Seized Motor or Stuck _____?

[5280VertDET]

UPDATED: Trans dun frozed up real gud.


Fearing the worst here about a potential seized motor.
(notes below)

Is there anything else that can bind the engine to not spin by starter or by hand??

Also, I don't want to bend a rod, but I keep reading about these old timers CRANKing on the breaker bar to free it up, is that even a concern to bend a rod? (stock rebuild)

So, in the process of finishing my car and the SOB will not turn over. Just a thud/thunck when the starter turns. Replaced and test starter, all working 100%. It's a SR20DET Automatic trans, Verified the motor turns (via socket with trans in neutral) and its compression prior to dropping it in.

Prior to turning it over I wanted to pressure test the fuel system, a few leaks that I patched up, but never cranked it with fuel pressure. The fuel prime was about 5 weeks ago (in the process of moving to a new house and wanted to drive it over).

Now that everything fuel system-wise is sealed up tighter than Tebow's butthole, I cannot get it to crank over at all.

Tried hand cranking (CW) with a 2 ft breaker bar but it will not budge. the crank pulley bolt seems to tighten (even so slightly) so I pushed a bit more and nothing. No movement, nada.

Put some Marvels Mystery Oil in and tried again a day later and still NOTHING.That was 2 days ago.

My other concern is that something in the trans or a solenoid is stuck causing the motor to not turn, but it does shift to neutral and the tires can spin while in neutral. Also, I verified the motor turned in neutral prior to the drop anyway.

[KAT-PWR]

Is there water in the cylinders?
If the car is in neutral you should be able to turn it over.
How many times did you turn it over before dropping in? Did you build it?

[TheRealSy90]

Even if it was in gear being automatic you'd be able to turn the motor.

[5280VertDET]

Is there water in the cylinders?
If the car is in neutral you should be able to turn it over.
How many times did you turn it over before dropping in? Did you build it?

No water, but through the valve cover the pistons looks shiny (as in fluid shiny not, metal shiny)

It was built by the SR20 store in CA, had a previous owner than me, but it's never been ready to run until now. (bought about 15 months back from a reputable seller of parted out cars on here.) Claimed to have been pulled running, bought just the long block.

One full rotation.

Even if it was in gear being automatic you'd be able to turn the motor.

Right, thats what I thought. ughhhhhhhhhhhh

[cotbu]

if you haven't tried rotating the engine backwards, try that. don't torque it use just enough force for it to turn. if it doesn't stop!
Leave all the plugs out, kill spark and fuel, remove valve cover.
you might see the chain binding or notice something.

[5280VertDET]

if you haven't tried rotating the engine backwards, try that. don't torque it use just enough force for it to turn. if it doesn't stop!
Leave all the plugs out, kill spark and fuel, remove valve cover.
you might see the chain binding or notice something.

Thanks, didn't want to have to, but that's my next steps. I don't want to crank on it find out something else is stuck and bend something else. Thanks for the input.

I just find it hard to believe that the rings seized with a bit (maybe bad) fuel in a few short weeks.

[lunchmeat]

Never heard of cranking an engine with a breaker bar to free up a seized piston. Seen it done to break the harmonic balancer bolt loose many times though.

[Kingtal0n]

what cotbu said. only thing I can add is

1. make sure there is oil in the engine
A: dont use the starter until you verify the engine cranks freely by hand. The starter will bend shit.
B: you might need to pull the valve cover and look at the chain
C: You might need to pull the oil pan and look at the rotating assembly
D: Inspect the plugs and cylinders for damage
E: Like he said, rock the engine back and forth (the balancer rotation) feeling for trouble, once it goes around free, do it again

[5280VertDET]

C: You might need to pull the oil pan and look at the rotating assembly


Thanks, heading out to the garage now.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/776571938156126208/8FH9g48B.jpg

This trigger a 'member berry', when I was getting the car out of the old garage (long story short) a jack had slipped and hit the oil pan, denting it dead center. The dent goes in MAYBE 1/2 an inch and you can see where the oil strainer"kissed" the bottom of the pan.

I didn't think to much of it and ordered a new pan and inspected the strainer, which appeared undamaged.

Judging from this guide and the FSM the strainer wouldn't be something that could stop the rotating assembly? Or am I wrong?

http://www.frsport.com/How-to-Change-Oil-Pan-and-Strainer-for-SR20DET--fixes-low-oil-pressure-light-_t_33.html

Also, This is the strainer that is in the motor. The S14 style one (pictured top)

http://www.nicoclub.com/articles/images/p1020555.jpg

[jr_ss]

The strainer shouldn't interfere with rotating the motor over unless you royally botched the install.

Pull the tensioner to get some free play in the chain.

[5280VertDET]

OK, thanks for everyone's input! I have looked through the top end and can not see anything glaring at me.

As you'll be able to see in the video, the cams move a bit against the tensioner, which I think means that the head isn't the issue. Next you'll see my 4 ft breaker with a 27mm socket on the crank pulley and putting quite a bit of effort to rotate it. If I go the other way the crank pulley bolt seems to loosen. I have also loosened all the belts and removed the CAS.

Also, the 4oz of MMO that were in each cylinder had dripped through, I added another 4oz to each cylinder tonight.

I am completely stumped, I just can't believe a piston could seize so quickly. FML...

?v=oz4HviGiN2g

[jedi03]

check torque converter bolts...I have had them come loose and bind pretty good...

[cotbu]

Time to pull it.

[hanzbrady]

I'd definitely say there's something wrong with the drive train. I've been able to turn over engine by hand that have sat for 30 years with enough oil and persuasion.

[5280VertDET]

check torque converter bolts...I have had them come loose and bind pretty good...

Time to pull it.

I'd definitely say there's something wrong with the drive train. I've been able to turn over engine by hand that have sat for 30 years with enough oil and persuasion.

Fuck. Thats my exact thought. Whelp, it's gonna snow soon anyway... I got some time.

Thanks.

[justinbyrant]

its something to do with the bottom end, what work did you do since buying the engine? ever replaced head gasket or anything? check torque converter bolts, and flywheel bolts I have seen torque converter bolts back out far enough to hit the engine and keep it from turning over, did the trans go on easily or did you have to force it?

[5280VertDET]

its something to do with the bottom end, what work did you do since buying the engine? ever replaced head gasket or anything? check torque converter bolts, and flywheel bolts I have seen torque converter bolts back out far enough to hit the engine and keep it from turning over, did the trans go on easily or did you have to force it?

I haven't touched the long block since I got it (minus the oil pan as noted above), never ran even, the trans went on smooth-ish (I didn't need much force or a BFH) and I just cant believe the bolts could back out magically? I mean, it's never been started since the trans was on the new motor; just hand cranked once when the trans was attached to make sure this didn't happen...

[5280VertDET]

Aight, so here is a bit more "troubleshooting".

I removed the cam sprockets and tried to move the crank, nothing. Not a budge.

Also, I have gone through 1.5 bottles of MMO and wacked the cylinders with a wooden dowel to try and loosen a piston; tried to turn it again (cams now attached) nothing. Not a budge.

At this point I think there are 2 options.

1- The pistons are super seized (in record time, I may add) and I need a full tear down.

2- The Torque converter is siezed.

Here are some questions about the 2 scenarios:

1- How the fuck does gas seize a motor so quick, especially not breaking free with an oil soak... and even if I get them unseized, do I need to rebuild it anyway? (or just do a compression test/ camera inspection of the walls?

2- The only thing I can think of is that I MAY have (unlikely as I distictly remember using the original bolts) used 5 speed fly wheel bolts on the flexplate. Which if I did, is that even possible to get them flush and torqued down? Wouldn't they been too long and bottomed out?

Ugh...

Thanks again, everyone for your input.

[TheRealSy90]

I wonder if the cam timing is all wrong and you're pushing a piston into a valve.

[hanzbrady]

I wonder if the cam timing is all wrong and you're pushing a piston into a valve.

He'd be able to rock the engine if that we're the case.

[KAT-PWR]

Take trans off, go from there

[hanzbrady]

take trans off, go from there

+1........

[5280VertDET]

+1........

Yup. Thats the plan. stay tuned, thanks dudes!

[justinbyrant]

remove the starter and try to turn the engine over by hand, I wonder if the cowl on the starter is hitting the flex plate, maybe the auto and manual starters are different?

[5280VertDET]

remove the starter and try to turn the engine over by hand, I wonder if the cowl on the starter is hitting the flex plate, maybe the auto and manual starters are different?

Thanks, did that. Still nothing.

[justinbyrant]

so the cams rock back and forth a little but the crank doesn't move at all?

[5280VertDET]

so the cams rock back and forth a little but the crank doesn't move at all?

Exactly.

I was thinking of moving each cam independently with the timing chain removed to check for things stuck there, but I don't know how close the the cylinders are to TDC and don't want to bend a valve. Plus, they move a little, where as the crank doesn't budge. At all.

I confirmed the the shifter is engaging in the proper gear placement by putting it in neutral and spinning the rear wheels, which moved as normal.

[justinbyrant]

Ya its nothing in the top end, if it was the crank would move a small amount like the cams until the chain tensioned up either direction, something is wrong In the bottome end, all the bell housing bolts lined up right? and did you use any of the bolts to pull the transmission all the way up to the engine?

[5280VertDET]

Ya its nothing in the top end, if it was the crank would move a small amount like the cams until the chain tensioned up either direction, something is wrong In the bottome end, all the bell housing bolts lined up right? and did you use any of the bolts to pull the transmission all the way up to the engine?

The Trans was attached to the motor out of the car. I attached the flexplate and then slid the TC and trans on. Then tightened up the bell housing to the block. I also gave it a hand crank from the crank pulley in neutral to make sure nothing was binding, IIRC I turned it a full rotation.

[justinbyrant]

you made sure the torque converter to flex plate bolts were tight?

[justinbyrant]

is your shift linkage damage?

[5280VertDET]

you made sure the torque converter to flex plate bolts were tight?

Yup. Torqued down to whatever was spec... Cant recall ATM.

is your shift linkage damage?

Shouldn't be, the trans shifts just fine with the gear selector.

[justinbyrant]

Shouldn't be, the trans shifts just fine with the gear selector.

yes but does it actually go into gears? the shift linkage in my lexus was bent and it would move back and forth smoothly but it wouldn't go into park and the shifter would show in between gears on the lever, not sure if it would keep the engine from turning but if you think your in neutral and your actually in drive maybe, idk Im not good with auto transmissions lol, but something has to be binding up

[Sileighty_85]

i doubt anything in the engine is seized from sitting.

My AE86 has an SR that sat for 3 years in my storage locker in the humid ass state of LA, I bought it from a guy that it sat in his storage for a few years as well.
Then another 4 years while I was in japan.

Poured a bit of oil in each cylinder before rotating the crank before I installed it and it had no issues.

I feel like its something with the flex plate, maybe installed backwards, too long of a bolt or bolt head is too long, did you install the flex plate spacer for the crank bolts?

[lunchmeat]

Did the same thing with my 67 fairlane when waking it up from a 12 year coma.


Wonder if the trans is stuck in park. Not disengaging the parking maul in the trans.

[5280VertDET]

i doubt anything in the engine is seized from sitting.

My AE86 has an SR that sat for 3 years in my storage locker in the humid ass state of LA, I bought it from a guy that it sat in his storage for a few years as well.
Then another 4 years while I was in japan.

Poured a bit of oil in each cylinder before rotating the crank before I installed it and it had no issues.

I feel like its something with the flex plate, maybe installed backwards, too long of a bolt or bolt head is too long, did you install the flex plate spacer for the crank bolts?

Thank you! I am starting to think that the motor is fine, for exactly those reasons. It's simply too fast to seize this much.

Honestly, I don't remember, I stripped the trans off the old motor (original SR auto) and put everything back on the new long block, as far as I know.

Did the same thing with my 67 fairlane when waking it up from a 12 year coma.


Wonder if the trans is stuck in park. Not disengaging the parking maul in the trans.

This is what I think too, but having put the car in neutral and being able to moved the rear wheels I moved on and thought that everything is fine; well fine enough to moved the motor.

Going to try and pull the trans off this weekend, but I am going out of country for a week on Sunday, so I may lose motivation to get to it before then.

Thanks again everyone! Seriously.

Edit: I think you meant "Parking Pawl"?

[cotbu]

You haven't unbolted it from the trans yet?
Yeah you can stop saying it's the rings, because you were applying too much force, in the video. Tsunami engines still turn over, anyway. Did you happen to be missing any sockets? No? OK try just loosening all the transmission bolts. Then turn the engine over by hand. Go from there.

[lunchmeat]

Yea, pawl is right. Brain fart and its been 10 years since I opened an auto trans.

[5280VertDET]

UPDATE!

FINALLY got the trans off and it turn out that it was the issue.

The motor spins VERY smooth with the Flywheel and Torque Convert installed and no trans!

http://replygif.net/i/203.gif

I have a spare that I am rebuilding and upgrading.

Got the transGo HD2 shift kit and new gaskets to go on the low mileage KA trans and hopefully just easily swap the bellhousings.

Then I am having a local shop install it, not taking any more chances and it's a HUGE PITA!!

[STR8 H8N]

UPDATE!

FINALLY got the trans off and it turn out that it was the issue.

The motor spins VERY smooth with the Flywheel and Torque Convert installed and no trans!

http://replygif.net/i/203.gif

I have a spare that I am rebuilding and upgrading.

Got the transGo HD2 shift kit and new gaskets to go on the low mileage KA trans and hopefully just easily swap the bellhousings.

Then I am having a local shop install it, not taking any more chances and it's a HUGE PITA!!

i can help with trans install

[5280VertDET]

i can help with trans install

You in Colorado? :kiss:

[STR8 H8N]

You in Colorado? :kiss:

fly me out :kiss: