph, that $1200 you spent on a Kaaz doesn't react any different than the $50 on the J30 diff. Again, if you're using the car for a more sporting event or pushing it past normal limits there is a difference, but the whole 'buy an aftermarket diff or you're a total stupid piece of shit and shouldn't even own a 240' attitude is lame. You West Coast guys take your shit so damn personal and can't handle anyone thinking outside the little tiny box that you've built that consists of drifting and nothing else.
Some people actually drive their cars on public roads, to work and shit. You think they give any care to how their diff will lock up when going through a MacDonald's drive through? Doubtful.

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Var

Well your words were. "Regular driving and real sporting events" Regular driving in a sports car consists of taking turns a little faster than the rest of traffic. I bougnt a sports car to have fun in . And i dont know what you mean by "real sporting event" ..i sure as hell hope you dont mean auto-x. And even then you'd notice a huge difference so again..i'm at a loss for words...

And as far as taking shit personally..i'm really not , but i think you are.

1- a Kaaz isnt 1200 bucks
2-nobody said you're a stupid piece of shit for not buying an aftermarket diff



What the fuck is that? Eat a dick

My friends and I all have weld locs in our daily drivers. I guess you think we west coast guys all have spare cars for the track?

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misnomer

Gah!!! Can't we all just get along? Come on, group hug everybody.

My main questions were answered (thanks Dousan & whomever else). I'm just waiting for further discussion on LSD's being worse in bad weather because I can't get my head around it. I would imagine a locking differential could cause problems taking a slippery turn at highway speeds, but my problem isn't with turning at speed in the snow-- I already know how to handle the car in the snow. The only problem is overcoming a limitation which is getting moving when only one wheel grips. If there are other serious drawbacks to a limited slip in bad weather, by all means let me know

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Yoshi

wooo snow!

so here's my experience misnomer:
VLSD's by their nature work by heating hte Viscous fluid to force the pressure plates to gain friction and eventually (theoretically), force both sides to go.... There-in lies the problem.

Because VLSDs don't truly lock, I find them unpredictable, especially on unstable road conditions like ice, snow and slush. This past winter I spent a good amount of time abusing my baby (who usually get's to stay in the garage when there's snow) in the bad weather... so here's my setup for snow:
- GCs all the way up at all corners
- AGX allt he way soft at all corners
- stock 7-spokes with studded snow tires
- removed front STB
- 0 deg camber

Ok, so I'm all setup for snow rally :P
(I know some of you are already waving red flags at my suspension stiffness choice, butI tried a whole slew of settings before deciding that all soft and top height was the best way to go to try and drive safely)

VLSD - what can I say? I hate them. I wish Id' never wasted the $300 for the 180sx subframe I got 2 years ago, biggest waste of $ I've had on my car. First of all, I don't see how ppl can like VLSD unless it's new? They don't last as long as they should, that's for dam sure. I know mine is still fine, but the definition of "fine" in this instance, means, "good as new", which is to say sucky, at least for what I was looking for.

I believe the biggest drawback to VLSD is being able to anticipate what it will do. I've only driven 1 240 that had a 1.5, and I loved every noisy minute of it (it was a KAAZ). After a few laps, I could read what the diff was doing. I've never been able to say that w/VLSD, to this day. Circling back on topic, when in the snow, especially if you're say, in a parking space and trying to move your car off that icy patch, you hit reverse and SLLLLOOOOWWWLLLY let the clutch out to maintain traction.... when you lose traction, you pullt he ebrake a slight bit to even out your torque, old skool, nothing new right? Well with the VLSD it becomes more troublesome than that. Being on ice means that there about a 1% chance that your car is sitting perfectly level.... and an even lower chance that your traction potential is the same under both rear tires. My issue was that I couldn't predict wha5t hte VLSD would do. Sure the fluid heats up, but the moment from when you feel like USD to having some sort of traction is a fraction of a second, meaning it was FAR harder to control becuase every time the weight shifts, the VLSD would react to it.... only with about a 7/8 second delay.

They make computers specifically for this task, and I KNOW WHY! cuz the human brain will get PISSED OFF far before the computer will, hehehee.

I'm celebrating at tehe moment so bare with me if I ramble like It hink I did above... jaeger Mmmmm.....

continuing....
VLSD bad for predictability, a COMPLETELY underrated asset. I think I'd have to say that open diff is better for snow because at least with 1-wheel drive, you know how car will react, and you can compensate accordingly.... on unstable surfaces with constantyu changing traction angles, you NEED all the predictability you can get, lest you hit a tree, or curb, or worst of all, another person. I'm also starting to wonder if hte actual ambient temperature itself contributes to the slow reaction time of hte VLSD when it's below freezing outside, I don't think I have a way to prove that theory til it snows again, but it'd be foolhearty to think that it doesn't have SOME sort of negative affect on a device that works on temperature sentative internals. I personally got the VLSD SPECIFICALLY because I was thinking like you are now, it would help in the snow. Now I know that I pretty much just wasted my money.

Cliff notes:
- VLSDs don't fully lock
- VLSDs are slower to react than a real LSD, bad for sliding in snow
- VLSDs are VERY hard to predict and the shift of power on a slick surface will work against you
- Can anyone verify if a 100 degree change in temp would affect the reaction time of the viscous fluid? I don't see how it can't.... it might be just a fraction of a second, but let me tell you, that's an eternity when you see yourself sliding towards something big and expensive (Denali?)
- I apologize now for my verbal diarrhea, I will return to my alcoholism now

Var

a locked or clutch type differential would be excellent for getting out of a one wheel situation but may be too strong to use in snowy/slippery conditions unless you always wanna be under/oversteering. Could be fun but dangerous too. Think..rally racing everywhere you go. I dont think you'd wanna do that...would you. ??

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Yoshi

u kiddin?!
shit-ya I do! ehehee
I've defintely had moements wher I wanted to make lil 240 a rally beater :P
pretty much every time something goes wrogn with it... coincidence?

misnomer

Ah, fantastic infos. How long is the delay? You say 7/8 seconds and being an engineer I think seven eighths of a second. Do you really mean seven to eight seconds? That would be quite the eternity. I could also see that if the car was on a slant (driver side lower than passenger or the other way around), two spinning rear wheels would be just as likely to slide you laterally if they can't get going or the front tires can't get going. That was a huge problem in the heavy ass truck-- I'd try to go forward or backward from a stop, but just end up sliding sideways. I also honestly can't say I've ever bothered to put snow tires on my car. Maybe that's something to consider for next time :P

And yeah, it's fun as hell to floor it and spin the steering wheel to keep the nose going straight (ish), I can't pretend I don't do that in snow (or dirt), but that's not what I always want to be doing :P

Edit: Now that the cons are out of the way, anybody have anything to say for the pro side of the discussion?

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Var

there are more cons..hehe.

for example in a no traction situation, the vlsd is less likely to catch up. Because when there is no traction, the wheel that spins usually spins really fast and the vlsd just get's overwhelmed. I can do donuts in the dry but hardly in the rain cause it feels like an open diff.. make sense?

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projectRDM

Nope, you guys have only one car, and all you do is drift in it. It never sees any other kind of driving, ever. Isn't that what you guys all rave about? Drifting? The West Coast invented it right, along with SRs and 240s? Or have we been misinformed?

Damn. All this time the rest of us have assumed SoCal ruled the World. I feel robbed.




Moral of the story, yes that $1000 diff makes a difference, but for the average driver it's not $950 worth of difference, not when the $50 diff is already night and day better. For the average driver. (who is just a punk kid who has no money and can't always convince his parents to buy him stuff)

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Yoshi

Correct sir. seven-eighths of a second, not 7-8 (seven to eight) seconds
Studded tires make ALL the difference in the world.

AKADriver

Those people probably have no use for an LSD at all. Dousan isn't speaking from a "drift or nothing" perspective, the S15 HLSD he suggests is not a drift piece. The HLSD is the ultimate LSD for someone that just wants an LSD for putting the power down out of corners and bad weather and driving on the street. Silent, smooth, effective. Not a good drift piece because it never locks - if one wheel loses enough traction it can freewheel like an open diff. But much much better response than a VLSD. The HLSD in Miatas is awesome. Totally transparent, until you power out of a corner and you're NOT burning up the inside rear.

Though I will say to the people arguing against R240NA, if you daily drive a car with NO differential (welded) then you really do have no grip on reality, haha. Most people would not be able to put up with the constant tire chirping bullshit. Myself included and my 240SXs have never been daily cars... but they are street cars.

Var

People street 2-ways all the time. As far as streetability is concerned, a welded diff is WAAYYY more comfy than a 2-way cause it doesnt clunk at all. Sir, it is YOU that doesnt have a grip on reality. Because you said most people would not be able to put up with constant tire chirping.. Well most people around here put up with it fine, and people with 2-ways or 1.5ways do also . And unless i'm living in a dream world, you're wrong.

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projectRDM

Ya, but you guys are hardcore drifterz, yo.

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Var

You know it

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misnomer

hmm, less than a second is still a decent enough response time for me.

Lots to consider, lots to consider. I've done some looking, and would *love* an HLSD, but there's a lot more I could do with that $700. . . like pay rent. . .

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Drunk Bastard

haha, this thread RAWKS.

OK first off, not EVERYONE in california/west coast drifts...just a select few of us....and those are the ones who are posting about diffs. anyways, if you dont have a welded diff, then go screw yourslef cause A) im hammered and B) i dont drift