NemeGuero

yummy.............

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kerosinek

To the guy with the bug up his ass about the patent... Go to Full Race's website, click on the "contact us" button (it may be called something different but you seem smart so you should be able to find it), and send them an email. Zilvia is not the place to bring this to Full Race's attention.

The car is sick. I saw it at HIN in Arizona and about crapped my pants when I realized it was AWD. Props to Full Race.

g6civcx

Done many times many months back. All my correspondence have been ignored.

This is to let the people know what the company is doing, not to bring it to Full Race's attention.

I'm not knocking the company or the product. I want them to succeed. I don't want them to fail because of stupid things. Get it through your head.

TurDz

Yeah, I think g6civcx has made it clear he just wants them to suceed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_pending

...

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FrickU

I bought the magazine last night, and that is a crazy conversion.
I would love to see that on the track.

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1992 240sx

S14DB

Fines would suck:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac..._U_S_C_292.htm

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ixfxi

there were a few things i didnt like about the car, but nothing that cant be changed or fixed....

1) stock S14 cloth seats with racing harnesses? jesus, are R32 seats that hard to find? Maybe time was putting pressure on them. I just think that changing the seats would do a lot for that type of car.

2) Ebrake bias splitter? Weird. A simple control knob splitter sounds like the way to go. Again, I am sure they just ran out of time and needed to get the project presentable.

3) J-spec headlamps in the US? First of all, they are plastic. Second, I dont know why they called them "black housing" I dont recall the J-spec lamps being darker, unless they were disassembled and painted. But either way, get rid of those crap headlamps.. atleast pickup a pair of German E-code lamps.

4) I wasnt really happy with the wheel/tire choice on that car. Its not bad, I just think a nice 3-piece wheel would be better. Not a fan of 18's, but hey.. it works.

5) Brakes. I believe the Z32/R32 brakes are sufficient for our cars under light to medium loads. Under heavy braking (or RB powered car), I would go with a real big brake system (wilwood or better).

Anyway, all of the above is all easily changeable. I like Full Race, I think they are a good company and should do very well in selling buildups like this. From a business perspective, I think its a smart venture and should provide a good service for people wanting a Skyline-esque S14.

From a personal perspective, I've always felt that the 240SX in general should be appreciated and modified for maximum lightness. I've respected cars like Russ's because I think its the epitome of quality enthusiasm from someone who has spent WAY too much time learning the chassis (much like myself).

The R14 is an attempt to make the 240SX battle with the heavyweight GT cars, this means G35, 350Z, Z32, Supra, etc. Fun stuff, just not my taste. I follow the Lotus Elise/Exige mentality.

Best of luck to Full Race, respect on building a very interesting machine.
- Mike / ClearCorners.Com

fliprayzin240sx

Wow...that just made it out of reach of 98% of 240 owners. I just need to win the lottery to do this shiet. I can bring back a RB setup from japan in 4 yrs.

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g6civcx

S14DB hit it exactly on the head. Although $500 per offense doesn't seem like much, they may charge you with each page hit as an offense because each hit represents one customer who was misled.

Also, defending yourself in federal district is horribly expensive. It still costs a buckload even if you "win".

The other important law is United States Code, Title 35, Chapter 10, Section 102, subparagraphs (a) and (b), which states:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac....htm#usc35s102

They would immediately lose their patent rights if they tried to sell before applying.

If I were the official Examiner of Record on their case, if they ever filed one, and I stumbled on that page, I would not hesitate to issue a final rejection and immediately close prosecution on their case.


And while we're at it, I'll respond to this:

United States Code, Title 35, Chapter 11, Section 112, first paragraph states:

That means that their patent claims must be supported by adequate disclosure that enables one of ordinary skill in the art to make and use the invention. This should include "blueprints", if by blueprints you mean technical specs so that anybody with ordinary skill who picks up their patent can go out and build an R14 of their own.

If they do not disclose a blueprints, their application will be immediately rejected, and they cannot add new matter for support that was not originally in the application.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac....htm#usc35s112


The other thing is if they use the patent-pending designation falsely, they're being dishonest and misleading the public, which is us. That's not right, and I refuse to support dishonest companies. All of this is pretty normal stuff for patents and their attorneys should have already dealt with it.



Personally, I am rooting for them to succeed with their car and be able to pull it off and make it street-legal; however, I don't know if they have the budget to get it EPA-exempt. So technically it may pass state and local inspection, but it would still be federally illegal, especially in OBDII S14s.

I think ixfxi brought up very valid points, but I think Full Race was more interested in demonstrating the drivetrain than any of the other issues you brought up, although they are very valid issues and do need to be addressed. I think they know that people know enough to know that those things are easily fixed, like R32 seats, Wilwood brakes, etc.

It would open the door for many interesting options. 1,000-bhp R13, anyone?

Jonnie Fraz

Wow! Pretty interesting stuff. The car looks amazing, and I am shure it has a few bugs to work out. Full Race does some truly amazing work on there products.
One thing I am interested in, is if they want to make this a kit how they will get around the engine switching law for the RB, since it was not offered in any configuration imported to the US. This would require crash testing several cars to meet Federal DOT standards.
Truly I like g6cvics wish Full Race the best, and he is right if this gets done it would be a huge step forward for 240 owners.
Best of luck.

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Stealth-Custom-Fab.com

g6civcx

They can try to get EPA-exempted, but as far as I know they got much stricter thanks to Motorex. You may still get it if you're patience and have money. Same goes with DOT.

BTW, Geoff from Full Race informed me that they do have a pending provisional application, and they're working on the nonprovisional application. He would not tell me the application number though. I guess we shall see after his 39 months

ixfxi

Just curious, why WOULD or SHOULD they give that type of information out? Its nice you are caring and trying to help as you pointed out in this thread.. but dont you think this is something that they can handle on their own?

You cant just trust people off the streets and forums. If someone wanted that type of info from me, i'de tell them to go pound sand.

kognition

They are claiming Patent Pending? Even if they tried, it wouldn't fly. It isn't NOVEL. Cool definitely. I have been thru it with Patent Attorneys myself. I own a
registered trademark as well, and framed on my office wall. You can legally put TM. after anything you like without filing for it now. It has little hold up in court though. My patent search, (yes, you need to do one) was $1,500 just to search for similar inventions. Their best investment would be in just doing a great job on their customers cars, and get the referrals. But when you say Patent Pending, you must at least file the new streamline "Provisional Patent" application. It gives you the legal right to claim Patent Pending for 12 months. At which time, you must file for a full patent or it is null and void.
Remember that a company must pay attorneys to defend their patents in court. Filing the provisional is about $75.00
uspto.gov

kognition

Besides, a provisional never gets logged into the USPTO system for access by the public. It gets filed for future use in litigation or proving who filed first. By asking them that information, you are just making them paranoid probably. I hope they make the right choice. It is expensive to defend a patent. Many companies break apart for that reason. It breaks the bank, and the losing defendants go belly up and nobody to pay your legal costs.

thetopcow

the only thing I dont like about the kit is the price. i would love to roll up on someone unsuspectingly and smoke them...but for 13400 or 14600...not a chance i will ever have that much cash. somebody else read their FAQ on projectr14.com, but i dont think that even includes the engine. Just installation and some of full races custom parts.

SochBAT

You gotta remember, its not just plug-and-play. For the most part, everything seems custom. And, as we all know, custom work = customized amount of money. More power to the FullRace guys.

AWD Gokart, someone make one.

usdm180sx

Yay for choosing a zenki z14 instead of a kouki

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g6civcx

You are absolutely correct. The TM designation may be used without discrimination. It has little value in court, as said above. I am not a trademark attorney so thank you for the schooling.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac...c/register.htm

I will now amend my post to say:

g6civcx

Again, I'm asking in my capacity as a consumer. They don't have to disclose the content of the application if it's never published. They should acknowledge whether or not they have a pending application. If they refuse to, it's not nice to tell your customer something, and then not backing it up, as explained above.

It's like I'm trying to sell you something, and I say, "this has never been done before, and no one can sell it but me". You then ask, "can you at least give me some proof?". To which, I reply, "go pound sand".

Think about it. That's not very courteous to your customer. Again, all I wanted was for them to acknowledge or remove the designation. It's my legal right as a consumer.


People who don't understand the patent system want to keep everything secretive. The whole purpose of a patent is to get legal protection for public disclosure. It would be highly favorable for them to disclose everything after their filing date. This has 2 benefits:

1) Since everybody knows about it, anybody who wants to challenge may do so. This makes the patent stronger if it issues.

2) Since everybody knows about it, they won't try to sell it because they know you'll sue them.


The purpose of the whole system is to issue strong patents. You can keep everything a secret, and get a weak patent that will not hold up in court. That's worse than not having a patent at all because you spent a lot of money and you are now exposed to law suit because you hold a patent.

The whole purpose of getting a patent is to use it to sue people. If you can't sue with it, it's not worth the money to get one.

Again, if you don't want to disclose your invention, don't file a patent. Keep it a trade secret and risk the invention getting stolen. Filing a patent means you have to tell the public in exchange for legal protection. If you don't tell the public everything (how to build it, use it, the best mode to build and use, etc), your patent may be invalidated.

How could you say if it's novel or not without even seeing the claims because the nonprovisional doesn't exist yet? Do you have insider information?

The other benefit is just file the provisional ASAP and abandon it after 12 months. At least you will have an official document for use as a defense in case somebody sues you. You can't use it to sue anybody else, but at least you can use it to defend yourself.

CylonFrakker

PLEASE TAKE THIS TO PM THIS IS TO DISCUSS THE CAR NOT THE LEGALITIES BEHIND ITS PATENT. CONSIDER IT A FUCKING CONCEPT. PLEASE SHUT THE FUCK WITH THIS LEGAL DRIVEL! I WANNA READ ABOUT THE CAR NOT FULL RACE'S INCONSISTENCIES. THANKS AND HAVING A FUCKING GREAT DAY.

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UGR.....SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES....

Boney

Nice article in Modified guys.

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91 Coupe

kognition

Hey if they have developed new technology, go for filing. If you are filing on a concept of swapping this cars drive system into that car over there, it doesn't seem novel because it doesn't sound like a true invention. BTW, "Novel" is a word used in patent language by the USPTO. It isn't just a word i threw out there. You are asking the USPTO to patent your idea of the swapping around of allready patented car parts made by Nissan.
There are just too many questions that will arise. From a business POV, and any industry guy will say the same thing... build the concept on referral based business. If they make unique parts that are required for this swap, that is their key to success. And we all know too well, fabrication and engine swaps are referral driven anyway. I just think that their time and money would be better spent stocking up on these conversions. Because guys are allready going crazy wanting them. He who has the most conversion parts is in control
of the market, not the owner of a patent. It takes 2 to 3 years for a patent to be approved. And about 15 months expedited for a higher fee. Meanwhile, you can't stop anyone from doing it. And when your patent goes into effect (If it does), Joe Dirt will just fold up shop when you serve him his infringement papers. Thats the real world on patents.
A friend of mine owned a chain of 13 health stores, with a patent on a suppliment. Another company copied it, and was infringing, but the in house legal dept. said to defend the patent would be 500 grand. It was not worth the money to defend their patent. So they did nothing. It was a logical decision they had to make, because that particular product was not pulling in the profit to justify defending the patent. Sorry write such a long bit about this. But i hope i shed some light for those who have considered doing the same thing.
As for you who are inquiring so much to Full Race's filing, why are you so insistent on them explaining themselves to you? Seriously. I hope they make a killing.

FullRaceGeoff

Hi guys, thanks for the thread. I dont get on here too often

I am the owner/founder of full-race and the R14 is my personal car. I oversaw the project from concept to finish and i had 4 mechanical engineers (one is a master's student) working on it, along with 1 full time mechanic and 2 fabricators with me for 4-8 months. We are still working on it daily. We have accepted no orders. I have been asked by many who wish to place orders and i was even offered an obscene amount of money for my personal car (which i turned down)

g6civcx -- sorry about not getting to your email the instant it was sent. We were EXTREMELY busy getting ready for SEMA (i had to build another R14 cutaway chassis just for the show) and could not respond to most of the emails I received. I was not blowing you off, i was not giving you inconsistent answers, i was simply extremely busy.

As far as the patent filing goes, we have a very well known firm who we are working on this with. They are very expensive, and very good. The provisional application has been filed, the non provisional wil be filed in 2007. We would not risk losing our business, deceiving our customers, or hurting the whole community with the words "patent pending" if we were not serious about this.

We are educated, formally trained mechanical engineers. We really do know what we are doing.

thanks for the discussion. if anyone has any *TECHNICAL* questions i would be happy to answer. I will not discuss patent stuff, as that is what i pay our friends for.

g6civcx

Geoff, I got your email. Thanks for the reply. What firm are you working with? Your project looks very interesting and I'm excited to see your application when/if it publishes. Best of luck to you.


kognition, with all due respect, I have no idea what they're claiming. It is the claims that define their legal ownership. Just because you know what the R14 looks like, that doesn't mean they will claim the whole thing or nothing at all. Writing claims is an art in and of itself. No offense, but lawyers who went to law school and practised for years still don't get it quite right.

That is why I am very excited to see what the application looks like. If you would like to submit art, file an interference, etc., you're always strongly encouraged to do so. It is ultimately up to the Examiner of Record to decide if it's novel, nonobvious, and statutory. If you have references you would like to submit, you're always welcome to do so through the proper channel.


The car itself is very interesting. I hope it gets EPA-exempted and parts be easy to get.

aznpoopy

g6 knows his shit. i'm actually taking patent law in law school right now. you can trust me, because everyone knows lawyers and law students are trustworthy.

the only thing i would add is we have no idea what they are actually claiming under the 'I Claim' section. i would guess its the mods and custom bits and pieces that actually make this swap work in a s14 chassis. with that (admittedly) fuzzy concept in my head, it seems like it would have a high chance of flunking the non-obvious requirement for patentability.

FullRaceGeoff

STATUS had promised us seats in time for the photos. The day of the shoot no seats. It was either S14 seats or mismatched sparcos, im sure you would have complained either way j/k

This is actually the same setup used in many other GTRs. In fact veilside sells a kit similar to this, mine just happened to be integrated into the center console so you cant see it.

Regardless, we do have the electronic system, testing will begin very shortly.


it was actually an inside joke. Im not going to go into details, but they are the stock US 95 headlights (painted black on the inside) with 232k miles on them. Another thing to piss you off is that one bulb is a super white, the other is a stock bulb lol

Ill get the german lights once i finish upgrading my oiling system, get some penske's on all 4 corners, and eat something besides ramen noodles.

rims = mismatched volks that were free. I had the centers powdercoated flat black becuase they were 3 different colors

tires = free. there are now advan a048Rs on 10.5s 285x35x18

r32 brakes = on my clip. just becuase i own full-race doesnt mean i dont have a budget. There are some r34 brakes on the floor of my office tho


i feel the s2000/elise/exige is the car to build for maximum lightness...

the r14 is absolutely a heavyweight, just in sheeps clothing.

fliprayzin240sx

How much power did you guys ended up making with the current setup. Also, when you dyno it, do you guys dyno it AWD or RWD? Just curious, i figured when it runs RWD, it should put down more power to the wheels than it would AWD since there will be less drivetrain loss.

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S14DB

When are we going to see the R14 on Pinks?

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g6civcx

BTW, welcome to Zilvia, Geoff.

Slidin240Wayz

That will be the day.

G6- if it all goes through, would this be like the special edition z31 convertibles?

Carlos

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