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View Full Version : rb25 vtc-cam fail!!


supersayianjim
04-10-2013, 03:47 PM
so the weirdest thing happend to me this past saturday night.. fired up the rb 25 and drove a distance to kansas city from my garage for ths first time since i finished my swap. you know to get the bugs out and what not. then this happend.

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/firstlook1_zpsc536b460.jpg


http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/firstlook3_zpsb3e9f876.jpg


http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/firstlook4_zpsa6156ea5.jpg

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/firstlook2_zps7f65dbd6.jpg

Heres some back cliffs. when i replaced the old oil pan, and while cleaning the oil pickup there were 3 small pieces of aluminum shavings on the oil pickup. i thought nothing of this, but this may have played a part in what to come.

i finished my swap started up the engine. ran good no knocks or lifter tick. mind you i got a brand new n1 oil pump. so thankfully i had my harness done the right way so my oil pressure sender unit/dash oil light worked. never had any oiling problems untill this night.

i used dino-oil and a cheapo fram filter to just get a feel for the engine and planned on using synthetic later on(that didn't work out).

so iam driving around. working on my tune using nistune. i was copying and mimicing my stock fuel map that i uploaded through consult. i got a happy medium of 14-15 afr idle and about 15-16afr crusing mixture.

there are sensors on nistune/consult screen and the vtc window would blink but wouldn't go into red. (the fuel temp sensor was apparently busted). but other than that there weren't any notacable problems.

i didn't really get on it much as i was still breaking up above 15psi(i needed a pro tune). I wasn't bouncing off the rev limiter, just a little throttle here and there.

so them my dash oil light came on. great, so i went to walmart and got some more oil. on my way there when i was in throttle the light would go off, and flicker but i still got 2qt's to be safe.

put the 1st one in. and the light went off. then later on that night after starting the car. i had a damn lifter tick!!! WTF!!!

IT got louder as i went. so i added the other qt of oil, it sounded like it was getting better. then on the highway i hear a loud "CLANK"!! i get like maybe 5 more engine revs and like a couple more hundred feet to roll and thats sll she wrote. engine will crank but won't tuen over. sounds like there something stopping the rotation process!!!

and on top of that i see oil leaking out the bottom of the engine so my initial suspect was a bad oil pump. seeing as ive had a bad run-in prior with the n1 oil pump.

but a few days later and after a teardown and inspection heres what i found!!!

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/skippingabeat_zps1a1a872d.jpg


looks like the timing teeth were skipping a beat!!!



Went to pull off the timing gear and violia!!!


http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/snappedrightoff_zps91e63748.jpg


the intake cam seal looked like toasted shit. it appears that the cam siezed in the head!!


http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/intakecamside_zps056eddd3.jpg


http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/exhaustcamside_zpsb27e9115.jpg

supersayianjim
04-10-2013, 03:53 PM
and can't explain it but the exhuast cam looks equally shitty!!!


http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/exhaustcamgasket_zps4a4802f5.jpg

OrangeVirus1
04-10-2013, 03:55 PM
Possibly from no oil to that region and the heat + friction seized it is my guess.

time to tear it down, valves, possibly valve guides, or entire new head if it's badly scored.

also, For future reference, I'd highly recommend never rely on a stock anything gauge, and grab a good aftermarket oil psi gauge so at least you know what is going on, not a light on light off... you could of been making like 20psi oil / pressure @ redline and never even knew it..

supersayianjim
04-10-2013, 04:04 PM
so i pull the intake valve covers and what do i find?? not gold!! looks more like the bits i picked out of the pickup screen when i had the oil pan off, foul play???


http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/alumpartcles1_zpsc8166355.jpg

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/alumparticles2_zps3edddc52.jpg


so this is where things seem to be kinda fishy!! the front of the shaft is bone dry(explains the oil leakage before the final shutdown). but the back of the shaft has some oil, albeit not that much but more than the front!!

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/dryupfront_zpsac657cca.jpg



http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/not-sodryoutback_zpse584c8e7.jpg

supersayianjim
04-10-2013, 04:07 PM
and onto the camshaft retainers, these guys have seen better days iam sure.

http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/camretainers1_zpscdf69c41.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fcamretainers1_zpscdf69c41.jpg)

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__________________

supersayianjim
04-10-2013, 04:14 PM
and here is the intake camshaft and the now sprinkled with awesome aluminum head bit cam shims.


http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/brokenshaft1_zps6f588898.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fbrokenshaft1_zps6f588898.jpg)


yep, thats oil starvation!!


http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/brokenshaft2_zps43d2ee94.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fbrokenshaft2_zps43d2ee94.jpg)


http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/brokenshaft3_zpsfbaf23eb.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fbrokenshaft3_zpsfbaf23eb.jpg)


http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/headaftermath1_zps48080649.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fheadaftermath1_zps48080649.jpg)


yep, my head's effed!!!!


http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/headaftermath2_zpsbddc35ec.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fheadaftermath2_zpsbddc35ec.jpg)

Bambi
04-10-2013, 04:17 PM
Hooooooooooooooooooooooly shit.

OrangeVirus1
04-10-2013, 04:20 PM
I'd just toss the whole engine. if the oil pump failed and you were driving it, good bye cylinder walls, possibly crank, etc..

supersayianjim
04-10-2013, 04:21 PM
so when i get some time iam going to drain my oil and cut my filter in half to see if this snow is i my crank-case. knowimg my life it is and i need to pull this engine again and build it!!!

so i ask the community what the hell went wrong?? could not timing or the vtc itself could had caused this?? does the vtc have any effect on the oiling of these cars??

i thghtened the vtc cam gear to 50ft-lbs because i couldn't find the tq specs for the life of me. could this be a contributing factor??

i need a rb25s2 head if anyone has one let me know!!!

OrangeVirus1
04-10-2013, 04:25 PM
so when i get some time iam going to drain my oil and cut my filter in half to see if this snow is i my crank-case. knowimg my life it is and i need to pull this engine again and build it!!!

so i ask the community what the hell went wrong?? could not timing or the vtc itself could had caused this?? does the vtc have any effect on the oiling of these cars??

i thghtened the vtc cam gear to 50ft-lbs because i couldn't find the tq specs for the life of me. could this be a contributing factor??

i need a rb25s2 head if anyone has one let me know!!!

I don't know about the Rb25 for sure, but most car's VTC/VVT-i / w/e else requires oil pressure to work. so it could have an effect on the oiling.

Bambi
04-10-2013, 04:28 PM
i thghtened the vtc cam gear to 50ft-lbs because i couldn't find the tq specs for the life of me. could this be a contributing factor??
Did you tighten it in the right order? And yeah of course it can be that contributing factor. You didn't go by factory specs. Always go by spec and the fashion it should be done in.

supersayianjim
04-10-2013, 04:29 PM
Possibly from no oil to that region and the heat + friction seized it is my guess.

time to tear it down, valves, possibly valve guides, or entire new head if it's badly scored.

also, For future reference, I'd highly recommend never rely on a stock anything gauge, and grab a good aftermarket oil psi gauge so at least you know what is going on, not a light on light off... you could of been making like 20psi oil / pressure @ redline and never even knew it..


i hear you orange. thing is this was a brand fucking new oil pump!!! i can't believe nismo put out shit for oil pumps!! the irony is i payed for a regular oem unit. not a nismo but got one anyway!! thought it was a good day:nono:

supersayianjim
04-10-2013, 04:30 PM
I don't know about the Rb25 for sure, but most car's VTC/VVT-i / w/e else requires oil pressure to work. so it could have an effect on the oiling.


requires oil pressure to work, so if it was getting the proper pressure would it still fail???

anotherblusi
04-12-2013, 04:57 PM
Looks like you may have had a clogged oil passage. Pump is probably fine since the rest of the engine is getting oil. Once oil stopped flowing to the front of the head, the cam probably seized in the head, stopping the rotation of the engine. At that point something had to give. VTC has very little to do with what happened here.

The head is trash, but if you plan on reusing the bottom end, make sure all passages are cleaned and checked for flow.

fliprayzin240sx
04-12-2013, 09:03 PM
Did you check the crank snout when you changed the oil pump? The oil pump driver on the snout might have been fubar'd/rounded up all ready and not cranking the oil pump. RBs are notorious for this shit. If the snout is fucked, doesnt matter what pump you slap on it, its gonna be bad either way.

zerodameaon
04-13-2013, 02:13 AM
Don't toss the engine as stated, bad advice, check it out and rebuild as appropriate. As Flip said check the crank snout, Raw Brokerage sells crank collars to fix some of this issue which could be useful if you do end up needing a new bottom end, or hell even if it was not the issue.

fliprayzin240sx
04-14-2013, 08:11 AM
Also, did you have an aftermarket oil pressure sensor? I'm curious what pressures you were seeing with the N1 pump. If you're seeing pressure, then its not an oil pump issue.

Did you redo the headgasket at one point? Did you do anything as far as putting in oil restrictors since everybody and their mom swears you have to run restrictors to run the N1 pump? If you did, one of the restrictors could be clogged and caused to not get oil in the head.

You might still be able to save the bottom end, but that head is definitely done.

supersayianjim
04-16-2013, 03:45 PM
Don't toss the engine as stated, bad advice, check it out and rebuild as appropriate. As Flip said check the crank snout, Raw Brokerage sells crank collars to fix some of this issue which could be useful if you do end up needing a new bottom end, or hell even if it was not the issue.


well i already put a deposit on another engine. so this clunker iam gonna part out and maybe do a bottom end build. iam not comfortable with alum-snow floating around my oil system. might even sell my n1 because iam weird like that.

supersayianjim
04-16-2013, 03:47 PM
Also, did you have an aftermarket oil pressure sensor? I'm curious what pressures you were seeing with the N1 pump. If you're seeing pressure, then its not an oil pump issue.

Did you redo the headgasket at one point? Did you do anything as far as putting in oil restrictors since everybody and their mom swears you have to run restrictors to run the N1 pump? If you did, one of the restrictors could be clogged and caused to not get oil in the head.

You might still be able to save the bottom end, but that head is definitely done.


no oil pressure sensor(aftermarket). just the stock ka/rb unit.

didn't touch the head, no oil restrictors, just the t28 oil feed line.

supersayianjim
04-16-2013, 04:10 PM
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb235/jdmenginescorp_2007/eBay%2012-08-2012/eBay%2003-20-2013/069_zps3badde07.jpg




http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb235/jdmenginescorp_2007/eBay%2012-08-2012/eBay%2003-20-2013/070_zpsa8f13fde.jpg

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb235/jdmenginescorp_2007/eBay%2012-08-2012/eBay%2003-20-2013/071_zps1ea0fb21.jpg


http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb235/jdmenginescorp_2007/eBay%2012-08-2012/eBay%2003-20-2013/072_zps83032313.jpg



http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb235/jdmenginescorp_2007/eBay%2012-08-2012/eBay%2003-20-2013/073_zps812162cd.jpg

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb235/jdmenginescorp_2007/eBay%2012-08-2012/eBay%2003-20-2013/074_zps0ec23b34.jpg


http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb235/jdmenginescorp_2007/eBay%2012-08-2012/eBay%2003-20-2013/076_zps9e6ace2f.jpg




heres the next(and hopefully last) motorset iam getting. yes i know it's awd but i have a oil pan etc.

OrangeVirus1
04-16-2013, 04:12 PM
When you get this engine, before you buy a single thing, invest in a REAL oil psi gauge :) not a "uh oh no oil psi dummy light "

supersayianjim
04-16-2013, 04:27 PM
When you get this engine, before you buy a single thing, invest in a REAL oil psi gauge :) not a "uh oh no oil psi dummy light "


this i will do!!

fliprayzin240sx
04-16-2013, 08:13 PM
Looks really clean Stagea engine...when you part out the old engine, lemme know. I'm interested on a couple spare parts off your old engine like the valve cover.

supersayianjim
04-17-2013, 09:24 AM
Looks really clean Stagea engine...when you part out the old engine, lemme know. I'm interested on a couple spare parts off your old engine like the valve cover.


you got it.

so am i loosing it, or is there some kind of conspiracy going on here??


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Nissan-Skyline-GTR-RB25-26DET-T-OIL-PUMP-Brand-New-/271182848888?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f23c1e378&vxp=mtr#ht_1833wt_1018

supersayianjim
04-17-2013, 03:19 PM
so i finally got around to pulling the exhaust cam cover and cutting the oil filter.

but i found my receipt for my n1 oil pump.


http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/n1oilpumpreceipt_zpsa98b30d9.jpg


dosen't say anything about a n1. but i got one anyway, hmmm..

supersayianjim
04-17-2013, 03:26 PM
so heres some pics of under my exhaust cam cover.


http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/exhaustcam1_zps9944d471.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fexhaustcam1_zps9944d471.jpg)


http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/exhaustcam2_zps0982ef16.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fexhaustcam2_zps0982ef16.jpg)


http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/exhaustcam3_zps57a2e315.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fexhaustcam3_zps57a2e315.jpg)


http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/exhaustcoversnow_zps9274ed65.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fexhaustcoversnow_zps9274ed65.jpg)



http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/exhaustfrontcapstarved_zps38be02e1.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fexhaustfrontcapstarved_zps38be02e1.jpg)


so you can see the snow on this cam. and i did nothing but replace the cam seal, and the cam gear is "eff-up-proof" in terms of install and reinstall. so rb detectives, what do you think??

supersayianjim
04-17-2013, 03:58 PM
And finally i cut open the oil filter, hoping to get some clues about how much snow is in my system??


http://www.240sxforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/wol_error.gifThis image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image.http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr317/supersayianjim/project%20s-rb/splitopen_zps1d2041fe.jpg Report this image (http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.240sxforums.co m%2Fforums%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D151770&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi495.photobucket.com%2Falbum s%2Frr317%2Fsupersayianjim%2Fproject%2520s-rb%2Fsplitopen_zps1d2041fe.jpg)


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so i really couldn't see a smoking gun looking at this. the white residue on the cut point is from the saw. but aside from that i can't tell if there is snow in my crank case. on a side note fram oil filters are sh&t!!

zerodameaon
04-18-2013, 12:32 AM
you got it.

so am i loosing it, or is there some kind of conspiracy going on here??


Genuine Nissan Skyline GTR RB25 26DET T Oil Pump Brand New | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Nissan-Skyline-GTR-RB25-26DET-T-OIL-PUMP-Brand-New-/271182848888?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f23c1e378&vxp=mtr#ht_1833wt_1018)

What's the conspiracy? The price vs an N1?

As well hope you have luck with this one. Post up some pics if you decide to crack open the block. And yes I would not even trust a fram on a air compressor.

fliprayzin240sx
04-18-2013, 04:28 PM
Pull the head and check the oil galleys to the front of the head.

BossHogg
04-18-2013, 05:03 PM
^^^^exactly what I was going to say.

supersayianjim
05-07-2013, 10:14 AM
finished paying off new motorset, will be here tomorrow!!

taking early dibs/bids on parts people!!