REPORT: Half of California gas stations could face closure for failing to install cos - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

ZilviaBot · 04-05-2009, 09:00 PM

03-31-2009 01:20 PM

Filed under: Government/Legal, Green, Tech, Earnings/Financials

According to the Los Angeles Daily News, California gas station operators have known since 2000 that they would have to install new nozzles on their gas pumps by tomorrow's deadline. And yet at least 2,000 of the 3,900 stations in the Southern California region and 60 percent of stations statewide have failed to do exactly that. The California Air Resources Board ruled nine years ago that gas pumps would have to be equipped with enhanced vapor recovery nozzles that capture and recirculate the gasoline vapors that inevitably escape while pumping gas.

Unfortunately, the narrow margins of gas retailing and high cost of the nozzles has made stations owners reluctant to spend the money. The equipment costs roughly $11,000 per pump.

Starting April 1, stations that haven't upgraded will start to face fines that will be ramped up toward the end of this year. Stations that haven't made the changes by the end of 2009 face closure.

[Source: Los Angeles Daily News | Image: Justin Sullivan/Getty]REPORT: Half of California gas stations could face closure for failing to install costly new nozzles originally appeared on Autoblog on Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:20:00 EST. Please see our terms for use of feeds.

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lost240soul · 04-05-2009, 09:41 PM

Dam thats carzy .. but serves them right if they've known about it since 2000..

I10cruiser · 04-05-2009, 10:26 PM

but 11000 thousand dollars for one pump is fucking retarded

lost240soul · 04-05-2009, 10:53 PM

^^ im pretty sure in the last 9 years they have made enough money to fix them..even if they fixed one pump a year...

I10cruiser · 04-05-2009, 11:09 PM

that is true

lost240soul · 04-05-2009, 11:12 PM

thats just plan being cheap.. lol

tac 1 · 04-06-2009, 12:00 AM

ohhh.. no wonder the gas station where i go fill up was close on Monday then reopened the next day with some brand new nozzles and hoses..cheap bustard waited until he only had 2 days to comply... lol good info!

VROOOM · 04-06-2009, 11:00 AM

the problem is CARB likes to make regulations, that includes technology that isnt even available when they make the regulations. the company i work for is going through this with big rig emissions. the trucks in 2014 are supposed to be super clean except the technology to make them this clean isnt even available. so basically your screwed.

im not saying this is what happened here but it could be a factor.

drift freaq · 04-06-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VROOOM

the problem is CARB likes to make regulations, that includes technology that isnt even available when they make the regulations. the company i work for is going through this with big rig emissions. the trucks in 2014 are supposed to be super clean except the technology to make them this clean isnt even available. so basically your screwed.

im not saying this is what happened here but it could be a factor.

This is true. CARB and the legislator have a habit of legislating regulations without really doing feasibility studies. That's one of the biggest problems concerning vehicles in the state right now.
They are also bought off by the farm lobby to ignore polluting farm machinery which in the central valley spews pollution like its going out of style.

I will say though that I do not agree completely with the big rig people who are complaining. Port of LA instigated a clean rig regulation and its working. Older polluting rigs are being eliminated in favor of purchasing newer clean Diesel rigs.
Fact is a lot of the Diesel rig operators complaining were as bad as the Gas station owners that were not upgrading their pumps.
The Rigs getting pulled off the road were ancient in rig terms i.e. 10-15 (i.e. millions of miles on them) year old rigs that spewed diesel particulates like they were going out of style.
Fact is the operators were just being cheap because they were already lowballing the hauling business just to try and get ahead of their competitors.

Like seen on Zilvia, Americans are trying to be cheap as shit these days, about damn near everything.

VROOOM · 04-06-2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift freaq

This is true. CARB and the legislator have a habit of legislating regulations without really doing feasibility studies. That's one of the biggest problems concerning vehicles in the state right now.
They are also bought off by the farm lobby to ignore polluting farm machinery which in the central valley spews pollution like its going out of style.

I will say though that I do not agree completely with the big rig people who are complaining. Port of LA instigated a clean rig regulation and its working. Older polluting rigs are being eliminated in favor of purchasing newer clean Diesel rigs.
Fact is a lot of the Diesel rig operators complaining were as bad as the Gas station owners that were not upgrading their pumps.
The Rigs getting pulled off the road were ancient in rig terms i.e. 10-15 (i.e. millions of miles on them) year old rigs that spewed diesel particulates like they were going out of style.
Fact is the operators were just being cheap because they were already lowballing the hauling business just to try and get ahead of their competitors.

Like seen on Zilvia, Americans are trying to be cheap as shit these days, about damn near everything.

the problem is, the big rig guys can't be proactive because we have no idea what we are going to need to become compliant. the place i work for will have to spend so much money we may not be in business after this whole thing(especially the way the economy is right now). also you know all the trucking companies will just raise the price of products or services and almost everything is transported via truck.

oh btw its not just big rigs, all offroad equipment such as loader and dozers have to be upgraded as well. i believe all heavy equipment has to be 03 or newer. these thing cost 250k or more.

drift freaq · 04-06-2009, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VROOOM

the problem is, the big rig guys can't be proactive because we have no idea what we are going to need to become compliant. the place i work for will have to spend so much money we may not be in business after this whole thing(especially the way the economy is right now). also you know all the trucking companies will just raise the price of products or services and almost everything is transported via truck.

oh btw its not just big rigs, all offroad equipment such as loader and dozers have to be upgraded as well. i believe all heavy equipment has to be 03 or newer. these thing cost 250k or more.

I can see the excuse given the economy and in that sense the state should dial back compliance times aka target dates. While I understand the complaint that your company has and given the current economic situation.

I can also criticize all heavy equipment operators, big rig operators and farm equipment operators. Why?

For years they lobbied not to be regulated emission wise with the excuse that it would hurt their business due to costs. Though had they been taking proactive efforts on their own and made improvements. I.E. purchasing newer cleaner burning equipment , rigs and whatnot, instead of spending money on lobbyists to try and eliminate the possibility of said regulations, then they would not be in this conundrum now.

Fact is they wanted to dodge the bullet for as long as possible. Just like the gas station operators. Instead of swallowing the pill and amortizing costs over several years bit by bit.
The result? The state comes down hard finally and at the worst time and you guys are all fucked up about it.

In other words you guys had your chance to do the right thing and chose to fight and ignore rather than work towards a cleaner environment.

I have seen this diesel particulate issue go on for over ten years. It is only now that the state finally ignored the industry lobbyists and instigated long overdue rules.
Now you guys are crying we are going to go out of business, well it does not elicit much sympathy among the public who is faced with stiffer car regulations due to the fact that your own industry lobbyists put it off on cars.

In fact their was a state legislator who represented Fresno and the central valley who wanted to instigate emission tests on cars pre 1976 the official CARB cutoff year, because in his theory those 10% of the cars on the road put out 65% of the emissions. Turns out he was bought off by diesel rig, heavy equipment and farm lobbyists.

So sorry guy, while I feel you should be allowed a few more years I feel your companies excuses are just the same old cop out your industry has done for years.

Time to pay up and take responsibility for the the place you guys work in. Cars have to, why should you guys be exempt.. You are more responsible for emissions now than cars are, and that is a documented fact, especially here in the LA Basin and in the Central Valley.

VROOOM · 04-06-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift freaq

I can see the excuse given the economy and in that sense the state should dial back compliance times aka target dates. While I understand the complaint that your company has and given the current economic situation.

I can also criticize all heavy equipment operators, big rig operators and farm equipment operators. Why?

For years they lobbied not to be regulated emission wise with the excuse that it would hurt their business due to costs. Though had they been taking proactive efforts on their own and made improvements. I.E. purchasing newer cleaner burning equipment , rigs and whatnot, instead of spending money on lobbyists to try and eliminate the possibility of said regulations, then they would not be in this conundrum now.

Fact is they wanted to dodge the bullet for as long as possible. Just like the gas station operators. Instead of swallowing the pill and amortizing costs over several years bit by bit.
The result? The state comes down hard finally and at the worst time and you guys are all fucked up about it.

In other words you guys had your chance to do the right thing and chose to fight and ignore rather than work towards a cleaner environment.

I have seen this diesel particulate issue go on for over ten years. It is only now that the state finally ignored the industry lobbyists and instigated long overdue rules.
Now you guys are crying we are going to go out of business, well it does not elicit much sympathy among the public who is faced with stiffer car regulations due to the fact that your own industry lobbyists put it off on cars.

In fact their was a state legislator who represented Fresno and the central valley who wanted to instigate emission tests on cars pre 1976 the official CARB cutoff year, because in his theory those 10% of the cars on the road put out 65% of the emissions. Turns out he was bought off by diesel rig, heavy equipment and farm lobbyists.

So sorry guy, while I feel you should be allowed a few more years I feel your companies excuses are just the same old cop out your industry has done for years.

Time to pay up and take responsibility for the the place you guys work in. Cars have to, why should you guys be exempt.. You are more responsible for emissions now than cars are, and that is a documented fact, especially here in the LA Basin and in the Central Valley.

oh i know its gonna happen, but the problem is we cant even buy trucks right now that will be compliant in 5 years, how can we spread the cost over many years if we dont even know what we need to buy? the idea is good, but execution of it is horrible.

one of the new technologies that may help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_launch_assist

unlegendary · 04-06-2009, 12:36 PM

i already see this being done in san diego. lots of gas stations are being closed, especially in the not so good areas lol.

drift freaq · 04-06-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VROOOM

oh i know its gonna happen, but the problem is we cant even buy trucks right now that will be compliant in 5 years, how can we spread the cost over many years if we dont even know what we need to buy? the idea is good, but execution of it is horrible.

one of the new technologies that may help

Hydraulic Launch Assist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

well you may have some validity in your words written above. I am glad you're able to see both sides of the argument. I agree there are some flaws in the application of the idea. I think the best thing the industry could do is go to Sacramento and say look you're right lets work together and do it right.

What you have now is knee jerk reactions from both sides. First you had the industry adamant knee jerk refusal to look towards better ways and just stonewall. Now you have the state, after years of being stonewalled taking a draconian approach. Due to the very refusal of the industry to voluntarily look for alternatives.

Its the same deal with Gas stations. The state said years ago fix this issue. In Northern California most stations actually did. When I moved to socal I was shocked to see outdated fuel hoses on most of gas station pumps.
While the stations had the regulation they refused to do anything till the last day of compliance.

While the diesel emissions rose the industry fought the state tooth and nail for no emissions regulations. Claiming economic hardship. Thing is, this has been going on for well over ten years. If the industry had started working on it ten years ago instead of just fighting it? There would be more alternatives, in the pipeline already.

Again while the implementation can be faulted I cannot say the industry did not bring this upon themselves. Ignoring basic facts and truth is really not an excuse.

illvialuver · 04-14-2009, 03:38 AM

But what do you think the lashback will be? If all these places go out of business the cost of gas will skyrocket, because less stations means less availability, less competion and higher prices. Which really really sucks. If the governor and the state can not get the budget done in time, how can we expect the small gas stations to spend tons of cash. I think they should definately get some slack in the department of time. Even if it is a year or two. It is only going to save a small percentile of emissions.

**Phlip** · 04-14-2009, 07:11 PM

I was reading somewhere that Gilbarco makes pumps that make these nozzles unnecessary, that ALSO compensate for the difference between the amount of gas you would get when it is cold compared to when it is warm (hint: fill up in the morning, folks), but the industry on the whole shat on the idea because it would SLIGHTLY lower their profits by being EFFICIENT.
Now, Gilbarco (which is headquartered here in my home city) is the larger of only 2 major gas pump manufacturers and seemed to want to have something that bettered the situation with what they have available, but because that solution actually asks people to understand and tighten their fucking belts, it didn't go over well...

So, stations drag their asses on a "costly upgrade," but the fact remains that while they call gas "low margin," that the other things in the store are not, and the NECESSITY of gas makes for built-in sales... If the stations need to close because of this, then fuck them, they saw it coming.

steve shadows · 04-14-2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I10cruiser

but 11000 thousand dollars for one pump is fucking retarded

It's the lefties in Sacramento, left wing nuts and right wing push overs parading around who are really left wing nuts

This is what happens when Berkely grads and beurocrats run cali

its only going to get worse, and more and more business will keep losing the state which means fewer and fewer jobs...

04-05-2009, 09:00 PM	#1
ZilviaBot Zilvia.net Bot Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 199 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	REPORT: Half of California gas stations could face closure for failing to install cos 03-31-2009 01:20 PM Filed under: Government/Legal, Green, Tech, Earnings/Financials According to the Los Angeles Daily News, California gas station operators have known since 2000 that they would have to install new nozzles on their gas pumps by tomorrow's deadline. And yet at least 2,000 of the 3,900 stations in the Southern California region and 60 percent of stations statewide have failed to do exactly that. The California Air Resources Board ruled nine years ago that gas pumps would have to be equipped with enhanced vapor recovery nozzles that capture and recirculate the gasoline vapors that inevitably escape while pumping gas. Unfortunately, the narrow margins of gas retailing and high cost of the nozzles has made stations owners reluctant to spend the money. The equipment costs roughly $11,000 per pump. Starting April 1, stations that haven't upgraded will start to face fines that will be ramped up toward the end of this year. Stations that haven't made the changes by the end of 2009 face closure. [Source: Los Angeles Daily News \| Image: Justin Sullivan/Getty]REPORT: Half of California gas stations could face closure for failing to install costly new nozzles originally appeared on Autoblog on Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:20:00 EST. Please see our terms for use of feeds. ReadÂ\|ÂPermalinkÂ\|ÂEmail thisÂ\|ÂComments More...

04-05-2009, 10:26 PM	#3
I10cruiser Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: los angeles Age: 32 Posts: 3,053 Trader Rating: (47) Rides Gallery: I10cruiser Feedback Score: 47 reviews	but 11000 thousand dollars for one pump is fucking retarded __________________

04-05-2009, 11:09 PM	#5
I10cruiser Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: los angeles Age: 32 Posts: 3,053 Trader Rating: (47) Rides Gallery: I10cruiser Feedback Score: 47 reviews	that is true __________________

04-06-2009, 12:36 PM	#13
unlegendary Zilvia Addict Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: with my parents Posts: 625 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	i already see this being done in san diego. lots of gas stations are being closed, especially in the not so good areas lol. __________________ Full Time Student for Life

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04-05-2009, 09:41 PM	#2
lost240soul Zilvia Addict Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: so cal 91761 Age: 32 Posts: 742 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	Dam thats carzy .. but serves them right if they've known about it since 2000..

04-05-2009, 10:53 PM	#4
lost240soul Zilvia Addict Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: so cal 91761 Age: 32 Posts: 742 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	^^ im pretty sure in the last 9 years they have made enough money to fix them..even if they fixed one pump a year...

04-05-2009, 11:12 PM	#6
lost240soul Zilvia Addict Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: so cal 91761 Age: 32 Posts: 742 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	thats just plan being cheap.. lol

04-06-2009, 12:00 AM	#7
tac 1 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: los angeles Posts: 321 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	ohhh.. no wonder the gas station where i go fill up was close on Monday then reopened the next day with some brand new nozzles and hoses..cheap bustard waited until he only had 2 days to comply... lol good info!

04-14-2009, 03:38 AM	#15
illvialuver Post Whore! Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: M-A-R-S... MARS BITCHES Age: 38 Posts: 5,065 Trader Rating: (35) Feedback Score: 35 reviews	But what do you think the lashback will be? If all these places go out of business the cost of gas will skyrocket, because less stations means less availability, less competion and higher prices. Which really really sucks. If the governor and the state can not get the budget done in time, how can we expect the small gas stations to spend tons of cash. I think they should definately get some slack in the department of time. Even if it is a year or two. It is only going to save a small percentile of emissions.