TOMEI PON CAMS, APEXI PFC, T25 13psi boost

[Dboyizmlg]

Current set up:
-3inch full exhaust
-fmi
-walbro f pump
-hks actuator (set at 10psi)

I want to add tomei pon cams, and apex pfc tuned to 13psi.
My question is what would I expect with adding cams and PFC, tuned to 13psi?
What kind of numbers on the dyno to expect. Also, if it is a noticible improvement with the small t25 turbo.

[240boi115]

the car will feel more in tune and responsive(enginewise). tuned right your looking at least a 15-20 hp increase...at 13psi youre coming close to the t25's limits before choking.

[Mikester]

^^True...

Don't worry about cams till you get a bigger... All adding cams will do is shrink your power band.

HOWEVER, add the PFC, injectors, a good EBC and dyno tune and you can make 280rwhp with the T25 (experience talking) & surprise a lot of people!

[Dboyizmlg]

the car will feel more in tune and responsive(enginewise). tuned right your looking at least a 15-20 hp increase...at 13psi youre coming close to the t25's limits before choking.

Would it be wise to upgrade cams with that tune set up,I'm aiming at 270whp with the t25.
Or would it be better to put cams in once I upgrade to bigger turbo?

[Dboyizmlg]

^^True...

Don't worry about cams till you get a bigger... All adding cams will do is shrink your power band.

HOWEVER, add the PFC, injectors, a good EBC and dyno tune and you can make 280rwhp with the T25 (experience talking) & surprise a lot of people!

Thank you for the helpful input!
That's exactly what I was looking for!

As I have plans soon, for PFC, 550cc inj, z32 maf, tuned to 13 psi.

[AdamR]

Thank you for the helpful input!
That's exactly what I was looking for!

As I have plans soon, for PFC, 550cc inj, z32 maf, tuned to 13 psi.

Why a PFC?

[KoukiMonsta]

Why a PFC?

Curious what you suggest?

ROM such as enthalpy or jwt?

Good options in my book, go browse the gt2871r thread for some great info. Lots of knowledgable guys.

[Kingtal0n]

Current set up:
-3inch full exhaust
-fmi
-walbro f pump
-hks actuator (set at 10psi)

I want to add tomei pon cams, and apex pfc tuned to 13psi.
My question is what would I expect with adding cams and PFC, tuned to 13psi?
What kind of numbers on the dyno to expect. Also, if it is a noticible improvement with the small t25 turbo.

I think you should stick to the OEM exhaust. OEM nissan silvia S15 have the same OEM exhaust as S14 KA24DE 240sx, I have measured it and used it on my car before. its identical.
And those S15 sr20det can produce 280rwhp NO problem.

I would also keep the boost to around 10psi no higher.
You will find that most T-25 will not even hold 13psi to redline on most engines. When they are brand new, sometimes. But most of them are old and a bit worn out.
The most I would expect from that setup is around 250rwhp. I have rarely seen a T-25 produce more than that.

[AdamR]

Curious what you suggest?

ROM such as enthalpy or jwt?

Good options in my book, go browse the gt2871r thread for some great info. Lots of knowledgable guys.

I wouldn't use any of the above, but how much is a PFC? I wouldn't do anything but a full standalone.

[jr_ss]

I wouldn't use any of the above, but how much is a PFC? I wouldn't do anything but a full standalone.

That's a bit overkill for the extent of his mods... He pretty much has BPU's why get rid of the OEM driveability a factory tuned ECU offers over a full EMS?

[Kingtal0n]

I wouldn't use any of the above, but how much is a PFC? I wouldn't do anything but a full standalone.

A power FC is a full stand alone. Its missing a few bells and whistles but Ive tuned a 500 horsepower AWD R34 GT-R Skyline 2002 and a 650RWHP RB26 in an S13 both with power FC- no issues.
They start and drive like stock. cant complain. Want to see the dynos?

Ah, I agree, do not use the PFC if you are not changing injectors / maf sensor. Keep it simple. but fwiw you can have oem drivability on a PFC just sayin'

[AdamR]

A power FC is a full stand alone. Its missing a few bells and whistles but Ive tuned a 500 horsepower AWD R34 GT-R Skyline 2002 and a 650RWHP RB26 in an S13 both with power FC- no issues.
They start and drive like stock. cant complain. Want to see the dynos?

Ah, I agree, do not use the PFC if you are not changing injectors / maf sensor. Keep it simple. but fwiw you can have oem drivability on a PFC just sayin'


You can tune a car with anything, I don't really care what you claimed to have done.
Paying as much for ancient tech with a small feature list as you would for a modern standalone with more features than rev limit, fuel and timing is silly.

[Mikester]

Paying as much for ancient tech with a small feature list as you would for a modern standalone with more features than rev limit, fuel and timing is silly.

True, but there are also the factors of 'who tunes with what' in a particular area and what really matters to the individual. Ancient to you young guys may just be considered 'familiar' to us oldies lol

[Croustibat]

For that kind of mods i'd just get a nistune board and someone to tune it tbh. PFC or cams are overkill for a T25 (even a t28) . Not sure you can get 280WHP with a T25 and standard injectors though. Turbo wont last long. Even a T28 would be quite out of puff...

[Mikester]

For that kind of mods i'd just get a nistune board and someone to tune it tbh. PFC or cams are overkill for a T25 (even a t28) . Not sure you can get 280WHP with a T25 and standard injectors though. Turbo wont last long. Even a T28 would be quite out of puff...

I know 280 @1.15bar w/T25 sounds like a pretty bold claim... but I assure you, my car did it- scout's honor... only pushed it that hard on the dyno & while drag racing Sunday nights... DD'd at 'normal boost' the rest of the time and never had a problem... I have been searching high and low for my old dyno sheet.

[Tom N]

I know 280 @1.15bar w/T25 sounds like a pretty bold claim... but I assure you, my car did it- scout's honor... only pushed it that hard on the dyno & while drag racing Sunday nights... DD'd at 'normal boost' the rest of the time and never had a problem... I have been searching high and low for my old dyno sheet.

What kind of ET and MPH in the 1/4 did you do at 280hp?

[Kingtal0n]

You can tune a car with anything, I don't really care what you claimed to have done.
Paying as much for ancient tech with a small feature list as you would for a modern standalone with more features than rev limit, fuel and timing is silly.

whoa. a pfc is like $750 brand new. And $500 used usually. a $500 stand alone to run a 500+ horsepower vehicle is pretty damn nice.

[Kingtal0n]

For that kind of mods i'd just get a nistune board and someone to tune it tbh. PFC or cams are overkill for a T25 (even a t28) . Not sure you can get 280WHP with a T25 and standard injectors though. Turbo wont last long. Even a T28 would be quite out of puff...

good
Most ive seen a 50k miles T-25 put out is around 230rwhp. Most ive seen a 50k T-28 put out is around 280rwhp. Ive seen an S15 turbo on a 15k motor do 300rwhp.
And thats also true about the injectors, 370cc/min will not cut it unless you really jack up the fuel pressure.

[AdamR]

whoa. a pfc is like $750 brand new. And $500 used usually. a $500 stand alone to run a 500+ horsepower vehicle is pretty damn nice.

Just saying, ever for that price there is much better available.
2011 AMSOIL Engine Masters Challenge Xtreme Street Division Wednesday Updates - Engine Masters Magazine (http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/1110em_2011_amsoil_engine_masters_challenge_xtreme _street_division_wednesday_updates/#ixzz1aVltiydD)

[Mikester]

Did it with 850's, Z32MAFS etc etc. tuned by Yoshi at Odotec in Okinawa. Still searching for the sheet.

[Kingtal0n]

Did it with 850's, Z32MAFS etc etc. tuned by Yoshi at Odotec in Okinawa. Still searching for the sheet.

not a dynojet right? Different dynos all read different. I had a car do 250rwhp on one dyno and 302rwhp on the next. To keep numbers matching go by trap speeds. What did it trap? 104?

[Mikester]

^^Honestly couldn't tell you- In Okinawa, there was no 'real' quarter mile to speak of. Hit up FlipRayzin240sx... He was there while I was... Pretty sure he may have seen the sheet back in the day.

Like I said, absolutely bold claim; but I'm being 100% honest. The power curve looked funky as the boost started to fall off around 5,500-6,000rpm due to the T25 choking on itself... but it made 280 nonetheless. I will find that sheet & post it for sure.

[Tom N]

^^Honestly couldn't tell you- In Okinawa, there was no 'real' quarter mile to speak of. Hit up FlipRayzin240sx... He was there while I was... Pretty sure he may have seen the sheet back in the day.

Like I said, absolutely bold claim; but I'm being 100% honest. The power curve looked funky as the boost started to fall off around 5,500-6,000rpm due to the T25 choking on itself... but it made 280 nonetheless. I will find that sheet & post it for sure.


Pretty sure what he is getting at is it making 280 hp on a dyno means nothing with out 1/4 mile mph to back it up. There are tons of high reading money making dynos out there. I have seen cars loose 50+ hp going from one dyno to another and the other way around.

[Mikester]

I understand what he was saying... But there was only one dyno in Okinawa that most of us knew of; I have no idea what type it is b/c I don't read Japanese lol; and no quarter mile to get an accurate trap speed. What I DO know is that a lot of people were genuinely surprised when they realized I was still rocking a stock T25 at the time & keeping up.

[Tom N]

Why posting dyno numbers with no real worlds track times is meaningless.

AMS Performance Dyno Parameter Manipulation Overview - YouTube (http://youtu.be/sDwjfZvmPHg)

[Kingtal0n]

GT25r compressor map (http://www.atpturbo.com/root/maps/gt25r.htm)

This isnt the actual T-25 map but from what I know its pretty close.

The compressor map tells us something. it says here, 25lb/min of airflow is around the maximum potential of the compressor. You can look up Garret GT2554 also and its close to the same. Even if the compressor supports 27lb/min or 28lb/min you are still looking at Brake Horsepower potential, or close to it (must factor out rotating mass of rotating assembly of course).

So Real world Real Rear Wheel Horsepower Potential is an authentic 230~ horsepower on a good day with 8%-12% drivetrain losses. Now, I've seen a dynojet graph of a T-25 putting down slightly more. What does this mean?

Well, consider compressors do not flow MASS of air. They flow a VOLUME. SO when the compressor map says, 25lbs/minute, what its really saying is they have taken a given cubic feet / minute of airflow (or some other volume / unit time) and converted it to mass of air / unit time for the sake of showing us a potential horsepower number. The truth and the light at the end of the tunnel is that as you adjust ambient air temperature (and compressor outlet temperature) The mass of air being moved by the turbocharger will vary. Which means you can squeeze more and more horsepower out of a "maxed" compressor simply be reducing the compressor outlet temperature.

Put another way, we could probably squeeze 300 horsepower out of a T-25 with the right inlet temperature at any boost pressure.
And, to expand this line of thought, engines also flow a volume of air. So colder air = more horsepower even from naturally aspirated engines. But we all knew that... right?

[b.series]

Bro get the power FC, but get the d-jetro model. Its more accurate, and if anything happens to the piping between the turbo and the intake you can still drive the car home.
Cams is also a great addition, i changed my exhaust cam to a tomei pon cam and the no longer eats crap after 6000. I am boosting at 1 bar (14 psi) stock s13 turbine. cams will change the whole engines feel.

i recommend getting the power FC D-Jetro first, then injectors probably 550s

once that is taken care of then look into cams, springs and retainers, head gasket, and head studs

[Croustibat]

Bro get the power FC, but get the d-jetro model. Its more accurate, and if anything happens to the piping between the turbo and the intake you can still drive the car home.
Cams is also a great addition, i changed my exhaust cam to a tomei pon cam and the no longer eats crap after 6000. I am boosting at 1 bar (14 psi) stock s13 turbine. cams will change the whole engines feel.

i recommend getting the power FC D-Jetro first, then injectors probably 550s

once that is taken care of then look into cams, springs and retainers, head gasket, and head studs

That is retardedly overkill ... a rom tune, an S14 turbo, injectors, an intercooler and he will surely get more power and be more reliable than what you have now, for at most a quarter of the price...

No one needs cams, springs or retainers for that turbo (hell you dont need any of these until you are aiming for more than 400HP, and at that time the problem is called gearbox)

[Kingtal0n]

After years of experience Ive learned that when it comes to street cars, daily drivers, you would really prefer to use the OEM valvesprings if possible. This is to keep valvetrain wear to a minimum. Kind of the same idea behind keeping engine RPM below 3500 during a cruise, less wear and tear. I learned these lessons from big displacement V8 engines where solid roller camshafts are popular and proper spring choice is king.

That said, a set of camshafts designed for oem springs, such as JWT S3, are perfect for 350-400 horsepower SR20DET engines. Tomei used to make a set that would work on OEM springs in the 26X duration, but iirc they stopped. The OEM Sr20 camshafts will stop you around 320 rwhp at 18-20psi most of the time.

Power FC D-jetro should be used when SR20DET engines are making over 400 horsepower, OR when you simply wish to delete the MAF sensor. an L-jetro PFC is very easy to tune, compared to the D-jetro map version. Easy enough for a beginner in my opinion, if you have a decent computer background.

[Dboyizmlg]

Lol, I've decided that it would just be much better to do all at once!
Going to build the head first with upgrade valve train, cams, head gasket.

Then....
Gt2871r
740cc inj
Apexi pfc
And done!

Figure that the old, high mileage t25 turbo will only give me a little more power (maybe 260whp if I'm lucky). So It would be much wiser if I just do it all at once. No need for headaches and waste of money purchasing injectors, and tuning twice.

DO IT ONCE AND BE DONE!

[Dboyizmlg]

That is retardedly overkill ... a rom tune, an S14 turbo, injectors, an intercooler and he will surely get more power and be more reliable than what you have now, for at most a quarter of the price...

No one needs cams, springs or retainers for that turbo (hell you dont need any of these until you are aiming for more than 400HP, and at that time the problem is called gearbox)

I agree with you bro.

[steve shadows]

Power FC D-jetro should be used when SR20DET engines are making over 400 horsepower, OR when you simply wish to delete the MAF sensor. an L-jetro PFC is very easy to tune, compared to the D-jetro map version. Easy enough for a beginner in my opinion, if you have a decent computer background.

Wait what?

PFC should be used anytime you want to tune the map on the car.

Even the factory ignition map is far too advanced for US pump gas and the afrs go very lean if all you have is a walbro and turn up the boost on a stock turbo.

Have to say I don't agree with you here.

If you're going for 300-400 whp I think the PFC is the way to go, L Jetro with Z32 MAF, used if you can find one that has been tested (for around 500-600 bucks).

If you're going for 400-600 whp then I suggest the Haltech system.

:2c:

[Kingtal0n]

Wait what?

PFC should be used anytime you want to tune the map on the car.

Even the factory ignition map is far too advanced for US pump gas and the afrs go very lean if all you have is a walbro and turn up the boost on a stock turbo.

Have to say I don't agree with you here.

If you're going for 300-400 whp I think the PFC is the way to go, L Jetro with Z32 MAF, used if you can find one that has been tested (for around 500-600 bucks).

If you're going for 400-600 whp then I suggest the Haltech system.

:2c:

You misunderstood me too? What part? because I dont understand what you are saying. You dont agree with what part of what I said? be very specific.

And before you answer, let me be very specific.
Power FC L-jetro should be used on cars under 400 horsepower unless you wish to delete the maf sensor. WHY? Because the maf is an easy simple tuning device and there is no reason not to use a Z32 maf on a < 400 horsepower sr20.

power FC D-jetro should be used when you wish to delete the maf, or you are going to exceed it to some extent. Anything over 400 generally but you can do 500bhp with a Z32 if you know what you are doing. I dont care if the maf has a max; you can tune beyond the max if you are careful. Same with a map sensor, you can tune a 2bar map (up to 15psi) at 20psi because your last line will be your max boost, whatever it is.

So what part is in disagreement?

[Kingtal0n]

Wait what?

Even the factory ignition map is far too advanced for US pump gas and the afrs go very lean if all you have is a walbro and turn up the boost on a stock turbo.




I always thought the factory ignition maps are actually somewhat conservative.

[Croustibat]

Or he could get a new nistune for half the price of a PFC. But he wont be able to use it if he does not have AFR & EGT sensors and know how to map ... so in the end his best chance is to find a tuner who will do the job and ask him what he needs for that.

BTW you still dont need an upgraded valvetrain for 400HP, just slap a gt2871r on it and you got them. Better use that money for a new gearbox and a torsen or a real LSD. If you want to rev high and then put a gt3076r with an A/R >0.86, then yes by all mean put some cams and upgraded valvetrain ... but that is 500+HP territory. With a gt2871r and a 400HP goal, it is just throwing money down the drain.

[Kingtal0n]

Or he could get a new nistune for half the price of a PFC. But he wont be able to use it if he does not have AFR & EGT sensors and know how to map ... so in the end his best chance is to find a tuner who will do the job and ask him what he needs for that.

BTW you still dont need an upgraded valvetrain for 400HP, just slap a gt2871r on it and you got them. Better use that money for a new gearbox and a torsen or a real LSD. If you want to rev high and then put a gt3076r with an A/R >0.86, then yes by all mean put some cams and upgraded valvetrain ... but that is 500+HP territory. With a gt2871r and a 400HP goal, it is just throwing money down the drain.

Dear crusti:

There are no 2871 sr20s with stock camshafts making 400.
What is this now, misinformation central? Look out everybody, stock S15 sr20's cant handle 15psi of boost and stock camshaft 2871 sr20's can make 400rwhp.

dubble yew tee eff guise
sorry if i messed up your brain

[Magnoliarichj]

pfc djetro!why waste time with an ugly maf setup... and you can run bov to atmosphere instantly!
fuel pump injectors exhaust FTW

[Magnoliarichj]

oh and talk to steve shadows.

[1nasty240sx]

Get nismotronic you will not regret it for $550 NismoTronic (http://www.nismotronic.com/)
Currently running this program and very happy with it currently making 310/300 on a s15 turbo @17psi