Anti Lag Systems (rally/drift)

[tunermt]

It is a well known fact a phat power band makes for great sliding. With so many cars going the V8 route to get the desired torque curve what options do the smaller 4 and 6 cylinder guys have?

Recently i noticed the Bee*R gaining some popularity with the drift community which is a step in the right direction, however a few key things are missing.

Check out the details for the more popular secondary air injection systems found on many WRC cars: Brewed Motorsports: Turbo Anti Lag system aka ALS (http://brewed-motorsports.blogspot.com/2012/07/turbo-anti-lag-system-aka-als.html)

2jz powered S13 running a combination of SAI and TBP Antilag
RKmIvBw_AHI

Video of the Brewed Rally style ALS on a 4g63 VR4 running AEM ems.
f577XUQgTcY

And of course an engine bay shot of a mitsubishi (check out the link above for the diagram of all the ALS parts)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TE3R75uPxOs/Tcn7vyC1ksI/AAAAAAAAANM/NbE3f8FprhQ/s320/wrc_evo_sas_v_band.jpg

I know there are a few people out there using a "rally style" anti lag in their drift builds ;)
Please feel free to post up any questions, thoughts and idea's on ALS options for drift use, little Zilvia brain storm session if you will.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pHZeC5BVKy4/T2vG83iW6pI/AAAAAAAABJQ/RkOYhf0ejz8/s400/Brewed_ka-t_s13_v2_aem_ems_antilag_tuning.JPG

[InsTanCeZ]

I know Ken Gushi uses one in his FR-S, but he also uses a Cosworth tuned EJ25 Impreza rally engine. It seems like a great idea, but it is very hard on the turbo and it will need to be replaced or rebuilt often, which can get pretty expensive. If I ever did this I would most definitely not use a ball-bearing turbo, a journal bearing turbo would be better since you could rebuild it. Gushi is using the Greddy TD06SH-25G turbo, which is a journal bearing turbo.

[lude4life13]

This reminds me of the Evo in Initial D lol. I would love to drive a car with an ALS and experience how it reacts in a racing environment.

[tunermt]

yes antilag can be very hard on things but if used sparingly and tuned for longevity even turbos can last a decent amount of time. I agree journal bearing is not a bad option as the center section doesn't have the plastic bearing cage the GT series uses for the BB.
(new EFR center section BB does use a metal "bearing cage" that help up great while we used one on the s13) Mitsubishi based turbos also seem to handle ALS pretty well from my experience with the 8/9 turbos.

[Walperstyle]

One day after doing a lot of turbo math
(update-Turbo Math, and what helped me - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AasEZE3IK_w))

...I invented a ZERO LAG setup.

I came up with a bunch of detailed drawings on how one could use a 2nd Turbine (jet engine) to spool a turbo. The car would have two separate exhaust systems (perhaps 3) pending on what was planned. I spent many hours designing the system, only to find out Someone already built it.....

Jealous

The car
Development (http://raceenginedesign.biz/Manic-Beattie.htm).

The video of the car
Fast Very Fast! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee9H93uvYRo&t=25s)

http://raceenginedesign.biz/RED%20Images/carousel-trimmed.jpg
http://raceenginedesign.biz/RED%20Images/DSC00038.jpg

[Matej]

The best thing about 'anti-lag' is making the car sound like a war movie.

_epjB1fDzAM&showinfo=0&iv_load_policy=3&vq=hd1080

[tunermt]

One day after doing a lot of turbo math
(update-Turbo Math, and what helped me - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AasEZE3IK_w))

...I invented a ZERO LAG setup.

I came up with a bunch of detailed drawings on how one could use a 2nd Turbine (jet engine) to spool a turbo. The car would have two separate exhaust systems (perhaps 3) pending on what was planned. I spent many hours designing the system, only to find out Someone already built it.....

Jealous

The car
Development (http://raceenginedesign.biz/Manic-Beattie.htm).

The video of the car
Fast Very Fast! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee9H93uvYRo&t=25s)

http://raceenginedesign.biz/RED%20Images/carousel-trimmed.jpg
http://raceenginedesign.biz/RED%20Images/DSC00038.jpg

That build is absolutely amazing :)

[PoorMans180SX]

This will be of interest to you.

Beyond the Dyno: Rocket Anti-lag Teaser (http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/2619/external-combustion-rocket-zero-lag-teaser.aspx)

[Tle1993]

The best thing about 'anti-lag' is making the car sound like a war movie.

_epjB1fDzAM&showinfo=0&iv_load_policy=3&vq=hd1080

this is badass! lol its just gun shots:naughtyd:

[NoPistons!]

And that car is fast as fuck. =D

Make explosions between exhaust valve and turbine and you has compression that spools turbo off throttle. Electronic control is what i was looking to do but can't even find time to assemble an MSnS let alone finish my car. Scraped the project in favor of seat time. Good luck to all ye who attempt the TRUE ALS system.

[PoorMans180SX]

Watch the link I posted. He's about to make bang-bang systems obsolete. It's less hard on your turbo too.

[Tle1993]

Watch the link I posted. He's about to make bang-bang systems obsolete. It's less hard on your turbo too.

yeah i watched that video and that is an amazing system.

[!Zar!]

Anti lag for me is 90% noise and 10% functionality.

[tunermt]

yes the rocket is a GREAT system and from my understanding it is just another secondary air injection system. The big difference is the rocket uses a "tuned" combustion chamber rather than just simply dumping the air into the exhaust runners pre turbo it dumps it into a nice (rocket) shaped chamber which strangely enough has some surprising similarities to the combustion chamber of some turbine engines :)

[Kingbaby]

erKaPDP6V3g


worth the watch

[bik]

I wanna use a antilag system here in chihuahua mexico, and see everybody around dive in to the ground when the poping start... and then get myself in a big trouble cause i bet police or cartels dont find it funny =/

hahaha sorry my bad english ^_^

[fckillerbee]

i've seen a dude on the freeway with anti lag on his STi. it was soooo fail it wasn't funny. Watching him merge, while braking...all you hear is pop pop pop pop....as the guy hit traffic...car still popping. I don't know how that didn't get annoying real quick.

[TheRealSy90]

I got to experience the ALS system RRE/Road Race Engineering has on their rally Evo V and it was amazing. Listening to it free rev and then about a half second then BAM! So awesome.

[tunermt]

I wanna use a antilag system here in chihuahua mexico, and see everybody around dive in to the ground when the poping start... and then get myself in a big trouble cause i bet police or cartels dont find it funny =/

hahaha sorry my bad english ^_^

haha i like your style ;)

i've seen a dude on the freeway with anti lag on his STi. it was soooo fail it wasn't funny. Watching him merge, while braking...all you hear is pop pop pop pop....as the guy hit traffic...car still popping. I don't know how that didn't get annoying real quick.

oh man anti lag + traffic = FAIL

[Toi]

WRC cars use ball bearing turbos with anti lag, you can use that journal bearing if ya want but that turbo will be toast in no time.

Anti Lag systems destroy exhaust manifolds and turbos, its a great system but its hard on the wallet!

[tunermt]

Yes most WRC cars use some VERY special Garrett turbos, one of the many modified features on these turbos is the cage holding the ball bearings is metal VS plastic (as found in the standard GT series).

[PoorMans180SX]

WRC cars use ball bearing turbos with anti lag, you can use that journal bearing if ya want but that turbo will be toast in no time.

Anti Lag systems destroy exhaust manifolds and turbos, its a great system but its hard on the wallet!

I know of several cars that use the typical timing retard anti-lag on hundreds of drag launches a year, and they all use journal bearing turbos.

It all depends on what type and how much anti-lag you're using. The WRC "rocket" style shouldn't be nearly so hard on your turbo.

[tunermt]

exactly ;) when used sparingly and set up correctly it doesn't have to destroy anything. I've used a very mild throttle kick and timing retard for some AL while sliding at a couple events in my S13. It works great but to be honest with the tiny T25 on the ka its not even needed. I'm looking forward to slightly more aggressive secondary air injection system on my current sr project.

[tunermt]

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/292225_371064222923850_919801598_n.jpg

[roboticnissan]

You guys are referring to something more than just installing a beeR limiter right?

[tunermt]

yes very much so ;) here you go my friend, get your learn on!

Turbo Antil lag systems explained (http://brewed-motorsports.blogspot.com/2012/07/turbo-anti-lag-system-aka-als.html)

[tunermt]

an evo getting in on the action

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/402774_440161456014126_49601407_n.jpg

[dustky43]

It's VERY difficult to get any useful information on anti-lag setups. Ive had many shops/tuners keep telling me that I dont need it, that I will burn up my exhaust valves, I will kill turbos etc. (I dont really care)

Took me a while to find a shop that was interested/willing to help me out.

Here's a video of my car from last year
Antilag Test- Nissan 240sx Vipec ECU tuned by Dent Sport Garage - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck-TOQiTOo0)

Car makes about 1 bar of boost at idle. Running a Group N style antilag, no additional parts are required other than for the ecu that supports it. The rotational idle is absolutely awesome to actually cool the car down in between runs as well. The downside is that with a Group N style anti-lag the motor never pulls vacuum so you will have no power brakes.

[ghoti]

Short Rally history cars
mXgWWNJVdYA

[tunermt]

Good to hear you found a shop willing to make it happen ;) Are you using the nissan Idle valve for this set up or did you switch out to say one of the Bosch units that are commonly used?

Great work my friend!

[dustky43]

The stock IAC is still used but it doesnt flow enough air by itself.
In order to get enough air to get the antilag to work well, the throttle is opened about 10% all the time. All I needed was a longer screw to replace the stock throttle adjustment screw.

[PoorMans180SX]

So are you using a spark cut system?

[tunermt]

hell ya throttle kick works great that's what i use on my ka at the moment as well.

[tunermt]

any one want to talk about using carbon monoxide as the fuel for a turbine engine?? ;)

[OutToWinPAHC]

It's built in to AEM EMS and it is a fun option

[PoorMans180SX]

Here's more on "The Rocket". It's a very complex system unfortunately for us.

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/2771/external-combustion-rocket-anti-lag-system-jdm-spec-c-impreza-sti.aspx

[tunermt]

that latest motoiq article had some great pictures to give insight.

[JohanM]

i cant seem find a jz true anti lag set up anywhere, everyone is calling 2 step anti lag online

[tunermt]

When you say iz do you mean 1/2jz engine?

Proper ALS will at minimum require tuning and throttle kick. The secondary air injection option is however the (hot) option ;)

[jamg]

i bought a bee's r for the sole reason of being able to shoot flames and getting the popping sound when i bounce off the rev lol

cuz i'm a ricer.

[tunermt]

i bought a bee's r for the sole reason of being able to shoot flames and getting the popping sound when i bounce off the rev lol

cuz i'm a ricer.

werd :bigok:

[drscooper]

so who here is actually running something like this?

[JohanM]

When you say iz do you mean 1/2jz engine?

Proper ALS will at minimum require tuning and throttle kick. The secondary air injection option is however the (hot) option ;)

yeah 1jz/2jz setups, and yeah im looking for the second option lol.

[tunermt]

Set up will depend on what ecu you have (some ems options offer more control than others)

[PoorMans180SX]

Anyone have some insight into what to use as a secondary air valve? I've seen a couple pics where people use wastegates, but I can't find too much info...

[cbcm2435]

if you run without a bov, can you use the throttle kick and use that extra air to keep the rpms higher between shifts? im going to be putting my PSM hmic on my car soon and just want to see if that is a possible option, of course my car needs to get tuned first :)

[jackasspyro2]

Anyone have some insight into what to use as a secondary air valve? I've seen a couple pics where people use wastegates, but I can't find too much info...


The 2012 Anti-Lag thread - NASIOC (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2381122)
first post shows a evo style system


i have been looking into this alot lately myself.glad to see others are interested in this kind of thing.

[tunermt]

Anyone have some insight into what to use as a secondary air valve? I've seen a couple pics where people use wastegates, but I can't find too much info...

There are a few options that will work well. I believe I have an extra set of fittings, hardline, and a valve if your serious shoot me an email [email protected]

[tunermt]

Can't believe i forgot to post the pictures of the secondary air injection set up. I'll have a couple videos up soon as well.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xYR6Wdc3MpI/UT2JWlRu7XI/AAAAAAAAB1Y/QQ4V6K7CoY0/s400/Brewed+Motors+rally+style+antilag+system+ALS.JPG

[PoorMans180SX]

That's the kind of stuff I want to see! That's tight.

[tunermt]

Thank you, now just need ti set it up on my SR20 as well.

[tunermt]

Customer just sent me a video of his S14 ka-t I tuned back in 2008.

Great to see the car is being properly abused (if only he put it in gear and dropped the clutch for us ;)

PzXLfmAEi9c

[shogun!]

This is a good use of ALS.

Ryan Woon's Supra - YouTube (http://youtu.be/OhF1I9-QDpk)

ryan woon in car - YouTube (http://youtu.be/fYX4XiQWYRU)

Ryan Woon and Cody Phillips 2 step in TX2K6 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/IhPY29WvAdM)

[S14DB]

It's VERY difficult to get any useful information on anti-lag setups. Ive had many shops/tuners keep telling me that I dont need it, that I will burn up my exhaust valves, I will kill turbos etc. (I dont really care)

Took me a while to find a shop that was interested/willing to help me out.

Here's a video of my car from last year
Antilag Test- Nissan 240sx Vipec ECU tuned by Dent Sport Garage - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck-TOQiTOo0)

Car makes about 1 bar of boost at idle. Running a Group N style antilag, no additional parts are required other than for the ecu that supports it. The rotational idle is absolutely awesome to actually cool the car down in between runs as well. The downside is that with a Group N style anti-lag the motor never pulls vacuum so you will have no power brakes.
The DSG 240 with the Evo 6 turbo with TME compressor and CHRA with Ti/Al wheel/shaft was the most awesome.
bN2szApaRTI

Then he went to a GT3076.
XvVp6Zf7jOQ
GUfrOlLmyV0
_U0c6MdtuZs
9EAJ1rnMKjE

[tunermt]

4g63 Vr4 with a mild Throttle bypass Rally style Antilag (http://brewedmotors.com/velocity-element/antilag-kit-throttle-kick-bypass-rally-style-als) system on AEM ems
f577XUQgTcY

[that_one_coupe]

Bump for BOOM BOOMS

[tunermt]

gotta love the boom booms!

[Briou]

Hey guys...I've been running an anti lag set up using the AEM v2 ecu for drag racing purposes. The problem I am having is that I have the boost I want while I'm sitting still, but when I dump the clutch the car falls on its face and looses all power, until about the 60' mark, then the power comes back in and it runs like a bat out of hell. I have the fuel, and spark limiters cutting off at 5mph, so I am wondering what that has to do with things...any input?

[S14DB]

Hey guys...I've been running an anti lag set up using the AEM v2 ecu for drag racing purposes. The problem I am having is that I have the boost I want while I'm sitting still, but when I dump the clutch the car falls on its face and looses all power, until about the 60' mark, then the power comes back in and it runs like a bat out of hell. I have the fuel, and spark limiters cutting off at 5mph, so I am wondering what that has to do with things...any input?
Better to hook up the clutch sensor. What are your RPM cuts?

[Briou]

Fuel Cut: 6100
Ign Cut: 6000
Rev Retard: 5500
Max VSS: 4mph

How do you go about hooking up the clutch switch to the anti lag system?

[S14DB]

Fuel Cut: 6100
Ign Cut: 6000
Rev Retard: 5500
Max VSS: 4mph

How do you go about hooking up the clutch switch to the anti lag system?You are going for 2-step by those settings it looks like?

[Briou]

Yeah pretty much...just for launching when I'm drag racing....I'm building boost just fine when I'm sitting still, the car just falls on its face when I let out on the clutch, unless I ride the clutch out a good ways...

[S14DB]

Yeah pretty much...just for launching when I'm drag racing....I'm building boost just fine when I'm sitting still, the car just falls on its face when I let out on the clutch, unless I ride the clutch out a good ways...
Fuel cut should be at your normal rpm limit(7~8k?).
Ign Cut and Rev retard should be the same. Try to lower it to the point where you are max boost building.
Max VSS: 2

[Briou]

Ok I'll give that a try and see where it gets me....thanks for the suggestions...

[tunermt]

Ok I'll give that a try and see where it gets me....thanks for the suggestions...

Hey Briou, If you email me a data log of launching (with "tuning" tab opened) and the map used for the log i'll do your first revision is free ;)
[email protected]

[tunermt]

Little testing on my s13Rally style anti lag tuning and system set up explained. (http://brewedmotors.com/blog/rally-style-anti-lag-system-tuning.html)
This car is using the secondary air injection kit (http://brewedmotors.com/antilag-secondary-air-injection-kit-rally-als) I found this particular set up doesn't need much keep the turbo boost happy. On ignition cut set up at the track or under heavier use you do start to get a good bit more noise and flame. I like the ignition cut option as it helps keep heat/stress off the exhaust valves.
vVGKvi9o1W4

[tunermt]

Throttle bypass ALS on the Galant, tuning it down a bit for the snow/ice.
o6LVI7kEVOo

[PoorMans180SX]

Seems like you're running pretty small turbos tunermt. Ever set this up on a car with something like a gtx3576 or Borg S300 series?

[tunermt]

Seems like you're running pretty small turbos tunermt. Ever set this up on a car with something like a gtx3576 or Borg S300 series?

yep have also ran similar als on s400 and large frame garretts. (of course those are normally on drag cars or large displacement engines.

some launch control with "drag style AL" and the same car with no lift to shift set up (actually works VERY similar to a throttle bypass style ALS).

ay3v_unmZ1I

c-0O1rMeGfM

[ilia]

This stuff's neat, but it's also neat to clutch kick a laggy car a bunch. That driving style can be very exciting.

[cmj]

I am planning the following system.

- Evo SAS valve.
- Vacuum canister / check valve
- PWM solenoid on VAV canister to SAS valve.

I have a couple questions. I assume the injection ports must be at a 90* angle to the manifold runners (to induce suction from charge pipe). Will the exhaust overpower the charge pipe or will the SAS valve act as a check valve? Also, can I utilize cyclic timing cut and add fuel or must I retard timing to ensure fuel gets to manifold?

[tunermt]

I am planning the following system.

- Evo SAS valve.
- Vacuum canister / check valve
- PWM solenoid on VAV canister to SAS valve.

I have a couple questions. I assume the injection ports must be at a 90* angle to the manifold runners (to induce suction from charge pipe). Will the exhaust overpower the charge pipe or will the SAS valve act as a check valve? Also, can I utilize cyclic timing cut and add fuel or must I retard timing to ensure fuel gets to manifold?

you might get something like that to work but it seems you have some confusion on how air makes it way into the exhaust. (pre turbo exhaust is under pressure, the exhaust manifold will never "suck" any air in it will try to do the opposite.)

[cmj]

you might get something like that to work but it seems you have some confusion on how air makes it way into the exhaust. (pre turbo exhaust is under pressure, the exhaust manifold will never "suck" any air in it will try to do the opposite.)

I was under the assumption that this was how the Mitsubishi system works? Charge pipe to SAS valve (actuated by ECU) and SAS valve to pre-turbo exhaust manifold?

Can you give me an explanation of how it is supposed to work?

[tunermt]

2jz powered S13 running a combination of SAI and TBP Antilag
RKmIvBw_AHI