Sevz180

Hey guys, I'm completely new to the car scene and looking at getting a new turbo for my 180sx.

I was looking at the GT2871r from Enjuku Racing but have read that the tech is old so I've been looking at the GTX2867r.

Would this turbo bolt on to a 180sx Red Top SR20DET?

If no, what parts would I need to buy and where can I get them from? I've been looking for a complete upgrade kit but haven't managed to find one.

Thanks in advance

Kingtal0n

new to the scene or new to cars and mechanics?

If I had a redtop stock bottom end I would use a top mount t3 / t04E turbo, say 50trim

it will support 380rwhp and very affordable

Although Garret is king of turbo and GT(x) is a great turbo etc... They are very expensive and you get almost no benefit using one over a typical top mount journal deal on a stock engine like a redtop.

jr_ss

Don’t listen to this guy ^. While he has valid points on somethings, other times he’s out of his mind.

The GTX2863R would be better suited to your needs. If you don’t have a solid bottomend(built) keep it under 400whp. T2 footprint turbos will bolt up, but you will need an intake and other associated items for it. Be prepared for possible boost creep, which may require you to add an external gate on the factory manifold, which is tried and proven setup.

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My SR20VET

Sevz180

Completely new to modifying cars / mechanics.

Yeah I've got a stock engine. No work has been done on it. What parts would I need for it if I did go GTX2863R?

I'm looking to upgrade my intake manifold, get bigger injectors, z32 maf, etc when I get this turbo. just unsure on which turbo to get now or what parts I need for it to all work together.

blksylv

Whats your power goal and what kind of response are you looking for?

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Sevz180

Probably around 300-350hp. Nothing too insane considering I have stock internals at the moment. But eventually I'll upgrade the bottom end.
I want quite a responsive turbo with not too much lag

Would you guys recommend the gt2871r over the gtx2867r on stock internals?

20 til 3

The gtx housing is very big for bottom mount on the SR, I had to modify and make a bracket for the internal gate on my old Garrett gt2871 exhaust housing . I would have to suggest a top mount setup for this turbo.

But they do make a gt25 something now that is designed for the SR bottom mount basically.

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jr_ss

I?d suggest you spend some time familiarizing yourself with all the SR information available on this site.

The 2863R is smaller than the 67, which will help keep spool down, but still allow for good midrange and top end power. Leave the intake manifold alone. Plan on a FMIC, full exhaust, minimum 750cc injectors and a tuned ECU. You?ll also need intake and a hot pipe for the new turbo.

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My SR20VET

xpinoyxmk

Have a gtx2867 on my 180sx. Bolted up fine but I didn't try with the internal gate. I used a step-up coupler from the compressor housing to a 3 inch 45 degree pipe that was used for intake. Response was far better than my old HKS GT-RS.

My mods below for reference put down 310whp last year since I upgraded to a standalone. Been running at this power level for about 6 years now.

1992 180sx
unopened sr20det
gtx2867r @ 18lbs(external gate on stock mani)
hks 740cc
Haltech Elite 1500 (only reason is my Enthalpy ecu randomly burned out but lasted for 4 years of abuse)

Only difference with the Enthalpy ecu was the z32 mafs but believe I was at 20ish lbs since his tunes run a little rich.

tb13

Stock bottom end I assume? You can make 350-400whp pretty reliably with a good tune and supporting mods.

I'd do a GTX2867 or GTX2863 with a .86 housing, this is going to help keep low end in check, if you throw too much boost at a stock bottom down low you are bound to send a rod out the side. These turbos move a lot more air and mover it really efficiently, this is great for a built engine, but can quickly kill a stock bottom end.

Check out what ATP offers, they've got a bunch of options for the SR that use the standard style compressor housing, simplifying the install. They've also got oil feed and coolant lines to match.

ATP SR20DET Turbo Upgrades

Quick list of what you'll need to bolt it on and rip:

-Turbo
-New gaskets all around
-Oil feed line
-Coolant lines
-T28 oil drain fitting
-T28 oil drain hose
-T28 compressor inlet/outlet adapters
-Larger injectors (740-1000CC)
-Larger MAF (Z32 is the go-to)
-Larger intake tube suited to the MAF
-Filter adapter for MAF
-Tune-able ECU (Up to personal preference on which one)

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Sevz180

Hi thanks for this! Current turbo is a T25g so I assume I'd just find T25 inlet/outlet adapter, etc instead of the T28 ones?

Sevz180

Thanks for this! I assume I just swap out the T28 parts for T25 since current motor has a T25g turbo?

KiDyNomiTe

GTX2863 is fantastic, I have one. Used to run it on internal gate, making around 330-360, but did have boost creep as previously mentioned. Switched to external gate eventually, been using that since making 380ish.

As far as bottom mount vs top mount. If you are sticking to under 400 bottom mount is way simpler, especially if you already have FMIC, piping, turbo outlet, and downpipe. All that bolts up. Top mount requires replacing all that, and typically top mount piping has to be custom made. Sounds like yours is RHD, so you at least don't have to deal with a lot of the shielding involved for LHD.

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PROCEED
Grip Gambler

nick_d_240sx

You can get the GTX2863 and 2867 as a bolt on turbo and no modifications are needed except an oil feed restrictor (Factory banjo bolt is M12x1.25). All of the stock turbo stuff should work as long as you get the correct turbine/compressor housings. You can port the wastegate opening to avoid creep. Obviously you'll want some new gaskets and crush washers.

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1990 240SX SR20DET GTX2863R

pacotaco345

I run the new gen 2 GTX2860, it made 360 wheel bottom mount, internal gate, no weird modifications needed to make it fit. Spools like stock and I only needed 16 pounds (no boost creep) to make that number. The turbo still has plenty left to make low 400s if I turn it up.

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Kingtal0n

u guys are crazy to put such an expensive turbo on a stock redtop with probably high mileage

ur even more crazy for trying to keep a t25 flange on it

If i had a redtop right now I would rock a $400 turbo with a rebuildable center section because the engines life is timed and when it goes it could eat the turbo along with it

Absolutely no reason to use such an expensive unit

I just tuned a built sr with one of those new garret turbos. the compressor flows like 55lb/min we were able to squeeze 440rwhp from the injectors but it took 28psi of boost

So $5000 engine + $2000 turbo and you get around 50 more horsepower, and that was a top mount unit too. NOT WORTH IT

Totally pointless on a stock engine because you won't use 28 psi of boost. Just use a cheap turbo good for pump fuel and 18~psi of boost IMO

I stand behind my advice. use a cheap oem engine with a cheap turbo. Keep spare of both. 18psi 380rwhp. Not like you are going to get much more than that from any other turbo on a stock engine.. whats the point of spending extra...

Kingtal0n

new turbo tech GTX garret top mount v-band, 28psi built engine, 93 + 50/50 meth injection


old turbo tech T3 .48 a/r garret from 12 years ago, 19psi built engine 93 octane only


I'd have to check but I would say theres around 400 to 500rpm difference in spool and that they would make identical power on pump fuel because you are limited by boost pressure on gasoline and not compressor flow rate.

Not worth the xtra $7000~ for the built engine and expensive turbo just for a little more spool. And then it needs better fuel, we did 440rwhp with Methanol 50/50 injection. So Include that whole system or E85 into the mix if you want over 20psi of boost with these engines safely. Just for an extra 50 to 80 horsepower.. yeah nty. Well technically the skys the limit, I'm just saying for T-25 sized exhaust hole, you aren't going much over 20psi of boost and 450rwhp... it would be silly.
engine is much happier, cooler, and better off with a top mount T3 sized hole, larger turbine, nice big compressor on a cheap journal bearing turbo is ideal. And when the motor blows the turbo can be replaced cheaply.

Sevz180

Engine has done 110xxx KMs on it. So would you just recommend something like a GT2871R?

Kingtal0n

im just saying i would not use an expensive turbo or one with with a tiny turbine. Don't buy a used turbo either. There are some good quality inexpensive units out there.

T-25 is too small for my climate (80*F~). The type of turbine is based on ambient conditions and vehicle use. Daily drivers started in very cold climates enjoy very small turbines when total flow rate is on the low side, its good for super cold weather and on-off on-off mountain pass stuff probably near stock turbo flow rate (320bhp or 32lb/min and roughly 280rwhp dynojet). But its just too hot here, on gasoline, and we do way too much highway racing and constant pull type WOT racing, 1/2 mile and 1 mile applications are different thinking. You don't want the exhaust gas pressure of a T-25 hole, when the egt gets high, exhaust gas molecules gain so much energy they create too much space around them, the pressure goes way up which chokes the flow rate dramatically. The exhaust pressure is far more important to engine flow rate than the head in a turbo app and you the balance of getting it warm enough fast enough to be driving right away (T-25 daily driver original size turbo in freezing weather with 95 octane pump) against the on-set of heat soaked, peak steady state temps with 93 octane in hot climates, the turbine is way too small for us and our 93, and most unfortunately don't do much about the heating. Insulation helps with performance but packs even more heat into the turbine. Disregard all of this if you live in a freezing climate and need to drive and boost the car within minutes of starting it on city streets, the 28whatever is a great selection worth every penny.

It's a double edged sword and when the turbine is tiny the price is paid in... blood... engine blood

in general just realize that,
small high quality water cooled bb bottom mount turbo is just as expensive as a similar quality top mount turbo with a larger turbine, spend the 2k or 3k on that instead if spending that much, but then you better take great care of the engine and tune it properly and know what you are doing. Otherwise it won't matter what turbo you choose, the parts will falll out

Dboyizmlg

SR20det engines don?t sell for $5,000 at least not in my area. They are going for around $2,900 average pricing.

AND, the GTX2863r are going for around $1,295

Where the heck did you get those numbers from ??? Lol

Dboyizmlg

Hahahaha lol shots fired!

RalliartRsX

If it was up to king, cars will stil be running 26 sec 1/4 milers times, cars will stell get 2 mpg and DD affordable high HP cars wouldnt exist...


Anyways, slap the GTX on there. A T3 whatever the fuck 40 year old turbo, will be an utter dog on a 2 liter .I had one. I have since been through a
T25
T28
S15 T28
GT2871R
EFR6258 (on car for less than 20 miles)
EFR 6758
EFR7163

Also, I have said this upteen times. A dyno graph is 20% of the equation. Real world drivability is impossible to capture on a dyno but king continues to post his outdate dyno graphs to back up his outdated thought process.....

Get a GTX. Make 400 reliable WHP on corn, 350 on pump, spool like a T25, and go hurt some feelings.

5t341tH

Is the gtx2863 the same physical size as a s15 t28? My engine swap has limited space in my datsun for a larger turbo

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lexus baby

RalliartRsX

Yes it is the same physical size

Dboyizmlg

Yes it is!!!

You can also buy it T25 style flange which will be identical in external dimensions


https://www.tf-works.com/garrett-gtx...e-t25-flanged/

Kingtal0n

$5000 is just for the parts and machine work to build the engine with forged pistons and rods.

You also need the $3000 to buy the engine stock.

So $8000 if you want the total price of engine + built.

You need those parts if you want to run more than 400rwhp through a 2.0L from 20 years ago

Kingtal0n

You are thinking about old turbos, and I am not suggesting an old turbo.
already said 'do not buy a used turbo.'

I gave the general size of a compressor/turbine and suggested that he buy a brand new turbo that flows those requirements for half the price or less of the GTX style while including the turbine space necessary for the future and to keep temps and pressure down on the stock engine which is critical at those boost pressures on gasoline

For example borg warner $800 turbo supports 400 500 600 at that price range and is brand new. And the turbine is large enough that when it heats up it won't choke the engine or overheat the fragile cast pistons as easily.


Finally, the turbo tech has improved dramatically for all turbos in 2020 not just Garret. Everybody has the advanced wheel designs and superior materials available now, even the $150 turbos are showing good results at 800rwhp.

But what really improved since 20 years?
1. Adiabatic efficiency went up maybe 1 or 2% NOT MUCH
2. Flow rates have nearly doubled given the similar size 200% power
3. spool character improved also due to wheel design and shapes

For #1
So why didn't adiabatic efficiency go up much in the last 20-40 years?

Its because when compressing air there is a limit to how much heat you can withhold, due to friction of air molecules rubbing together naturally as pressure increases.

What does that mean for us? It means that a compressor from 40 years ago working in the center of it's island is just as capable as a compressor from today, give or take some minor adjustment 1 or 2% difference (today you might have Adiabatic of 72 or 74% whereas back then 70% was good)

Implies -> that new turbos are not 'better' at supporting more power with less boost. Its basically the same once the turbo is spooled.
The advantage modern turbos offer is their 'spool' and tolerance of higher pressure ratios, and greater total flow rates...

For #2, modern turbos unlock unlimited potential for power. It sounds great at first, but when we look at our stock, ancient 2.0L engine we realize something: both old and modern turbos support more power than we can use on a stock engine.

So if we combine #1 and #2 we see that a modern turbo literally offers nothing in terms of cooler air or increased power on a stock 2L engine.

All we have is #3- > Spool character

And yes you get some additional spool using a tiny ass turbine. Duh. That is a general concept regardless of how modern a turbo is.

And this is where our thoughts about how turbos should work diverge greatly.
A turbo isn't governed by a belt. It is not attached to the engine rotating speed.

that means you can speed up the turbine prior to demand, i.e. 2-steps, nitrous, timing tricks, pre-heating, use your imagination. There are MANY ways to get the boost you want, when you want it, whether on track or street there is always a way.

This is where application divides needs.
For drag racing you don't want or need the spool character, you need the larger turbine to take care of the rising EGT and extended pulls, and can spool the turbo (any turbo) using one of those techniques.

For daily driving or on-off (corners?) racing, in cold weather, the tiny turbine is not an issue and the extra small space gives extra spool which helps provides more torque when not employing any tricks of spool.


Yes you have to match turbo style to driving applications. But there are so few applications where the tiny turbine and tiny T-25 statute is actually desirable given that all modern turbos including those top mount with huge turbines have improved dramatically in terms of spool just like the small turbos have. Which levels the playing field in terms of spool if the top mount has an actual equal length (or even twin scroll style) manifold it will still spool like a modern bottom mount unit with a smaller turbine. So in the end of everything we see that there really is no advantage to using a bottom mount in 2020, not power, not efficiency, and just barely in very cold weather you will get some minor spool improvement while the engine is warming up. Thats it.

Kingtal0n

Showing GTX turbo vs comprable Borg Warner unit

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...l#post11872920

GTX3582r vs S362 borg warner


dyno results
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...l#post11874286


1. The Top mounted Borg warner on a 2L engine is just as capable as the GTX series if not more on the right manifold.
2. Even with such a huge turbo it reaches the same boost pressure/torque as the tiny t-25 turbine (300ft*lbs near 4k rpm) = ~25psi of boost at 4k rpm on 93 octane, can't ask for more from 2L , it reaches 20psi by 3800rpm.

There is almost nothing to lose going large on the turbo / turbine these days. No reason to use a small tiny turbine and choke your engine anymore.

e30gangsta

Another option is the new ns400. I haven't seen anyone mention it yet. Dual ball bearing, 400 wheel hp, bolt on, no need for a new manifold, or external wg, and you can use an existing turbo elbow/down pipe.

https://mmpturbos.com/blogs/news/wel...e-family-ns400

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Need aftermarket parts? PM or DM me competitive pricing! [email protected]

Kingtal0n

400 is slow now. Need 600 or 800hp in 2020 ! lol

every car has 400 now. New 2L VolksW make 500 to the tires with factory engines. There are electric cars that outrun 500hp cars too.
Anyone can buy a 900hp dodge and a ?00hp corvette. How we gonna keep up with that?


800 is the new 400

Actually it doesn't matter how much power you make with a 5-speed those newer cars with automatic and traction control will outrun with less power.
So we need to convert all our cars to automatic obviously and use larger engines.
I'm full of helpful advice aren't eye