TF★ - What is caster? Stance Camber/Caster plate test results - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

tougefactory · 02-18-2011, 01:52 PM

What is caster? Caster is the angle measured where the steering pivot axis is tilted forward, from vertical.

Increasing positive caster angle adds straight line stability, self centering of the steering, and camber gain. For drifting, added caster is beneficial for its ability to counter steer quickly and for quick transitions. For Grip, straight line stability for high speed, and camber gained turning turn-in can be a big advantage.

So you ask, "I know all this stuff, what's the point of this thread?". Good question. There are problems caused by the way the caster angle is changed on 240sx's. Only way to change caster is to use adjustable tension rods, by shortening the TC rods, you pull the wheels forward and effectively changing the caster angle.

By pulling the front wheels forward, you have now changed the geometry of the steering rack to the spindle. Theoretically this will increase ackerman and reduce total steering angle, which is not desired effect you want for performance.

To test our theory we put a S13 240sx with adjustable caster arms, coilovers(ride height set 2" lower than stock), stock inner and outer tie rods on our alignment system. Our state of the art system can measure "maximum turn angle", "Measured Ackerman" which we will be using for this test.
( I know its not a 240sx, the picture is to show you our alignment system

)

1st test - Stance GR+ with standard camber plates, Stance Tension rods, Stock inner and outer tie rods. Ride height was set to 2.5" lower than stock.
We set the initial alignment setting to what we typically set most of the s13's with street tires. Caster - 7.1 deg, camber 3.5 deg, toe - 0 .
Max turn angle : 34 deg
Measured ackerman : 58%

2nd test - Stance GR+ with camber/caster plates. Stance Tension rods, stock inner and outer tie rods. For this test, we adjusted the tension rods to get the tie rods to sit close to 90deg to the spindle, this also centered the wheel in the wheel well. Caster was around 6deg at this setting. We than installed the Stance camber/caster plates and adjusted the caster to 7.1 deg. Camber was set to 3.5 and toe was set to 0. This way we minimize any variables.
Max turn angle : 39 deg
Measured ackerman : 51%

What does this mean?

Ackerman geometry was developed for low speed maneuverability.

For racecars, less ackerman is desired. Decreased ackerman will result in better initial turn-in response. For high speed racecars, decreased ackerman geometry is used to compensate for the large difference in slip angle between the inner and outer tires while cornering. This can reduce tire temps and increase traction during cornering.

Conclusion :
Drifting: Caster/Camber plate will increase angle and faster counter steer for transitions. Also reduce the effect of steering overcenter. Increase in 5 degrees of angle with stock inner/outer tie rods, with spacers in conjunction with camber/caster plate, you should be able to gain 8-10 degrees. That's modified knuckle category...

High Speed Grip: Caster/Camber plate will get the benefits of increased caster angle without increasing ackerman.

Low speed Auto X : Caster/Camber plate will reduce caster for faster steering and increase ackerman for low speed maneuverability.

Stance Camber/Caster plate will +/- around 1.5 to 2 degrees of caster depending on your camber setting.

MattRose · 02-18-2011, 02:10 PM

Fantastic writeup guys!

I posted it here:
http://forums.613driftwerks.ca/showt...0073#post80073

On our local forum for all the guys who don't make it out to Zilvia, I hope you don't mind

Offtopic, but I have a 1994 R33 Gts25t, can you PM me the pricing for some stance GR+ and the estimated wait time?

Cheers!

shiftdrift · 02-18-2011, 02:21 PM

excellent writeup, this is why touge factory is the shit.

tougefactory · 02-21-2011, 12:34 PM

No problem!

Check your PM

tougefactory · 02-21-2011, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiftdrift

excellent writeup, this is why touge factory is the shit.

Thanks for your support!

Patrick Bowering · 02-23-2011, 07:15 PM

Does anyone know if these are compatable with bc racing coilovers? I doubt it but im hoping they are.

'97 S14 SE Turbo · 02-23-2011, 10:00 PM

Got specs/dimensions of the center bearing hole size? Would like to see if it will fit Zeal coilovers.

tougefactory · 02-24-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Bowering

Does anyone know if these are compatable with bc racing coilovers? I doubt it but im hoping they are.

Measure the ID of the pillowball.

tougefactory · 02-24-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by '97 S14 SE Turbo

Got specs/dimensions of the center bearing hole size? Would like to see if it will fit Zeal coilovers.

PM me the ID of the pillowball. I will let you know

OBEEWON · 02-24-2011, 11:55 AM

That Akerman dude is such a downer. The less I get of him the better.

lflkajfj12123 · 03-20-2011, 07:40 PM

Stance #1　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　

slideways90 · 03-20-2011, 07:52 PM

ill measure the my id of my upper pillow ball tomorrow i want these.

Tearlessj · 12-10-2011, 01:08 AM

Question, will a average alignment shop be able to set these for me? or will I have to go to a race shop?

ShakotanGazelle · 12-10-2011, 11:06 AM

would these fit on other coilovers? or just on Stance coilovers?

Howie Felter Snatch · 12-11-2011, 02:57 AM

A normal alignment shop wouldn't know what the fuck they're looking at with non-oem arms and coilovers with caster/camber adjusting plates.. lol..

future · 12-11-2011, 06:56 AM

Not true. I always got my car aligned and I just let the. Know and they fixed it. Some places will charge extra though

Tearlessj · 12-11-2011, 11:36 PM

Well I know the guys at my alignment shop very well. They drive 240's as well, just wondering if there is special equipment needed besides a normal hunters rack.

LayNLow · 12-17-2011, 02:35 AM

Nah Judd, a regular rack should be fine. Not like your trying to get a readout of your exact ackerman and steering angle. Just find out how they work and let the tech know how to adjust them. Done and done. I cant wait for my taxes to come in. MMMM goodies!

AutoRnD · 04-12-2012, 03:28 PM

Great Writeup. We will be including camber caster plates with our S-chasis coils now.

g00se · 04-13-2012, 05:34 PM

fit KW variant 3's? I would rather buy these than the T3 ones

MadScientist · 04-13-2012, 05:58 PM

Ummm... you guys realize that the Stock Tension Rods with their Huge bushing is designed with this in mind already, and by replacing it with rigid Tension rods you are eleminating this movement?

No, I am not saying anyone should revert back to those useless dry rotted, weak stock rods.

Stance - Great job putting the factory suspension geometry back in use.
TF - Thanks for educating everyone.

SicBastard · 04-03-2014, 08:34 AM

"Low speed Auto X : Caster/Camber plate will reduce caster for faster steering and increase ackerman for low speed maneuverability."

Did you mean OR rather than AND? And wouldnt you reccomend the higher ackerman set up for autocross?

02-18-2011, 02:21 PM	#3
shiftdrift Nissanaholic! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: indiana Age: 31 Posts: 2,242 Trader Rating: (42) Feedback Score: 42 reviews	excellent writeup, this is why touge factory is the shit. __________________ SW Fab

02-21-2011, 12:34 PM	#4
tougefactory Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,511 Trader Rating: (27) Feedback Score: 27 reviews	No problem! Check your PM __________________ Performance Parts // Track Prep // Fabrication Follow us on Instagram @TFWorks For all the latest TF★ news visit our blog!!**

02-24-2011, 11:55 AM	#10
OBEEWON Post Whore! Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Hightened State of Emergency Posts: 6,051 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	That Akerman dude is such a downer. The less I get of him the better. __________________

12-10-2011, 01:08 AM	#13
Tearlessj Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Memphis Age: 29 Posts: 1,907 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	Question, will a average alignment shop be able to set these for me? or will I have to go to a race shop? __________________ Nagasaki Motors Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

12-11-2011, 11:36 PM	#17
Tearlessj Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Memphis Age: 29 Posts: 1,907 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	Well I know the guys at my alignment shop very well. They drive 240's as well, just wondering if there is special equipment needed besides a normal hunters rack. __________________ Nagasaki Motors Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

02-18-2011, 01:52 PM	#1
tougefactory Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,511 Trader Rating: (27) Feedback Score: 27 reviews	TF★ - What is caster? Stance Camber/Caster plate test results What is caster? Caster is the angle measured where the steering pivot axis is tilted forward, from vertical. Increasing positive caster angle adds straight line stability, self centering of the steering, and camber gain. For drifting, added caster is beneficial for its ability to counter steer quickly and for quick transitions. For Grip, straight line stability for high speed, and camber gained turning turn-in can be a big advantage. So you ask, "I know all this stuff, what's the point of this thread?". Good question. There are problems caused by the way the caster angle is changed on 240sx's. Only way to change caster is to use adjustable tension rods, by shortening the TC rods, you pull the wheels forward and effectively changing the caster angle. By pulling the front wheels forward, you have now changed the geometry of the steering rack to the spindle. Theoretically this will increase ackerman and reduce total steering angle, which is not desired effect you want for performance. To test our theory we put a S13 240sx with adjustable caster arms, coilovers(ride height set 2" lower than stock), stock inner and outer tie rods on our alignment system. Our state of the art system can measure "maximum turn angle", "Measured Ackerman" which we will be using for this test. ( I know its not a 240sx, the picture is to show you our alignment system ) 1st test - Stance GR+ with standard camber plates, Stance Tension rods, Stock inner and outer tie rods. Ride height was set to 2.5" lower than stock. We set the initial alignment setting to what we typically set most of the s13's with street tires. Caster - 7.1 deg, camber 3.5 deg, toe - 0 . Max turn angle : 34 deg Measured ackerman : 58% 2nd test - Stance GR+ with camber/caster plates. Stance Tension rods, stock inner and outer tie rods. For this test, we adjusted the tension rods to get the tie rods to sit close to 90deg to the spindle, this also centered the wheel in the wheel well. Caster was around 6deg at this setting. We than installed the Stance camber/caster plates and adjusted the caster to 7.1 deg. Camber was set to 3.5 and toe was set to 0. This way we minimize any variables. Max turn angle : 39 deg Measured ackerman : 51% What does this mean? Ackerman geometry was developed for low speed maneuverability. For racecars, less ackerman is desired. Decreased ackerman will result in better initial turn-in response. For high speed racecars, decreased ackerman geometry is used to compensate for the large difference in slip angle between the inner and outer tires while cornering. This can reduce tire temps and increase traction during cornering. Conclusion : Drifting: Caster/Camber plate will increase angle and faster counter steer for transitions. Also reduce the effect of steering overcenter. Increase in 5 degrees of angle with stock inner/outer tie rods, with spacers in conjunction with camber/caster plate, you should be able to gain 8-10 degrees. That's modified knuckle category... High Speed Grip: Caster/Camber plate will get the benefits of increased caster angle without increasing ackerman. Low speed Auto X : Caster/Camber plate will reduce caster for faster steering and increase ackerman for low speed maneuverability. Stance Camber/Caster plate will +/- around 1.5 to 2 degrees of caster depending on your camber setting. __________________ Performance Parts // Track Prep // Fabrication Follow us on Instagram @TFWorks For all the latest TF★ news visit our blog!!** Last edited by tougefactory; 02-18-2011 at 02:34 PM..

02-18-2011, 02:10 PM	#2
MattRose Leaky Injector Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Ottawa,Ontario,Canada Age: 32 Posts: 141 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Fantastic writeup guys! I posted it here: http://forums.613driftwerks.ca/showt...0073#post80073 On our local forum for all the guys who don't make it out to Zilvia, I hope you don't mind Offtopic, but I have a 1994 R33 Gts25t, can you PM me the pricing for some stance GR+ and the estimated wait time? Cheers!

02-23-2011, 07:15 PM	#6
Patrick Bowering Leaky Injector Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Edmonton, AB Age: 32 Posts: 145 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	Does anyone know if these are compatable with bc racing coilovers? I doubt it but im hoping they are.

02-23-2011, 10:00 PM	#7
'97 S14 SE Turbo Zilvia Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Tempe, Az Posts: 165 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Got specs/dimensions of the center bearing hole size? Would like to see if it will fit Zeal coilovers.

03-20-2011, 07:40 PM	#11
lflkajfj12123 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: 　　　　　　　　 Posts: 8,480 Trader Rating: (20) Feedback Score: 20 reviews	Stance #1

03-20-2011, 07:52 PM	#12
slideways90 Leaky Injector Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 111 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	ill measure the my id of my upper pillow ball tomorrow i want these.

12-10-2011, 11:06 AM	#14
ShakotanGazelle Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: DFW, TX Posts: 514 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	would these fit on other coilovers? or just on Stance coilovers?

12-11-2011, 02:57 AM	#15
Howie Felter Snatch Zilvia Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: USA/Australia/Japan Posts: 223 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	A normal alignment shop wouldn't know what the fuck they're looking at with non-oem arms and coilovers with caster/camber adjusting plates.. lol..

12-17-2011, 02:35 AM	#18
LayNLow Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: memphis tn Posts: 346 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Nah Judd, a regular rack should be fine. Not like your trying to get a readout of your exact ackerman and steering angle. Just find out how they work and let the tech know how to adjust them. Done and done. I cant wait for my taxes to come in. MMMM goodies! __________________

04-12-2012, 03:28 PM	#19
AutoRnD Post Whore! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: SF BAY AREA, CA Posts: 2,601 Trader Rating: (1) Rides Gallery: AutoRnD Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Great Writeup. We will be including camber caster plates with our S-chasis coils now. __________________ www.AutoRnD.com Nardi, Enkei, Stance, AME Master Distributors for USA Check Out Our Facebook!

04-13-2012, 05:34 PM	#20
g00se Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: CA Posts: 381 Trader Rating: (7) Feedback Score: 7 reviews	fit KW variant 3's? I would rather buy these than the T3 ones

04-13-2012, 05:58 PM	#21
MadScientist Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NOLA Age: 44 Posts: 1,964 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	Ummm... you guys realize that the Stock Tension Rods with their Huge bushing is designed with this in mind already, and by replacing it with rigid Tension rods you are eleminating this movement? No, I am not saying anyone should revert back to those useless dry rotted, weak stock rods. Stance - Great job putting the factory suspension geometry back in use. TF - Thanks for educating everyone.

04-03-2014, 08:34 AM	#22
SicBastard Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 803 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	"Low speed Auto X : Caster/Camber plate will reduce caster for faster steering and increase ackerman for low speed maneuverability." Did you mean OR rather than AND? And wouldnt you reccomend the higher ackerman set up for autocross? __________________ BURN OUT IN YOUR FACE! 1998 S14 LS7/T56 swap in progress, build thread: http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/147301...d-gto-pan.html

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