350z vs Toyota 86.Hype or True Market Value?

[180sxmaniac]

Is the FRS overpriced? If the FRS was released back in 2003 how would it compare in sales with the 350z? I personally think the FRS would've sold a ton back in 03 seeing how the economy was a lot better than it is now? Even with that I still think the 350z is a better bang for the buck car. I've driven both cars extensively and the FRS is pretty much the newer 180sx. It's very tight and small inside,extremely light,not a lot of options/accessories very much a true driver's car.The Z is heavier but has the power and torque to get sideways quickly and can still haul some ass in a straight line. For what its worth I think the 350z limited slip is slightly better than the toyota lsd. So question is if both cars were released in 03 and if you had the money to purchase either one,which would you get?If it was me I'd get the FRS just because its so LIGHT and it reminds me too much of a 180sx.

[EDacIouSX]

economy isn't everything, its also trend. at times people want more luxury cars, other times people want more sports cars.

[Matthew Murphy]

I dd a 350z and have driven an frs multiple times (thought about getting one) and have to say I prefer the z, the frs isn't quite quick enough for my taste, also the clutch and shifter just don't feel right to me. None the less it is a great car and I love the way the suspension feels.

[simmode1]

So question is if both cars were released in 03 and if you had the money to purchase either one,which would you get?
I'd get whichever one came with a factory turbo bolted onto it.

Cough Genesis Coupe cough used 335i cough cough

[driftsucky]

Z. Only cuz I'm a nissan guy. Love the FR-S though. And, for what I use my G for, it'd fit the bill. Matter fact, sans my Maxima and Sentra, every Nissan I've owned has done the same thing. Soooo...yeah. Still the Z. Loved'em then and love'em now

[feito]

Why do u have to put it against the 350 when its succesor, the 370, is currently on the market? Has the z's price gone up so much? Anyway, i havent driven either one, but being a 240 enthusiast i would say i'd go with frs because of its size, shape n promised better handling.

[mewantkouki]

FR-S is dogshit slow. Maybe if it came with 100 more hp it would be fun.

[BossHogg]

FR-S is dogshit slow. Maybe if it came with 100 more hp it would be fun.

Funny the scion FRS has a 1 second quicker stock 1/4 mile time than the 240sx did when it came out. I haven't looked up the handling numbers but I'm sure the FRS blows the 240 out of the water on those to. AND yet the 240 was still a fun car for it's time, so I'm sure the FRS is plenty of fun. Anyone buying a stock 350, 370 or FRS wanting it to be "fast" will be disappointed. None of them are fast. If you want fast and import in the same sentence, you either bought a 80+ thousand dollar car or you plan on modifications in your head before you even purchase.

[Cheesy Doriftos]

the fr-s looks better than the 350z :)

[180sxmaniac]

Why do u have to put it against the 350 when its succesor, the 370, is currently on the market? Has the z's price gone up so much? Anyway, i havent driven either one, but being a 240 enthusiast i would say i'd go with frs because of its size, shape n promised better handling.

I put it against the 350z because they're more common at the track and on the street than the 370z.Both Z overpower the frs but the 370z is way out of the Frs league when you look at performance and price.

[180sxmaniac]

FR-S is dogshit slow. Maybe if it came with 100 more hp it would be fun.

Have you driven it yet?

[180sxmaniac]

I'd get whichever one came with a factory turbo bolted onto it.

Cough Genesis Coupe cough used 335i cough cough

Yea but 335i is unreliable many issues with blown motors/turbos before 60k miles not to mention finding a 6speed manual is dam near impossible and BMW is making their cars luxurious more so than sporty. Genesis Coupe has few flaws if any,weight is a problem particularly on the 2.0 turbo, if the genesis coupe managed to get the weight under 2900 pounds the FRS wouldn't have a chance.

[180sxmaniac]

Funny the scion FRS has a 1 second quicker stock 1/4 mile time than the 240sx did when it came out. I haven't looked up the handling numbers but I'm sure the FRS blows the 240 out of the water on those to. AND yet the 240 was still a fun car for it's time, so I'm sure the FRS is plenty of fun. Anyone buying a stock 350, 370 or FRS wanting it to be "fast" will be disappointed. None of them are fast. If you want fast and import in the same sentence, you either bought a 80+ thousand dollar car or you plan on modifications in your head before you even purchase.

I think the FRS would give a stock SR20 on 7pounds boost a run for its money in the quarter mile

[simmode1]

Yea but 335i is unreliable many issues with blown motors/turbos before 60k miles not to mention finding a 6speed manual is dam near impossible and BMW is making their cars luxurious more so than sporty. Genesis Coupe has few flaws if any,weight is a problem particularly on the 2.0 turbo, if the genesis coupe managed to get the weight under 2900 pounds the FRS wouldn't have a chance.
Yeah, the 335i isn't perfect but just like the 350Z's oil consumption & bad transmission synchro issues, the concern over reliability is vastly over blown & exaggerated by a few ppl on forums propagating the issue. I know because I talk to BMW customers all day everyday and most of them have no problems at all. But of course you're going to run into problems if shit isn't getting modified or maintained properly. The only real problem was the HPFP, which is now covered by recall and fixed in later models.

The 335I and Genesis coupe don't need a diet when they can just increase the boost. Both weigh about the same as an MKIV Supra... Is the FRS inherently superior to that car too? Used 335i's or GC's utterly curb stomps the FRS in any sort of performance test on both the street and the track, while reaching higher power potential easier as well.

I swear... all these ppl ranting about lightweight this and lightweight that need to put this shit in perspective. These are the same ppl who think the S-chassis actually has any kind of advantage over a Z32TT over than its dirt cheap price.

God I hate how hyped the FRS is. But if it was turbo'd with 5x114.3 lug pattern at the same price point, I'd be singing a different tune.

[180sxmaniac]

Yeah, the 335i isn't perfect but just like the 350Z's oil consumption & bad transmission synchro issues, the concern over reliability is vastly over blown & exaggerated by a few ppl on forums propagating the issue. I know because I talk to BMW customers all day everyday and most of them have no problems at all. But of course you're going to run into problems if shit isn't getting modified or maintained properly. The only real problem was the HPFP, which is now covered by recall and fixed in later models.

The 335I and Genesis coupe don't need a diet when they can just increase the boost. Both weigh about the same as an MKIV Supra... Is the FRS inherently superior to that car too? Used 335i's or GC's utterly curb stomps the FRS in any sort of performance test on both the street and the track, while reaching higher power potential easier as well.

I swear... all these ppl ranting about lightweight this and lightweight that need to put this shit in perspective. These are the same ppl who think the S-chassis actually has any kind of advantage over a Z32TT over than its dirt cheap price.

God I hate how hyped the FRS is. But if it was turbo'd with 5x114.3 lug pattern at the same price point, I'd be singing a different tune.


I don't know what your credentials are regarding BMW's but I love Bimmers as well as japanese cars so much to the point that I have a bimmer, subaru, mitsubishi tattoo. Not only that but i've been selling cars for about 3 years now.Worked at a huge bimmer dealership for 2 years now i'm at scion. i can personally vouch for myself when I say that not only do bimmers breakdown frequently,(probably because they're over engineered) but the most common car in the service bay by far was the 335i,in particular blown turbos, and tranny rebuilds all the time.Why you ask? Because BMW stopped making sport cars and they started making luxury cars. Yet people still for the most part(daily drive the 335i and thrash it) and the fact that they come dam near automatic only, doesn't help the 335i's case.

Japan is the only country that makes sport cars if you ask me(corvette,porsche 911 are the exception),its not all about power its about the total ride. yea 335i and gcoupe weigh as much as the supra and guess what I haven't seen anyone in rally,or drift using a supra(Manubu Orido did use a supra for drift but quickly moved into an FRS).You might be lucky to find a few supra's at a time attack drift even in Japan.

If cars didn't need diets they wouldn't strip them for motorsports right?. If all a heavy factory turbo car had to do is boost up to get an advantage over smaller lighter cars, cars like the GTR would dominate cars like the rx7,s2k,s15,nsx on the touge right? Wrong!

[katzberg]

I do have my own preferences.http://fblm.info/5.jpg
http://fblm.info/17.jpghttp://fblm.info/18.jpghttp://fblm.info/19.jpghttp://fblm.info/20.jpg

[DJ 21o3]

give it a couple years for subaru to release a factory turbo option...i will still be driving my s14 but wouldnt mind a lowered BRZ for a daily driver.

[mewantkouki]

Funny the scion FRS has a 1 second quicker stock 1/4 mile time than the 240sx did when it came out. I haven't looked up the handling numbers but I'm sure the FRS blows the 240 out of the water on those to. AND yet the 240 was still a fun car for it's time, so I'm sure the FRS is plenty of fun. Anyone buying a stock 350, 370 or FRS wanting it to be "fast" will be disappointed. None of them are fast. If you want fast and import in the same sentence, you either bought a 80+ thousand dollar car or you plan on modifications in your head before you even purchase.

1. I own an 08 Z.
2. I've owned several 350-400whp s-chassis cars. (SR and Ka) I thought they were pretty fast...
3. 90% of people that own a s-chassis car swap or upgrade the existing engine so the apples to oranges comparison is irrelevant.
4. I never said an FR-S wasn't fun. I paid 17k for my Z two years ago with 11k miles on it. (Yes I realize that was an incredible deal at the time) but these cars can still be had with under 30k on them for 18-20 grand and yes they perform just as well if not better than an FR-S.
5. Realistically speaking, how many people are going to buy a 2013-2014 frs, void the warranty by modifying it? Not to mention by the time you dump 7 grand into an FR-S turbocharging it you could have bought a 350 or 370z that's not that much slower and an overall nicer car. Sit in an FR-S and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

That said I actually like the concept of the FR-S, I just don't think it's worth 25 grand or anywhere near comparable to a Z in stock form by any stretch of the imagination.

[TwinZ]

Z for sure. I've had 3 350z's and the one I have now is twin turbo'd. The VQ motor is hard to beat. And easy to make a few extra horsepower with simple bolt on's. Plus nissan runs in my blood :)

[simmode1]

I don't know what your credentials are regarding BMW's but I love Bimmers as well as japanese cars so much to the point that I have a bimmer, subaru, mitsubishi tattoo. Not only that but i've been selling cars for about 3 years now.Worked at a huge bimmer dealership for 2 years now i'm at scion. i can personally vouch for myself when I say that not only do bimmers breakdown frequently,(probably because they're over engineered) but the most common car in the service bay by far was the 335i,in particular blown turbos, and tranny rebuilds all the time.Why you ask? Because BMW stopped making sport cars and they started making luxury cars. Yet people still for the most part(daily drive the 335i and thrash it) and the fact that they come dam near automatic only, doesn't help the 335i's case.

Japan is the only country that makes sport cars if you ask me(corvette,porsche 911 are the exception),its not all about power its about the total ride. yea 335i and gcoupe weigh as much as the supra and guess what I haven't seen anyone in rally,or drift using a supra(Manubu Orido did use a supra for drift but quickly moved into an FRS).You might be lucky to find a few supra's at a time attack drift even in Japan.

If cars didn't need diets they wouldn't strip them for motorsports right?. If all a heavy factory turbo car had to do is boost up to get an advantage over smaller lighter cars, cars like the GTR would dominate cars like the rx7,s2k,s15,nsx on the touge right? Wrong!
I work for BMW Assist which run the Telematics system in every equipped BMW. So almost every BMW that needs servicing, roadside assistance or whatever comes through us before they get to you. Don't get me wrong: I certainly seen all the problems you're referencing. But in comparison to how many of these cars are on the road, the amount with failures shouldn't weigh any heavier than those considering buying 350Z's/G35's with their issues too. The situation just isn't that grave. Especially since they did the HPFP recall and switched to the single turbo setup. Mechanics often see the worst of the worst on a frequent basis, which lends to them being jaded. Doesn't mean that's the average owner's experience. I'll admit, it was pretty bad when they first launched, but most of those older cars should have either been fixed already or off the road. BMW Assist certainly started getting significantly less calls about the HPFP or other big problems probably around 2009 or 2010.

As for cars needing to be lightweight, sure, that's helpful for motorsport. But on street cars in this scenario? Pointless. Hell, gut an FRS, GC, 335I or Z and run them around a track and I bet you'll still have the same result: You'll have a great time enjoying the driving feel of the FRS as you cross the finish line in last place.

Oh yeah, and the GTR DOES dominate all those cars.
5b5r_FtqEZU

[Ghosty]

Honestly speaking, I'm not a huge fan of Z's. Don't get me wrong, they're great cars, but I don't feel like they're as fun as the FR-S/BRZ stock for stock. Something about a lightweight, RWD car just seems like the perfect combination in my mind. That being said, I'd take a BRZ over a Z any day. Heck, I'd take an S-chassis over a Z too...

[STR8 H8N]

3.5 L VQ35DE V6 287 bhp 274 lb·ft --------------- $29,000

VS

200 hp and 151 lb·ft 2.0 L BOXER Toyota-Subaru D-4S ---------------------- $24,000

[mewantkouki]

What about the vq35hr? People like to pretend that 2007-2008 didn't happen. lol Pretty noticeable difference to a DE car and the price didn't change.

[STR8 H8N]

3.5 L VQ35DE V6 287 bhp 274 lb·ft --------------- $29,000

VS

200 hp and 151 lb·ft 2.0 L BOXER Toyota-Subaru D-4S ---------------------- $24,000

VS

3.7L VQ37VHR V6 337 PS 332 hp 269 lb·ft ---------------- $34,000

VS

3.5 L VQ35HR V6 306 bhp 268 lb·ft ------------------ $27,000

[REVGASM]

I owned a 370z for about a year and a half. Did basic mods. Exhaust, wheels, coilovers, adjustable arms, corner balancing etc. The car is practically impossible to enjoy with the stability features. I pulled a wheel sensor to pretty much which in turn deactivated the abs, abls and vdc. For some reason the car just has this lack of connectivity with the driver, even heal toe rev matching felt sooooooooo wrong.

I drove my buddies FRS for 10 minutes and fell in love with the thing. Simple and plain I traded in my 370z for a new BRZ.

Now, i'm not saying which car is better. All i can say is the BRZ puts a bigger smile on my face. The only way i can describe the car is, it feels like a mix between my Integra Type R and Honda S2000. The car's chassis is extremely balanced, and even with garbage tires its capable of utilizing them, the car does not DRIFT easily, i drive it forcefully and i guess thats what gives me pleasure. The stock diff feels much more capable than the Nissans, all tho i do plan on going 2 way in the near future.

AS FOR POWER. IT'S SLOW AS FUCK. SLOW SLOW SLOW. All tho its slow, once again, its EXTREMELY FUN AS FUCK TO DRIVE. With that being said, i'm sure i'll be super charging the car as well.

Lastly, i can fit 4 wheels with tires in the car with tool box and jack. Snow boards fit no problema as well. So over all on a daily basis this car rocks FOR ME.

anyways.
The car currently has Stance coilovers with swift springs, stance rear lower control arms, stance subframe collars, 17x9 work rszr with 215/45/17, berk technology test pipe and race pipe.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/564597_569592693073973_859726144_n.jpg
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/62594_569592736407302_2045208056_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/15056_585501728135275_791320649_n.jpg
Risky D Twins
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/557948_578779358806578_1233287884_n.jpg
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/483447_239925612814569_330878119_n.jpg

My Z.
http://instagram.com/p/W0nEMBLxsW/

[AdamR]

Funny the scion FRS has a 1 second quicker stock 1/4 mile time than the 240sx did when it came out. I haven't looked up the handling numbers but I'm sure the FRS blows the 240 out of the water on those to. AND yet the 240 was still a fun car for it's time, so I'm sure the FRS is plenty of fun. Anyone buying a stock 350, 370 or FRS wanting it to be "fast" will be disappointed. None of them are fast. If you want fast and import in the same sentence, you either bought a 80+ thousand dollar car or you plan on modifications in your head before you even purchase.

Yeah but that was the 90s, when supercars had 400hp.

[2.5T_/<ouki]

I'd get whichever one came with a factory turbo bolted onto it.

Cough Genesis Coupe cough used 335i cough cough

EXACTLY! This is the very reason why my S14 is up for sale ;)
Genesis here i come !

[mewantkouki]

350z =/= 370z

Yes 370z is newer and slightly faster than the latest model 350z but it also suffers from a ton of issues the later 350Z didn't have. The A/C condenser and Radiator are attached making it near impossible to put an aftermarket radiator in that thing. Suffers from heat soak on the track, shitty VDC, brake fade etc.

350z touring model is the only one that is plagued by VDC and brake fade due to pad knockback. I love my 08 enthusiast 350Z. No VDC no problems TCS is turned off with a button. Car is extremely predictable and planted on the road. Not even an ounce of understeer. the only thing I have modified on it was 18X9.5 10.5 wedsport wheels, SPL differential bushings and a shift knob. It drives just as nice, sure footed, and predictable as my s14 with full suspension. (Not shitty ebay stuff either.) I had kw clubsports, spl arms, and just about every brace known to man.

[180sxmaniac]

Honestly speaking, I'm not a huge fan of Z's. Don't get me wrong, they're great cars, but I don't feel like they're as fun as the FR-S/BRZ stock for stock. Something about a lightweight, RWD car just seems like the perfect combination in my mind. That being said, I'd take a BRZ over a Z any day. Heck, I'd take an S-chassis over a Z too...

SChassis over a Z? Idk bout that,an S15 Forsure otherwise I'd take a Z33

[180sxmaniac]

I owned a 370z for about a year and a half. Did basic mods. Exhaust, wheels, coilovers, adjustable arms, corner balancing etc. The car is practically impossible to enjoy with the stability features. I pulled a wheel sensor to pretty much which in turn deactivated the abs, abls and vdc. For some reason the car just has this lack of connectivity with the driver, even heal toe rev matching felt sooooooooo wrong.

I drove my buddies FRS for 10 minutes and fell in love with the thing. Simple and plain I traded in my 370z for a new BRZ.

Now, i'm not saying which car is better. All i can say is the BRZ puts a bigger smile on my face. The only way i can describe the car is, it feels like a mix between my Integra Type R and Honda S2000. The car's chassis is extremely balanced, and even with garbage tires its capable of utilizing them, the car does not DRIFT easily, i drive it forcefully and i guess thats what gives me pleasure. The stock diff feels much more capable than the Nissans, all tho i do plan on going 2 way in the near future.

AS FOR POWER. IT'S SLOW AS FUCK. SLOW SLOW SLOW. All tho its slow, once again, its EXTREMELY FUN AS FUCK TO DRIVE. With that being said, i'm sure i'll be super charging the car as well.

Lastly, i can fit 4 wheels with tires in the car with tool box and jack. Snow boards fit no problema as well. So over all on a daily basis this car rocks FOR ME.

anyways.
The car currently has Stance coilovers with swift springs, stance rear lower control arms, stance subframe collars, 17x9 work rszr with 215/45/17, berk technology test pipe and race pipe.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/564597_569592693073973_859726144_n.jpg
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/62594_569592736407302_2045208056_n.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/15056_585501728135275_791320649_n.jpg
Risky D Twins
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/557948_578779358806578_1233287884_n.jpg
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/483447_239925612814569_330878119_n.jpg

My Z.
Photo by revgasm_josh &bull; Instagram (http://instagram.com/p/W0nEMBLxsW/)



My buddy here on zilvia sold carmax his z34 and built him an insane s14 kouki,biggest reason was lightweight and price of aftermarket availability. T86 feels great, I would imagine it feels like an S15 or NSX,biggest problem is that people want power and even tho I work at scion I can admit the price isn't justified,19k is more realistic. With that said I think the genesis coupe is going to outsale our Frs and until a factory turbo comes out which is unlikely from Scion but likely from Subaru the sales are going to vary.

Nissan diff is way better than the Toyota diff and always will be but with the vdc off and with the car being so light,car should get sideways with a simple clutch kick

[180sxmaniac]

EXACTLY! This is the very reason why my S14 is up for sale ;)
Genesis here i come !


Make sure you get a 2013 model. 2.0t or V6?

[RB24_S14]

I traded in my 400whp RB25 S14 Kouki for a Z33. Even though I gave up the power the Z chassis is a lot better. I love how the 350Z stock drives better then 240s modded. I have driven the FRS and even though it looks and feels good it does not compare to any Z. I drove a 370Z and I fell in love! I hope I can buy one soon.

[HyperTek]

So anyone have any thoughts on the 86 theft rate blowing up in the future due to the drift scene?

Seems like only a Z enthusiast like Zs, so bandwagon theft shouldn't be bad, at least i dont think.

As soon as a future fast and furious movie features one drifting around... lol

I wouldn't exclude the S2000, I still think they are pretty nice. Of course though I don't know how crazy you guys are about drop tops.

[180sxmaniac]

So anyone have any thoughts on the 86 theft rate blowing up in the future due to the drift scene?

Seems like only a Z enthusiast like Zs, so bandwagon theft shouldn't be bad, at least i dont think.

As soon as a future fast and furious movie features one drifting around... lol


1st mod should always be quick release and lock,lo jack wouldn't be a bad idea,the theft is from the Honda community,but no theft won't be a problem in the T86 community

[stevenwhite1989]

My friend has had AP1, GC 2.0T, AP2, now an FRS. In that order. I have driven all of those as well as an early 350z. If I had to pick between all of these it would be an AP1, put a hardtop on it, and enjoy every aspect of the car. They are pretty quick in a straight line, they handle extremely well, and with some negotiation it will drift. Get one for sub 12K thats been had by some old lady, and you are in great shape.

[LockOn!]

Am I the only one who hates the drivers position in a 350z? To me it feels like a roadster with my ass over the rear wheels, kind of like a s2000 or an FD. Personally I can't stand that feeling.

They really nailed the drivers position in the ZN6. That difference alone is enough to sway me.

[Agamemnon]

Make sure you get a 2013 model

Please explain.

[mewantkouki]

Am I the only one who hates the drivers position in a 350z? To me it feels like a roadster with my ass over the rear wheels, kind of like a s2000 or an FD. Personally I can't stand that feeling.

They really nailed the drivers position in the ZN6. That difference alone is enough to sway me.

It takes some getting used to. I felt really weird coming from an s14 to a 350z.

[KravingAKouki]

The 335i, despite its bad rap, is a great car. Dont get me wrong, the FRS/BRZ's sleek design, and tight interior giving that race inspired feel is why I like them, but the 350z isnt far off. I love both cars being argued, but I think the 335i isnt as bad as everyone says it is. If you drive the car right, with minimal thrashing, and do proper maintenance, the car is flawless. If you look up the common problems, and add those into routine inspections, the car will hardly fail on you. I have been working on my buddies car (335i) who is not car savvy, and he barely thrashes the thing. It is a clean gentleman's car, with that kick you want when desired. I favor the toyota's styling for daily purposes, but the nissan for track use. Just can deny nissan's.

[casperiv]

I'm probably in the minority, but here are my thoughts having had one of every Z, MR2's, RX-7's, an S2000, a BRZ, and a lot of other random cars, trucks, and bikes.

The 350Z is very meh. I don't even consider it a Z after spending so much time in S30 and Z32 cars. I had very high hopes for it initially, but after only a couple months I gave up on it. Having all the other cars to compare it to, it simply isn't a good car. It is under powered, has a poorly matched suspension to chassis, a cheap interior, and is about a "beige" as you can be an still have a sports car. It was honestly one of the few cars that I spent time with that I left feeling it had completely wasted my time. In my opinion it should never have been release as it was. I think it was rushed out to meet Honda's challenges and that the 370Z was closer to what it should have been.

The BRZ/FR-S is completely different. It is a true drivers car and looks much better. Even with the low horse power, it is a much more skillful tool. The chassis is better, the distribution and balance is better, etc. If the car had been either lighter or had more power, it would have been "too perfect" for OEM and the price point. Think of it this way, the price starts around $25,000... that's $10,000 to $15,000 less than an S2000 and there has been over 10 years of inflation. The options on the Toyoburu blow the S2K and 350Z out of the water as well. Traction control, stability control, digital/analog gauges, dual zone climate, standard nav with blue tooth... it's a lot of extras you would have had to pack in (if even offered) on the others.

The BRZ I bought was for my wife. I wanted to keep the S2000, but she didn't like driving the 6 speed daily and really didn't like the idea of driving it in the snow. The BRZ is perfect, just turn on the nannies and snow mode and she is off. I personally preferred the S2000 in most bad weather (I hate electronics messing with my brakes/throttle) but the BRZ has served well so far. I just drove it through some mountain passes on my vacation and it performed well. A 350Z or S2000 would have had more climbing ability, but the little BRZ did an amazing job on rapid direction changes and braking.

Next year I will be boosting her BRZ, probably installing coilovers, adding an oil cooler, and swapping out the wheels/tires. Sure, I will probably end up with another $5000 to $10000 into the car, but then it will be a Cayman killing wifey car.

At the end of the day I still prefer my 240Z and am most excited about seeing it on the road again soon.

[simmode1]

With that said I think the genesis coupe is going to outsale our Frs and until a factory turbo comes out which is unlikely from Scion but likely from Subaru the sales are going to vary.
Man, I wholeheartedly doubt that. As much as I'd love the GC 2.0T to triumph, the FRS/BRZ is the most hyped car I've ever seen short of the release of R35 GTR. But at least the GTR put down indisputable numbers & crushed its competition. I think the FRS is beating the GC in sales from the hype & the GC is merely doing respectable numbers for its segment. No idea how their sales compare to the 370z though.

Even if Toyota/Subaru went against what they've said about how they're never going to factory turbo the car... The car's price would balloon past $30k before mark up.

Hoping that the FRS/BRZ get a factory turbo is like hoping the Genesis coupe will get the sedan's 5.0 V8... Pipe dreaming.

[simmode1]

Please explain.
The 2013 model yeal for the Genesis coupe was a game changer for both the 2.0T and the 3.8L V6. Aside from the facelift the car got, both got big bumps in power but the prices remained about the same generally.

The 2013 2.0T went from having 210hp with 215ft/lbs to 260hp with 270ft/lbs. This is courtesy of a bigger, more responsive turbo & intercooler. But the developement has been relatively slow for the 2013 turbo model due to its integrated turbo+manifold design, which the previous models didn't feature. But there's still alot of potential to be tapped there. Just cracking the 2013 2.0T's ecu yields gains of 290hp with 340ft/lbs.

The 2013 3.8L V6 got direct injection, so it's gas mileage improved & its power went from 306hp to 348hp. It's ecu has also been cracked too, but I can't quote specifics because I never cared enuff about the V6 to look into it.

Here's my gripe about FRS vs 2013 GC 2.0T:
- They're the same price, but in stock form the GC is MUCH faster/more powerful despite the FRS's superior driving feel.
- First upgrade to do on an FRS/BRZ? Sticky tires. Now you can match the stock GC's lap times.
- First upgrade on the GC? Reflash the ecu for probably less than the FRS/BRZ's tires cost. Now the 86 is eating your dust again.

And I don't think most ppl are aware that Hyundai built in adjustable camber into the GC from the factory. As soon you roll it off the showroom floor, you can dial in up to -2 degrees immediately with no other mods needed. But no reviewer I've seen mentions this as they compare its handling to the FRS/BRZ twins.

But in order for the FRS/BRZ to match or exceed the performance numbers of the GC 2.0T, it's gonna need to add about ~$6000 onto the price of the car for some kinda forced induction. Great. Maybe then it'll match the stock numbers from the 3.8L V6 GC at the expense of its warranty and reliability. I just don't like boosting engines that were N/A from the factory. Its alot of work and the margin for error is much greater. I'd much rather deal with improving a car's handling woes than trying to reengineer its motor to reliably handle boost. Catastrophic engine failure just ain't my cup of tea.

[fliprayzin240sx]

My problem with the GC is that the facelift made the car ugly as shit...

[supersayianjim]

so pretty much the ft86 is the new miata, fun, good handling but slow as fak!!

[casperiv]

But in order for the FRS/BRZ to match or exceed the performance numbers of the GC 2.0T, it's gonna need to add about ~$6000 onto the price of the car for some kinda forced induction. Great. Maybe then it'll match the stock numbers from the 3.8L V6 GC at the expense of its warranty and reliability. I just don't like boosting engines that were N/A from the factory. Its alot of work and the margin for error is much greater. I'd much rather deal with improving a car's handling woes than trying to reengineer its motor to reliably handle boost. Catastrophic engine failure just ain't my cup of tea.

Numbers are not worth buying a car over especially when the stats are so close. The Genesis 2.0T R-Spec is 0-60 in 5.7 and 1/4 in 14.1 where as the BRZ/FR-S/GT86 is 0-60 in 6.4 and 1/4 14.9 out of the box. Those standing run times are not very far apart considering the power disparity of 74HP... and they are due to the weights. A GC runs nearly 3400lbs curb and the Toyoburu runs 2750ish. That is also why they drive so different and why after driving both, I preferred the Toyoburu (among other things). I will bet that I can give the little Toyoburu 74HP for less than you will need to remove 600lbs from the GC, while in the process keeping more creature comforts.

Have you driven a Genesis? I'm curious what you liked about it. When we were shopping I drove one a couple times and I didn't like it much. The vehicle is not very neutral and has a very hard time being driven like a sports car. The transmission is problematic, the extra weight makes it a bit slow to respond, and the engine "feels" laggy. I didn't like either cars engine actually.

If you just care about numbers, why not just buy something used? It would be nearly impossible for either car to beat the numbers of a 300ZXTT, S2000, or Corvette with the difference in price dumped into parts. I would wager a person looking to buy a new car isn't buying one worrying which one is faster for arm chair racing.

PS: In reference to your $6000 figure, that is fairly accurate, but it will gain you a lot more than what the Genesis has. For instance a Full Blown Stage 1 kit will give approximately 300WHP (significantly more than the 2.0T R-Spec). FBM swapped to a GTX35R and was able to push 521HP from the stock motor... which is an absurd amount for the chassis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAiC9gUQWMY&feature=player_embedded

[casperiv]

so pretty much the ft86 is the new miata, fun, good handling but slow as fak!!

Pretty much. Although, the engine in the FT86 is better than what Mazda kept shoving into the Miata. It was the next evolution of the Miata, a fun, great handling little car that dominated it's class in autocross. If you try to turn it into a big number car, you will probably be really disappointed and will almost certainly ruin the cars high points.

[Nismo_sam]

Z all the way, I've owned a nismo edition for 5 years now and I have yet to find a car i enjoy driving more (yes, i've driven plenty of cars) The Z is just so stable, comfortable, and confidence inspiring while pushing it hard. I know I won't be giving mine up for a longggg time. Not knocking the FT86 though, just needs more power for me to enjoy it, but man it sure is hard to say no to a Hot Lava FR-S.

[fliprayzin240sx]

so pretty much the ft86 is the new miata, fun, good handling but slow as fak!!

But not gay like the miata...:bigok:

[Cats]

Id go with a stock 350z over a frs anyday.

[Agamemnon]

The 2013 model yeal for the Genesis coupe was a game changer for both the 2.0T and the 3.8L V6. Aside from the facelift the car got, both got big bumps in power but the prices remained about the same generally.

The 2013 2.0T went from having 210hp with 215ft/lbs to 260hp with 270ft/lbs. This is courtesy of a bigger, more responsive turbo & intercooler. But the developement has been relatively slow for the 2013 turbo model due to its integrated turbo+manifold design, which the previous models didn't feature. But there's still alot of potential to be tapped there. Just cracking the 2013 2.0T's ecu yields gains of 290hp with 340ft/lbs.

Yeah, I get all that. I just dont like the idea of passing on the '10-'11 models. Why not get a low mileage 2010 with the 3.8L V6 at 314hp and just forget the 2.0T? More HP, better looks than the 2013, and you'd be saving some coin rather than buying brand new.

[simmode1]

Numbers are not worth buying a car over especially when the stats are so close. The Genesis 2.0T R-Spec is 0-60 in 5.7 and 1/4 in 14.1 where as the BRZ/FR-S/GT86 is 0-60 in 6.4 and 1/4 14.9 out of the box. Those standing run times are not very far apart considering the power disparity of 74HP... and they are due to the weights. A GC runs nearly 3400lbs curb and the Toyoburu runs 2750ish. That is also why they drive so different and why after driving both, I preferred the Toyoburu (among other things). I will bet that I can give the little Toyoburu 74HP for less than you will need to remove 600lbs from the GC, while in the process keeping more creature comforts.

Have you driven a Genesis? I'm curious what you liked about it. When we were shopping I drove one a couple times and I didn't like it much. The vehicle is not very neutral and has a very hard time being driven like a sports car. The transmission is problematic, the extra weight makes it a bit slow to respond, and the engine "feels" laggy. I didn't like either cars engine actually.

If you just care about numbers, why not just buy something used? It would be nearly impossible for either car to beat the numbers of a 300ZXTT, S2000, or Corvette with the difference in price dumped into parts. I would wager a person looking to buy a new car isn't buying one worrying which one is faster for arm chair racing.

PS: In reference to your $6000 figure, that is fairly accurate, but it will gain you a lot more than what the Genesis has. For instance a Full Blown Stage 1 kit will give approximately 300WHP (significantly more than the 2.0T R-Spec). FBM swapped to a GTX35R and was able to push 521HP from the stock motor... which is an absurd amount for the chassis.
FBM Turbo FRS 521HP - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAiC9gUQWMY&feature=player_embedded)
I dunno, man. For two cars so similar in price, those performance numbers are a big disparitiy, IMO. A few laps around a track will only compound them.

Yeah, I test drove a 2013 2.0T 6spd maybe 2 months ago. Didn't really get to lay into it or anything, but it's great from what I'd be using it for on a daily basis: passing slower traffic on the highway. All this talk of precision track driving and the feel of conquering the touge bullshit is lost on me. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it. But that's not how most of these cars are gonna get used. They're gonna be doing spirited highway pulls back and forth from work & the grocery store or where ever. Most ppl will never get a chance to experience the 86's defining glory, but every one can lay down rubber and enjoy the GC's passing power.

I thought the GC handled better than anything I'd ever owned, thats for sure. The 6spd manual did have a weird little delay, but that gets eliminated in the SFR reflash, so I didn't care much.

I liked the GC because it's got alot of relatively easy to attain performance potential while maintaining it's creature comforts. And the interior of the 2013 is really nice, IMO. Much better than the previous model and the FRS/BRZ's interior is doggie doodoo by comparison. I'm looking for something a little more upscale, and the GC was origianally developed to compete with the G35/G37 coupes. The 86 can't hold a candle to it in that department, IMO. The 86's interior isn't likely to impress any girl I'd date, but the GC's quality would surprise them.

As for used cars, yeah, sure. I like the GC but I'll probably never get own. I'd aiming for a truck like the Tacoma X-Runner as a daily driver & support vehicle to whatever next disposable drift slut I move onto... Z31 turbo, SR swapped Miata, etc...

[STR8 H8N]

qMf729n5avk

[simmode1]

^^^What an asshole. I hate convertible Z33's even more than FRS's. Talk about ugly as all fuck. I probably would have just gotten into the FRS and done donuts around that guy's assuredly auto 350.

[Ghosty]

^But dem wheels and dat spoiler! It is best top down summer car evar mang

[simmode1]

Lol! As for convertibles in that Z33's price range... I fell in love with the Sky Redline. The lil Baby Corvette is a nice little package thats sexy as hell and full of turbo charged fun. Hell, I'd take one of these over an FRS as well.
http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/5924/01gtwallpaperlx1.jpg

[casperiv]

I dunno, man. For two cars so similar in price, those performance numbers are a big disparitiy, IMO. A few laps around a track will only compound them.

Neither the GC or the BRZ/FR-S are race cars. Basing a decision on lap time of a specific track is never going to work because the winner is different based on track event structure. Miata's are extremely slow (compared to both of these) and are the dominant force in most autocross events in the hands of a good driver.

Yeah, I test drove a 2013 2.0T 6spd maybe 2 months ago. Didn't really get to lay into it or anything, but it's great from what I'd be using it for on a daily basis: passing slower traffic on the highway. All this talk of precision track driving and the feel of conquering the touge bullshit is lost on me. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it. But that's not how most of these cars are gonna get used. They're gonna be doing spirited highway pulls back and forth from work & the grocery store or where ever. Most ppl will never get a chance to experience the 86's defining glory, but every one can lay down rubber and enjoy the GC's passing power.

I thought the GC handled better than anything I'd ever owned, thats for sure. The 6spd manual did have a weird little delay, but that gets eliminated in the SFR reflash, so I didn't care much.

I liked the GC because it's got alot of relatively easy to attain performance potential while maintaining it's creature comforts. And the interior of the 2013 is really nice, IMO. Much better than the previous model and the FRS/BRZ's interior is doggie doodoo by comparison. I'm looking for something a little more upscale, and the GC was origianally developed to compete with the G35/G37 coupes. The 86 can't hold a candle to it in that department, IMO. The 86's interior isn't likely to impress any girl I'd date, but the GC's quality would surprise them.

It must be a matter of preference. I don't like the GC interior. It's flashy but with few real features and too many "fake" features (like the stitching, dead panels, etc). In fact, I hate that aspect of the new Z's. The BRZ has hands free bluetooth, nav, etc standard. The GC has to have some of it added as options. When it was said and done to get the same features the quote I received for a GC was $33,000 and was meh to drive. Of course, my previous cars have been pretty top of their class so I'm a little bias.

I would be all over the GC if the interior were a little less boy racer Honda and a little more German like, as well as being 700lbs lighter. I don't love the BRZ/FR-S interior either... I just disliked it less than the other options in the category.

As for used cars, yeah, sure. I like the GC but I'll probably never get own. I'd aiming for a truck like the Tacoma X-Runner as a daily driver & support vehicle to whatever next disposable drift slut I move onto... Z31 turbo, SR swapped Miata, etc...

Obviously opinions differ widely, as there are still people who buy things like the Pontiac Aztec and Toyota Prius lol. Having had a Z31, I would skip it. The Miata will blow the Z31 chassis out of the water regardless of which engine you run. I would also look at the S2000 since they are becoming rather cheap. I swapped an SR into my 240Z and have been rebuilding it from the ground up. The entire car will not weigh much over 2,000lbs so balancing power is as easy as a heavy car.

My next project will probably be built on an FD3 or S2000... maybe another Z32 since they are pretty darn durable ;)

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/9134_100834033272367_7865568_n.jpg

[simmode1]

You are correct that neither the FRS or GC are race cars, but their real world performance numbers can be helpful in the decision making process. It's gonna have to be an awfully tiny track for the FRS to real capitalize on its advantages over the GC, but in terms of real world performance, it just ain't gonna happen. No real way around that.

Ultimately it comes down to what the buyer places greater value on: tactile feel & driver sensation or superior speed & performance. The 2 cars really or apples and oranges. On the basis of performance, they should be comparing the GC 2.0T to the BWM 328I/128I, while the 3.8L V6 should compare to the 335I and G37 coupe. The only commonality between the GC & FRS is the price. But I will also mention that Hyundai's Bluelink system is another upscale feature which broadens it's BMW/Inifinti comparisons & is also something that I want. Scion/Toyota aren't offering creature comforts like that yet.

I think i may take your advice on the Z31 though. I like the engine but that suspension really is a headache to improve. I wouldn't mind an S2000 but I'll pass on that if I'm already financing an X-runner. That just leaves N/A Miatas or another S-chassis that I can pick up for cheap. Maybe an E36 toy might not be so bad. I like Z32's and if I find a TT for the right price, thats an option. But I'd rather prefer something super simple and we all know the Z32TT is anything but simple under the hood.

[180sxmaniac]

so pretty much the ft86 is the new miata, fun, good handling but slow as fak!!

Sorta but its not slow,its just not as fast as its competition. T86 would dust any stock Miata

[fliprayzin240sx]

Sorta but its not slow,its just not as fast as its competition. T86 would dust any stock Miata

Dusting a miata...not so much... Car & Driver just did a side by side comparison and they're dead even for the most part.

[13esim]

Ill take a GT86. Just lovew this car and wish i could afford one now. My friend has one that Ive been helping with though, and she is looking pretty good

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/13esim/IMG_20130323_182629_zps827f2cef.jpg

@ REVGASM Are you using the stock Ebrake or do you have a hydro?

[180sxmaniac]

Dusting a miata...not so much... Car & Driver just did a side by side comparison and they're dead even for the most part.

I've driven both cars extensively and there's no comparison between the Miata and FRS. The boxer motor in the FRS is so responsive and so punchy that the Miata just wouldn't stand a chance. Now maybe a Mazdaspeed Miata that's boosting would have a chance to take down the FRS but not any other Miata.

[180sxmaniac]

Man, I wholeheartedly doubt that. As much as I'd love the GC 2.0T to triumph, the FRS/BRZ is the most hyped car I've ever seen short of the release of R35 GTR. But at least the GTR put down indisputable numbers & crushed its competition. I think the FRS is beating the GC in sales from the hype & the GC is merely doing respectable numbers for its segment. No idea how their sales compare to the 370z though.

Even if Toyota/Subaru went against what they've said about how they're never going to factory turbo the car... The car's price would balloon past $30k before mark up.

Hoping that the FRS/BRZ get a factory turbo is like hoping the Genesis coupe will get the sedan's 5.0 V8... Pipe dreaming.


There's some truth to that,first off the GC doesn't need a V8. As soon as any manufacturer throws a V8 in a 2door car that car no longer becomes a sports car it becomes a muscle car and yes there is a difference. However the GC has a 2.0 big turbo (the only turbo FR layout sport car on the market,335i is luxury not sports car) and a V6 that has more power than any other V6 on the market to my knowledge. A V8 isn't needed rest my case. A turbo model is likely trust me,they just wanted to see how the car would sell as an NA before they go through with a turbo similar to the WRX to Sti. Yes the price would probably be closer to 41K for the turbo model but on the flip side the NA's would lose significant value making them even more affordable. I haven't seen the sale numbers yet seeing how the FRS hasn't been out for a full year yet, but I guarantee the Genesis Coupe is more appealing than the FRS. Most who are buying the FRS are doing it because they want to have the "Hot New Thing" or older people who think the Miata is too slow or too small for them. End of the day genesis coupe is more bang for the buck and I think we all can agree on that

[simmode1]

I'm just at the point where I feel that an N/A V6 is obsolete in a world where modern 4 cylinder turbo cars can make the same power while using less gas. But that same turbo 4 would have a hard time matching the power & torque of something like Hyundai's Tau 5.0 V8. Now that would be a true range topper, IMO. But whatever. Never gonna happen.

Oh and btw... The 370Z Nismo's VQ37 is about 2hp more powerful than Hyundai's 3.8L, IIRC.

Anyway, here's some comparos. Just sucks that there's not a single 2013 GC vs G37 or 335i review ANYWHERE.
fiP9-mWH6JY
mzTTx__QRcg
hZTSsD69mok#!

[DJ-of-E]

I'm just at the point where I feel that an N/A V6 is obsolete in a world where modern 4 cylinder turbo cars can make the same power while using less gas. But that same turbo 4 would have a hard time matching the power & torque of something like Hyundai's Tau 5.0 V8. Now that would be a true range topper, IMO. But whatever. Never gonna happen.

Oh and btw... The 370Z Nismo's VQ37 is about 2hp more powerful than Hyundai's 3.8L, IIRC.

Anyway, here's some comparos. Just sucks that there's not a single 2013 GC vs G37 or 335i review ANYWHERE.
fiP9-mWH6JY
mzTTx__QRcg
hZTSsD69mok#!

And can rev higher with longer power band...but I applaud the GC as a step to right direction unlike Honda.

[Akito86]

Here in CA as well as Japan the gt86/ Frs86 it's selling massively I see them everywhere and 90% of the time they have been mooded one way or another TAS was full of them!
The z on the other hand sold great aswell but to everyday driver and enthusiasts aswell, I believe the frs has more of an enthusiast back up. Both do looks amazing! The Z/frs have timeless looks.
But you can't compare power to power on a Z and Frs unless it was a new S-chassis vs Frs. If the frs ever came turbo it will be a a Japan-Euro mix only, the US would be left out, because of their greedy ridiculous regulations just to make money. Quite sure we can all agree on that, then again Subarus line up is turbine!:love:

[simmode1]

But you can't compare power to power on a Z and Frs unless it was a new S-chassis vs Frs.
If the frs ever came turbo it will be a a Japan-Euro mix only, the US would be left out, because of their greedy ridiculous regulations just to make money. Quite sure we can all agree on that, then again Subarus line up is turbine!
WTF does this mean...?

Anyways... Here's another comparison review. Finally someone calls the FRS for what it really is: overhyped.
jImHTWfj8aM

[MrChow]

Best stock drift cars that's I've ever drifted is:
All around: M3 E90 E92 it gets kinda of scary at +100mph and the corkscrew...
IS-F is just a fun on Laguna, but it's good at getting nice drifts much heavier but the TQ is nice.
My co-worker will say he think it's was the AMG C63 that was best car he's ever drifted at +100mph

I don't have stuff for Laguna. But here some stuff from my local autox.
462Y2kLCEdE
b_LDXXNS8ew

Anyways back on topic =P