Butcher Crank

[Tom N]

I'm building a new engine for my car and have been searching for info on SR's running a butcher crank. Doesn't seen like its used here like in the DSM world.
Anyone have any experience with one in a SR?
SR crank are crazy heavy.


FFWD - Butcher Crank (http://www.ffwdconnection.com/butchercrank.html)

[codyace]

If you want to save weight, find a 4cw crank and put that in.

The butcher crank idea may work, but it just scares me. I can't bring myself to buying into the marginal beneifts that is provides, especially considering you give up reliability of the stock unit. With that said, I've never seen a stock unit bust either, and I love keeping with quality OEM stuff.

With that said, They've been around for a while too with SR's, however I can't say I've ever seen or heard of anyone trying it either (that's not to say it doesn't exist, but very uncommon at that)

[Tom N]

Why do you say the benefits are marginal?

[codyace]

Why do you say the benefits are marginal?

Sounds like your mind is made up, go have the process done. The easier, cheaper, and undoubtedly as or more reliable way, would be buying a 4 counterweight crank, from Nissan.

Atop of that, I running a light rotating assembly will pull you out of boost if your turbo is too large or you're not in the powerband. I know how much a light flywheel and clutch affects a car, I couldn't imagine another 10 lbs off the crank.

[Tom N]

Sounds like your mind is made up, go have the process done. The easier, cheaper, and undoubtedly as or more reliable way, would be buying a 4 counterweight crank, from Nissan.

Atop of that, I running a light rotating assembly will pull you out of boost if your turbo is too large or you're not in the powerband. I know how much a light flywheel and clutch affects a car, I couldn't imagine another 10 lbs off the crank.



My mind most certainly is not made up. I am asking why you say the benefits are marginal. Is there actual data behind saying the benefits are marginal or just a basic opinion?
I know the SR world is a bit behind the 4g63 world, was just hoping maybe someone has tried one and has real world experience in a SR engine. I know in a 4g63 they allow the car to rev like a crotch rocket and are definitely beneficial in racing but do make daily driving a chore. Mostly just 1st gear. At the same time the 2 butcher crank 4g63 cars I drove also had aluminum rod motors and no a/c. You had to really bring the rpms up when leaving at a light. The 4g is a completely different monster though. It's AWD and the butch crank is about 5 lbs lighter than a butcher SR crank as its several lbs lighter to start with.

I'm not worried about coming out of boost as the car runs a little 20g T2 framed turbo on a stock manifold. Not looking to go bigger on turbo. Looking for little ways to make the car faster/quicker with out going with bigger laggy turbo. There's always that fight between going fast yet staying very street friendly.

FFWD doesn't sell cranks. You send them your factory crank and the lighten ( 8 lbs removed on SR ) and knife edge it then do their Vador coating. Cost is $680 for that.

[codyace]

My mind most certainly is not made up. I am asking why you say the benefits are marginal. Is there actual data behind saying the benefits are marginal or just a basic opinion?

With anything on these cars, it's opinion. In an all out car, that is going to hang in the RPM band for short blasts, then I'd say it may be something to look into, but in the same regard I don't think anyone is activly campaigning an SR20 to that length aside from very few, and all of those guys are utilizing non streetable setups. Even the hardcore N/A guys who street drive stick with the 4 CW crank.

Sure reving like a bike is fun (i'm admittedly a fan and have played in that relm) but in the same regard it's not something IMO that is going to beneift a street driven turbo car (especialyl the potential risk)

Also, comparing a 4g63 to a SR20 is like comparing a 5.0 to a LS1.


A 20g (even on t2 flange) will run good, but it's on the verge of having enough mismatch to fall out and not keep up when taking too much weight off. I know in my personal car with the light clutch/flywheel/pulley and even the 2871r (comparable to your 20g) that if you weren't taking it to the peak everytime that you'd struggle with spots being almost out of boost (at least in track situations, I have no clue in drag race situations). I always found myself being too high in one gear or to low in the next (which I fixed with running a different final drive) with it all (as I used the shorter gears for more mechanical advantage)



looking for little ways to make the car faster/quicker with out going with bigger laggy turbo. There's always that fight between going fast yet staying very street friendly.

The lighter rotating assembly can also hurt response too, as it won't load the turbo enough to light properly, thus making it seem laggier. It really is a dual edged sword that you'll need to see potentially on your own end. Track only car? I'd consider a knifed crank, but nothing on a street car. I like reliability, and the ability to make 'some' boost in first gear haha.



FFWD doesn't sell cranks. You send them your factory crank and the lighten ( 8 lbs removed on SR ) and knife edge it then do their Vador coating. Cost is $680 for that.

I know, I guess I shoudln't have spoken so general. I trust the OEM cast without modification more than anything (or at the minimum some slight knife edging). IN that same statement I know all of the reliable power related guys run the 8cw crank as not to worry, as even the 4cw unit has been proven to eat itself in some moderate torque/boost type builds (but we could also assume some may have been building error or the sort too).

[PoorMans180SX]

Those FFWD cranks have broken before. If you really want to go all out in your SR build, you could definitely have the crank lightened and knife-edged, but FFWD takes it to the extreme, which not only is completely unnecessary, it makes the crank counterweights too light for a big steel rod. There is only so much weight you can take off and have it balance out with the rod and piston weights.

I think if I was going to go all out on the crank, I'd have it knife edged, cryo'd, and polished, then WPC treated. That's about as awesome as a factory crankshaft gets.

I've worked with a lot of DSM stuff in the past, and all the hardcore guys that make big power kinda laugh at FFWD's parts.

The SR20 world isn't behind the DSM world, it just focuses on completely different things. Nobody really cares about building a 1000hp SR20 for drag passes besides Mazworx, while everyone drools over that kind of thing in the DSM world.

And just like the DSM world where the ultimate crank is a Magnus billet, the ultimate crank for an SR is a Mazworx billet.

[Tom N]

I've been doing DSM's for over 15 years and saying the DSM crowd laughs at FFWD is stupid. They may not have the name Marco or David have for building some if the highest hp DSM's but that's never really been their thing either. Tim Zimmer who has thoroughly tested the limits of the FFWD butcher crank will flat out tell you it's awesome but wouldn't recommend it over 750 hp especially on a 100mm stroker crank Who here makes more than 750hp go ahead and raise their hand. If I was building a 1000hp monster there's no way I would consider it, but im not. i'm looking to push a 20g to the limits. People like Curt Brown do things with their cars on small turbos no one can duplicate because he takes the little stuff to the extreme most over look. If I was to say some of the stuff he does in a completely unrelated post I guarantee most here would say its stupid and a waste of time, just like the tooners crowd.

I exceeded 400hp on a 16g nearly 10 years ago by going outside the box. Like running over 10:1 compression when most everyone said that's crazy, you can't do that on a turbo car. Now look, everyone an their mother wants 10.5:1 in their 4g63 builds because some did what others laughed at and guess what, it works and works damn well.
Hell I can still remember when if you put a 20g on your little 2.0 you were crazy and were building nothing but a track monster. LOL now people are daily driving 9 sec EVO's with a/c.


Codyace I know comparing a 4g63 to a SR is like comparing a coyote to a LS that's why I made the post and didn't just apply my knowledge of how the crank works in a aluminum rod AWD 4g63 to this build. I may hold off on the butcher crank for may next up coming project that will strictly be a weekend warrior car. Can't wait to start that one, just need to get the motor rebuilt and back in on this car first.

[Tom N]

Please don't take the SR world being behind the 4g63 world personal. I am very much enjoying this SR and and considering another just for race purposes.
But yes the SR world is behind the 4g63. The amount of parts, r&d and extremely strong presence in many forms of racing over the last 20 years is no mystery.

[PoorMans180SX]

I worked for Force Engineering, who currently holds the 16G and stock-frame turbo records. I know what I'm talking about. BTW their record 1G uses a STOCK crank, it's just zero balanced. I know about the "little stuff".

I don't like the thought of weakening a critical component of your engine when building it to make MORE power.

I could care less about the SR20, I don't own one and am not a "Nissan-only" type of guy. In fact I almost had a complete 4G63 swap in my S13. I still don't see what the SR20 is behind on, every part made for a 4G has it's SR equivalent, as it has been through every form of racing the 4G has... Two of the fastest time attack cars in the world have SR's with off the shelf components in them, I'm not sure how that counts as "behind".

[Tom N]

I worked for Force Engineering, who currently holds the 16G and stock-frame turbo records. I know what I'm talking about. BTW their record 1G uses a STOCK crank, it's just zero balanced.

I don't like the thought of weakening a critical component of your engine when building it to make MORE power.

I could care less about the SR20, I don't own one and am not a "Nissan-only" type of guy. In fact I almost had a complete 4G63 swap in my S13. I still don't see what the SR20 is behind on, every part made for a 4G has it's SR equivalent, as it has been through every form of racing the 4G has... Two of the fastest time attack cars in the world have SR's with off the shelf components in them, I'm not sure how that counts as "behind".

Pretty sure the 4g63 is the dominate force in time attack.

There are simply more parts available for a 4g than a SR. At least here in the states. Just take turbos. Look at all the amazing bolt on turbos there are out there for the 4g vs the SR. I am not a fan of tubular manifolds on street cars. FP makes a awesome cast manifold upgrade for the 4g as well as 02 housings set up for external wastegates that route back into the exhaust. wheres this for the SR? Wheres the David Bushur or the Marco of the SR world making and testing all kinds of new and improved parts. There are several different dual pump drop in kits for the DSM. How many for a S13/14? Wheres the John Shepherd, TRE, Jacks, TMZ that makes bullet proof factory trans at a reasonable rate including custom made parts for them. Wheres the DSMlink for the SR?
I can go on.

[PoorMans180SX]

The 4G dominates time attack because it came with a nice awd chassis.

Garret makes turbos that bolt on to stock SR exhaust manifolds, and they don't cost $2000.

Big bolt on turbos suck anyway. They're always a compromise. And DSM dudes are lazy and just want to bolt on power.

That's nice that you're not a fan of tubulars, but they work great and never break if made right.

We don't need external gate turbo dumps because we can weld them to our manifolds.

We have bulletproof factory transmissions that either bolt up, or we just have to make adapter plates for them. Again, not thousands of dollars.

We have Nistune and now Nismotronic for our factory ECU's.

And we can usually just send out ECU's to have them setup and our MAF's will compensate for boost.

You just don't know all this stuff because you're new and haven't been around to gather all this info.

All those new and "improved" parts already exist for the SR.

And you're biased, but that's besides the point.

This whole thread has now become a mess. Butcher your crank if you want to, I just think it's a bad idea for longevity of it or your bearings.

[Tom N]

The 4G dominates time attack because it came with a nice awd chassis.

Garret makes turbos that bolt on to stock SR exhaust manifolds, and they don't cost $2000.


Thats one choice. Plenty of non 2k dollar 4g bolt ons.
This falls under I didnt say there wasnt performance parts for the SR. i said there are more choices designed specifically for the 4g.


Big bolt on turbos suck anyway. They're always a compromise. And DSM dudes are lazy and just want to bolt on power.


Didnt say "big" bolt on but I imagine what is big is a opinion. The why doesnt matter nor change the fact they exist for the 4g.


That's nice that you're not a fan of tubulars, but they work great and never break if made right.


Just to be clear I`m not a fan of them on daily driven street cars as I have seen the best of them break on daily driven cars.
We don't need external gate turbo dumps because we can weld them to our manifolds.


We have bulletproof factory transmissions that either bolt up, or we just have to make adapter plates for them. Again, not thousands of dollars.


What bullet proof SR transmission are you referring too? Please dont just tell me these things exist show me. I need a tranny that will handle 500hp with out grenading. I know I can buy a Z32 trans and have it rebuilt and them buy the adapter stuff from Mazworx and have them cut machine the bell housing then get a shifter relocator braket from this other company that will put the shifter back in the stock location cause the mazworx kit doesnt but thats not the same as sending my stock trans out for a rebuild and for less than 2k having a rebuilt tranny all new inside that will hold 500hp.


We have Nistune and now Nismotronic for our factory ECU's.


I dont know much about nistmoronic as I dont believe it works with a S14 or S15 and nistune isnt bad but it cant do what dsmlink can do and i`m pretty sure you know this so it falls under not as good.


And we can usually just send out ECU's to have them setup and our MAF's will compensate for boost.


I dont have to send my ecu out as I live by Martin ( RS Enthalpy ) and he tunes the stock S15 ecu for me. Which I am very happy with aside from not being able to run SD. His customer service is first class.


You just don't know all this stuff because you're new and haven't been around to gather all this info.


That may be true although I have done much much searching for some of these items and have yet to find them. Please enlighten me.


All those new and "improved" parts already exist for the SR.

And you're biased, but that's besides the point.

This whole thread has now become a mess. Butcher your crank if you want to, I just think it's a bad idea for longevity of it or your bearings.

All of which new and improve parts exactly?
You concerns about the bad idea for longjevity of the bearings is surely warranted. My biggest concern is it jump roping. Which is why I will wait to try one on my next SR build which wont be daily driven.

Biases would not be the correct term as I dont even have a dsm anymore. I left them a few years back and am thoroughly enjoying the SR world right now. I own and am building a SR powered S14. But there are some things I wish existed in SR world that I had in 4g world. You cant possibly deny that there are more options available when shopping for your 4g63 car vs your SR car.

I want to convert to E85. What are my options for a drop in dual pump set up on a S14?

i`m also looking for a good intake manifold thats proven to make a good powerband on my S15. Whats my options?

Next I would like a cast exhaust manifold thats opened up for better flow but keeps turbo in stock location. Whats my options? Something like the $175 one from FP.

Will without a doubt need to get a tranny that can hold more power than this stock one I already broke at a messily 300hp. I assume the Z32 swap is my only real option as I find no one who does SR tranny builds.

These are serious questions for parts I want I havent located yet.

[Tom N]

By the way a 4g63 in a S chassis would be pretty bad ass. I would think the water neck off the back the block would hit the firewall. Would definitely be cool project though.

[codyace]

Next I would like a cast exhaust manifold thats opened up for better flow but keeps turbo in stock location. Whats my options? Something like the $175 one from FP.

You keep the stocker and I weld an external gate on for you ;)



Opinion only, but the The butcher crank is 100% not needed for an SR. It's been an available option for years, no one runs it. Again Nissan makes a pre lightened crank (the 4 counter weight) and it's regarded as a do or die type type...great power N/A, ligyht, but big power hurts the bearings.

SR's are better suited to make more reliable power everywhere else. Sure the 4g game is different, but the nice thing about a 400whp SR is that you can bolt it on stock junk, and not ever worry about it. You talk about guys who have pushed SR's, and I too am the guy that years ago did the 'small is better' setup and still have the go-to setup for T2 flanged setups (400/330, torque for days, car ran mid 11's @ 120 on a road race suspension) using stock stuff and having it 'mom safe' where anyone could drive it, with a clutch that is easy, with a turbo that lights fast etc etc. I just prefer reliability and overbuilt vs the 1/10th type parts.

Don't get me wrong 4g63 cars run good, but I like making the same sort of power with 10 psi less boost and no worrys :P haha just ball bustin ya.

[Tom N]

You keep the stocker and I weld an external gate on for you ;)



Opinion only, but the The butcher crank is 100% not needed for an SR. It's been an available option for years, no one runs it. Again Nissan makes a pre lightened crank (the 4 counter weight) and it's regarded as a do or die type type...great power N/A, ligyht, but big power hurts the bearings.

SR's are better suited to make more reliable power everywhere else. Sure the 4g game is different, but the nice thing about a 400whp SR is that you can bolt it on stock junk, and not ever worry about it. You talk about guys who have pushed SR's, and I too am the guy that years ago did the 'small is better' setup and still have the go-to setup for T2 flanged setups (400/330, torque for days, car ran mid 11's @ 120 on a road race suspension) using stock stuff and having it 'mom safe' where anyone could drive it, with a clutch that is easy, with a turbo that lights fast etc etc. I just prefer reliability and overbuilt vs the 1/10th type parts.

Don't get me wrong 4g63 cars run good, but I like making the same sort of power with 10 psi less boost and no worrys :P haha just ball bustin ya.


I'm a bid fan of small framed turbos on street cars. My SR made 392/412 on the TD06sl2 20g at about 24psi with internal gate on a completely stock long block aside from injectors. External gate on the stock manifold is on the list.
It also traps 120 as a full weight S14 a/c and all on a very stiff suspension. Very fun street car to drive. Just want to get it to the upper 120's while staying very street able.

My GVR4 made 414/432 on a tdo5h 16g at 25psi. It had mild FP1 cams though. Not that they added much on that little turbo though. The 4g has a superior head design. I love the aluminum block of the SR but dislike the head design aside from the VCT. Very much like that for maintain good tq and low end power.

[PoorMans180SX]

There is a front exit water conversion for the 4G.

You could say I got power hungry.

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/544680_558490734447_43075415_n.jpg

[codyace]

I'm a bid fan of small framed turbos on street cars. My SR made 392/412 on the TD06sl2 20g at about 24psi with internal gate on a completely stock long block aside from injectors. External gate on the stock manifold is on the list.
It also traps 120 as a full weight S14 a/c and all on a very stiff suspension. Very fun street car to drive. Just want to get it to the upper 120's while staying very street able.

My GVR4 made 414/432 on a tdo5h 16g at 25psi. It had mild FP1 cams though. Not that they added much on that little turbo though. The 4g has a superior head design. I love the aluminum block of the SR but dislike the head design aside from the VCT. Very much like that for maintain good tq and low end power.

I also make the AC conversion brackets too :D

At least we're on the same page. I don't think going after the light crank is worth the hassel. I truthfull think a better compressor and more RPM will yield better results (the GTX I have makes the same power at less boost, so I know it's an easy mid 400whp turbo with 20psi before 4000 rpm.

SR's don't flow that poorly really, maybe not the same on a bench as other heads, but turbo to turbo, the SR always seems to make equal or more power with less boost. Then again big N/A guys always say that CFM isn't the end all measure of a good head.


I'm all about the last tenth for power, but in the same regard am not willing to sacrifice reliability for 5 hp. My car has thousands (literally thousands) of track miles on it with zero issues on the engine...other junk yes, but not the engine :D. That doesnt' mean I'm the resident know it all, but I like being able to go up to the Glen and dump 2 days of track time on the car and not worry about the bottom end parting itself out :D

[Tom N]

There is a front exit water conversion for the 4G.



That would sure make things easier. Have been out of the 4g world for a few years. Had a evo 1 I sold last year but it just had a stock Evo 3 engine, FMIC, tranny etc in it. It was not a race car. Always wanted to do a rwd 4g. Star/quest is a cool car but doesn't have the chassis/suspension support the S chassis does.

[Tom N]

I also make the AC conversion brackets too :D

At least we're on the same page. I don't think going after the light crank is worth the hassel. I truthfull think a better compressor and more RPM will yield better results (the GTX I have makes the same power at less boost, so I know it's an easy mid 400whp turbo with 20psi before 4000 rpm.

SR's don't flow that poorly really, maybe not the same on a bench as other heads, but turbo to turbo, the SR always seems to make equal or more power with less boost. Then again big N/A guys always say that CFM isn't the end all measure of a good head.


I'm all about the last tenth for power, but in the same regard am not willing to sacrifice reliability for 5 hp. My car has thousands (literally thousands) of track miles on it with zero issues on the engine...other junk yes, but not the engine :D. That doesnt' mean I'm the resident know it all, but I like being able to go up to the Glen and dump 2 days of track time on the car and not worry about the bottom end parting itself out :D

I already have working a/c.
I honestly don't know a lot about the SR head other than I don't like the Y rocker design. Not sure if I can rev a stock SR head to 8500 safely. I've heard over and over the head is good to around 500hp. After that you should switch to VVL head as porting out the SR head is a waste of money.
Not sure if there's much a difference between the S13 head most seen to have and a S15.

Once the new engine is back in we shall see if a little more compression, tomei poncans, external gate and some more boost can get close to 500hp.
After seeing what we get like this I'm have the turbine wheel swapped for a 9 blade and the compressor swapped with a billet 20g wheel and see what they really do.

[codyace]

The rockers are funky, but good springs, or even a solid HLA and you're set. Dual guides is 8500 safe with even just springs. I run my DE to 8000 without issue on JWT cams.

Have fun building! Just keep it safe. I know I hate working on stuff so I don't push the barrier much.