Using Break-In Oil on Freshly Built Head? - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

broke240fromHI · 02-22-2020, 12:59 PM

Freshly Built ‘95 KA24DE Head
- Brian Crower Titanium Seats
- BC Valve Guides
- BC STD size Intake and Exhaust Valves
- BC 264/264 Cams
- BC Dual Valve Springs
- Mahle Valve Seals
- Jim Wolf Adjustable Cam Gears
- Brand New Timing Chains and Guides

Untouched/Stock Bottom End

Goal of this “Build” is really to just get the car running. No drifting or high revving in mind. Parts and upgrades are purely for safety, longevity, and reliability.

My question is.... would it be necessary to use a Break-In Engine Oil? I know people use it on rebuilt engines to help with the seating of the piston rings and for the added protection during this critical and early stage of engine’s new life. But they also use this type of oil to live and protect valvetrain parts as well. Just looking for a second opinion and thoughts within the community. Thanks.

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RalliartRsX · 02-22-2020, 01:19 PM

Amsoil break in oil for flat tappet heads to break in the cams

broke240fromHI · 02-22-2020, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

Amsoil break in oil for flat tappet heads to break in the cams

That’s the exact oil I was referring to. Haha. I’m also an Amsoil dealer so I use their products for everything.

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broke240fromHI · 02-22-2020, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

Amsoil break in oil for flat tappet heads to break in the cams

Also to add, the KA24 utilizes Shim-Over-Bucket. Not sure if it makes any world of a difference.

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Kingtal0n · 02-22-2020, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

Amsoil break in oil for flat tappet heads to break in the cams

this is a joke right? Hey guy you know hes just fucking with you right

why don't you call the cam manufacturer (any one of them that makes a cam for your head) and ask them

RalliartRsX · 02-22-2020, 06:20 PM

The flat tappet oil has higher levels of zddp which aid in the break in of our camshafts in DOHC engines

It's what I have used to break in my last 5 built SR engines, including 2 VETs.

It's also what my machine shop recommended (they build all the spec miata engines, Porsche engines and thier pro stock engines).

So yeah, if you have another recommendation king, let's hear it.

Goodluck OP.

RalliartRsX · 02-22-2020, 06:24 PM

Ps OP

This is straight from the maker of the cams Brian crower . But since king knows all, dont pay attention to what the cam manufacturer says and listen to the all encompassing wisdom of king.....

Quote:

CAMSHAFT BREAK-IN
Brian Crower, Inc does not recommend using synthetic oil during camshaft break-in. If you must run synthetics during operation, even though we recommend that you do not, make sure the synthetic contains a high zinc content (ZDDP count of 1400 or more). Follow OEM cam cap torque sequence and specifications. Use a liberal amount of aftermarket engine assembly lube, again with the recommended amount of zinc content, during installation and assembly. Check cam follower or bucket surfaces for any abnormal wear and/or scuffing. On initial start-up and break-in run engine at 1500-2500 rpm for 20 minutes.

RalliartRsX · 02-22-2020, 06:32 PM

Oh and it gets even better....

Quote:

RECOMMEND MOTOR OILS
Brian Crower, Inc does not recommend using any synthetic motor oil lacking zinc (ZDDP). This is especially critical with flat tappet, bucket or scrubber type finger follower camshafts (2JZ, EJ Series, B Series, SR20, etc…). Roller followers are not as critical but it is still recommended to utilize the added zinc content to prevent any premature wear.

To protect a new flat tappet, bucket or scrubber type finger follower camshaft during camshaft break-in:

Use a dedicated break-in oil that’s specifically designed for flat-tappet camshaft break-in.
Use mineral-based engine oil (preferably a nondetergent oil in the 30W or 10W30 range), plus a 16- to 20-oz. bottle of specialty ZDDP additive.

To provide long-term protection for a flat tappet, bucket or scrubber type finger follower:
Use a specialty engine oil that contains high levels of ZDDP (around 1000 to 1200 ppm). Brands like JGR Driven, Shell Rotella and Chevron Delo and Brad Penn are excellent brands to source.
Use the engine oil of your choice, plus a bottle of ZDDP additive with every oil change.

Note: Engine oils specifically designed for use in diesel applications will usually feature more zinc than passenger car gas engine oils. However, diesel engines are coming under greater scrutiny as well, in an effort to further reduce nationwide emissions. So, while a dedicated diesel oil may be better than a passenger car gas engine oil in terms of zinc content, you can’t automatically assume that any diesel oil contains enough ZDDP to protect a new flat-tappet cam.

Literally says so in the literature to use an oil with higher levels of zddp

S14rebuild · 02-22-2020, 07:33 PM

Always used. What manufacturers set for oil weight, 500miles, then change oil, cut open oil filter to inspect for debris...next change at 1500 miles, do the same with filter..if all good... change oil regularly

*s13 @ fullboost* · 02-23-2020, 01:16 AM

Fire it up and hold it at 2500-3000 rpm for three minute & change the oil & filter.

broke240fromHI · 02-23-2020, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RalliartRsX

Ps OP

This is straight from the maker of the cams Brian crower . But since king knows all, dont pay attention to what the cam manufacturer says and listen to the all encompassing wisdom of king.....

Dude thank you for this. Been try all day yesterday to open that damned link and I’ve been getting 404 Errors left and right.

On another note, kinda bummed out cause I put fresh Amsoil in recently and I just took the head back off to get work done and now gotta drain and put break in oil

lol but thanks a lot!

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Kingtal0n · 02-27-2020, 07:44 PM

Never heard of that. Hmmm. If you find evidence from any other manufacturer than Brian Crower I might be tempted to believe it. But it sounds like a joke to me given that the camshaft is not intended to generate a wear pattern. The proof is that you can swap them from engine to engine, valve to valve, rocker to rocker, without consequence.

I could be wrong but I think whoever wrote that about BC 'break in additive' was not an engineer, and trying to sound 'smart' by giving potential misinformation.

I'd go out on a limb and suggest you try contacting greddy, hks, those name brands in effort to establish what they recommend for new camshafts.
If for no other reason than to gain a reference point of view.

mechanicalmoron · 02-27-2020, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n

Never heard of that. Hmmm. If you find evidence from any other manufacturer than Brian Crower I might be tempted to believe it. But it sounds like a joke to me given that the camshaft is not intended to generate a wear pattern. The proof is that you can swap them from engine to engine, valve to valve, rocker to rocker, without consequence.

I could be wrong but I think whoever wrote that about BC 'break in additive' was not an engineer, and trying to sound 'smart' by giving potential misinformation.

I'd go out on a limb and suggest you try contacting greddy, hks, those name brands in effort to establish what they recommend for new camshafts.
If for no other reason than to gain a reference point of view.

Just off the top of my head, howards cams. They sell (and include, I think) special zddp/moly/magic/whatever oil additive and assembly lube, too.

Personally, I'm more likely to obey my own paranoia, than howard or brian's paranoia. Moly grease (real assembly lube or otherwise) all over the lobes, buckets/shims/keepers/etc, thinner lube in lifter/bucket bores, take it for a spin and whenever you and all your new parts are happy, change the oil.

Of course, yeah, cams shouldn't wear in much, it's just very light burnishing, I think the fear is that if it goes wrong before the parts are entirely happy, you get runaway scuffing and wipe it (and the motor) before you know what's happened.

The most important part of any automotive repair is to maintain the loose nut behind the steering wheel. Do whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Kingtal0n · 02-27-2020, 08:02 PM

Just out of curiosity,
If you search about 'roller' style cams and break in oils, you find stuff like this,

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1593096911

Quote:

Manufacturers do NOT use Break-In Oil because it is NOT needed. All engine parts, including rings will break-in perfectly fine with normal oil. No oil on earth can stop parts from breaking-in. Because microscopic high points on any part will immediately wear down as required for the part to support the load applied to it.

Remember, rings are forced out against the cylinder walls by combustion pressure behind them in their backspace between the ID of the ring and the piston's ring groove back wall. That's how rings are designed.

If an engine has any trouble breaking-in, it was not built correctly. Period.

Break-In oils are the absolute worst oils on the market, because they provide dangerously little wear protection. Many engines have been ruined during break-in because of people using those worthless oils. And the people involved want to blame everything in the world other than the oil. They just don't know, what they don't know.

Quote:

Oil Company claims about the benefit of high zinc levels in motor oil is NOT based on actual fact. Extra zinc cannot physically provide extra wear protection, because zinc simply DOES NOT work that way. Zinc is used up a little at a time as it is sacrificed to help protect against wear. More zinc will take longer to become depleted, simply because there is more there to use up. It’s the same idea as more gas in your tank will take longer to run out, but more gas in your tank cannot physically make more HP.

These high zinc motor oil producing Oil Companies NEVER provide any test data to prove that their high zinc oils always provide better wear protection than ordinary modern low zinc street oils. They can’t do it, because it’s NOT TRUE. So, high zinc believers are only embracing smoke and mirrors, nothing else. And actual dynamic motor oil friction tests under load, PROVE that the need for high zinc levels is simply NOT TRUE. That is why I started testing motor oil, so that I could separate the facts from the fiction.

You can also find alot of info from people suggesting the use of 'break in oils' and so forth.

It goes both ways on the sea of internetz.

Personally after everything I've seen and done, i.e. using new and used roller cams and sr20 cams with straight synthetic and no issues, this is how I play the game to this day. My simple claim is that, if the part can be moved from engine to engine, then it does not contain any established personalized wear pattern, and thus the use of synthetic motor oil is indifferent/inconsequential. Basically the less it wears the better, and synthetic does a great job of preventing wear. I think break in oil is a mistake in this instance.

Kingtal0n · 02-27-2020, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

Just off the top of my head, howards cams. They sell (and include, I think) special zddp/moly/magic/whatever oil additive and assembly lube, too.

Personally, I'm more likely to obey my own paranoia, than howard or brian's paranoia. Moly grease (real assembly lube or otherwise) all over the lobes, buckets/shims/keepers/etc, thinner lube in lifter/bucket bores, take it for a spin and whenever you and all your new parts are happy, change the oil.

Of course, yeah, cams shouldn't wear in much, it's just very light burnishing, I think the fear is that if it goes wrong before the parts are entirely happy, you get runaway scuffing and wipe it (and the motor) before you know what's happened.

The most important part of any automotive repair is to maintain the loose nut behind the steering wheel. Do whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

From what little I've read today I believe they sell that lube for freshly built engines using new camshafts. I am not entirely sure they would recommend using it if all you are doing is a cam swap. And I have a feeling that whoever you happen to ask, even if they work there, could give you either answer depending on the day, because I believe so few people actually know or understand one way or the other.

mechanicalmoron · 02-27-2020, 08:16 PM

Bull flows all ways, but there's a higher truth we can pick out...

Roller rockers shouldn't break in, piston rings absolutely must.

ZDDP is only one of a variety of chemical magicks, and most oil is oil is oil and will work, even very well - but so what? You need SOME wear limiting additives, who cares if they put the name everyone knows on the front? Extra zinc helps because oils have dramatically less zinc than would be good, because of catalysts.

Ever wonder why only API SH/SJ oils are specced for old gear/transfer cases and trannys? I doubt it's because modern oil has as much catalyst poisoning zinc in it as it can possibly use.

Also, shim buckets are not rollers, they're basically....... flat tappets.

Kingtal0n · 02-27-2020, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

Also, shim buckets are not rollers, they're basically....... flat tappets.

I missed that is was a KA engine. Although I am not sure it makes a difference from the sr20 type of follower, which afaik is still something like a 'flat tappet' also.

I can't dismiss the overwhelming evidence from variety of cam manufactures that says not to use synthetic oil for break in procedure of camshafts.
I stand by my original recommendation of using the cam manufacturer's recommendation lmao

I do recall that on 2jz-gte you want the conventional motor oil for a new camshaft. Something about ductile billet materials... fwiw
It still seems strange to me that you can pull a used cam out of an SR/2jz/LS engine and re-install it into a completely different engine without using any kind of break in procedure 'just because its already been broken in on another engine' is that even why? or how? idfk

finally I want to thank everyone who contributed and all thoughts involved, it was nice

*TheRealSy90* · 02-28-2020, 10:32 AM

Pretty sure Amsoil has tested their oils against other brands and proven better resistance to component wear. Just responding to that quote from the corvette forum.

02-22-2020, 12:59 PM	#1
broke240fromHI Join Date: May 2019 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 30 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Using Break-In Oil on Freshly Built Head? Freshly Built ‘95 KA24DE Head - Brian Crower Titanium Seats - BC Valve Guides - BC STD size Intake and Exhaust Valves - BC 264/264 Cams - BC Dual Valve Springs - Mahle Valve Seals - Jim Wolf Adjustable Cam Gears - Brand New Timing Chains and Guides Untouched/Stock Bottom End Goal of this “Build” is really to just get the car running. No drifting or high revving in mind. Parts and upgrades are purely for safety, longevity, and reliability. My question is.... would it be necessary to use a Break-In Engine Oil? I know people use it on rebuilt engines to help with the seating of the piston rings and for the added protection during this critical and early stage of engine’s new life. But they also use this type of oil to live and protect valvetrain parts as well. Just looking for a second opinion and thoughts within the community. Thanks. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

02-23-2020, 01:16 AM	#10
s13 @ fullboost Spirit Of Ecstasy Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 2,531 Trader Rating: (15) Feedback Score: 15 reviews	Fire it up and hold it at 2500-3000 rpm for three minute & change the oil & filter. __________________

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02-22-2020, 01:19 PM	#2
RalliartRsX Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 4,753 Trader Rating: (32) Feedback Score: 32 reviews	Amsoil break in oil for flat tappet heads to break in the cams

02-22-2020, 06:20 PM	#6
RalliartRsX Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 4,753 Trader Rating: (32) Feedback Score: 32 reviews	The flat tappet oil has higher levels of zddp which aid in the break in of our camshafts in DOHC engines It's what I have used to break in my last 5 built SR engines, including 2 VETs. It's also what my machine shop recommended (they build all the spec miata engines, Porsche engines and thier pro stock engines). So yeah, if you have another recommendation king, let's hear it. Goodluck OP.

02-22-2020, 07:33 PM	#9
S14rebuild BANNED Join Date: May 2019 Location: Florida-FAIL Posts: 2,497 Trader Rating: (8) Feedback Score: 8 reviews	Always used. What manufacturers set for oil weight, 500miles, then change oil, cut open oil filter to inspect for debris...next change at 1500 miles, do the same with filter..if all good... change oil regularly

02-27-2020, 07:44 PM	#12
Kingtal0n Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: South Florida Age: 38 Posts: 4,649 Trader Rating: (17) Feedback Score: 17 reviews	Never heard of that. Hmmm. If you find evidence from any other manufacturer than Brian Crower I might be tempted to believe it. But it sounds like a joke to me given that the camshaft is not intended to generate a wear pattern. The proof is that you can swap them from engine to engine, valve to valve, rocker to rocker, without consequence. I could be wrong but I think whoever wrote that about BC 'break in additive' was not an engineer, and trying to sound 'smart' by giving potential misinformation. I'd go out on a limb and suggest you try contacting greddy, hks, those name brands in effort to establish what they recommend for new camshafts. If for no other reason than to gain a reference point of view.

02-27-2020, 08:16 PM	#16
mechanicalmoron Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: tx Posts: 1,075 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Bull flows all ways, but there's a higher truth we can pick out... Roller rockers shouldn't break in, piston rings absolutely must. ZDDP is only one of a variety of chemical magicks, and most oil is oil is oil and will work, even very well - but so what? You need SOME wear limiting additives, who cares if they put the name everyone knows on the front? Extra zinc helps because oils have dramatically less zinc than would be good, because of catalysts. Ever wonder why only API SH/SJ oils are specced for old gear/transfer cases and trannys? I doubt it's because modern oil has as much catalyst poisoning zinc in it as it can possibly use. Also, shim buckets are not rollers, they're basically....... flat tappets.