This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread. - Page 65 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

singlecamslam · 11-06-2010, 02:25 PM

question, can someone tell me the thread pattern of the GS rucas for the s14? my heim joints are totally shot its getting dangerous to drive, so thread patter of the heim joint for the s14 ruca so i can go get a good bearing. I emailed fatbou garage no luck.

Csomme · 11-06-2010, 02:47 PM

Poorman, can you visually explain this to me, because this is not making any any sense to me whatsoever that I need longer Tie rods. These Wickeds are almost(like 5mm) as long fully extended as my buddies Ikeya Formula inners with s14 outers...

And in my head, longer tie rods doesn't make sense.

This is a horrible representation, because I suck in paint, it's not to scale and the sides are different lengths, but can we please just pretend? lol

THE WAY I AM NOW^^

THE WAY I WILL BE WITH LONGER TIE RODS^

recklessrob · 11-06-2010, 03:08 PM

have you measured the angles with the car on the ground?

SicBastard · 11-06-2010, 03:38 PM

I'm looking forward to this explination on the tie rods as well.

And on an old topic, anybody have any chassis engineering textbooks they can reference to confirm the origin of the anit squat line from?

95KA-Turbo · 11-06-2010, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singlecamslam

question, can someone tell me the thread pattern of the GS rucas for the s14? my heim joints are totally shot its getting dangerous to drive, so thread patter of the heim joint for the s14 ruca so i can go get a good bearing. I emailed fatbou garage no luck.

What are GS rucas? Is GS a company?

I would assume they're 16MX2.0 like all of the other crummy heim joint arms out there.

soreballz · 11-06-2010, 08:45 PM

^GS = Godspeed.

PoorMans180SX · 11-06-2010, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Csomme

Poorman, can you visually explain this to me, because this is not making any any sense to me whatsoever that I need longer Tie rods. These Wickeds are almost(like 5mm) as long fully extended as my buddies Ikeya Formula inners with s14 outers...

And in my head, longer tie rods doesn't make sense.

This is a horrible representation, because I suck in paint, it's not to scale and the sides are different lengths, but can we please just pretend? lol

Ahhh, I didnt' know the wickeds were that long. What hole do you have the tie rods in on the PSM knuckle? They need to be in the hole closest to the FLCA and the actual weld on piece needs to be angled outward for max angle/ackerman reduction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

What are GS rucas? Is GS a company?

I would assume they're 16MX2.0 like all of the other crummy heim joint arms out there.

Godspeed.

Csomme · 11-06-2010, 09:24 PM

They are in the closest one

I am surely confused bud. Arg. Are you stumped as well? I thought you of all people could tell.

PoorMans180SX · 11-06-2010, 09:47 PM

Yeah man, get some pictures of the knuckles, and the tie rod on each side when at full lock.

singlecamslam · 11-07-2010, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95KA-Turbo

What are GS rucas? Is GS a company?

I would assume they're 16MX2.0 like all of the other crummy heim joint arms out there.

Yea god speed, got some for free, so trying to replace that shitty bearing with an FK bearing since they sell metric shit. If its the same pattern as the control arms, than it is 16x2.0, someone confirm?

Def · 11-07-2010, 09:48 AM

The Godspeed FLCA have 16x2 mm rod ends on the inboard side - yes.

singlecamslam · 11-07-2010, 09:34 PM

heres is my stock modified arm.

here is the stock angle of the ball joint.

Here is how i want to weld it in at a angle, what do you guys think? This is too much, just showing what i maen.

godrifttoday · 11-08-2010, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singlecamslam

heres is my stock modified arm.

here is the stock angle of the ball joint.

Here is how i want to weld it in at a angle, what do you guys think? This is too much, just showing what i maen.

Hey show pics of the arm from under, what size heim u use? Right/ left thread? What mis-alignment spacers? And what bungs did u use to weld to the arm right/left thread? Pm me I'f not post here thanks!

SoSideways · 11-08-2010, 08:20 AM

I wouldn't go that much.

Measure the stock arm's angle, and then take like 2 or 3 degrees out, maybe 4 if you were really low, but I wouldn't really take anymore out.

You're still kinda restricted to a certain angle due to the angle on the bottom of the front knuckles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Trust me. S13 tie rods are too short. Look at any good website and they will recommend S14 tie rods for modded knuckles.

You can still get zero toe alignment, you just have to adjust them in farther. I know I know it doesn't make a lot of sense until you see it, but I know what I'm talking about. Everyone else in this thread and Kuah (from SPL parts) and Dan (from Parts Shop MAX) will tell you the same thing.

Check out PSM's new tie rod inners/outers. Cheap and strong.

The only reason why you need longer tie rods is so you can achieve zero toe after getting the modified knuckles.

After placing the tie rod end mounting points further outward to reduce ackerman and increase maximum possible angle, your tie rod assembly, whether it's just longer tie rods, or with longer tie rod ends, you would need the new assembly to reach the new position of the tie rod mounting holes, which could easily be an inch further outward from the stock location.

That's the only reason why you would need longer tie rods.

Randomly throwing longer tie rods on your car will not do anything other than give you massive and non-functional toe-in.

I'm speaking from personal experience since I went through all this. I'm pretty sure I explained this stuff as I was working on my setup earlier in this thread.

singlecamslam · 11-08-2010, 11:49 AM

That heim joint/ bung set up is a cut up God speed arm, i'm using FK bearing rather than the shitty china ones. Yea i'm not going to go that much angle it was just to show. True i have stock knuckles, if i get a spare set i might modify them.

FOr now i will take out like 2-3 degrees since that will make the heim joint inside the cup as center as possible to reduce possible bind.

QA1 sells those tube inserts as well. You will need a 1/8'' plate that is 1.5x2.0 with a 1/4'' hole right in the center. Than just plate the shit out of it and be generous with the welder.

SoSideways · 11-08-2010, 11:53 AM

Don't forget to grind the "lip" past the bearing cup down to gain some space between the FLCAs and the rotors.

singlecamslam · 11-08-2010, 12:25 PM

Yea cant wait to start getting into fitment problems =(. Trying to get the bearing centered without having to make the control arm much longer. Need to start working on the rears.

PoorMans180SX · 11-08-2010, 12:43 PM

Yeah, I had the concept a little screwed up.

Csomme, are you running any kind of bump-stop on your FLCA? Shots of those knuckles?

Slidin' Sam · 11-08-2010, 04:59 PM

To the guy having angle issues: Did you check to make sure that your not rubbing on something with your trailing wheel/tire? Also, remember that your "max angle" will be greater when actually racing.

DC Dan MAX USA · 11-08-2010, 07:06 PM

csomme,

To check the installation I would have to see pictures of your parts: installed knuckle parts, LCA bump stop, and tie rod.

Its not too usefull looking at the pix from the outside of the car, the camera angle can have an effect on the appearance.

However 10-12 degrees of ackerman is normal for our parts. So depending on how the parts were installed if your inside wheel is sitting at 49 degrees from center, the outside wheel should be 39 degrees.

Matts angles are 55 and 43 degrees and with the bright wheels its easy to see the difference.

SoSideways · 11-08-2010, 07:55 PM

To the guys saying he's rubbing on stuff or hitting stuff with the inside wheel, remember the wheels are connected via the rack, so if he hits something with the trailing wheel, the entire rack stops moving and he wouldn't be able to turn the leading wheel any more.

Just pointing this out in case someone forgot about that bit.

mrphams · 11-09-2010, 11:40 PM

Hey guys.

I hope this is the correct place to post this!

My S15 (very similar to S14 I suppose), has the following alignment for the rear and ride height isn't dumped or anything, it's a very mild sort of setup:

Rear
Camber : -1.7 degrees
Toe : 0mm total

The rear has all adjustable arms, camber, toe and traction.

The problem I'm having is that the rear wheels aren't centered in the arch, not even close, and they sit further to the back of the arch. This cases the tyres to scrub on the lower back of the wheel arch.

Is it possible that the previous owner of my car set the traction rods too long, so now the wheels are positioned too far back? And if I shorten the traction rods and adjust other arms to suit, then the wheel will be more centered and will no longer scrub?

Car is getting alignment end of the week and they will sort it all out I suppose, but just curious about the methods and theory behind it all

Cheers!

SoSideways · 11-10-2010, 07:19 AM

That's how the rear wheels are on my S13 too.

But I'm running stock traction arms, thus the super far back look.

From the research that the NRR guys have done though, I think setting the traction rods to 8.5" or there abouts created a pretty sweet toe curve for the rear wheels, to where toe barely changed at all throughout the entire suspension travel, from full droop to fully compressed.

SicBastard · 11-10-2010, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrphams

Hey guys.

I hope this is the correct place to post this!

My S15 (very similar to S14 I suppose), has the following alignment for the rear and ride height isn't dumped or anything, it's a very mild sort of setup:

Rear
Camber : -1.7 degrees
Toe : 0mm total

The rear has all adjustable arms, camber, toe and traction.

The problem I'm having is that the rear wheels aren't centered in the arch, not even close, and they sit further to the back of the arch. This cases the tyres to scrub on the lower back of the wheel arch.

Is it possible that the previous owner of my car set the traction rods too long, so now the wheels are positioned too far back? And if I shorten the traction rods and adjust other arms to suit, then the wheel will be more centered and will no longer scrub?

Car is getting alignment end of the week and they will sort it all out I suppose, but just curious about the methods and theory behind it all

Cheers!

Longer traction rods tend to reduce toe changes. You might want to check this out.

New S14 bumpsteer graphs - Nissan Road Racing Forums

Black240Ct · 11-10-2010, 08:18 AM

hey dudes,

careful with inner tie rod spacers and s14 inners on a s13 rack..( i am not sure if a s14 rack is any different.) the over all length of the s14 tie rod is needed for modded knuckles, but s14's have shorter threads that thread into the rack.. and with spacers, its really only held on by three or four threads, mine stripped out of my rack this past event...

some companies are offering inner rods that have the 'spacer' machined into the inner tie rod, and the 'stock s13' thread length that goes into the rack.. im buying this style from now on.

SoSideways · 11-10-2010, 08:48 AM

I don't know what tie rods you used, but even the Tein ones had plenty of threads still after slipping on the bigger PBM 7mm spacers.

I'm not using any spacers right now though.

mrphams · 11-10-2010, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoSideways

That's how the rear wheels are on my S13 too.

But I'm running stock traction arms, thus the super far back look.

From the research that the NRR guys have done though, I think setting the traction rods to 8.5" or there abouts created a pretty sweet toe curve for the rear wheels, to where toe barely changed at all throughout the entire suspension travel, from full droop to fully compressed.

Glad I'm not the only one with this problem! So we both need shorter traction rod then, but need to keep it roughly around 8.5" (center to center?) for the best bump-steer results.

SoSideways · 11-10-2010, 11:21 AM

Yes 8.5" center to center.

I am not sure if it will work on our cars, as the stock traction rods are 8.25" long, and we're talking about even lengthening them a bit more.

mrphams · 11-10-2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoSideways

Yes 8.5" center to center.

I am not sure if it will work on our cars, as the stock traction rods are 8.25" long, and we're talking about even lengthening them a bit more.

What are we to do! I don't really care about how it looks (ok I care a little), but main goal is to stop the scrubbing. I'll let you know how I go after the alignment.

My current traction rods look like they're longer then 8.5".... so hopefully it's just that.

Black240Ct · 11-10-2010, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoSideways

I don't know what tie rods you used, but even the Tein ones had plenty of threads still after slipping on the bigger PBM 7mm spacers.

I'm not using any spacers right now though.

i was using moog oem replacement s14 inners, shorter threads then s13 or tein

11-06-2010, 02:25 PM	#1921
singlecamslam Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norcal Posts: 2,531 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	question, can someone tell me the thread pattern of the GS rucas for the s14? my heim joints are totally shot its getting dangerous to drive, so thread patter of the heim joint for the s14 ruca so i can go get a good bearing. I emailed fatbou garage no luck. __________________ Nothing says racecar like a stock car with no interior.

11-06-2010, 03:38 PM	#1924
SicBastard Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 803 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I'm looking forward to this explination on the tie rods as well. And on an old topic, anybody have any chassis engineering textbooks they can reference to confirm the origin of the anit squat line from? __________________ BURN OUT IN YOUR FACE! 1998 S14 LS7/T56 swap in progress, build thread: http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/147301...d-gto-pan.html

11-06-2010, 09:47 PM	#1929
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Yeah man, get some pictures of the knuckles, and the tie rod on each side when at full lock. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

11-07-2010, 09:48 AM	#1931
Def Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,701 Trader Rating: (16) Feedback Score: 16 reviews	The Godspeed FLCA have 16x2 mm rod ends on the inboard side - yes. __________________ S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly DEFSPORT

11-07-2010, 09:34 PM	#1932
singlecamslam Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norcal Posts: 2,531 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	heres is my stock modified arm. here is the stock angle of the ball joint. Here is how i want to weld it in at a angle, what do you guys think? This is too much, just showing what i maen. __________________ Nothing says racecar like a stock car with no interior.

11-06-2010, 02:47 PM	#1922
Csomme Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: north carolinazzz Age: 30 Posts: 1,009 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Poorman, can you visually explain this to me, because this is not making any any sense to me whatsoever that I need longer Tie rods. These Wickeds are almost(like 5mm) as long fully extended as my buddies Ikeya Formula inners with s14 outers... And in my head, longer tie rods doesn't make sense. This is a horrible representation, because I suck in paint, it's not to scale and the sides are different lengths, but can we please just pretend? lol THE WAY I AM NOW^^ THE WAY I WILL BE WITH LONGER TIE RODS^

11-06-2010, 03:08 PM	#1923
recklessrob Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Orange County Posts: 49 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	have you measured the angles with the car on the ground?

11-06-2010, 09:24 PM	#1928
Csomme Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: north carolinazzz Age: 30 Posts: 1,009 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	They are in the closest one I am surely confused bud. Arg. Are you stumped as well? I thought you of all people could tell.

11-08-2010, 11:49 AM	#1935
singlecamslam Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norcal Posts: 2,531 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	That heim joint/ bung set up is a cut up God speed arm, i'm using FK bearing rather than the shitty china ones. Yea i'm not going to go that much angle it was just to show. True i have stock knuckles, if i get a spare set i might modify them. FOr now i will take out like 2-3 degrees since that will make the heim joint inside the cup as center as possible to reduce possible bind. QA1 sells those tube inserts as well. You will need a 1/8'' plate that is 1.5x2.0 with a 1/4'' hole right in the center. Than just plate the shit out of it and be generous with the welder. __________________ Nothing says racecar like a stock car with no interior.

11-08-2010, 11:53 AM	#1936
SoSideways Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 你老母 Posts: 4,371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Don't forget to grind the "lip" past the bearing cup down to gain some space between the FLCAs and the rotors. __________________ SoSideway's iTrader Rating!! *SoSideways' Review Thread!!* http://sosideways.wordpress.com/

11-08-2010, 12:25 PM	#1937
singlecamslam Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Norcal Posts: 2,531 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	Yea cant wait to start getting into fitment problems =(. Trying to get the bearing centered without having to make the control arm much longer. Need to start working on the rears. __________________ Nothing says racecar like a stock car with no interior.

11-08-2010, 12:43 PM	#1938
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Yeah, I had the concept a little screwed up. Csomme, are you running any kind of bump-stop on your FLCA? Shots of those knuckles? __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

11-08-2010, 04:59 PM	#1939
Slidin' Sam Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Japan Posts: 729 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	To the guy having angle issues: Did you check to make sure that your not rubbing on something with your trailing wheel/tire? Also, remember that your "max angle" will be greater when actually racing. __________________

11-08-2010, 07:06 PM	#1940
DC Dan MAX USA Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 2,478 Trader Rating: (79) Feedback Score: 79 reviews	csomme, To check the installation I would have to see pictures of your parts: installed knuckle parts, LCA bump stop, and tie rod. Its not too usefull looking at the pix from the outside of the car, the camera angle can have an effect on the appearance. However 10-12 degrees of ackerman is normal for our parts. So depending on how the parts were installed if your inside wheel is sitting at 49 degrees from center, the outside wheel should be 39 degrees. Matts angles are 55 and 43 degrees and with the bright wheels its easy to see the difference. __________________ How To order: You can order directly from our zilvia advertiser threads. When you add to cart, you get an instant shipping estimate, & the cart will remember all of your items as you move between forum threads and our website www.poweredbymax.net until you remove them or check out. I can also calculate estimates manually for you but the cart's estimates are way faster and more accurate. Order Inquiry: IM me your real name and paypal address. Thanks for your business!

11-08-2010, 07:55 PM	#1941
SoSideways Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 你老母 Posts: 4,371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	To the guys saying he's rubbing on stuff or hitting stuff with the inside wheel, remember the wheels are connected via the rack, so if he hits something with the trailing wheel, the entire rack stops moving and he wouldn't be able to turn the leading wheel any more. Just pointing this out in case someone forgot about that bit. __________________ SoSideway's iTrader Rating!! *SoSideways' Review Thread!!* http://sosideways.wordpress.com/

11-09-2010, 11:40 PM	#1942
mrphams Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 27 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Hey guys. I hope this is the correct place to post this! My S15 (very similar to S14 I suppose), has the following alignment for the rear and ride height isn't dumped or anything, it's a very mild sort of setup: Rear Camber : -1.7 degrees Toe : 0mm total The rear has all adjustable arms, camber, toe and traction. The problem I'm having is that the rear wheels aren't centered in the arch, not even close, and they sit further to the back of the arch. This cases the tyres to scrub on the lower back of the wheel arch. Is it possible that the previous owner of my car set the traction rods too long, so now the wheels are positioned too far back? And if I shorten the traction rods and adjust other arms to suit, then the wheel will be more centered and will no longer scrub? Car is getting alignment end of the week and they will sort it all out I suppose, but just curious about the methods and theory behind it all Cheers!

11-10-2010, 07:19 AM	#1943
SoSideways Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 你老母 Posts: 4,371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	That's how the rear wheels are on my S13 too. But I'm running stock traction arms, thus the super far back look. From the research that the NRR guys have done though, I think setting the traction rods to 8.5" or there abouts created a pretty sweet toe curve for the rear wheels, to where toe barely changed at all throughout the entire suspension travel, from full droop to fully compressed. __________________ SoSideway's iTrader Rating!! *SoSideways' Review Thread!!* http://sosideways.wordpress.com/

11-10-2010, 08:18 AM	#1945
Black240Ct Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: CT Age: 35 Posts: 563 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	hey dudes, careful with inner tie rod spacers and s14 inners on a s13 rack..( i am not sure if a s14 rack is any different.) the over all length of the s14 tie rod is needed for modded knuckles, but s14's have shorter threads that thread into the rack.. and with spacers, its really only held on by three or four threads, mine stripped out of my rack this past event... some companies are offering inner rods that have the 'spacer' machined into the inner tie rod, and the 'stock s13' thread length that goes into the rack.. im buying this style from now on.

11-10-2010, 08:48 AM	#1946
SoSideways Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 你老母 Posts: 4,371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	I don't know what tie rods you used, but even the Tein ones had plenty of threads still after slipping on the bigger PBM 7mm spacers. I'm not using any spacers right now though. __________________ SoSideway's iTrader Rating!! *SoSideways' Review Thread!!* http://sosideways.wordpress.com/

11-10-2010, 11:21 AM	#1948
SoSideways Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 你老母 Posts: 4,371 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Yes 8.5" center to center. I am not sure if it will work on our cars, as the stock traction rods are 8.25" long, and we're talking about even lengthening them a bit more. __________________ SoSideway's iTrader Rating!! *SoSideways' Review Thread!!* http://sosideways.wordpress.com/

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