Might piss some people off but oh well. - Page 4 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

ronmcdon · 02-23-2010, 04:50 PM

For those who contribute less,
there's some degree of responsibility that also falls on our government.
The government gives questionable incentives.
If people can take advantage of certain things, they simply will.
I.e., you make it convenient for ppl to leech, they probably will consider it.

If you want to encourage ppl to be a bit more self-sufficient (within modern day society),
simply reward productivity, and not complacency.
you don't have to go to rash measures like genocide.
you don't even have to punish ppl.

there's also a lot to be said about the dismal efficiency & effectiveness of our public system,
but that's another can of worms.

Otto347 · 02-23-2010, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

If people can take advantage of certain things, they simply will.
I.e., you make it convenient for ppl to leech, they probably will consider it.

Thats the damn truth. I have a co worker that does this multiple times on a daily basis. Ignores the rules, fucks around, texts on his phone, sits in the bathroom for 30 god damn minutes but then again the owner of the company is a fucking pussy and nothing is ever done about it so it gets worse. That type of shit gets me fucking livid, not to mention this kid is 21 and guess what? His girlfriend is pregnant and they are having a kid in another few months. I just see what a worthless fuck this guy is and he is breeding? We can solve this problem right now, allthough my way is a bit harsh and would involve a gun and shallow hole DO NOT LET USELESS FUCKS BREED! Oh if only I was aroung in another 200 years to see if Idiocracy will come true one day.....................

I like 0100s idea about the test, youre born, you test, you fail, you die. You pass you live. Just like the good ol Spartans! lol

jspaeth · 02-23-2010, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0100

I am not saying not to help out your fellow man, just don't spoon feed him. If you give a man a fish.... Even in the wild animals will help each other out, just look at an ant colony. The animals in the wild however know when enough help is enough.

Personally, I have NO problem giving to CERTAIN groups of people, without expecting ANYTHING from those people:

Handicapped people
Mentally challenged
Wounded veterans
Giving loans (need to be repaid) to people going through a rough time.

What I DO have a HUGE problem with is the handout society we've created in which people feel that it is their RIGHT to healthcare, having a nice house, etc.

Generally speaking, the people that i fell need to "go" are the ones who ARE physically and capable of learning a skill or doing something (ANYTHING, like digging a ditch, carrying something around, filing a woman's nails, ANYTHING) to earn their keep, but they are instead just GIVEN things without having to pay back.

EDIT: And I do not mean to say that in a bad way. Any job, no matter how "medial" is a contribution to society. If someone is willing to pay for something or trade their goods/services for it, it is valuable.

Being able to paint pictures that no one will buy or being the best basketball player in your neighborhood are NOT considered valuable according to my definition. If someone will buy the pictures or higher you to play basketball, then you become valuable.

OBEEWON · 02-24-2010, 10:08 AM

I cannot agree that we are animals. That is just plain incorrect.

I do not like/agree with those who "take advantage of the government" and survive on freebee's. But the funny thing is even those free loaders provide stimulus to the country. Thier existence is not 100% parasitic. If they ceased to exist there would be massive reprocussions.

I would argue big wigs in financial institutions take more advantage of the government and are responsible for upsetting the symbiotic balance of society more so than welfare recipients. Welfare has never caused a country to decline.

There are just too many things not being factored in, and too many assumptions being made. If everyone started from the same blocks then these arguements would be valid.

No one is in the position to determine who lives and dies. Just because one doesn't believe in something does not mean it does not exist. Morality is real. Humanity is real. There are boundries to living.

If you don't want something done to you, don't do it to someone else. If we could do this there would be no issues.

The more government present the more societal problems permiate communities. Less government = more personal responsibility. Government encourages apathy and blame. Government tells you it's not your fault you are an idiot, so we will fix it for you.

Example: No child left behind sounds good, but it in fact makes for less qualified graduates.

jspaeth · 02-24-2010, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

I do not like/agree with those who "take advantage of the government" and survive on freebee's. But the funny thing is even those free loaders provide stimulus to the country. Thier existence is not 100% parasitic. If they ceased to exist there would be massive reprocussions. Welfare has never caused a country to decline.

I disagree, because the money that pays for these people comes out of someone else's pocket, someone who would be also spend the money and put it back into the economy.

YES, the freeloaders are parasitic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBEEWON

The more government present the more societal problems permiate communities. Less government = more personal responsibility. Government encourages apathy and blame. Government tells you it's not your fault you are an idiot, so we will fix it for you.

Example: No child left behind sounds good, but it in fact makes for less qualified graduates.

This part is true.

RNGWLD · 02-25-2010, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otto347

what was that, didn't quite hear you?

My bad. I forgot who I was talking too. Im sorry I didn't include big pictures with captions this time

I'll try to include more colorful illustrations next time

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0100

^+1

OBEEWON & RNGWLD, you guys are missing the point. It has absolutely nothing to do with race, color, or creed. Nothing.

I am not saying not to help out your fellow man, just don't spoon feed him. If you give a man a fish.... Even in the wild animals will help each other out, just look at an ant colony. The animals in the wild however know when enough help is enough.

I just think its funny to hear so many people bitch about "survival of the fittest" and advocate social Darwinism taken to such an extreme as to encourage social eugenics as if "they" were all that. On a freaking online car forum.

Just the simple fact that you have a luxury such as a car, that most of us use more like a toy/recreational vehicle, and that you have the time and means to go into an online forum to talk about how cool your ride is, puts you amongst some of the most pampered and privileged % of the world's population. Something tells me that all these tough guys talking about survival of the fittest and wiping out "the weak" would shit their pants if they stepped outside the safety boundaries of their little enclosed world in America.

Its easy to say "cant make a living? too bad!" when you live in a country where you actually can make a pretty decent living by being a hardworker and where the government provides you with safety. Its real easy to feel entitled and superior because "your hard work got you where you are", when you live under conditions where this is basically guaranteed and the system is set up to help you. In comparison to other parts of the world, we are spoon fed and babied.

And no, for all the aspiring Mengeles, its not just a scientific question. This shit was discussed and taken seriously like back in the 19th/early 20th century, when people actually took seriously the arguments being presented here about the need to separate the strong for the weak, the "useful" from the "not useful".

Do you think Hitler just burst into the scene and said "hi ppl lets murder all the mentally handicapped/gypsies/jews/inferior beings!" ? No. He, and the hundreds of scientists and doctors which helped perpetrate the Genocide where the logical outcome of decades and decades of intellectual and scientific views which advocated eugenics and questioned whether "superior" human beings had more rights than "inferior" ones. If you read their letters/papers/arguments, they are frightengly similar to some of the comments posted by some people here. In other words, nothing said by these people on the subject is either original, new, or particularly smart. This shit went out of style like a hundred years ago. Please get with the fucking times.

OBEEWON · 02-25-2010, 09:37 AM

Again I agree^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by jspaeth

I disagree, because the money that pays for these people comes out of someone else's pocket, someone who would be also spend the money and put it back into the economy.

YES, the freeloaders are parasitic.

No argument that "freeloaders" have a drain on our country. But thier stimulus cannot be denied. If the money came from peoples taxes (pockets) and stayed in the welfare system I could agree. But a dollar stays in a welfare recipients household much faster than any other community. It is spent and put into the economy right away. They recieve vouchers and subsidized living, not cash.

Aside from that the US has the most wealthy "poor" in the whole world.

Time on AFDC
---------------------------
Less than 7 months 19.0%
7 to 12 months 15.2
One to two years 19.3
Two to five years 26.9
Over five years 19.6

Number of children
-------------------
One 43.2%
Two 30.7
Three 15.8
Four or more 10.3

Age of Mother
------------------
Teenager 7.6%
20 - 29 47.9
30 - 39 32.7
40 or older 11.8

Status of Father 1973 1992
-------------------------------------
Divorced or separated 46.5% 28.6
Deceased 5.0 1.6
Unemployed or Disabled 14.3 9.0
Not married to mother 31.5 55.3
Other or Unknown 2.7 5.5

Interesting link to some welfare myths.

https://www.msu.edu/user/skourtes/myths.html

HalveBlue · 02-25-2010, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RNGWLD

My bad. I forgot who I was talking too. Im sorry I didn't include big pictures with captions this time

I'll try to include more colorful illustrations next time

I just think its funny to hear so many people bitch about "survival of the fittest" and advocate social Darwinism taken to such an extreme as to encourage social eugenics as if "they" were all that. On a freaking online car forum.

Just the simple fact that you have a luxury such as a car, that most of us use more like a toy/recreational vehicle, and that you have the time and means to go into an online forum to talk about how cool your ride is, puts you amongst some of the most pampered and privileged % of the world's population. Something tells me that all these tough guys talking about survival of the fittest and wiping out "the weak" would shit their pants if they stepped outside the safety boundaries of their little enclosed world in America.

Its easy to say "cant make a living? too bad!" when you live in a country where you actually can make a pretty decent living by being a hardworker and where the government provides you with safety. Its real easy to feel entitled and superior because "your hard work got you where you are", when you live under conditions where this is basically guaranteed and the system is set up to help you. In comparison to other parts of the world, we are spoon fed and babied.

And no, for all the aspiring Mengeles, its not just a scientific question. This shit was discussed and taken seriously like back in the 19th/early 20th century, when people actually took seriously the arguments being presented here about the need to separate the strong for the weak, the "useful" from the "not useful".

Do you think Hitler just burst into the scene and said "hi ppl lets murder all the mentally handicapped/gypsies/jews/inferior beings!" ? No. He, and the hundreds of scientists and doctors which helped perpetrate the Genocide where the logical outcome of decades and decades of intellectual and scientific views which advocated eugenics and questioned whether "superior" human beings had more rights than "inferior" ones. If you read their letters/papers/arguments, they are frightengly similar to some of the comments posted by some people here. In other words, nothing said by these people on the subject is either original, new, or particularly smart. This shit went out of style like a hundred years ago. Please get with the fucking times.

God I wish we still had the rep system. +1,000,000 imaginary rep points to you my friend.

There will be free loaders in any system, even without welfare. You think they didn't have beggars in ancient times?

Consider it parasitic drag, if you will. There may be ways to reduce it, but it's impossible to get rid off.

The welfare system should be a way for people to get back on their feet and to support those that aren't capable of taking care of themselves.

This thread is dominated by anecdotes and conjecture - I have yet to see any data proving the existence of these supposed masses of Cadillac driving welfare recipients.

For what it's worth, from my experience - based on several years of community outreach work - most welfare recipients are single mothers. There's also a lot of people who receive government assistance (like food stamps) but still hold down a job - they're called the working poor and their numbers have been increasing in the last several years. Then there's the physically or mentally handicapped person that receives aid. Lastly there's your typical alcoholic/drug addict.

The overwhelming majority of those receiving government aid fall into one of the above situations, or even a combination of them.

But I guess it's easier to simply point the finger and write off all these people as social parasites.

Quite frankly, I'd rather have a system that aids those in need - with the off chance that some will abuse the system - than one in which corporations are given corporate welfare in the form of tax breaks and subsidies.

Otto347 · 02-26-2010, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RNGWLD

My bad. I forgot who I was talking too. Im sorry I didn't include big pictures with captions this time

I'll try to include more colorful illustrations next time

Nah its cool, I donts needs thems

You know I can appreciate what you are writing and you have some valid points but when you come in here and start acting like a fucking blow hard then I just skip over what you say/write. Try keeping this a discussion and stop being a fucking dickhole.

raz0rbladez909 · 03-05-2010, 05:25 AM

Honestly I don't see why we keep murderers/dangerous criminals and people

on death row alive, we really do it to ourselves. What purpose does a

man/woman serving a life sentence in jail have? Imagine the cost per day to

feed, clothe, clean and shelter these "people" I can't begin to wonder the

amount we spend annually just in the U.S. alone, if you fucked up bad

enough to get life in prison it's not like you're some great person that

contributes great things to society. And I'm sorry if any of you have family

members in this situation but it sucks for them, should've thought about the

dumb shit you did before you did it. Cost each and every one of the

taxpayers in this country every single day. I don't believe in just wiping out

weak or stupid people, they usually tend to do it themselves, but I wouldn't

think twice about getting rid of murderers, child mollesters, and all those

other fuck ups.

Otto347 · 03-05-2010, 05:39 AM

People would say thats inhumane. Fuck those lifers. You fucked up, time to die.

Only problem I see with that is people who are wrongly accused or are really innocent. There are a few, but habitual offenders.....a bullet is cheaper than feeding and taking care of them for years and years.

theicecreamdan · 03-05-2010, 09:50 AM

Its a lot better to make the mistake of keeping them alive than to kill the wrong person.

sirfallsalot243 · 03-05-2010, 10:15 AM

If youre gonna keep a lifer alive and incarcerated until he dies, he should have to generate the money that it costs to keep him alive. Every inmate should be BRINGING IN money for the system, not taking away from it.

I mean, shit, youre in jail. Youve got nothing but time. Might as well put these guys to work. We have work programs in place now in jails, but its all optional. Put these fuckers to work for 8 hrs a day.

Thats the only solution I can think of to the argument above me, about killing the wrong person. Its a shame that it takes so long to finally kill a REAL murderer, but youre right.. it'd be fucked up if an innocent person got the axe.

I still think life sentences should be done away with though. When someone is facing the death penalty and its pretty obvious theyre guilty, its almost always an option to "plead guilty" to get life in prison instead. Fuck that. Try them, convict them, and sentence them to what they deserve. You take a life? We'll take yours. Eye for an eye.

raz0rbladez909 · 03-05-2010, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theicecreamdan

Its a lot better to make the mistake of keeping them alive than to kill the wrong person.

I didn't mean every possible person, but the cases that are clear cut i.e. child mollesters, murderers, rapists, that have plenty of evidence against them really should be dropped on the spot.

ronmcdon · 03-05-2010, 12:41 PM

slave labor could be a cost-effective alternative to out-sourcing to another country.
I know I'd rather have an American felon for tech support, than "Bob" from India.

I executed properly, our prisons would be a gold-mine of cheap labor.
I know it's been done before, but consider the possibilities if were orchestrated by a cost-effect private co.!
Imagine something like GM building a plant inside Folsom prison, lol

fckillerbee · 03-05-2010, 01:36 PM

I haven't been in this thread...but imagine a inmate threatening a customer of tech support cause they just don't get it....mmmm...might be bad...however...constructiong jobs would be wonderful!!!!

Otto347 · 03-05-2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronmcdon

slave labor could be a cost-effective alternative to out-sourcing to another country.
I know I'd rather have an American felon for tech support, than "Bob" from India.

Can you imagine if inmates worked at call centers lol that would be fucking awesome!

HalveBlue · 03-06-2010, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otto347

Can you imagine if inmates worked at call centers lol that would be fucking awesome!

Too late!

INMATE JOBS. - Free Online Library

prodigyJJ · 03-06-2010, 07:52 AM

I agree with the above argument involving inmates and the prison system. I LOATHE the term inmate rights. <----That's bullshit.

Another argument to point out is our government. I'll be the first to say that since Clinton our nation has been jacked up. Deregulation, a lack of transparency, and no accountability have really helped create this beast of a deficit. I think that politicians are the ones that shold be highest on the chopping block. Let's make it survival of the fittest for all elective jobs in the United States government. Why can we have yearly evaluations of our political leaders? If they fail to be as productive within said year, then we simply fire them, and get someone else in. Of course this will probably take a lot of time and effort at first to cycle through all of the idiots, cheaters, and liars (Obama being the top of that particular list), but eventually we will find people that can EFFECTIVELY function within their position. It pisses me off the more that I think about it that our supposed leaders don't have to worry about foreclosures, pay cuts, lost benefits, or even losing their jobs, but they are the ones that orchestrated this situation the our whole world is dealing with now.

Let's as people apply social darwinism as it relates to a person's worth to our politicians. I believe we would fix frivolousness almost instantly with our country's spending.

02-24-2010, 10:08 AM	#94
OBEEWON Post Whore! Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Hightened State of Emergency Posts: 6,051 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	I cannot agree that we are animals. That is just plain incorrect. I do not like/agree with those who "take advantage of the government" and survive on freebee's. But the funny thing is even those free loaders provide stimulus to the country. Thier existence is not 100% parasitic. If they ceased to exist there would be massive reprocussions. I would argue big wigs in financial institutions take more advantage of the government and are responsible for upsetting the symbiotic balance of society more so than welfare recipients. Welfare has never caused a country to decline. There are just too many things not being factored in, and too many assumptions being made. If everyone started from the same blocks then these arguements would be valid. No one is in the position to determine who lives and dies. Just because one doesn't believe in something does not mean it does not exist. Morality is real. Humanity is real. There are boundries to living. If you don't want something done to you, don't do it to someone else. If we could do this there would be no issues. The more government present the more societal problems permiate communities. Less government = more personal responsibility. Government encourages apathy and blame. Government tells you it's not your fault you are an idiot, so we will fix it for you. Example: No child left behind sounds good, but it in fact makes for less qualified graduates. __________________ Last edited by OBEEWON; 02-24-2010 at 10:29 AM..

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

02-23-2010, 04:50 PM	#91
ronmcdon Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: beverly hills Age: 86 Posts: 4,254 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	For those who contribute less, there's some degree of responsibility that also falls on our government. The government gives questionable incentives. If people can take advantage of certain things, they simply will. I.e., you make it convenient for ppl to leech, they probably will consider it. If you want to encourage ppl to be a bit more self-sufficient (within modern day society), simply reward productivity, and not complacency. you don't have to go to rash measures like genocide. you don't even have to punish ppl. there's also a lot to be said about the dismal efficiency & effectiveness of our public system, but that's another can of worms.

03-05-2010, 10:15 AM	#103
sirfallsalot243 BANNED Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Doylestown, PA Age: 33 Posts: 468 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	If youre gonna keep a lifer alive and incarcerated until he dies, he should have to generate the money that it costs to keep him alive. Every inmate should be BRINGING IN money for the system, not taking away from it. I mean, shit, youre in jail. Youve got nothing but time. Might as well put these guys to work. We have work programs in place now in jails, but its all optional. Put these fuckers to work for 8 hrs a day. Thats the only solution I can think of to the argument above me, about killing the wrong person. Its a shame that it takes so long to finally kill a REAL murderer, but youre right.. it'd be fucked up if an innocent person got the axe. I still think life sentences should be done away with though. When someone is facing the death penalty and its pretty obvious theyre guilty, its almost always an option to "plead guilty" to get life in prison instead. Fuck that. Try them, convict them, and sentence them to what they deserve. You take a life? We'll take yours. Eye for an eye.

03-05-2010, 12:41 PM	#105
ronmcdon Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: beverly hills Age: 86 Posts: 4,254 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	slave labor could be a cost-effective alternative to out-sourcing to another country. I know I'd rather have an American felon for tech support, than "Bob" from India. I executed properly, our prisons would be a gold-mine of cheap labor. I know it's been done before, but consider the possibilities if were orchestrated by a cost-effect private co.! Imagine something like GM building a plant inside Folsom prison, lol

03-05-2010, 01:36 PM	#106
fckillerbee Post Whore! Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern California Age: 36 Posts: 4,266 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	I haven't been in this thread...but imagine a inmate threatening a customer of tech support cause they just don't get it....mmmm...might be bad...however...constructiong jobs would be wonderful!!!!

03-06-2010, 07:52 AM	#109
prodigyJJ Zilvia Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Mississippi Age: 35 Posts: 236 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	I agree with the above argument involving inmates and the prison system. I LOATHE the term inmate rights. <----That's bullshit. Another argument to point out is our government. I'll be the first to say that since Clinton our nation has been jacked up. Deregulation, a lack of transparency, and no accountability have really helped create this beast of a deficit. I think that politicians are the ones that shold be highest on the chopping block. Let's make it survival of the fittest for all elective jobs in the United States government. Why can we have yearly evaluations of our political leaders? If they fail to be as productive within said year, then we simply fire them, and get someone else in. Of course this will probably take a lot of time and effort at first to cycle through all of the idiots, cheaters, and liars (Obama being the top of that particular list), but eventually we will find people that can EFFECTIVELY function within their position. It pisses me off the more that I think about it that our supposed leaders don't have to worry about foreclosures, pay cuts, lost benefits, or even losing their jobs, but they are the ones that orchestrated this situation the our whole world is dealing with now. Let's as people apply social darwinism as it relates to a person's worth to our politicians. I believe we would fix frivolousness almost instantly with our country's spending.