SR20VE head with SR20DET oil pump

[Def]

Thinking about a VE head swap, but here's a question I haven't seen answered anywhere.

WHY exactly do some people say you need to swap in a VE oil pump/front cover and all the crap that goes along with that (machining crank pulley, oil pickup tube etc.)? Is the timing chain drive different? In which case I'd need a VE chain?

Or can one just run the RWD oil pump and be done with it. I can't see the slightly higher oil pump demands being that huge of a deal since the bypass opens so early in the midrange anyway (keeping you at ~60-65 psi when hot).

[jr_ss]

The VE pump is a much higher volume pump, just like the S14 is a higher volume pump than the S13. Only one stud will line up in the front pump cover if you use the S13 pump with the VE head as well. As far as I know the chains, sprockets/guides are all pretty much the same. SR20DE cam gears work for the Sr20VE cams, so I'd say it's safe to say they are...

[Yellow4g63]

The extra oil psi the pump makes also helps with the VVL activation.

[Def]

So it is a VE oil pump really necessary? Or just kind of one of those "it'd be nice" like 19mm wide rod bearings?

FWIW, I probably won't venture over 8.2-8.4k RPM with upgraded valve springs, and that'll be rare.

[TheRealSy90]

How about using VE pumps with an oem head just for the additional volume and psi?

[Yellow4g63]

So it is a VE oil pump really necessary? Or just kind of one of those "it'd be nice" like 19mm wide rod bearings?

FWIW, I probably won't venture over 8.2-8.4k RPM with upgraded valve springs, and that'll be rare.

Since it's part of the oem motor and it's a high out put pump I'd say it was necessary. set the limiter to 9k with aftermarket springs, The most I rev too is 9k but some people rev them to 9500-9600 with the oem pump (fwd n/a car). Also you need VE pistons if you plan to run a bigger cam other than the stock 2.0 VE cam. You could prob run SR16VE non N1 cams on the DET pistons but I have heard mixed reviews about this.

[Def]

Does the VE pump have a higher pressure spring in it? I know the gear flows more oil to hit the bypass sooner, but the DET pump in stock form hits the bypass stupid low at like 3-3.5k RPM with hot oil. After that it's a constant 60-65 psi.

I guess I'm just not seeing a huge need given the cam switch is probably going to happen quite a ways above where the bypass is flowing oil.


Would just a slight shim of the DET pump work out if the VVL stuff needs a bit more pressure to operate?

[Yellow4g63]

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm158/CoheedJV/DSCN1087.jpg
VE on the left GTiR on the right


http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm158/CoheedJV/DSCN1086.jpg
VE pump

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm158/CoheedJV/DSCN1085.jpg
GTiR

I think it might just be more than a higher pressure spring in the VE.

[Yellow4g63]

sr20-forum has a good VVL section and SR20forum has some good info in the archives too. I had a gauge on my VE it would read 90 something on cold start then 35-40 at idle then back up to 90 while cruising.

[Def]

sr20-forum has a good VVL section and SR20forum has some good info in the archives too. I had a gauge on my VE it would read 90 something on cold start then 35-40 at idle then back up to 90 while cruising.

My DET wasn't too far off from that with 5W-40 on "warm" oil. It was more like 20 psi at idle, and way above the bypass most the time driving on the street. On track it got hot enough to get the oil where the bypass was actually doing something.

On street it'd max out around 90-100 PSI consistently.

[Yellow4g63]

I never watched the gauge after 4800 so I couldn't tell you how high it hit once the VVL engaged. My gut tells me it's for the VVL, if you kill it then you could just run the DET pump.

[ShakotanGazelle]

Since it's part of the oem motor and it's a high out put pump I'd say it was necessary. set the limiter to 9k with aftermarket springs, The most I rev too is 9k but some people rev them to 9500-9600 with the oem pump (fwd n/a car). Also you need VE pistons if you plan to run a bigger cam other than the stock 2.0 VE cam. You could prob run SR16VE non N1 cams on the DET pistons but I have heard mixed reviews about this.

i wouldnt use SR16 cams, regular SR20VE cams at least. N1s will help it breathe a lot better in the top end, or you can use SR20VE 20V cams as well.
20V cams are or slightly longer duration than N1s, and offer less lift. which in theory should create a broader powerband.

i would never trust a DET oil pump to do a VET's job IMO.

[jr_ss]

I'd say for piece of mind, just run the pump... It's a little extra insurance for your motor. If you're going to do something, you might as well do it right.

[Def]

Can you do the grinding of the stock crank pulley by hand, just taking some out with a grinder, or is it something controlled to a tight tolerance that would need a machine shop?

I've seen diagrams that just show a slightly tighter fillet radius being needed.


The VE oil pickup tube is the bigger PITA in my eyes.

[Yellow4g63]

i wouldnt use SR16 cams, regular SR20VE cams at least. N1s will help it breathe a lot better in the top end, or you can use SR20VE 20V cams as well.
20V cams are or slightly longer duration than N1s, and offer less lift. which in theory should create a broader powerband.

i would never trust a DET oil pump to do a VET's job IMO.

sr16ve non n1's are bigger on the vvl lobe vs sr20ve cams.

[jr_ss]

Regardless, N1 cams are garbage for Turbocharged applications... Use the Factory P11/P12 cams and call it a day unless you want to go Kelford custom grinds.

Def, If you have access to a machine shop/lathe, I'd chuck it up in that and mill what you need off, I would imagine it would only take a few passes to get what you need.

I'd suppose you'd be able to get away with the S14 oil pickup. From what I can remember when I installed my VE pump cover, the Mazworx modified pickup has a larger OD pickup but the bolt holes are spaced the same distance apart as the DET's. Dont hold me to that because it's been awhile and I can't confirm it without disassembling my motor (not happening).

There's also a double o-ringed plug that goes into the back left of the motor (looking at the front cover). You'll see the one I'm talking about when you set the VE head on the DET block.

[Yellow4g63]

Regardless, N1 cams are garbage for Turbocharged applications... Use the Factory P11/P12 cams and call it a day unless you want to go Kelford custom grinds.



I didnt say N1's. SR16VE and SR16VE N1 are 2 different cams. As for the N1's sucking for turbo I have heard different and wont really know till I get there.

[jr_ss]

I didnt say N1's. SR16VE and SR16VE N1 are 2 different cams. As for the N1's sucking for turbo I have heard different and wont really know till I get there.

I know you didn't... I was just stating that they are no good. Look at the Maxworx Kelford cam grinds and compare them to the N1's. They are way out there. Not saying they are bad cams for the NA guys, just not optimal for the FI guys...

Honestly, I'd like to get my hands on a set of the 20V cams and I think that would just about do it. My motor previously made 491whp with an all stock setup. I think the higher lift and duration of the 20v cams would squeek out a little bit higher peak power.

[Ekin_s13]

How about using VE pumps with an oem head just for the additional volume and psi?

i wonder the same thing too have anyone have a answer for this?

[Yellow4g63]

You could call Mazworxs they might have the answer.

[jr_ss]

i wonder the same thing too have anyone have a answer for this?

One of the bolts in the head won't line up with the cover, a custom oil pickup must be made, and you'll have to machine your crank pulley. Is it really worth the extra work to do it? In my eyes no, but perhaps some see it as a valuable upgrade. Honestly though, why waste money when the S13 oil pump works just fine? If you want, there are PnP upgrades for it, instead of swapping the whole cover and machining of misc pieces.