sr head solid lifter rebuild vs ve swap

[drivinsidewayz86]

Hey guys im on the verge of finishing my engine and i have my stock s15 head and im on the fence about doing.a ve head vs building my head with solid lifters ive read all of the threads an keep seeing that you have to reshim solid.lifters if i did tomei lifters is it worth it to do the solid lifters or should i.just buy a p12 head i plan to have 600+hp

[e5s4y]

subscribed.

I'm not too knowledgeable about this specific subject, but i know my bike has solid lifters, and i have to check the valve clearances every 15k miles or so. Not too big of a deal to check, but can be a pain to change out shims. not sure if this kind of thing applies here or not.

[jr_ss]

VE will make more power all day long. Sure power can be had out of the DET head, just takes more work and boost. Solid lifters only prevent you from throwing rocker arms at high RPMs, it doesn't increase your overall power potential. You still need the supporting mods to get it to spin that high. You'll also need to buy the corresponding cams from Tomei for the solid lifters and you will have to check tolerances every 5k or so and swap out to the correct shims if necessary. If that's not a big deal for you, save yourself some money and do the rocker upgrade. If you want nothing to do with floating rockers, go VE.

[Hashiriya415]

VE head. No reason to build up old technology head when you have all new redesigned better head that will outperform the old built head in every way.

[STR8E180]

Ve head will stil rev harder then a solid lifter det cylinder head
Ve head will also be more responsive and make more power

[ForeignMuscle]

I think the answer to your question is how much coin do you want to drop? Of course VE will flow better but that is not as simple as throwing solid lifters in. You need a VE oil pump, the complete head, solenoid kit, a hole in your firewall or a Hall effect sensor, and of course your manifolds will have to be for VE or reflanged. I say VE all the way if you have the money.

[SlideOrDie831]

VE head. theres more then just swapping the head though.

[jr_ss]

Of course your manifolds will have to be for VE or reflanged.

DET manifolds will work, you just need to oblong the bolt holes...

[Hashiriya415]

VE oil pump is needed regardless. Higher RPM screams for that extra oil.
Solenoids are not needed if you don't want the little bit of extra power at lower RPM, just keep the high lobe cam engaged all the time.

[ForeignMuscle]

Sure you can skimp and not do this and cheat on that. Doing things right the first time makes all the difference. And look at the size of the intake and exhaust ports on the VE head compared to the det head.. Just using det manifolds will be restrictive. Of course you can port the manifolds and all that. You should be doing your homework for a while before just jumping into this. There is going to be a huge price difference between these two options, but with money comes performance.

[STR8E180]

I think the answer to your question is how much coin do you want to drop? Of course VE will flow better but that is not as simple as throwing solid lifters in. You need a VE oil pump, the complete head, solenoid kit, a hole in your firewall or a Hall effect sensor, and of course your manifolds will have to be for VE or reflanged. I say VE all the way if you have the money.

My p12 crank angle sensor clears the firewall, no need to chop a hole in the firewall
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/str8e180/DSC00066-1.jpg
You dont nee a solenoid kit if your using a p12 head as well

[STR8E180]

Sure you can skimp and not do this and cheat on that. Doing things right the first time makes all the difference. And look at the size of the intake and exhaust ports on the VE head compared to the det head.. Just using det manifolds will be restrictive. Of course you can port the manifolds and all that. You should be doing your homework for a while before just jumping into this. There is going to be a huge price difference between these two options, but with money comes performance.

All Ve cylinder heads share the same size exhaust ports As the de/det
Exhaust Ports are the same only difference is the flange
The Ve bolt holes are off set but the exhaust ports them self flow the same
It's only the intake port which is bigger on the Ve heads

[jr_ss]

My p12 crank angle sensor clears the firewall, no need to chop a hole in the firewall
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/str8e180/DSC00066-1.jpg
You dont nee a solenoid kit if your using a p12 head as well

That depends on the chassis you have. If I'm not mistaken you have an S13. The S14 firewall/bulkhead is different and there is less room to fit the CAS, hence why I had to use the Mazworx trigger wheel setup.

All Ve cylinder heads share the same size exhaust ports As the de/det
Exhaust Ports are the same only difference is the flange
The Ve bolt holes are off set but the exhaust ports them self flow the same.

Exactly, and this is what I was implying when I stated that the DET manifold works.

[ForeignMuscle]

I've also heard motor mounts can make a difference. And I learned something new today. Sorry guys, I thought exhaust ports were larger as well. Either way I think I made my point on price difference. If you have the cash then of course go VE.

[[email protected]]

what is your overall goal of your set up?
VVL isnt cheap and 95% of the people who do it do it for the wrong reason and spend lots of $ for something that could be been done for far cheaper

[jr_ss]

95% of the people who do it do it for the wrong reason.

What exactly would you call the right reason? And what is your idea of the wrong?

[[email protected]]

What exactly would you call the right reason? And what is your idea of the wrong?

kuz people seem to be doing it for the bling factor,
yes we all know the VE head is in a different league then the DET no question there but if your looking to be in the 500-600 range
is the cost of going VE worth it when the DET will do the job and you can put that $ elsewhere

if i could go VE i would on mine but my set up is built differently then those built here for sideways action

[hobbs]

VE oil pump is needed regardless. Higher RPM screams for that extra oil.
Solenoids are not needed if you don't want the little bit of extra power at lower RPM, just keep the high lobe cam engaged all the time.

Because ya know, oil pressure activating the intake and exhaust cams have nothing to do with the higher flowing VE pump, it's just because they rev higher.


Fuck, the stupid shit people say these days...


I've also heard motor mounts can make a difference. And I learned something new today. Sorry guys, I thought exhaust ports were larger as well. Either way I think I made my point on price difference. If you have the cash then of course go VE.

They are larger than the DE/DET ports, not by much but they are indeed bigger. They share the same bolt pattern as the DE/DET so manifolds bolt right up but will need to be ported to match the VE.

[ForeignMuscle]

So I was right? I'm just confused now. I thought they were larger too. I know the intake ports are a lot larger.

[autotechmotoring]

Intake ports are larger from the factory on a ve head than a max porter det head. The shaft mounted rockers are definetly a plus. The factory valves are slightly larger in head diameter than the det head. Increased air flow to the head helps the engine breathe better and will definetly help get your turbo to come on alot sooner. Yes there is alot involved in doing the ve head swap, but it's benefits weigh well over doing a det head worked over.

If you do decide to do solid pivot setup, you will need to occasionally shim the head. This is not a fail safe to broken rockers. There is also dual guide conversion that can be done to help also prevent broken rockers. And no rOcker arm stoppers will not help either. The damages I've seen with exploding and broken rockers is not pretty.

Oh yes also in the conversion, you will need to modify the oil pickup also.

[STR8E180]

We recently put a Ve head setup into a s15 and the crank angle sense also cleared the firewall and I'm pretty sure s15 and s14 share the same engine bay firewall
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/str8e180/292315_371166219622173_42484895_n_zpsb4baff84.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/str8e180/486568_371166122955516_987787480_n.jpg

[STR8E180]

this is SR20DET exhaust manifold flange placed on a SR20ve cylinder head

ports are the same just the bolt holes are offset

[STR8E180]

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN P11 AND P12 INTAKE PORTS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/str8e180/sr20vep11vsp12inlet.jpg

[ForeignMuscle]

Cool man. I'm at work or I would have searched myself. This is interesting because eventually I will go this route. So keep the info coming. Anyone care to share how much money they have in their conversion??

[MadScientist]

If I didn't already have a built S14 SR head... I would have went P12 SR head.

Cost wise P12 will still cost less.

Est. about $3k in parts and machine work on the S14 SR head as I have it right now.

Parts:
Tomei Solid 270 in/ex
Tomei cam gears
Tomei solid pivots
Tomei shims (test and actual)
Tomei bronze valve guides
Tomei valve seats
Tomei RAS (because)
SuperTech valves
SuperTech retainers
SuperTech 110lb twin springs

Machine work:
Port n Polished
3 angle valves (valves and head)
30 deg. port flair
Shiming
Hot Tank
Guides removed & replaced
Assembly

I have more than just that done, I can't think of it all... shit wasn't cheep!!

[ForeignMuscle]

Yea I know building s13/14 heads is outrageous. I will definitely go VE before I fully build a 52f head.

[STR8E180]

if cost isnt an issue then a VE head is the way to go
its got a much more reliable valve train design

[jr_ss]

We recently put a Ve head setup into a s15 and the crank angle sense also cleared the firewall and I'm pretty sure s15 and s14 share the same engine bay firewall

What engine mounts are being used? Do they have a Z32 trans behind them?

[STR8E180]

What engine mounts are being used? Do they have a Z32 trans behind them?

My s13 has a rb25 PPG dog box behind it
Engine and gearbox mounts are nismo items

The s15 I posted above as a powerglide auto behind it
Engine mounts are nismo items
Gearbox cross member is custom made but using nismo gearbox mount

[jr_ss]

My s13 has a rb25 PPG dog box behind it
Engine and gearbox mounts are nismo items

The s15 I posted above as a powerglide auto behind it
Engine mounts are nismo items
Gearbox cross member is custom made but using nismo gearbox mount

That's interesting. I'm running a Mazworx Z32 trans kit and Nismo mounts all around and I have 1.5-2" behind my head. Not enough for a P12 CAS.

The S15 does have the same firewall/bulkhead, but I'm curious if LHD vs RHD has anything to do with that. I'm guessing it does.

[STR8E180]

All the engines are sitting in the standard location
It's not moved forward or any thing like that
Engine cross member is completely standard
Would like to see if difference between LHD and RHD firewalls

[STR8E180]

This is how much room

Taken from other side

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/str8e180/DSC00067.jpg

[ForeignMuscle]

I wanna know more about this VET with a 2 speed powerglide...

[STR8E180]

I wanna know more about this VET with a 2 speed powerglide...

its still on its run in tune


Powertune black dragon

NO VVL ( still running on small profile cam lobe )

power glide auto

e85

20psi

RUN-IN TUNE!!!! 524hp / 399kw

[STR8E180]

ben bary's billet SR20 block
billet block machined up by bullet here in Australia

http://cdn.speedhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/FACTORY-XTREME-5880.jpg

http://cdn.speedhunters.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/FACTORY-XTREME-5892.jpg

[ForeignMuscle]

That last Speed Hunters photo is the background on my phone haha. Absolutely nasty.
Anyways, I've been searching around about getting a built auto mated up to my sr. Just so much better for drag..

[STR8E180]

That last Speed Hunters photo is the background on my phone haha. Absolutely nasty.
Anyways, I've been searching around about getting a built auto mated up to my sr. Just so much better for drag..

Yeah it's so much better for drag we put this ket together ourself
It's a complete street car as you can see it still retains all it's interior with working heater and aircon and working sound system
Can't wait to see what this car makes on a final tune

[jr_ss]

This is how much room

Taken from other side

There is a bulge that protrudes into the engine bay at almost dead center of the bulkhead at the top on the S14's. I'll snap a picture when I get home this evening.

[jr_ss]

Here is a shot from the US driver's side of my clearance...

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt352/jr_ss/BogueBanks050.jpg?t=1350509605

I circled the bulged in the picture below. You can see that it is pretty much dead center in the engine bay.

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt352/jr_ss/Untitled-2.jpg?t=1350510254

[TheRealSy90]

Oh hey know what you can do for free or almost nothing? Dual guide shims. Will handle 10k and you can grab a set from any junkyard sentra for free...

[jr_ss]

Oh hey know what you can do for free or almost nothing? Dual guide shims. Will handle 10k and you can grab a set from any junkyard sentra for free...

Doesn't fix the fact that hyrdraulic lifters can't keep up with the revs. Nor does it fix the fact that you'll have to reshim every 5k miles or so if your solid. Sure it might help out, but you'll break/toss arms when the lifters lose their mechanical capabilities.

[TheRealSy90]

Is it really gonna be reving that high?

[jr_ss]

Is it really gonna be reving that high?

Could if you wanted it too...

[STR8E180]

Is it really gonna be reving that high?
i rev mine to 9500 rpm, i would rev it harder but no point because my turbo isnt making any more power

[STR8E180]

my mate is building this at the moment

http://blog.ausperformance.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/IMG_4883.jpg

[STR8E180]

sitting in a S14

[ForeignMuscle]

Holy freaking exhaust manifold. I'm moving to Australia..

[Chaluska]

my mate is building this at the moment

http://blog.ausperformance.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/IMG_4883.jpg

i typically have zero respect for sr's,

but this just gave me an intense hardon.

just looks so pretty!

[SRS13JH]

The extra costs of VE?


suitable computer
suitable ignition set-up
custom wiring
new intake manifold
new turbo set-up
new intercooler (most likely based on new power)
other custom bits and pieces that are needed
i'm sure there are other things


It all adds up to many thousands more!

It makes sense to go VE if your starting from scratch but when you have all these things and want to do it, it means you end up replacing a tonne of stuff and thats where the price really starts to climb.

I couldn't justify the extra $5-10K it was going to cost. not when I'm planning 350-400rwk and a DET would do that. Sure it wont be as responsive and will require some more boost but it will do it.

[Hashiriya415]

Because ya know, oil pressure activating the intake and exhaust cams have nothing to do with the higher flowing VE pump, it's just because they rev higher.


Fuck, the stupid shit people say these days...

Ok smart guy. let me stop you for a second. Read what I said first then open you're mouth, because you clearly didn't read it correctly or your brain doesn't understand.
EVEN IF HE BUILDS A DET HEAD, understand me here so far here hobbs? VE oil pump is needed regardless. Reving it to 9k RPM will be requiring more oil flow and pressure then at factory DET rpm. So regardless which route is taken, a VE oil pump should be used.
Too me it doesn't seem to cost much if you skip the solenoid stuff. If you look at it this way. You building performance engine, you need intake mani, so VE head or not, your still spending on intake mani.
You do save money by keeping factory cams and not doing any port work, also the springs and keepers is optional.
Maybe its just me but, I don't mind higher cam lobe all time. Its just like a race cam on built DET head, lopey idle and not that great low RPM's but who cares its race car living its life in upper RPM's.

[STR8E180]

should use a ve oil pump any way so the bolt holes at the top of the timing case cover lines up with the cylinder head

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/str8e180/DSC_0008-3.jpg

[ForeignMuscle]

I don't think you can use a VE pump with a DET head.

[STR8E180]

I don't think you can use a VE pump with a DET head.

Pull the Ve gearset out and swap it over
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/str8e180/DSC_0001-2.jpg

[ForeignMuscle]

Oh ok I understand. It does look like the outer casing has more volume though. (you circled the area) Is the actual pump any different?

[[email protected]]

Ok smart guy. let me stop you for a second. Read what I said first then open you're mouth, because you clearly didn't read it correctly or your brain doesn't understand.
EVEN IF HE BUILDS A DET HEAD, understand me here so far here hobbs? VE oil pump is needed regardless. Reving it to 9k RPM will be requiring more oil flow and pressure then at factory DET rpm. So regardless which route is taken, a VE oil pump should be used.
Too me it doesn't seem to cost much if you skip the solenoid stuff. If you look at it this way. You building performance engine, you need intake mani, so VE head or not, your still spending on intake mani.
You do save money by keeping factory cams and not doing any port work, also the springs and keepers is optional.
Maybe its just me but, I don't mind higher cam lobe all time. Its just like a race cam on built DET head, lopey idle and not that great low RPM's but who cares its race car living its life in upper RPM's.

Not needed we had seersl 9500k det's on DET pumps and never had a issue its more of a comfort think and yes benefits better by having more oil pressure but it isn't required

[STR8E180]

Oh ok I understand. It does look like the outer casing has more volume though. (you circled the area) Is the actual pump any different?

The part In the red box is the part that doesn't clear the balancer

[MadScientist]

May not be needed, but for $170, I like the added insurance!!

[drivinsidewayz86]

So besides the p12 head ,soleniod relocation brackets, ve pump, intake n exhaust manifolds. What ecu do you have to use and what type of wiring is involved in make the ve head work with the s14 sr harness

[STR8E180]

So besides the p12 head ,soleniod relocation brackets, ve pump, intake n exhaust manifolds. What ecu do you have to use and what type of wiring is involved in make the ve head work with the s14 sr harness

If your using a p12 head u don't need the solenoid relocation kit
P12 head u can use the standard solenoid very simple

Any ecu which can support VVL
So power fc , nistune are out of the question

I'm running a haltech platinum pro
Most ecu will have a patch loom which will adapt your standard loom into your aftermarket ecu
The wiring is very simple it's one of the most simple parts of the conversion

[drivinsidewayz86]

Is it alot.harder to put the head n.oil pump on once the engine is in the car cas im debating on throwijg.my det head on.to get my car running.

[LoFoSho]

Just out of curiosity, but would an AEM EMS 1 for an sr20det redtop work to turn the VVL on and off? Does it have the capability to do so?

[ForeignMuscle]

May not be needed, but for $170, I like the added insurance!!

Where are you looking at a new pump for $170? That's a good price and I'm debating buying a new one..

[MadScientist]

Where are you looking at a new pump for $170? That's a good price and I'm debating buying a new one..

you have to buy the SR20VE front cover (Oil Pump included)... $169.99 (http://www.nissanraceshop.com/product/333376/sr20ve-pump-135001n501)

I would go ahead and replace your Front Main Seal while your at it!!

[drivinsidewayz86]

when using a p12 head what do you use as the pickup for the crank sensor ??

[jr_ss]

when using a p12 head what do you use as the pickup for the crank sensor ??

You use the P12 CAS. And it's a cam angle sensor not crank... Although you can use a crank trigger wheel if you wanted too.

[drivinsidewayz86]

Mazxworx has.that hall sensor kit im going to be using a aem would that work.??

[jr_ss]

Dude, really...? I'm not spoon feeding anymore, some one else take over...

[autotechmotoring]

Mazxworx has.that hall sensor kit im going to be using a aem would that work.??

Yes it will work. You will need to machine the front of the head to be able to install the sensor. If you are running an AEM Series 1, they have the sync setup included in the instruction manual.

BTW I have a brand new Mazworx hall sensor kit for sale if your interested ;)

[ForeignMuscle]

Dude, really...? I'm not spoon feeding anymore, some one else take over...

jr_ss, I try to be helpful as well but this is a little ridiculous.

I'm sorry man, but you have to have a clue before having a well built, reliable engine. You should definitely stick with a basic head and learn your way around the engine first. I'm not trying to belittle your knowledge but it just doesn't seem like you should be taking this on right now. You're chancing a big waste of your money, if you're loaded or just don't give a damn then go for it.

[STR8E180]

when using a p12 head what do you use as the pickup for the crank sensor ??

I'm using the standard p12 cam angle sensor

[drivinsidewayz86]

I was considering my too opinions of getting a p12 cas or a hall sensor prices are kinda close only difference is i wont have a clearance issues from what ive researched