This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread. - Page 208 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

tauntdevil · 02-27-2014, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

They projected the into price at $399.

I really hope it comes out that price or near it. Sorry if I missed it before if they posted it. Definitely buying it if it does come out for that price. Too bad cant pre-order it yet. Looking forward to it.

az_240 · 02-27-2014, 09:12 PM

Any more info on those GKtech rear knuckles? Can't find anything on their site.

PoorMans180SX · 02-27-2014, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by az_240

Any more info on those GKtech rear knuckles? Can't find anything on their site.

What kind of info are you looking for?

az_240 · 02-27-2014, 11:34 PM

^Like how much drop they provide? Mostly curious why their graphs look like this...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbs14kouki

Gktech graff for there new rear knuckle

Anybody can tell me what this is saying ????

PoorMans180SX · 02-27-2014, 11:39 PM

Increased anti-squat, less bumpsteer, not sure on the exact "correction amount" since they've messed with all the control arm pickups, but I know it was the most they could package with a working Z32 e-brake. Obviously the geometry is better than even a 45mm Driftworks knuckle.

NAIRB · 02-28-2014, 10:19 AM

Does anyone happen to know the max a pbm flca can be extend to over stock?

Martino · 03-01-2014, 11:41 AM

Just seeing how much of a change the bumpsteer is at a higher travel really makes these worth while.

For anti-squat though, wouldn't that essentially harden your rear end? In the sense of drifting you want to absorb the roads harshness a lot of the time and continue through without interruption. Wouldn't increased anti-squat mirror what a harder dampener or stiffer springs would do?

Drift_FX · 03-01-2014, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NAIRB

Does anyone happen to know the max a pbm flca can be extend to over stock?

more than you will need to....... they have tons of adjustment, mine is out 2" with plenty of threads left....

tauntdevil · 03-01-2014, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martino

Just seeing how much of a change the bumpsteer is at a higher travel really makes these worth while.

For anti-squat though, wouldn't that essentially harden your rear end? In the sense of drifting you want to absorb the roads harshness a lot of the time and continue through without interruption. Wouldn't increased anti-squat mirror what a harder dampener or stiffer springs would do?

Quite the opposite actually, you see, without it, your arms are compressed and near as far as they can go, so if you hit a bump or something similar, than they will push up against your frame which is completely stiff. This will cause bending of the arms as well.
When you use the anti-squat knuckle setups, it allows your arms to see nearly straight light the stock height which will allow them to compress far more if you hit a bump. They wont (shouldn't) hit the frame and will be softer because they have place to move around.
If anything, should be a more soft ride instead as now the arms are not maxing against the frame. I go through about a set of camber arms per event because even with my suspension up higher than what I like (feeling wise), the arms are already pushing against the frame.

I hope this answers your question accurately.

Martino · 03-01-2014, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tauntdevil

Quite the opposite actually, you see, without it, your arms are compressed and near as far as they can go, so if you hit a bump or something similar, than they will push up against your frame which is completely stiff. This will cause bending of the arms as well.
When you use the anti-squat knuckle setups, it allows your arms to see nearly straight light the stock height which will allow them to compress far more if you hit a bump. They wont (shouldn't) hit the frame and will be softer because they have place to move around.
If anything, should be a more soft ride instead as now the arms are not maxing against the frame. I go through about a set of camber arms per event because even with my suspension up higher than what I like (feeling wise), the arms are already pushing against the frame.

I hope this answers your question accurately.

No I understand that and fully agree as I have the same problem.

I may have just gotten the "anti-squat" confused in a sense of not realizing these knuckles (similar to other drop knuckles) actually drop the mounting positions of each arm, helping the angle of each individual component.

Either way, that still does clarify my question.

PoorMans180SX · 03-01-2014, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martino

Just seeing how much of a change the bumpsteer is at a higher travel really makes these worth while.

For anti-squat though, wouldn't that essentially harden your rear end? In the sense of drifting you want to absorb the roads harshness a lot of the time and continue through without interruption. Wouldn't increased anti-squat mirror what a harder dampener or stiffer springs would do?

The more you lower your car, the less anti-squat your car has.

I copied this from NRR because this guy had a really good explanation.:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigapunk

This subject is not standardized enough in engineering, and is calculated in multiple ways. That's why the below was included in the first post, so that we can all be speaking the same language so to speak.

"Clarification: I refer to 100% antisquat line (no induced force) as the pink line (a lot of discussions will refer to the blue line as 100%. I call the blue line 200% antisquat. "

I believe that in your copy of Tune to win Carol's 20% would = 120% in this discussion.

It's a little unusual to see plots of anti-squat at multiple positions (in bump and droop), so if you want to compare GKtechs plots to others just look at 0mm wheel travel.

I originally calculated the S14s at 56%, it looks like GKtech get something closer to 70%, but still obviously pro-squat.

And it looks like they've increased the anti-squat to the ideal 120%, which is still significantly less than where I believe the S13 is (150%).

nujabe · 03-03-2014, 01:10 AM

pbm do you guys have a eta on the flca on the s15. im in the market for my first pair and i see you guys are out of stock for the past few weeks on the older models!!!

Martino · 03-04-2014, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

The more you lower your car, the less anti-squat your car has.

I copied this from NRR because this guy had a really good explanation.:

Of course, I think I just had a blonde moment. Somehow I disregarded the fact that those knuckles are drop knuckles in the same.

And yea I've seen that explanation, it was nicely dumbed down lol.

[email protected] · 03-09-2014, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tauntdevil

Only issue with that is they dont list their dang prices and the dealer they list for the US doesnt have any suspsnesion components at all listed on their site.

All the sites that I find that do sell them are mostly in Europe and the cost is about $2800 shipped.
So assumed that is the price for these?
Which is fine, I will just continue to go with wisefab, was just wondering if they were any cheaper than that anywhere else?

I dont think that our Kit sould cost $2800.

The kits cost €1500 Euro with tie rods and €1425 without tie rods.

To the US we have cheaper shipping but they will only take a package without the tie rods due to the weight.

The cost would be €1425 + delivery €90 + bank charges €25.

Total €1590 to your door.

Coppied form www.XE.com today

1,590.00 EUR = 2,206.45 USD
Euro ↔ US Dollar
1 EUR = 1.38770 USD 1 USD = 0.720615 EUR

So the kit would cost $2206.45 USD to your door and NOT $2800.

Robbie

derass · 03-09-2014, 03:27 PM

Can I do anything with my Rear Toe Setting to reduce grip? Right now, it is set toe-in quite a bit.

PoorMans180SX · 03-09-2014, 04:35 PM

Toe in is going to make the rear super stable/grippy, you need to put rear toe at zero, the suspension already has toe in under compression.

Def · 03-09-2014, 05:50 PM

For track driving you need some toe-in for the rear IMO. I run about 3/16" total toe-in with solid everything/rod ends/bearings. It's just a touch to make the rear end stable when getting on the power. I could see going down to 1/8" total toe-in, but no less than that IMO. It got a good bit more lively going from 1/4" total to 3/16" total, to where I think the car would get slower just not being as stable on slightly bumpy corners and getting on the brakes.

derass · 03-09-2014, 06:17 PM

My car is track only drift. I am trying to reduce the grip to spin the tires easier in the mid range of 3rd gear.

I'm thinking I can try changing the toe setting for free, before spending money on a final drive swap or more HP.

I will try less toe-in than what I am currently running.

jaysgottaredtop · 03-10-2014, 05:23 PM

Or you can just bump your tire pressure up. Or use cheaper/crappier tires.

Def · 03-11-2014, 08:58 AM

Reducing forward bite with bad alignment settings sounds like a stupid thing to do for even a drift car. Maximize forward bite then go to a harder/cheaper tire so you can actually keep your drift going and keep the speed up.

Seraphim38 · 03-11-2014, 10:28 AM

Most of the pro drifters and mechanics I talk to are changing setups to inrease rear grip. They have enough power as it is, and with solid hydro e-brake options for initiation, they want to be able to push forward and back with grip if possible. And, given the limitations on tire size relative to power, they need as much from the suspension as they can get.

Separately, can anyone comment on the Wisefab rear S13 setup vs. GKTech? I am looking for maximum grip as well, and am leaning towards selling all my rear SPL v5 parts and buying the wisefab setup. It's expensive, but looks to be worth it.

PoorMans180SX · 03-11-2014, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim38

Separately, can anyone comment on the Wisefab rear S13 setup vs. GKTech? I am looking for maximum grip as well, and am leaning towards selling all my rear SPL v5 parts and buying the wisefab setup. It's expensive, but looks to be worth it.

They have similar kinematics, with the wisefab being a bit better as they didn't have to package it with a Z32 e-brake or stock arm locations.

I've always run zero toe for tire wear, haha. I rather like how it handles/drifts, but I'm not competing or running r-comps, so yeah.

Matej · 03-11-2014, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim38

Most of the pro drifters and mechanics I talk to are changing setups to inrease rear grip. They have enough power as it is, and with solid hydro e-brake options for initiation, they want to be able to push forward and back with grip if possible. And, given the limitations on tire size relative to power, they need as much from the suspension as they can get.

The amount of how much knowledge from pro drifting applies to the hobbyist drifter seems to diminish constantly. 1000hp race cars are going to have almost opposite needs from someone trying to have fun spinning their wheels with 200-300hp, and the person with a stock KA would probably be best off running small wheels with a lot of negative camber, as dumb as such a setup may be.
That being said, I think most of the people in this thread are trying to find a happy medium somewhere in between.

Seraphim38 · 03-11-2014, 12:34 PM

Matej - Agreed. I am looking for the maximum amount of grip for ~500rwhp+, used in a daily driven 240sx on the street, on NT05 or similar street legal track day tires, which won't kill me in the rain.

Ignoring that this is a drift car, I love watching the suspension movement in this video...and I don't know how to properly post a youtube vid.

http://youtu.be/6ArcpNFNxxk

PoorMans180SX · 03-11-2014, 01:01 PM

^Yes, and they have tweaked it a bit since then, so it's even better, and has anti-roll bar mounts on the LCA's. It has similar kinematics to a double wishbone setup; they didn't do double wishbone as you can't change suspension types in a lot of drift series.

PoorMans180SX · 03-12-2014, 04:06 AM

Front and rear Wisefab kits on James Deane's new S14.

living4surf · 03-15-2014, 08:54 AM

figured i would post a quick picture comparing the stock s14 tie rods to pbm inner with maxima outer for anyone needing some extra length for extended arms and modded knuckles

rbs14kouki · 03-15-2014, 07:13 PM

Zak Pole just posted this on facebook from is r33 drift car !!

[/URL]

jaysgottaredtop · 03-15-2014, 07:49 PM

^ I'm not say that looks scary as shit, buuuuuuuuuuuut...

powahh · 03-22-2014, 12:18 PM

http://voodoo13usa.com/shop/1989-199...san-s13-240sx/

Well anything else is obsolete now.
If you own an S13, and you buy some other rods you're insane.

02-27-2014, 11:39 PM	#6215
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification t... Increased anti-squat, less bumpsteer, not sure on the exact "correction amount" since they've messed with all the control arm pickups, but I know it was the most they could package with a working Z32 e-brake. Obviously the geometry is better than even a 45mm Driftworks knuckle. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs. Last edited by PoorMans180SX; 02-28-2014 at 02:31 PM..

03-01-2014, 11:41 AM	#6217
Martino Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,000 Trader Rating: (8) Feedback Score: 8 reviews	Just seeing how much of a change the bumpsteer is at a higher travel really makes these worth while. For anti-squat though, wouldn't that essentially harden your rear end? In the sense of drifting you want to absorb the roads harshness a lot of the time and continue through without interruption. Wouldn't increased anti-squat mirror what a harder dampener or stiffer springs would do? __________________ IG: @vsMARTINO

03-03-2014, 01:10 AM	#6222
nujabe Zilvia Addict Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: BAY AREA CA Posts: 890 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	pbm do you guys have a eta on the flca on the s15. im in the market for my first pair and i see you guys are out of stock for the past few weeks on the older models!!! __________________ Some black guy who lurks zilvia.

03-09-2014, 04:35 PM	#6226
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification t... Toe in is going to make the rear super stable/grippy, you need to put rear toe at zero, the suspension already has toe in under compression. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

03-09-2014, 05:50 PM	#6227
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	For track driving you need some toe-in for the rear IMO. I run about 3/16" total toe-in with solid everything/rod ends/bearings. It's just a touch to make the rear end stable when getting on the power. I could see going down to 1/8" total toe-in, but no less than that IMO. It got a good bit more lively going from 1/4" total to 3/16" total, to where I think the car would get slower just not being as stable on slightly bumpy corners and getting on the brakes. __________________ S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly DEFSPORT

02-27-2014, 09:12 PM	#6212
az_240 Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Phx Posts: 3,097 Trader Rating: (41) Feedback Score: 41 reviews	Any more info on those GKtech rear knuckles? Can't find anything on their site.

02-28-2014, 10:19 AM	#6216
NAIRB Leaky Injector Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: providence Age: 29 Posts: 112 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Does anyone happen to know the max a pbm flca can be extend to over stock?

03-09-2014, 03:27 PM	#6225
derass Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Toronto, ON Age: 33 Posts: 1,182 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Can I do anything with my Rear Toe Setting to reduce grip? Right now, it is set toe-in quite a bit.

03-09-2014, 06:17 PM	#6228
derass Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Toronto, ON Age: 33 Posts: 1,182 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	My car is track only drift. I am trying to reduce the grip to spin the tires easier in the mid range of 3rd gear. I'm thinking I can try changing the toe setting for free, before spending money on a final drive swap or more HP. I will try less toe-in than what I am currently running.

03-10-2014, 05:23 PM	#6229
jaysgottaredtop Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 950 Trader Rating: (7) Feedback Score: 7 reviews	Or you can just bump your tire pressure up. Or use cheaper/crappier tires. __________________

03-11-2014, 08:58 AM	#6230
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Reducing forward bite with bad alignment settings sounds like a stupid thing to do for even a drift car. Maximize forward bite then go to a harder/cheaper tire so you can actually keep your drift going and keep the speed up. __________________ S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly DEFSPORT

03-11-2014, 10:28 AM	#6231
Seraphim38 Zilvia Addict Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Washington Posts: 810 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	Most of the pro drifters and mechanics I talk to are changing setups to inrease rear grip. They have enough power as it is, and with solid hydro e-brake options for initiation, they want to be able to push forward and back with grip if possible. And, given the limitations on tire size relative to power, they need as much from the suspension as they can get. Separately, can anyone comment on the Wisefab rear S13 setup vs. GKTech? I am looking for maximum grip as well, and am leaning towards selling all my rear SPL v5 parts and buying the wisefab setup. It's expensive, but looks to be worth it. __________________ Mazworks \| HKS \| Greddy \| T4 GTX3076r \| Full Race \| Tial \| SPL \| Feal

03-11-2014, 12:34 PM	#6234
Seraphim38 Zilvia Addict Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Washington Posts: 810 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	Matej - Agreed. I am looking for the maximum amount of grip for ~500rwhp+, used in a daily driven 240sx on the street, on NT05 or similar street legal track day tires, which won't kill me in the rain. Ignoring that this is a drift car, I love watching the suspension movement in this video...and I don't know how to properly post a youtube vid. http://youtu.be/6ArcpNFNxxk __________________ Mazworks \| HKS \| Greddy \| T4 GTX3076r \| Full Race \| Tial \| SPL \| Feal

03-11-2014, 01:01 PM	#6235
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	^Yes, and they have tweaked it a bit since then, so it's even better, and has anti-roll bar mounts on the LCA's. It has similar kinematics to a double wishbone setup; they didn't do double wishbone as you can't change suspension types in a lot of drift series. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs. Last edited by PoorMans180SX; 03-12-2014 at 04:07 AM..

03-12-2014, 04:06 AM	#6236
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Front and rear Wisefab kits on James Deane's new S14. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

03-15-2014, 08:54 AM	#6237
living4surf Nissanaholic! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: jupiter Age: 35 Posts: 1,701 Trader Rating: (52) Feedback Score: 52 reviews	figured i would post a quick picture comparing the stock s14 tie rods to pbm inner with maxima outer for anyone needing some extra length for extended arms and modded knuckles

03-15-2014, 07:13 PM	#6238
rbs14kouki Zilvia Addict Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montreal , Canada Age: 35 Posts: 817 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Zak Pole just posted this on facebook from is r33 drift car !! [/URL] __________________ AV FABRICATION Built thread sr20vet s14 http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=535574

03-15-2014, 07:49 PM	#6239
jaysgottaredtop Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 950 Trader Rating: (7) Feedback Score: 7 reviews	^ I'm not say that looks scary as shit, buuuuuuuuuuuut... __________________

03-22-2014, 12:18 PM	#6240
powahh Leaky Injector Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Roseville Posts: 109 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	http://voodoo13usa.com/shop/1989-199...san-s13-240sx/ Well anything else is obsolete now. If you own an S13, and you buy some other rods you're insane. __________________ Gee Spot Garage, doing things you don't.

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