Anti Lag Systems (rally/drift) - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

tunermt · 07-16-2012, 01:23 AM

It is a well known fact a phat power band makes for great sliding. With so many cars going the V8 route to get the desired torque curve what options do the smaller 4 and 6 cylinder guys have?

Recently i noticed the Bee*R gaining some popularity with the drift community which is a step in the right direction, however a few key things are missing.

Check out the details for the more popular secondary air injection systems found on many WRC cars: Brewed Motorsports: Turbo Anti Lag system aka ALS

2jz powered S13 running a combination of SAI and TBP Antilag

Video of the Brewed Rally style ALS on a 4g63 VR4 running AEM ems.

And of course an engine bay shot of a mitsubishi (check out the link above for the diagram of all the ALS parts)

I know there are a few people out there using a "rally style" anti lag in their drift builds

Please feel free to post up any questions, thoughts and idea's on ALS options for drift use, little Zilvia brain storm session if you will.

InsTanCeZ · 07-16-2012, 01:31 AM

I know Ken Gushi uses one in his FR-S, but he also uses a Cosworth tuned EJ25 Impreza rally engine. It seems like a great idea, but it is very hard on the turbo and it will need to be replaced or rebuilt often, which can get pretty expensive. If I ever did this I would most definitely not use a ball-bearing turbo, a journal bearing turbo would be better since you could rebuild it. Gushi is using the Greddy TD06SH-25G turbo, which is a journal bearing turbo.

lude4life13 · 07-16-2012, 02:03 AM

This reminds me of the Evo in Initial D lol. I would love to drive a car with an ALS and experience how it reacts in a racing environment.

tunermt · 07-16-2012, 02:20 AM

yes antilag can be very hard on things but if used sparingly and tuned for longevity even turbos can last a decent amount of time. I agree journal bearing is not a bad option as the center section doesn't have the plastic bearing cage the GT series uses for the BB.
(new EFR center section BB does use a metal "bearing cage" that help up great while we used one on the s13) Mitsubishi based turbos also seem to handle ALS pretty well from my experience with the 8/9 turbos.

Walperstyle · 07-16-2012, 02:37 AM

One day after doing a lot of turbo math
(update-Turbo Math, and what helped me - YouTube)

...I invented a ZERO LAG setup.

I came up with a bunch of detailed drawings on how one could use a 2nd Turbine (jet engine) to spool a turbo. The car would have two separate exhaust systems (perhaps 3) pending on what was planned. I spent many hours designing the system, only to find out Someone already built it.....

Jealous

The car
Development.

The video of the car
Fast Very Fast! - YouTube

Matej · 07-16-2012, 02:52 AM

The best thing about 'anti-lag' is making the car sound like a war movie.

tunermt · 07-16-2012, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walperstyle

One day after doing a lot of turbo math
(update-Turbo Math, and what helped me - YouTube)

...I invented a ZERO LAG setup.

I came up with a bunch of detailed drawings on how one could use a 2nd Turbine (jet engine) to spool a turbo. The car would have two separate exhaust systems (perhaps 3) pending on what was planned. I spent many hours designing the system, only to find out Someone already built it.....

Jealous

The car
Development.

The video of the car
Fast Very Fast! - YouTube

That build is absolutely amazing

PoorMans180SX · 07-16-2012, 05:14 AM

This will be of interest to you.

Beyond the Dyno: Rocket Anti-lag Teaser

Tle1993 · 07-16-2012, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matej

The best thing about 'anti-lag' is making the car sound like a war movie.

this is badass! lol its just gun shots

NoPistons! · 07-16-2012, 08:36 AM

And that car is fast as fuck. =D

Make explosions between exhaust valve and turbine and you has compression that spools turbo off throttle. Electronic control is what i was looking to do but can't even find time to assemble an MSnS let alone finish my car. Scraped the project in favor of seat time. Good luck to all ye who attempt the TRUE ALS system.

PoorMans180SX · 07-16-2012, 02:10 PM

Watch the link I posted. He's about to make bang-bang systems obsolete. It's less hard on your turbo too.

Tle1993 · 07-16-2012, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Watch the link I posted. He's about to make bang-bang systems obsolete. It's less hard on your turbo too.

yeah i watched that video and that is an amazing system.

*!Zar!* · 07-16-2012, 02:30 PM

Anti lag for me is 90% noise and 10% functionality.

tunermt · 07-16-2012, 07:31 PM

yes the rocket is a GREAT system and from my understanding it is just another secondary air injection system. The big difference is the rocket uses a "tuned" combustion chamber rather than just simply dumping the air into the exhaust runners pre turbo it dumps it into a nice (rocket) shaped chamber which strangely enough has some surprising similarities to the combustion chamber of some turbine engines

Kingbaby · 07-16-2012, 07:39 PM

worth the watch

bik · 07-16-2012, 07:40 PM

I wanna use a antilag system here in chihuahua mexico, and see everybody around dive in to the ground when the poping start... and then get myself in a big trouble cause i bet police or cartels dont find it funny =/

hahaha sorry my bad english ^_^

fckillerbee · 07-17-2012, 03:21 PM

i've seen a dude on the freeway with anti lag on his STi. it was soooo fail it wasn't funny. Watching him merge, while braking...all you hear is pop pop pop pop....as the guy hit traffic...car still popping. I don't know how that didn't get annoying real quick.

*TheRealSy90* · 07-17-2012, 05:23 PM

I got to experience the ALS system RRE/Road Race Engineering has on their rally Evo V and it was amazing. Listening to it free rev and then about a half second then BAM! So awesome.

tunermt · 07-17-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

I wanna use a antilag system here in chihuahua mexico, and see everybody around dive in to the ground when the poping start... and then get myself in a big trouble cause i bet police or cartels dont find it funny =/

hahaha sorry my bad english ^_^

haha i like your style

Quote:

i've seen a dude on the freeway with anti lag on his STi. it was soooo fail it wasn't funny. Watching him merge, while braking...all you hear is pop pop pop pop....as the guy hit traffic...car still popping. I don't know how that didn't get annoying real quick.

oh man anti lag + traffic = FAIL

Toi · 07-17-2012, 08:05 PM

WRC cars use ball bearing turbos with anti lag, you can use that journal bearing if ya want but that turbo will be toast in no time.

Anti Lag systems destroy exhaust manifolds and turbos, its a great system but its hard on the wallet!

tunermt · 07-18-2012, 08:26 PM

Yes most WRC cars use some VERY special Garrett turbos, one of the many modified features on these turbos is the cage holding the ball bearings is metal VS plastic (as found in the standard GT series).

PoorMans180SX · 07-19-2012, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toi

WRC cars use ball bearing turbos with anti lag, you can use that journal bearing if ya want but that turbo will be toast in no time.

Anti Lag systems destroy exhaust manifolds and turbos, its a great system but its hard on the wallet!

I know of several cars that use the typical timing retard anti-lag on hundreds of drag launches a year, and they all use journal bearing turbos.

It all depends on what type and how much anti-lag you're using. The WRC "rocket" style shouldn't be nearly so hard on your turbo.

tunermt · 07-20-2012, 03:10 AM

exactly

when used sparingly and set up correctly it doesn't have to destroy anything. I've used a very mild throttle kick and timing retard for some AL while sliding at a couple events in my S13. It works great but to be honest with the tiny T25 on the ka its not even needed. I'm looking forward to slightly more aggressive secondary air injection system on my current sr project.

tunermt · 07-25-2012, 08:16 AM

roboticnissan · 07-25-2012, 08:50 AM

You guys are referring to something more than just installing a beeR limiter right?

tunermt · 07-25-2012, 08:54 PM

yes very much so

here you go my friend, get your learn on!

Turbo Antil lag systems explained

tunermt · 07-30-2012, 02:21 AM

an evo getting in on the action

dustky43 · 09-11-2012, 09:24 AM

It's VERY difficult to get any useful information on anti-lag setups. Ive had many shops/tuners keep telling me that I dont need it, that I will burn up my exhaust valves, I will kill turbos etc. (I dont really care)

Took me a while to find a shop that was interested/willing to help me out.

Here's a video of my car from last year
Antilag Test- Nissan 240sx Vipec ECU tuned by Dent Sport Garage - YouTube

Car makes about 1 bar of boost at idle. Running a Group N style antilag, no additional parts are required other than for the ecu that supports it. The rotational idle is absolutely awesome to actually cool the car down in between runs as well. The downside is that with a Group N style anti-lag the motor never pulls vacuum so you will have no power brakes.

ghoti · 09-12-2012, 02:41 PM

Short Rally history cars

tunermt · 09-13-2012, 04:13 AM

Good to hear you found a shop willing to make it happen

Are you using the nissan Idle valve for this set up or did you switch out to say one of the Bosch units that are commonly used?

Great work my friend!

07-16-2012, 01:23 AM	#1
tunermt Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: MT, AZ, Seoul, Bangkok Posts: 335 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Anti Lag Systems (rally/drift) It is a well known fact a phat power band makes for great sliding. With so many cars going the V8 route to get the desired torque curve what options do the smaller 4 and 6 cylinder guys have? Recently i noticed the BeeR gaining some popularity with the drift community which is a step in the right direction, however a few key things are missing. Check out the details for the more popular secondary air injection systems found on many WRC cars: Brewed Motorsports: Turbo Anti Lag system aka ALS 2jz powered S13 running a combination of SAI and TBP Antilag Video of the Brewed Rally style ALS on a 4g63 VR4 running AEM ems. And of course an engine bay shot of a mitsubishi (check out the link above for the diagram of all the ALS parts) I know there are a few people out there using a "rally style" anti lag in their drift builds Please feel free to post up any questions, thoughts and idea's on ALS options for drift use, little Zilvia brain storm session if you will. __________________ Brewed Motors IG @Brewedmotors Last edited by tunermt; 06-26-2016 at 11:10 AM..*

07-16-2012, 02:20 AM	#4
tunermt Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: MT, AZ, Seoul, Bangkok Posts: 335 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	yes antilag can be very hard on things but if used sparingly and tuned for longevity even turbos can last a decent amount of time. I agree journal bearing is not a bad option as the center section doesn't have the plastic bearing cage the GT series uses for the BB. (new EFR center section BB does use a metal "bearing cage" that help up great while we used one on the s13) Mitsubishi based turbos also seem to handle ALS pretty well from my experience with the 8/9 turbos. __________________ Brewed Motors IG @Brewedmotors

07-16-2012, 02:37 AM	#5
Walperstyle Nissanaholic! Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Alberta, Red Derp Age: 40 Posts: 1,729 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	One day after doing a lot of turbo math (update-Turbo Math, and what helped me - YouTube) ...I invented a ZERO LAG setup. I came up with a bunch of detailed drawings on how one could use a 2nd Turbine (jet engine) to spool a turbo. The car would have two separate exhaust systems (perhaps 3) pending on what was planned. I spent many hours designing the system, only to find out Someone already built it..... Jealous The car Development. The video of the car Fast Very Fast! - YouTube __________________ KA-T ORG-Function over Flush

07-16-2012, 05:14 AM	#8
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	This will be of interest to you. Beyond the Dyno: Rocket Anti-lag Teaser __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

07-16-2012, 08:36 AM	#10
NoPistons! Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Carolina Posts: 548 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	And that car is fast as fuck. =D Make explosions between exhaust valve and turbine and you has compression that spools turbo off throttle. Electronic control is what i was looking to do but can't even find time to assemble an MSnS let alone finish my car. Scraped the project in favor of seat time. Good luck to all ye who attempt the TRUE ALS system. __________________ Just another broke ass drifter

07-16-2012, 01:31 AM	#2
InsTanCeZ Zilvia Addict Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Queen City Age: 28 Posts: 722 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I know Ken Gushi uses one in his FR-S, but he also uses a Cosworth tuned EJ25 Impreza rally engine. It seems like a great idea, but it is very hard on the turbo and it will need to be replaced or rebuilt often, which can get pretty expensive. If I ever did this I would most definitely not use a ball-bearing turbo, a journal bearing turbo would be better since you could rebuild it. Gushi is using the Greddy TD06SH-25G turbo, which is a journal bearing turbo.

07-16-2012, 02:03 AM	#3
lude4life13 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Planet Namek Age: 31 Posts: 408 Trader Rating: (8) Feedback Score: 8 reviews	This reminds me of the Evo in Initial D lol. I would love to drive a car with an ALS and experience how it reacts in a racing environment.

07-16-2012, 02:52 AM	#6
Matej Post Whore! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: N/A Posts: 9,423 Trader Rating: (39) Feedback Score: 39 reviews	The best thing about 'anti-lag' is making the car sound like a war movie.

07-16-2012, 02:10 PM	#11
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Watch the link I posted. He's about to make bang-bang systems obsolete. It's less hard on your turbo too. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

07-16-2012, 02:30 PM	#13
!Zar! Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Korea Posts: 14,576 Trader Rating: (27) Feedback Score: 27 reviews	Anti lag for me is 90% noise and 10% functionality. __________________

07-16-2012, 07:31 PM	#14
tunermt Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: MT, AZ, Seoul, Bangkok Posts: 335 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	yes the rocket is a GREAT system and from my understanding it is just another secondary air injection system. The big difference is the rocket uses a "tuned" combustion chamber rather than just simply dumping the air into the exhaust runners pre turbo it dumps it into a nice (rocket) shaped chamber which strangely enough has some surprising similarities to the combustion chamber of some turbine engines __________________ Brewed Motors IG @Brewedmotors

07-16-2012, 07:40 PM	#16
bik Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Mexico Age: 46 Posts: 340 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I wanna use a antilag system here in chihuahua mexico, and see everybody around dive in to the ground when the poping start... and then get myself in a big trouble cause i bet police or cartels dont find it funny =/ hahaha sorry my bad english ^_^ __________________

07-17-2012, 03:21 PM	#17
fckillerbee Post Whore! Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern California Age: 36 Posts: 4,266 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	i've seen a dude on the freeway with anti lag on his STi. it was soooo fail it wasn't funny. Watching him merge, while braking...all you hear is pop pop pop pop....as the guy hit traffic...car still popping. I don't know how that didn't get annoying real quick.

07-17-2012, 08:05 PM	#20
Toi Zilvia Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Japan Age: 44 Posts: 224 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	WRC cars use ball bearing turbos with anti lag, you can use that journal bearing if ya want but that turbo will be toast in no time. Anti Lag systems destroy exhaust manifolds and turbos, its a great system but its hard on the wallet!

07-18-2012, 08:26 PM	#21
tunermt Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: MT, AZ, Seoul, Bangkok Posts: 335 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Yes most WRC cars use some VERY special Garrett turbos, one of the many modified features on these turbos is the cage holding the ball bearings is metal VS plastic (as found in the standard GT series). __________________ Brewed Motors IG @Brewedmotors

07-20-2012, 03:10 AM	#23
tunermt Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: MT, AZ, Seoul, Bangkok Posts: 335 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	exactly when used sparingly and set up correctly it doesn't have to destroy anything. I've used a very mild throttle kick and timing retard for some AL while sliding at a couple events in my S13. It works great but to be honest with the tiny T25 on the ka its not even needed. I'm looking forward to slightly more aggressive secondary air injection system on my current sr project. __________________ Brewed Motors IG @Brewedmotors

07-25-2012, 08:16 AM	#24
tunermt Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: MT, AZ, Seoul, Bangkok Posts: 335 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	__________________ Brewed Motors IG @Brewedmotors

07-25-2012, 08:50 AM	#25
roboticnissan Nissanaholic! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: SOCAL/NORCAL Age: 32 Posts: 1,867 Trader Rating: (12) Feedback Score: 12 reviews	You guys are referring to something more than just installing a beeR limiter right? __________________

07-25-2012, 08:54 PM	#26
tunermt Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: MT, AZ, Seoul, Bangkok Posts: 335 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	yes very much so here you go my friend, get your learn on! Turbo Antil lag systems explained __________________ Brewed Motors IG @Brewedmotors

07-30-2012, 02:21 AM	#27
tunermt Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: MT, AZ, Seoul, Bangkok Posts: 335 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	an evo getting in on the action __________________ Brewed Motors IG @Brewedmotors

09-11-2012, 09:24 AM	#28
dustky43 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: NJ Age: 40 Posts: 32 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	It's VERY difficult to get any useful information on anti-lag setups. Ive had many shops/tuners keep telling me that I dont need it, that I will burn up my exhaust valves, I will kill turbos etc. (I dont really care) Took me a while to find a shop that was interested/willing to help me out. Here's a video of my car from last year Antilag Test- Nissan 240sx Vipec ECU tuned by Dent Sport Garage - YouTube Car makes about 1 bar of boost at idle. Running a Group N style antilag, no additional parts are required other than for the ecu that supports it. The rotational idle is absolutely awesome to actually cool the car down in between runs as well. The downside is that with a Group N style anti-lag the motor never pulls vacuum so you will have no power brakes.

09-13-2012, 04:13 AM	#30
tunermt Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: MT, AZ, Seoul, Bangkok Posts: 335 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Good to hear you found a shop willing to make it happen Are you using the nissan Idle valve for this set up or did you switch out to say one of the Bosch units that are commonly used? Great work my friend! __________________ Brewed Motors IG @Brewedmotors

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