bb4_96

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...thy-books.html

To clarify: This article was chosen soley cite the trend of redistribution of wealth and said fallout. *In no way do i claim any of Robert Reich's thoughts unless expressly stated as such. **The above hyperlink is not intended for propaganda purposes. ***Please use proper judgement when reading above article as prolonged exposure may induce love for sicles and stars.

In all seriousness just take out the pieces of the article you need to follow my thoughts.

I've been following his work for a while under the clinton administration and under Obama's. I've read his book "aftershock" and it shed alot of light on what seems to be plagueing the nation. Some of his points I agree on, however some points I do not. What he seems to be big on is the distribution of wealth. The spread between the wealthy and middle class has been growing larger and larger in terms wage gap instead of populous. In his article he states that something like 23% of US income going to the top 1% of income earners. I'm all in favor of capitalism and earning all you can. However all these wealthy individuals have to share this nation with the newly impoverished middle class. Reich foresees revolt against the wealthy. I would have to agree. Whether americans grow backbones and stand up for themselves or whether they push the fed into reform I think it's eventually going to turn. Resulting in a device to robinhood the economy.

I think he's on point(regarding cited theory). Put the money back into the class who knows how to spend it?

chato de shamrock

I dont know about taxing the poor, middle or wealthy. Tax this. Tax that. Tax him. Tax her. I just dont see it as a solution. How about stopping outsourcing? How about incentives to those companies or small mom & pop businesses that have stuck around with us through this, offering us work. How about the government spending some money to promote (perhaps through TV or radio) the support of US made goods and products. How about strict restrictions and hefty $$$ penalties on those companies like Microsoft and DirectTV who close down buildings here, bail on us for Mexico or China and to add insult to injury lie to us telling us they are doing this to offer us cheaper, affordable services. Theres so much taxing going around now that we've become as rediculous as we are now known for suing over everything. Why dont we focus on salvaging jobs and rewarding those businesses that haven't bailed on us as a way to influence companies to stay here with our jobs rather then figuing out how we can squeeze the last cent we have with new taxes. This thing about wealth distribution reminds me of that saying about "teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Instead of taking more from those who have, why not give me a job so I can take care of myself.

WanganRunner

That's called Protectionism. Go look that up and tell me how well you think it works. I'll wait, I've got all day.

President Obama Signs Small Business Jobs Act - Learn What's In It | The White House

You have a post railing against taxation but then you have a spending proposal? Where do you think spending comes from?

You either trust the free markets or you don't, and if you don't you may as well nationalize everyone's shit and set up breadlines.

The reason why US "goods and products" are, at times, not competitive is either because they are inferior or because they are more expensive. Consumers are, on average, rational creatures and they are unlikely to buy a more expensive or inferior product simply because a taxpayer-funded ad tells them to.

The only way to get people to artificially buy domestic products when they would otherwise buy foreign is to slap huge taxes and tariffs on the foreign products so that they are no longer price competitive. Thus, more taxes.

You're not for or against anything in particular, you're just miffed people aren't more altruistic when it comes to their purchasing choices. That isn't a policy platform.





EDIT:

This transformation to a service economy will end up being multi-generational, and it is unfortunately true that if certain workers cannot be re-trained, their only option is to either relocate to nations where their skills are still in use or they can be, er, fucked. I get no Darwinian pleasure in stating this truth, but truth it is. While it is unlikely that a factory worker is going to be someone's CFO next week, going from a factory to a call center (i.e. goods blue collar to service blue collar) isn't much of a leap, and it happens all the time.

Banking and insurance actually *does* create value, as the stability of a financial system will go a long way towards ensuring that the entities that operate within it will prosper more evenly and more free of tumult that they would if said system was unstable (this is one of many, many examples). The value added by services is less tangible and harder to understand than the value added by someone building a car or a refrigerator, but there is value nonetheless.

More than 60% of our GDP is currently made up of services.

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cc4usmc

They sure know how to spend it alright...on things they cannot afford, like big houses and expensive cars, flat screen tv's and big vacations.



This isn't Robin Hood. We don't take from the rich and give to the poor. Hell, people on welfare should be lucky they even have it, since it was never meant to exist. What's wrong with the middle class is they have become content with what they make. Do you know why the top 1% are the top 1%? They never stop wanting more money. Can you say the same for your neighbors, or your family, or yourself? Are you constantly doing whatever you can, however many things you can to bring in more income? Probably not, because you've become content with what you have. If you're not content but you're sitting on your fat ass, that's nobody's fault but your own. I guarantee that 90% of the people in this country made up their minds that they would be comfortable making X amount of money and that's all. How is that the rich peoples fault?

Obama doesn't care about the seperation, because he just gave a $6 BILLION project to a German company to build a solar power array in some fucking CA desert.

Obama administration approves largest-ever solar project $6 Billion – all on borrowed money to German company | Red White Blue News
http://www.blm.gov/ca/st/en/fo/palms...r_Project.html

Whats funny about that last link is it says the German company plans to construct, OWN, and operate.


If you feed a man a fish, he'll be full for a day. If you teach a man to fish, he'll be full for life. You don't go around taking from people who've made a lot and give to people who don't try to help themselves.

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ronmcdon

I'm not so sure 'the rich' means anything,
but do distrust a lot of the powerful corporations with lobbying efforts.
It's almost as if our nation acts in behalf of corporate interests more than our citizens in general.

so much for creating new jobs, unemployment rates remain dismally poor.
Meanwhile all the huge corporations like BP, GM, AIG, etc.
What happened to all those gov't jobs promised to improve our infrastructure?

It's hard not consider Obama as just another corporate croney, and one of the worst ones.
Almost 3 years in office is fair enough to judge imo.

bb4_96

What is Obama supposed to do? Overturn the Senate and house? Break up NAFTA? Pay wages out of his own pocket? There is no money to give. He tried to kickstart the economy but it didn't work because it wasn't sustainable and it wasn't meant to be. The people needed to move this economy are trying to share an ever dwindling part of the US's income and it's long since started to show.

ronmcdon

What is he supposed to do?
How about actually living up to his claims of providing jobs for Americans?
Where are all those infrastructure/alt energy jobs he said?

Right, there is no money to give.
Yet there were plenty when it came to bailouts.
There's also plenty enough $$$ to send hundreds and thousands of troops in Afghanistan.

About congress, there pretty much is no 'checks and balances' right now.
If anything, it goes to prove that Obama is no less corrupt than Bush and his friends at Halliburton.

bb4_96

Great. Obama is at fault for many things. Debt etc. That doesn't fix anything. Believing the next guy is going to come in and fix everything isn't going to either.

As I have been saying all along it is up to the american people to remedy the problems we are facing. It isn't going to take alot of policy change if american's would step up. Personal accountablility.

bb4_96

^ you realize just about every engineer/manufacturing/development job is middle class right? were they too fat and lazy to become doctors and lawyers and push into that 100k+ range? Ah i see what your saying. The lazy middle class should start becoming movie stars and pro athletes.

The middle class performs jobs at wages that are flatlining because there is no money to propell that segment. The poor are another segment and fall into another category. I gree the poor ought to be thankful for wlefare but I'm not very concerned with the moochers well being. I'm worried about the skilled labor force of the middle class, college educated or career skilled.

The middle class did spend rampantly and its no ones fault but their own. But the wealthy came up with swell new ways to use derivatives and that is no ones fault but their own. I didn't open this to point fingers. The writer of the article foresees uprising against the wealthy which I'm not a fan of. But how else do you re-redistribute the wealth? It's not about work. There is a demand for work, there always will be, however there is no sustainable capital to fund any substantial work.

drift freaq

Wow just wow, first off before you go blaming the economic malaise on the rich. You should understand a few things.

1. Cheap easy credit is something the Democratic congress during Clinton's years in office pushed for as a means to affordable housing. They approved it and he signed off on it.

This in turn led to an easy credit frenzy. a frenzy where people that should not have been purchasing houses, since they could not afford them in the first place ,did so anyways.

Where people bought stuff on credit because they could, not because they had the savings to back it up.

Where people took jumbo loans out. In order to buy houses that cost above, what they could afford because they could get the loan.

Where people took out second and sometimes third mortgages, to finance new cars or vacations, treating their homes like a bank.

Now, because of the extreme economic upswing during the late 90',s all of this was easy to do with easy credit and rampant speculation of rising Real Estate prices.

Given this, yes their was some corruption in the banking industry and loan industry , credit default swaps,bad mortgage backed securities and whatnot.

Though to lay blame, to one party and say the rich are at fault? That is the trumpet cry of the poor who have nothing and has gone on throughout history.

It also is the cry of the Communist. The rich have to much take it away from them. Give it to us. Even out the wealth. Guess what? That has never worked as of yet. The minute that kind of thing starts to happen the thugs step in and setup a totalitarian system. At which point the poor get exploited worse than they could have ever imagined.

The poor that could not afford housing, did indeed sign the doted line on stated income mortgage's . Which they knew they could not afford. Why you ask? Because they like everyone else got this crazy idea that home prices were going to keep on rising.

That they could refinance in two or three years at a lower rate. Trading on the supposed equity they were going to gain.
This is no one's fault but there own.

You do realize, that the rich still spend and that keeps the economic engine going? Or are you that blinded by the have not who wants some, but does not want to work for it?

Now on to your statement about engineering jobs and middle class type pay flat lining.
You obviously do not understand that in 2009 damn near everything flat lined.
Hell I did not earn a damn cent. I lived off my assets. This year is better but its not were it needs to be and growth while there is slow.


Oh and don't even get me started on your statement about Obama and the Senate and the House. They pretty much rubber stamp everything he wants.


Oh and fact is most of the shit being put to stimulus is for stupid little pet projects that Senators have been campaigning for, for their districts for years. Not real job growth. That is not the corporations fault that is our current House and Senate with our President at their best. LOL

Its funny how people whine and complain about the banks that got bailed out, are making money. Though those banks are the ones that have completely paid back the TARP money with interest.

That GM has managed to pay back theirs as well, that AIG might just pull it off themselves. Meanwhile Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac which are the current administrations darlings has not paid back a cent.

We are in a slow growth economic recovery at this point, to sit there and say we are not? Is to not have been following this the whole time. Or a severe lack of understanding of current economics.

In the end, yes America does need to improve its manufacturing base. The also people need to realize that the people who work harder will become rich and those that do not will not.
That you can have a nice life without having the most expensive shit.
The current middle class is partly a bunch of cry babies who do not want to take responsibility for their own actions and part in the mess. People who are more concerned with the new toy rather than living a decent life.

Rob from the rich give to the poor. LOL America is not in that sad of a state.
Economic revolt? We have already seen with the current administration and it is failing.

This was no one faults but their own . Robert Reich is a left wing economic rabble rouser . He actually speaks like a Communist.

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Brian

I wonder if people are still pumped up by that "HOPE and CHANGE" bullshit they fell for...

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TheWolf

sorry but I think the people have become disenfranchised with Washington. Until washington will spend what they take in, actually show a plan to eliminate the debt, and atleast get a social security administrator that doesn't say that social security isn't dead in 20 years. This whole going to "take from the wealthy to support the welfare rats" will not work. The rich are to smart for that.

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bb4_96

drift freaq

Well by citing Robert Reich and his left leaning bullshit about redistribution of wealth you are blaming the rich because he blames the rich. Plus your own statements above cited the rich.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bb4_96 You realize that the spending of the rich doesn’t come close to the rate at which the middle class spend right? Do you know what that means? That means as more income goes to a smaller group earning less and less gets spent. Pretty easy concept. Even the have nots can get that right?

Perhaps we should toss the term the rich and adopt the term well off. The well off are keeping a lot of business's alive in my area when a lot of the middle class has stopped going out. That is just one example and I have seen it in other parts of the country in my travels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bb4_96 If all the wages flatlined why did the spread grow in ‘09 The stimulus package was a stupid attempt to fix an economy that was fundamentally flawed. It didn’t matter if every penny went into middle class pockets. No one is mad about bailouts anymore. They are mad about the bonuses

Again I have first hand experience with having cousins in the manufacturing business ( machine parts) in the midwest . As well as my own business and friends in the real estate business and it gives me a pretty good overall picture.
Do you have these kind of first hand facts to draw from for your theories?

As far as bonuses goes I can pretty much say that is obvious most people find some bonuses and salaries possibly out of line. Though most people do not have the knowledge on how to correct it either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bb4_96 When you say we are in slow recovery you are slandering Warren Buffet. He believes we’ll be in the shit for at least 5 more years and i believe, he has nothing to gain from lying. We’re onbly going to see small phantom "recoveries" until the fundamental flaw is remedied. GDP viewed as a function of income holds his theory true.

First off do not accuse me of slandering Warren Buffet, do you even know the meaning of the word. I have said nothing about Warren Buffet and for you to say my words slander prove you do not even understand the definition of the word.

Second off, Warren Buffet even feels we are in a slow recovery. I have heard him say so first hand on CNBC. Do you even follow economics news or do you just read and spout Robert Reich rhetoric?

Phantom recoveries? LOL this shit is real and I follow out. Seriously I think you are stepping out of your league here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bb4_96 Some of the hardest working people in america will never see 6 figures. It’s about motivation and career choice. We can’t all be doctor’s and lawyers. Some jobs no matter how hard working or educated you are aren’t going to make you rich, but they still have to be done. You must see that. Don’t slander the middle class. As ignorant as they are they move the economy. Most of them are sulking, not crying.

Wow just wow there you go again. Seriously a lot of Americans have nice lives without 6 figure incomes and are perfectly happy.

It is starting to sound like this is a personal thing for you. Like you feel you are never going to be rich and have a problem with it.

Oh and there you go again saying I am slandering something I am not even doing. Please learn to use the words your using with proper definitions.

I have done nothing to put down the middle class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bb4_96 All, I didn’t start this thread to read fox news bedtime stories or have my intelligence insulted by being fed recent history. Pretend the figures that the census puts out are accurate and the wealth of the nation has been pooling within the wealthiest sector. Then pretend that if it continues the limited amount of income left in the middle class will starve economic motion. With those thoughts in mind I’d like to involve creative minds in an effort to curb what is coming. What social/economical policies could be implemented in the US to stave off the inevitable over taxation of the wealthy?

Ok Mr thinking your being fed Fox news bedtimes stories I do not even watch Fox News. I do follow financial markets and have seen a few economic up and downs than you have.

You spout a theory from an extreme left leaning economist who spouts extreme socialist ideals.
Then in your last words you flip over to saying what could be implemented to stop taxing the wealthy? When the very thing Robert Reich speaks of is taking the money from the wealthy.

You can't seem to get your theories straight and you contradict yourself.

Basically the gist of this is you feel corporations are the bad boys. Seriously corporations helped build this country.

This whole thread is nothing but a propaganda campaign for Robert Reich's theories. Which you are purporting.

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bb4_96

drift freaq,

If you'd like to continue this discussion via pm i'd be more than happy to. I don't want to further clutter this thread with an individual dispute. Thats not why i made it. I'd also like to apologize if I've offended you with my remarks something about the word communist/socialist really stirs a temper in myself.

At any rate I'd like to keep this a productive discussion on curbing the current economic trends as I've stated before. Don't want it to get cluttered.

Agamemnon

So let me get this straight. You start a topic of conversation and ask what others think about the article you posted and then get pissed when someone posts a very logical and factual counter arguement? And then you want to take the topic to PMs?

Fuck that!

Talk about it here. Thats what this section is for.

bb4_96

His arguement didn't counter mine. I asked ways to curb the aftermath of the theory proposed by Robert Reich. The other individual proceeded to infer things I didn't say that weren't even revelant to this thread. He didn't even make mention anything I asked in my post.

He can open up a econ 101 thread if he wants to talk about general econ. I just want to discuss a very specific topic which is a very specific theory. Anything alse is threadjacking.

SlideWell

Im all for taxin the rich.
not everyone had the opportunities in life to make it to that 1%.
life is like a card game, we all get dealt different hands.
but, wealthy people shouldnt have to share shit with people that didnt earn it for themselves. on the other hand, they should be taxed accordingly, i.e. car tabs, in which some states tax them much higher on the basis of the car they purchased. thats all i have on this subject.

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cc4usmc

So what do you purpose bb4?


It's not about the hand you're dealt, it's how you play it. Sure, there are a lot of people out there who are much worse off, but to say the %1 off are much better off the the norm is just plain silly. Many of the richest people in US history came from nothing.

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Okinawandrifter87

This is so true.. it's if you want to make lemonade out of lemons.. not your stuck with lemons only.

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SlideWell

in History, sure. but today, as far as i saw on yahoo news, most of the top ten were born into it, with a big silver spoon. Bill Gates made his own, and still he gives mioolions and millions to charities, research and cancer groups for ways we can all have a better life.
i propose bb4 should buy a bow and arrow, green hat and tights, and set up camp in the woods. see if that shit still flies in this day n age, haha.

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cc4usmc

I don't know if you're referring to the top 10 in general, or US, but here's a couple lists.

The World's Billionaires Page 26 of 41 - Forbes.com

The World's Billionaires - Forbes.com

There are a lot of self made billionaires on those lists. And even if they inherited the money, it still took someone to make the money.

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bb4_96

I like the idea of social reform. US consumers have the GDP in their palms of their damn hands if they realized the power of their dollars. If a group of americans could be swayed to curb their spending in order to negotiate better wages that would help move the capital back into the working sector.

Example: Take the refreshment industry for instance. If x amount of people decided to boycott coke/pepsi etc in an effort to negotiate a boost in wages for blue collar workers for coke would coke cave? Look at how much they spend on advertising? Where do advertising dollars go? The idea here is to start by slowing the flow of income to the wealthiest and eventually balace the economy and restart growth on a resonable pace.

The big corporation's money comes from the consumer not the other way around. The consumer has the power if they'd wake up and realize it.

From that point on it comes down to careful regulation. It's american nature to overborrow, it's been proven time after time. That can't be allowed to happen. Lenders are as much to blame as borrowers. With better regulation of lending practices the debt to icome ratio wouldn't be so detrimental.

Education is critical. I'm convinced that if you tell a people they'll die if they jump off a cliff for the most part they aren't going to do it. People were being told that they would be able to pull these balloon mortgages off. They don't teach balloon mortgages in high school economics. IMO they don't even teach english anymore but that's another issue. The american needs to be educated plai nand simple. I believe many american's honestly did believe the balloon interest rates were a good idea. Who was there to tell them otherwise? Moderation also needs to be taught. It's been totally lost on this country as of late.

three social reforms to remedy the issues at hand.
-Pay the workers or else
-regulate the stupid(because nobody will be ignorant after...)
-educate everyone(no more ignorance/easy prey)

ronmcdon

ok, so how do you suggest the american people remedy the problems we are facing?

drift freaq

Ok I am out of this discussion. The said OP has gone into a long winded private message to me solely for the sake of pushing his position. Which is completely out of control and uncalled for.

He has gone to say I am insulting the middle class among other things which is laughable at best.

Because of this he has been put on a ignore list. It was my bad for even trying to talk sense to this person in the first place.

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bb4_96

^^appreciated. Although I don't know why you needed a public forum to say that. I check my inbox.

ronmcdon,

I listed a few thoughts of mine a few posts up. I just think american's as consumers have the power to fix this with minimal government intervention. Thats the long and short of my spiel. What are your opinions?

upsdude

there will always be people who have more money than others, rich have more than the middle, the middle has more than the poor...i'm in the middle class-and it's bullshit that a portion of my check has to go to lazy ass jealous people who do nothing but whine with their hands out wanting more free stuff. watch the movie princess and you'll know what i'm talking about.

Matej

If your job can be done by any person in any third world country; and for less; then it is most likely your own fault that you never strived to better yourself and improve your job outlook.
Outsourcing just means the country is advanced and has a strong service economy.
And loss of jobs could be prevented if post-high school education did not cost a decade of an average middle class person's salary, and was tax/state/government funded, at least partially. America needs more experts and specialists, and less generic laborers.

bb4_96

I appreciate your opinion but i don't think you read my first post.

TheWolf

In this argument, you propose that america's main export would be knowledge instead of products. This assumes many things, one being that the attainment of knowledge and expertise is a societal virtue. Second that this society would always have a market for it's products.

As blue collar jobs have disappeared, this has been found to not be true. Factory employee's are not retrained with a high degree of success into a white collar positions. Also economies can not survive just on service. They must have a product to make. Something to export. The biggest change from 1998-2008 was the conversion from manufacturing to jobs like banking and insurance. They do not create any value though which is something an economy must do.

As to the price of education, with drop out rates at 40+%. What good is a free college education with these kids can't graduate highschool? Lets face it. Not everyone aspires to be a rocket scientist.

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