pls help ka24e oil soaking #3 plug on startup

[davidg01234]

so heres the story. my 240 started running on 3 cylinders due to #3 plug being completely soaked in oil. So i figured maybe valve seals. Changed them, nope still soaking the plug. then i thought HG. I pulled the head, couldnt see anything wrong with the head, gasket, or block. I went ahead and got the head resurfaced, put new HG, new head bolts, and nope. Still soaking #3 plug!!:mad:
compression is about 160 on all 4. did compression test again with oil in the cylinders and they only went up about 5psi each so no problem there. Maybe i didnt put the valve seals on right?? What could cause the plug to quickly get covered in oil on startup that it wont even make a spark?? Even if there was NO valve seal at all i figured it would still be able to make a spark and produce gobs of smoke. Is it possible to have a bad oil control ring but still have good compression?

[davidg01234]

gee, great help guys :-/

[Kingtal0n]

Oil can by itself hide a ring problem.

Either there is so much oil in the cylinder from the previously bad valve seals that its all still in there sitting around.

or the ring is really bad, you just cant see it. and the oil is helping your compression stay up.

Where else can oil come from? below the piston, or above the head, or... you can get creative and say maybe the cylinder wall is cracked, or maybe the head is cracked but that is pretty unlikely. I would just be sure you clean that cylinder out really good, open it up for good airflow (plug out, valve open) and clean it out with some brake cleaner or other detergent / hydrophobic solvents. Do a leakdown test if you can.

What about right before the intake valve? Is there some kind of emission equipment or oil line anywhere involved with the intake manifold? I am not familiar with that engine.

[davidg01234]

Oil can by itself hide a ring problem.

Either there is so much oil in the cylinder from the previously bad valve seals that its all still in there sitting around.

or the ring is really bad, you just cant see it. and the oil is helping your compression stay up.

Where else can oil come from? below the piston, or above the head, or... you can get creative and say maybe the cylinder wall is cracked, or maybe the head is cracked but that is pretty unlikely. I would just be sure you clean that cylinder out really good, open it up for good airflow (plug out, valve open) and clean it out with some brake cleaner or other detergent / hydrophobic solvents. Do a leakdown test if you can.

What about right before the intake valve? Is there some kind of emission equipment or oil line anywhere involved with the intake manifold? I am not familiar with that engine.

Well first off thanks for your input. Its definnitely not the HG, or valve seals, or left over oil. trust me ive made sure to get it cleaned and then as soon as it starts up, BAM oil all over the plug. Im thinking the oil control ring is bad but the compression ring is still good. Here is the kicker though, when i took the intake and exhuast manifolds off, both intake and exhaust #3 ports were covered in oil. So i thought maybe it was sucking in oil through the pcv. took the hose off and it still does it. so it HAS to be the oil control ring. But how is it possible for the oil to end up in the intake port though? I can understand it being in the exhaust port, but not the intake port. Also there is sitting oil in the intake runners and number 3 has the most. i have completely disconneted the pcv so there is no intake-to-crankcase connection at all. HOW is there oil in there!?

[Kingtal0n]

Well first off thanks for your input. Its definnitely not the HG, or valve seals, or left over oil. trust me ive made sure to get it cleaned and then as soon as it starts up, BAM oil all over the plug. Im thinking the oil control ring is bad but the compression ring is still good. Here is the kicker though, when i took the intake and exhuast manifolds off, both intake and exhaust #3 ports were covered in oil. So i thought maybe it was sucking in oil through the pcv. took the hose off and it still does it. so it HAS to be the oil control ring. But how is it possible for the oil to end up in the intake port though? I can understand it being in the exhaust port, but not the intake port. Also there is sitting oil in the intake runners and number 3 has the most. i have completely disconneted the pcv so there is no intake-to-crankcase connection at all. HOW is there oil in there!?

I am not familiar with your engine, but it sounds like you are asking the right questions. Take a look at the FSM and see where your oil lines are, like you said the pcv is a possibility, there may be some kind of emissions equipment you are overlooking.

Oil would have to work pretty hard to get from the combustion chamber into the intake manifold, especially on a stock engine. Again you are asking the right question, how is that possible? Especially a significant puddle. Any pictures of your puddle? That much oil entering the cylinder can cause big problems. Are you sure it wasn't leftover in the intake manifold, from the pcv? In other words, you disconnected the PCV- fine. But maybe it had already filled up your intake with oil prior?

I am certainly recommending a leakdown and compression tests, as your next step. You may find during the leakdown exactly what you are looking for, a hole or port of entry affected by pressure in the combustion chamber through which oil may opportunistically flow.

[davidg01234]

I am not familiar with your engine, but it sounds like you are asking the right questions. Take a look at the FSM and see where your oil lines are, like you said the pcv is a possibility, there may be some kind of emissions equipment you are overlooking.

Oil would have to work pretty hard to get from the combustion chamber into the intake manifold, especially on a stock engine. Again you are asking the right question, how is that possible? Especially a significant puddle. Any pictures of your puddle? That much oil entering the cylinder can cause big problems. Are you sure it wasn't leftover in the intake manifold, from the pcv? In other words, you disconnected the PCV- fine. But maybe it had already filled up your intake with oil prior?

I am certainly recommending a leakdown and compression tests, as your next step. You may find during the leakdown exactly what you are looking for, a hole or port of entry affected by pressure in the combustion chamber through which oil may opportunistically flow.

ok so you do agree with me thats it seems very unlikely or impossible for the oil to be in the intake coming from the cylinder right? I already put everything back together so no pics. I will check fsm right now but i already had the head off so i know where everything is. and there are only 2 intake-to-crankcase connections that i see. One connection the pcv to the bottom block, and another right on top coming from the valve cover to the intake tube before the TB. I have disconnected both of those and its still happening. and yes You are right i believe it is leftover oil in the intake but that doesnt explain why the port on the head is oil soaked and the other 3 arent. Maybe its easier for the oil to go from the cylinder to intake than we think?? I have done leakdown and compression tests. Compression is 155-160 across all 4. my leakdown test wasnt that good to be honest because my gauge needle is messed up so all im able to do really is add air and listen to see where it is escpaing from and if i can hear about the same amount escaping on all 4. I hear a fair amount from the crankcase on all of them.
time to get back out there and stare at it and scratch my head :picardfp:

[Kingtal0n]

If that engine was in front of me. And I had this problem, and like yourself, I wanted to verify the oil was entering the combustion chamber from somewhere (and where?) There are two things I would do.

1. Clean the cylinder with a solvent as I mentioned. get it all free from oil. Then, with the injectors disabled, and the plug out, crank the engine and check of it fills with oil.

2. Take one step further, remove the camshaft so the valves do not operate, and repeat the test above. If the oil enters the engine during test #1 but not test #2 then it must be coming through a valve. If oil still enters on both tests, it is coming from below the piston or above the piston (no valve involvement)

[davidg01234]

If that engine was in front of me. And I had this problem, and like yourself, I wanted to verify the oil was entering the combustion chamber from somewhere (and where?) There are two things I would do.

1. Clean the cylinder with a solvent as I mentioned. get it all free from oil. Then, with the injectors disabled, and the plug out, crank the engine and check of it fills with oil.

2. Take one step further, remove the camshaft so the valves do not operate, and repeat the test above. If the oil enters the engine during test #1 but not test #2 then it must be coming through a valve. If oil still enters on both tests, it is coming from below the piston or above the piston (no valve involvement)

I tried that method. I even had someone turn it over while i put my inspection camera in the spark plug hole and cant see anything. So it doesnt fill with oil under low rpms like cranking i guess. It isint unitl it actually starts up around (500rpms) that the oil come in. If only there was a way to crank it faster...im almost certain its the rings...has to be. Even if there was no valve seal, it wouldn't put this much into the cylinder. And the HG is brand new. And there is no intake to oil connection so that leaves the rings...process of elemination tells me rings

[KAT-PWR]

I know it sounds silly....But are you sure the valve cover/spark plug gasket is on properly/sealing properly?

[l adam l]

I know it sounds silly....But are you sure the valve cover/spark plug gasket is on properly/sealing properly?

^this +1, when i was 16... i had a crx and i didn't put the spark plug gaskets under the valve cover on correctly...soaked the same one everytime til i figured it out.:picardfp:

worth a shot

[davidg01234]

lol guys on the ka24e the plugs arent in the middle of the valve cover they are on the side of the head right above the exhaust manifold. So there are no gaskets above them or anything like that. PSHH i WISH it was something so simple...im throwing the towel in and calling it rings. There is just nothing else it can possibly be. car is now for sale. I have another s13 with a 400hp rb25 anyways. so anyone in the north texas area looking for a good s13 I have one!