Does anyone really notice a difference between coilover brands?

[raz0rbladez909]

I know many of us on this forum who actually want the best coilover possible for their application, on the other hand there are many people who are on a budget who want the best bang for their buck. Realistically spring rate being the same, do you think you would even notice a difference whether you were running on brand name or "Megan type companies"? Personally I used to run teins on my s13, but when I got my z33 I got a good deal on some Megan Tracks from a friend of mine who said he was really impressed by them, he too was coming from an s-chassis with tein super drifts. Not trying to compare the two brands straight up it made me wonder, what does everyone else look for when choosing their coilovers? I've heard many people recommend stance because you can buy any individual piece that you need in the US. Just got me curious if any of you could really tell the difference between a few cars all set up the same but with different coilovers?

[drifter_for_life06]

majority of coilovers are all made by the same manufacturer, then labeled differently. Main difference is gonna be in valving

[Schassis707]

I think most are considerably the same only difference is noted spring rate and some have more ways of damening force and ways to adjust them, the only thing I've noticed is the way people have them set up, my teins are on full stiff and for daily it hella bouncy but it turns way better and makes up for the bouncy ride :)

[5pecialist]

I'm mainly looking at price, since I am no longer a baller. If I can save $50 on non-adjustables... even better :(

[drift freaq]

Well coming from Tein Super Drifts is nothing to write home about. LOL I mean seriously Megan tracks are nothing special and neither are the Teins.

I have had several different brands and ridden on several different brands. The differences come down to valving and springs. FWIW Tein springs suck. There valving is not great either.
Megan is bouncy most all Japanese coilovers are as well.

There are a couple of budget brands that are ok Stance, Dmax, KTS. Tein Flexs are ok but I find problems with almost all of the above listed and I consider Megans to be below them.

Ride on some Koni's or Bilsteins sometime to notice a really good shock.

Ohlins are good but again designed for smoother roads. AST(aka Aragosta) are considered pretty excellent as well.



Tanabe 7's are supposed to be pretty damn good but you will pay for them. The higher end Japanese stuff stands chance of being decent but honestly for the most part all coilovers coming out of Japan/Korea/China are not going to be phenomenal. The Japanese ones are based on the fact that they have smooth roads, except for the poor folks in Okinawa. LOL
Given that they can get away with a stiff spring poor damper setup and have it ride ok.

The real test of damper is how it performs on a less than smooth road as that will really show its rebound and compression characteristics.

The best damper that will not kill you in pricing would be a Koni. Unfortunately to many of you are gun shy to the idea of setting up your own coilover setup to take advantage of it.
In fact some of you want to say they are not real coilovers because you set them up yourself.

Fact is your misinformed. a Coilover is technically what comes on our cars stock. As all coilover stands for is coil spring over a shock. That is the technical definition.


Oh and its a myth that you have to sacrifice ride quality for better handling. Bouncy does not mean better. It basically means shit. LOL

[5pecialist]

I see what you're getting at... but they are really "MacPherson struts", which are a commodity/disposable form of "coilovers". But this is all semantics... when someone asks for a Kleenex, I don't say "all I have is a tissue". Coilover has become slang like Kleenex (for better or worse).

The best "coilovers" I've experienced were on a Ferrari 360CS. Smooth yet able to handle high speeds & turns with ease. I have no idea who makes the OEM's for Ferrari. Bilstein I think.

[MrChow]

A coilover is an automobile suspension device. "Coilover" is short for "coil spring over strut". It consists of a shock absorber with a coil spring encircling it. The shock absorber and spring are assembled as a unit prior to installation, and are replaced as a unit when the shock absorber has leaked. This provides for optimal damping without torsional loads. Some coilovers allow adjustment of ride height and stiffness, using a simple threaded spring perch similar to a nut. More advanced adjustable coilover systems will use a threaded shock body, coupled with an adjustable lower mount for ride height adjustment, while an adjustment knob is used to adjust damping, commonly referred to as "stiffness." Spring rate also plays a role in stiffness.
Is that helpful??

But it's just like freaq said it comes down to the struts/shocks and how they are designed, built and valved.

[raz0rbladez909]

Is that helpful??

But it's just like freaq said it comes down to the struts/shocks and how they are designed, built and valved.

Well I know what a coilover is dude so thats really no help for this discussion. But what Drift Freaq explained pretty much was what I was looking for, i've heard great stuff about koni's and i've done a small amount of research in the past with this stuff. It just didn't make sense to me when people will knock someone for buying Megan, but then they'll jerk each other off to buy Stance when they probably couldn't tell the difference between the two anyway. I'd like to try a spring/shock combo down the line like Drift Freaq is referring to, I just couldn't understand if it was brandwhoring or if everyone could just tell a difference that I wasn't noticing. Thanks for the informative posts fellas

[GSXRJJordan]

If you can't tell the difference between Stance and Megan on the street and at different valving levels, /wrists.

I'm very impressed with my Tein Monoflex's on my FD with Swift springs but that's a ~$2400 setup. As Dave said, Tein springs suck, but the valving's not bad.

[ManoNegra]

I can tell the difference
I have experience on Tein HE - S13 and S14
Stances
Zeals B6
Koni Yellows on Ground Control set up
AST 4100 and 5000 series

worst being the HEs, best being the 5000 series ASTs
as has been said, bumpy crappy roads will set apart the good stuff over the crap
of them all, I felt the Koni Yellows were the best for a daily set up

I have a set of JDM ohlins for the S13 that need rebuilding
and a set of Zeal Function XDs for the S14 that I haven't gotten around to installing
it'd be interesting to find out how well those perform

[slider2828]

All springs suck on sub 2000 coils period....

I say middle of the road stuff stance or pbm or what not.... is lose lose... Your paying more money for stuff that is minutely better....

Low end stuff is win lose.... Cheap that is a win, the actual coil performance sucks but can go low and can do something with but still over all performance dept is a lose....

Go just a little above, which is KW V3, amazing coils for the price 1500 and is a lot better than stance and middle of the road stuff... so win win.... I venture might be better than monoflex, people say the springs on mono's are really soft.... especially from 350z guys and couple of other people....

Really expensive stuff like moton, aragosta, quantums, dg5's, Zeal Function X's.... lose lose for most... Pay a LOT of money but won't use it right.... Cause those things are all custom valving spring rate etc (THAT is what you pay for).... but 90% of peeps are never going to get that anyways, so lots of moeny for something peeps don't understand and test for.... so never going to get fully the benefits of something like that... so eh....

Personally rode in Stance's and I hated them..... Truthfully, I felt they were like glorified megan tracks.... But the guy had gr pro's maybe ssd? but it was blah....

KW's are nice

[MrChow]

Personally rode in Stance's and I hated them..... Truthfully, I felt they were like glorified megan tracks.... But the guy had gr pro's maybe ssd? but it was blah....

KW's are nice
Really? I love my GR+ Pro's. Did he even set the preload? The rear need to be set with some preload or they just suck IMO
Come drive my car Ken this week and UFO autox!!

[Genex626]

Yes u can tell the diffrence

[Def]

All the sub $1300ish "preassembled" coilover systems generally suck. There might be small differences in quality control/thought put into valving, but when you're using a crappy damper body, the end result is never going to be good. Plus the fact that they're using dirt cheap stuff in the first place shows just how much emphasis they were putting on "good performance" in the first place.

I'd put K-Sport, D2, lower to mid end Teins, Stance, KTS, Buddy Club, *insert all the other coilovers basically made by BC or the few other manuf* about equal. For the most part you are paying for the "name" and "more street cred" as you move up the ranks - not much else.

KW V3's are badass for a daily driven car that might see track usage every once in a while. So are Koni Yellows + a put together coilover setup. You can't go super slammed low, but the performance after spending anywhere from $700-1100(depending on how crafty you are with sourcing components) will blow away anything else you can buy off the shelf at that price point.

Koni 8611/8610's are a step up, in the same league as the middle end(4100/4200) AST's for end result IMO(only felt AST's on BMWs, but have a lot of suspension experience with them, so I'm pretty comfortable with that assessment). The advantage of sourcing your own setup IMO is using quality springs. I have about $1800 in my 8611/8610 setup(got some components used like the coilover sleeves and some springs), and with that I have springs I spec'd the rate on that are accurate within 2% stated rate, and dampers valved for actual track usage.

There is nicer stuff beyond that(Motons, possibly higher end AST stuff - never ridden in a car with it, JRZ - these are very nice etc). You're talking SERIOUS money at this point though, so you probably know quite a bit about suspension or are going to pay someone to tell you before you take this jump.

Each of the last groups I talked about have a clear jump in performance from the previous group.

[Corbic]

majority of coilovers are all made by the same manufacturer, then labeled differently.


Lies. I believe Ksport and Megan are the same/similar.

Apexi, Tein, Swift, Eibach, PBM, Auto Fortune, Penski, Koni, HKS, Tokico et al are going to have their own source of manufacture.

Godspeed are simply made from recycled garbage and stick-welded together by sla-ahemn forc-er cheap labor.

[Def]

Lies. I believe Ksport and Megan are the same/similar.

Apexi, Tein, Swift, Eibach, PBM, Auto Fortune, Penski, Koni, HKS, Tokico et al are going to have their own source of manufacture.

Godspeed are simply made from recycled garbage and stick-welded together by sla-ahemn forc-er cheap labor.


Most cheaper coilovers are made in Taiwan/China by one of a few manufacturers. Fortune Autos look like rebadged BC coilovers. They will do a run and anodize them whatever color and "brand" them.

Megan and Apex'i stuff is the same these days. Swift and Eibach don't even make dampers AFAIK.

[Corbic]

Most cheaper coilovers are made in Taiwan/China by one of a few manufacturers. Fortune Autos look like rebadged BC coilovers. They will do a run and anodize them whatever color and "brand" them.

Megan and Apex'i stuff is the same these days. Swift and Eibach don't even make dampers AFAIK.

Made in China/Twain and "are the same" are two very different things. Megan and Apexi are made in by the same factory, but they are not the "Same". There is a different window of tolerances and spec on them.

Swift, I was thinking of SPL which uses Swift springs.

Eibach makes coilover kits.

http://www.drivewire.com/images/shop/prodimage/images/eibach/E2738127713.jpg

I don't know anything about BC, but I do know that FA does have a ISO rating, which may not mean they make a better product, but it does mean they have a quality system in place which ensures repeatability and uniformity in their product. So I order a set, you order a set - they will be the same.

Here is a list of the Twain manufacturing companies that build coilovers and other aftermarket automotive parts.

http://www.manufacturers.com.tw/vehicles/Coilover-Manufacturers.html

You contact them, give them a spec, requirement and price and they will build you a product essentially. So, Tai Master Enterprise may make both BR and FA, but that does not make BR and FA the SAME, it just means its the same manufacturing facility, your product, customer service, warranty service et al can very greatly.

GM makes both the Cobalt and the Astra, both are priced similar, offer the same features and may even share a few components... but they are not the same car or brand.

[fliprayzin240sx]

I can tell you that my Cusco Zero1s (non-dampened adjustable) sucked compared to MRs but both those sucked compared to my Topline Aragostas.

[slideways2004]

who does this topic get started every other week?

The answer is as simple as what is your budget? If you can afford high end, buy high end. If all you can afford is Godspeed, then go for that.

A few of my team-mates have stance and I really liked the valving. Our cars are setup very similar so I went with Stance because I could afford them.

[Wake]

I wish I could afford Aragostas but I will be going with Apex NI drifts with swift springs.

I think 90% its going to take a combination of top manufacturers to get the proper results, you rarely see a car with only one brands parts on it, all the top time attack and drift cars use carefully formulated race results and use the info to decide on what parts are best for them. Rarely do you see all one brand on a company demo car, HKS is one of the few companies I can think of that only use in house parts and Im sure you can find some example of them using another company or having something built by another company.

[Def]

Made in China/Twain and "are the same" are two very different things. Megan and Apexi are made in by the same factory, but they are not the "Same". There is a different window of tolerances and spec on them.

Swift, I was thinking of SPL which uses Swift springs.

Eibach makes coilover kits.

http://www.drivewire.com/images/shop/prodimage/images/eibach/E2738127713.jpg

I don't know anything about BC, but I do know that FA does have a ISO rating, which may not mean they make a better product, but it does mean they have a quality system in place which ensures repeatability and uniformity in their product. So I order a set, you order a set - they will be the same.

Here is a list of the Twain manufacturing companies that build coilovers and other aftermarket automotive parts.

Coilover Manufacturers :B2BManufactures.Com For Taiwan and China Coilover Manufacturers Manufacturers and Coilover Manufacturers Suppliers (http://www.manufacturers.com.tw/vehicles/Coilover-Manufacturers.html)

You contact them, give them a spec, requirement and price and they will build you a product essentially. So, Tai Master Enterprise may make both BR and FA, but that does not make BR and FA the SAME, it just means its the same manufacturing facility, your product, customer service, warranty service et al can very greatly.

GM makes both the Cobalt and the Astra, both are priced similar, offer the same features and may even share a few components... but they are not the same car or brand.

The same factory = same basic damper design. The valving might differ slightly between the two coilovers, but they're the same for all intents and purposes. Which is what I originally said.

You can't polish a turd, and most of these cheap coilovers use bad designs with no R&D behind the valving. They are not digressive, and more than once I've seen cars go SLOWER by fitting a set of cheap coilovers than on stock suspension(it takes someone that can actually drive to push both to their limits).

Most people equate less body roll = faster. Not near that simple.


I realize you guys want to defend your "cheap" coilovers, as you were probably budget limited, but the fact is, they're all about equally crappy in the grand scheme of things. It also takes quite a bit of seat time and a sensitive butt dyno to even have a vague notion of if a damper is good or not. I've ridden in cars with most of the lower end stuff, and especially once you get someone that has no idea what they're doing turning the knobs, it can go from generally bad to downright horrible. Stiffer doesn't equal faster if you've got ridiculously high bump forces(the usual for these cheap needle valve coilovers without a digressive curve), and the rebound is far far too soft at low piston velocities if you get something that will let the suspension do its thing over bumps. Conversely, you run more rebound to try to control the body at low shaft velocities, and you'll find the high speed rebound is such that the first bump you hit in a corner you're going to skitter out an alarming amount.

It's stuff like that that'll make a "stiffer" suspension slower than a good condition stock setup.

[Def]

I wish I could afford Aragostas but I will be going with Apex NI drifts with swift springs.

I think 90% its going to take a combination of top manufacturers to get the proper results, you rarely see a car with only one brands parts on it, all the top time attack and drift cars use carefully formulated race results and use the info to decide on what parts are best for them. Rarely do you see all one brand on a company demo car, HKS is one of the few companies I can think of that only use in house parts and Im sure you can find some example of them using another company or having something built by another company.

I still have no idea why Swift springs are so popular with the Zilvia crowd on absolutely dirt cheap dampers - but here's a tip:

If you're going to spend one dollar more on suspension/coilovers and you're below about $1.5-2k invested, spend the extra money on better dampers. Having some super expensive springs with some JDM hype behind them or being 2 oz lighter is not going to make a big difference when you have a very poorly tuned damper trying to control the car.

Eibachs and Hypercoils are better springs than ANYBODY on this forum can "complain about" - and they're cheaper and readily available in all sizes and rates. Go that route and save yourself some money if you feel you need to change spring rates. But I'd still recommend better dampers over fussing with springs for whatever Zilvia reasoning thinks they'll make the car faster.

[Wake]

Oh I was talking about for my DD/part time drift car
I didnt realize we were talking about track use only. And Im planning on a completely different setup for my dedicated track car.
But since when are Apexi considered dirt cheap dampers?
Ive had a lot of people tell me they dont like em but none of those people have any experience with them and cant give me a reason why they dont like them. I mean its kinda hard to argue with the amount of R&D that goes into their products in my opinion.

and this is why chose to go with Apexi and i have compared them to other coils on S13s both as driver and passenger. (from the Apex'i website)
The ExV was designed to cater exclusively to US market vehicles. With this in mind, internal components have been specifically engineered to withstand harsher road conditions and increased wear caused by everyday street driving. The Expert Type V was developed based upon user requests for a high performance damper that doesn't carry a typical racing suspension price tag.

Also why havent I heard anyone in here say anything about PBM's?

[Sam_Well.13]

ive got Megan track's on my S13 and i love the way they ride...

ive also driven and rode my friends S13 with godspeed, another friends S14 with K-sport...

and i think out of the 3...the megan was the best bang for your buck...in my opinion.

im yet to try stance GR+ pro or even fortune coilovers

[Corbic]

The same factory = same basic damper design. The valving might differ slightly between the two coilovers, but they're the same for all intents and purposes. Which is what I originally said.


Hogwash. All struts/dampers/shocks are of the "basic same design". Its the materials used and the valving that makes the difference. Also, as I stated, another factor is customer service and warranty. That has value.



You can't polish a turd, and most of these cheap coilovers use bad designs with no R&D behind the valving. They are not digressive, and more than once I've seen cars go SLOWER by fitting a set of cheap coilovers than on stock suspension(it takes someone that can actually drive to push both to their limits).

Most people equate less body roll = faster. Not near that simple.



Actually, in everything I've read... no one gives a crap about "going faster". They want to slam their car (even though that rapes suspension angle and few (PBM being the only one really) seem to try and correct the issues with slamming their cars suspension.

Slammed car, and good street ride with long term durability. Also, when you say "Faster" are you talking on the street or track? That makes a huge difference in the type of damping and spring rate you want.

The problem with most of these coil-overs is the damping can not keep up, or is not designed for the springs being used. Megan Race Coils for example started out as just the standard Megan with harder springs.

As for R&D... do they really need any? Do you really think HKS or any of the other "name brands" do that much R&D into valving and spring rates? They offer a product that gets you in a ball-part and offers a good amount of alignment adjustment. once again, that's all 90% of us want and use.

So run out, buy that custom Penski set-up... which by the way, will be made off only the R&D you supply, shell out 10k and lets see "how much faster you are".

If you notice, all the "entry market" coil-brands have "competitive" race cars in various series, Ksport, Fortune Auto, Megan, et al. While their suspension may not be giving the winning edge, it's also not making them "uncompetitive" with the competition's set ups.

Also are you suggesting that Eibach is a BS knock-off set-up?

Please understand the market and customers before ranting and raving about inexpensive coil-overs next time.

-Cliff Notes

Variation in Quality and Customer Service from "Japanese style Coils"
Cost effective for Lowering Car, Changing Suspension alignment.
Customers what Slammed cars, not "optimum race setup- fast cars"

[Corbic]

Also why havent I heard anyone in here say anything about PBM's?
Because around here, PBM is god, yet their Coil-Overs are made in Twain and priced in accordance with all the other Entry Level set ups... and as such, we now have a problem.

It's cool to bash "entry/knock-off coil overs" but how can you at the same time praise PBM when their coils supposedly come from the same source as all the garbage?
:wtf:

Quality Control- Better hardware, better anodized finish, tighter tolerances specs requested by the Customer (ie PBM) from the source of manufacture.

Why is a iMac a better laptop then a Acer.. even though bother are made in China?

Apple has a higher demand of quality components then Acer.

[n240sxfnatic]

derp
MINI COOPER :: North American Motoring - Swift Springs dynoed (http://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/suspension/157535-swift-springs-dynoed.html)

[Wake]

Because around here, PBM is god, yet their Coil-Overs are made in Twain and priced in accordance with all the other Entry Level set ups... and as such, we now have a problem.

It's cool to bash "entry/knock-off coil overs" but how can you at the same time praise PBM when their coils supposedly come from the same source as all the garbage?
:wtf:

Quality Control- Better hardware, better anodized finish, tighter tolerances specs requested by the Customer (ie PBM) from the source of manufacture.

Why is a iMac a better laptop then a Acer.. even though bother are made in China?

Apple has a higher demand of quality components then Acer.

I dont know if you are arguing my statement or if we were arguing the same point, But my statement before was poking fun at the facts that you just brought to light about PBM, and no one talking bad about it.

When I referenced bigger companies (Apex'i, HKS) doing R&D is the amount of track and Race experience they both have as companies. You cant really compare a company that has had a track car for a couple years and managed to get some feedback to the manufacturer in Taiwan or wherever. I mean in my opinion the biggest reason these companies have been around for so long because they make quality parts that have been proven over and over.

But all in all I think we have the same point of view for the most part.

[mademedoit]

I would recomend my coilovers Tanabe Sustec S-OC thier made in Japan and I got them on ebay for only 750. They don't come with the front camber plates but you can buy a set of them seperate and then reuse the rear ones. Driving on the street on realy rough roads these are sometimes even more comfortable than the stock sus. ecept on tar strips you definitly feel those. Yet I autocross my car and their stiff enough that I don't think I would benifit much from aftermarket swaybars. I've had these for over two years now and when I adjusted the rear height this weekend the treads still look new and were easy to adjust, I think their stainless steel. I almost got tein basics but in pic's I saw of them insalled on someones car the black treads sometimes had surface rust. As for K-sport, PBM, and other aluminum coilovers, just my opinon but in certain componets that see alot of stress like macpherson struts I don't trust repacing a steel part with a weaker material. On the z32 rear aluminum uprights for instance look how much thicker they have to be than the cast iron ones 240's have.

Tanabe USA Inc. - Sustec Pro S-0C Coilover (http://www.tanabe-usa.com/s0c.asp?id=6)

The springs they use are the same as thier race car, quoted from their site...

PRO210 is a fixed diameter, linear high performance coil spring for use on adjustable coilover suspensions. It is used on all Tanabe Sustec Pro suspensions, and the technology is used in ALL Tanabe performance coil springs.
The PRO210 spring was developed through many years of R&D and tested on JGTC and N1 endurance cars on Japan's fastest circuits. Our involvement was necessary to produce a spring of extreme quality, durability, and lightweightedness, made to exact specifications to meet the needs of circuit racing. Various materials were tested, and it was found that SWI200 steel alloy would prove to be the most durable if manufactured properly. Materials such as titanium were tested, but titanium had exhibited shortened durability and was also very expensive. Through a highly advanced manufacturing process, an amazing tensile strength of 2100nm was acheived using only SWI200 steel alloy. No other manufacturer has been able to reach this level of strength in a coil spring-- even those that use more expensive materials to strengthen their coil spring.

In the JGTC GT500 class, our springs were used in the Takata Dome Racing Honda NSX.
Tanabe USA Inc. - PRO210 Max Custom Springs (http://www.tanabe-usa.com/pro210.asp?id=10)

They come like this and you get to have fun building them.
http://www.speedstar-racing.com/store/catalog/images/TANABE_S-OC.jpg

[Def]

Hogwash. All struts/dampers/shocks are of the "basic same design". Its the materials used and the valving that makes the difference. Also, as I stated, another factor is customer service and warranty. That has value.

You know nothing of damper design then. The pistons of the cheap Taiwanese junk are far different than even run of the mill Koni's/Bilsteins. Basic damper design (twin tube vs. monotube) isn't as big a deal as a well designed piston. Piston design differs at all damper pricepoints. If what you say is true, you could just toss in some different shim stacks into a cheap Taiwanese coilover and get a curve that looks like a JRZ or Koni 2817. Let me save you the trouble of googling it - it is impossible.



Actually, in everything I've read... no one gives a crap about "going faster". They want to slam their car (even though that rapes suspension angle and few (PBM being the only one really) seem to try and correct the issues with slamming their cars suspension.

Slammed car, and good street ride with long term durability. Also, when you say "Faster" are you talking on the street or track? That makes a huge difference in the type of damping and spring rate you want.

The problem with most of these coil-overs is the damping can not keep up, or is not designed for the springs being used. Megan Race Coils for example started out as just the standard Megan with harder springs.

As for R&D... do they really need any? Do you really think HKS or any of the other "name brands" do that much R&D into valving and spring rates? They offer a product that gets you in a ball-part and offers a good amount of alignment adjustment. once again, that's all 90% of us want and use.

So run out, buy that custom Penski set-up... which by the way, will be made off only the R&D you supply, shell out 10k and lets see "how much faster you are".

If you notice, all the "entry market" coil-brands have "competitive" race cars in various series, Ksport, Fortune Auto, Megan, et al. While their suspension may not be giving the winning edge, it's also not making them "uncompetitive" with the competition's set ups.

Also are you suggesting that Eibach is a BS knock-off set-up?

Please understand the market and customers before ranting and raving about inexpensive coil-overs next time.

-Cliff Notes

Variation in Quality and Customer Service from "Japanese style Coils"
Cost effective for Lowering Car, Changing Suspension alignment.
Customers what Slammed cars, not "optimum race setup- fast cars"

A bunch of drivel and "what if's" in here, but I'll respond to some of it.

Yes, most on here don't care about a decent suspension other than "how low it can go" - that's not what this thread is about though.

A well controlled ride via good dampers yields a good ride on the street and track.

Yes, the good damper companies put in quite a bit of R&D into new products. I imagine the Japanese companies that are on the better end of the spectrum tend to do the same thing. When HKS doesn't spring for tons of R&D it looks like they pick and choose the best North American/rest of the world manufacturer to make their stuff with HKS branding(like their turbos, or SARD with Stack dashes etc).

You don't need to spend $10k on a Penske setup to resounding destroy any of the "entry level" coilovers.

Sometimes a car/driver is somewhat fast against their competiion regardless of a bad setup, especially at the "amateur" level most of these cars are competing in. In fact, I'd say the average club racer car could probably hand the majority of these cars their ass since they're likely using something like a simple Koni/Bilstein setup.

I never said Eibach was a "BS knock-off setup," but obviously that pic isn't an S chassis coilover setup, and I'm pretty sure they don't make one for our cars. So what's your point other than trying to not look like an ass?


Please understand the market and customers before ranting and raving about inexpensive coil-overs next time.

I know *far* more about "the market" and "customers" than you do obviously. How long have you sold stuff to this community? I've been doing it for a few years now. Now, it's still designed to make you go faster vs. "slamming" your ride, but I'd say I have a very solid grasp on the community.

So let me sum it up for you. You're an internet keyboard warrior. You don't know much about suspension design/construction. You probably couldn't tell the difference between a Megan coilover vs. a set of 4-way JRZ's by riding in a car. And you're picking a fight with the wrong guy on this topic.

[c72c]

I can tell the difference
I have experience on Tein HE - S13 and S14
...
worst being the HEs, ...
as for feeling a difference, I can tell on a few, but they've also been on different cars, so they're not completely compareable.

just to add... This is where personal opinion comes in. I have HEs on my 14 and love em. I wouldn't want anything softer, even on the roads here. They are a little bouncy when I adjust the dampening tigher, but that's to be expected. Then again, I also fit some jeep springs on stock struts on my tempo back home.

and i'll sneak this in for those who complain about stiff suspension
'HEAD'-no matter how much it vibrates, rattles, shimmies or clanks, the tighter the stiffer, the better, I love my sportscars, the alternative, buy a prius.

[5pecialist]

and i'll sneak this in for those who complain about stiff suspension
I'd add "as long as it keep my tire in contact with the pavement". You could weld your frame to the suspension arms, but every little bump is going to bounce you up off the pavement & reduce the time your tires are applying force LOL

[Corbic]

I dont know if you are arguing my statement or if we were arguing the same point, But my statement before was poking fun at the facts that you just brought to light about PBM, and no one talking bad about it.

When I referenced bigger companies (Apex'i, HKS) doing R&D is the amount of track and Race experience they both have as companies. You cant really compare a company that has had a track car for a couple years and managed to get some feedback to the manufacturer in Taiwan or wherever. I mean in my opinion the biggest reason these companies have been around for so long because they make quality parts that have been proven over and over.

But all in all I think we have the same point of view for the most part.

On the same side, lock step.

[Corbic]

You know nothing of damper design then. The pistons of the cheap Taiwanese junk are far different than even run of the mill Koni's/Bilsteins. Basic damper design (twin tube vs. monotube) isn't as big a deal as a well designed piston. Piston design differs at all damper pricepoints. If what you say is true, you could just toss in some different shim stacks into a cheap Taiwanese coilover and get a curve that looks like a JRZ or Koni 2817. Let me save you the trouble of googling it - it is impossible.


Last time i checked, Koni 2817 are $1,800 a piece and only a cartridge. I would truly hope they are "better" then those "garbage $1,000 complete coilover sets"


Yes, most on here don't care about a decent suspension other than "how low it can go" - that's not what this thread is about though.


Actually my response directly goes towards the OPs comments/questions. He asked what we look for and if their is a difference in budget coilovers. Your comments about wanting to use expensive pro-am set ups are the ones out of line with the context of this thread, and really 98% of the users on this forum.


You don't need to spend $10k on a Penske setup to resounding destroy any of the "entry level" coilovers.

Sometimes a car/driver is somewhat fast against their competiion regardless of a bad setup, especially at the "amateur" level most of these cars are competing in. In fact, I'd say the average club racer car could probably hand the majority of these cars their ass since they're likely using something like a simple Koni/Bilstein setup.


So you agree that for the Average driver, the cost of the high-end coilovers would be lost on them as they don't have the skill to take full advantage of the more costly set-up? Thus, reinforcing the reason inexpensive options exist and why people are comparing and asking about them?

If I'm looking to buy a Honda Fit becuase I want a cheap reliable car that gets good gasmileage, but I ask if it's sportier then a Yaris... do you really need to say both are garbage and that a ZR1 is a better car? If we truly cared about Club/Spec racing, we would be looking at cars that are competitive (or required) in their prospective series. Thanks to the SCCA, the 240SX is not that competitive.


I know *far* more about "the market" and "customers" than you do obviously. How long have you sold stuff to this community? I've been doing it for a few years now. Now, it's still designed to make you go faster vs. "slamming" your ride, but I'd say I have a very solid grasp on the community.

So let me sum it up for you. You're an internet keyboard warrior. You don't know much about suspension design/construction. You probably couldn't tell the difference between a Megan coilover vs. a set of 4-way JRZ's by riding in a car. And you're picking a fight with the wrong guy on this topic.

So are you saying you sell coilovers that you feel are inferior and are openly ragging on them, or are you just a salesman for Koni/JRZ and I should take your comments as nothing but defensive seller dribble?

It does not take a Marketing Major to realize how popular the entry-level coilovers are with import owners and it doesn't take a Business Major to realize that people want to maximize their return on a $1,000 investment. Sure, Ksport are garbage... ok, but are they better or worse then Megan? Someone asking about Ksports and how to install them is not going to try and figure out what Koni's he needs, cut up the stock shock bodies, buy a set of ground control collars and camber plates and then try and dial that stuff in, all so he can slam his car on 18inch wheels.

As for if I could tell Megan's from JRZ... are you telling me that only a professional driver with years of experience could notice the difference an that any lay-man would fail to pick up on the subtle difference to which set-up actual rides and handles better?

[Def]

I'm growing tired of this... as it's obvious you have very little experience with this and are just trying to win an internet argument. It's difficult to debate something when someone has very little familiarity to even know when they are making ridiciulously incorrect statements. But I'll give it another quick go...

Last time i checked, Koni 2817 are $1,800 a piece and only a cartridge. I would truly hope they are "better" then those "garbage $1,000 complete coilover sets"


I thought you said there was little difference between the same damper type, just valving and shim stacks? So which is it? I used extreme examples to prove that you don't know what you're talking about... There are more subtle differences even at lower price points.



Actually my response directly goes towards the OPs comments/questions. He asked what we look for and if their is a difference in budget coilovers. Your comments about wanting to use expensive pro-am set ups are the ones out of line with the context of this thread, and really 98% of the users on this forum.

I think my response does as well. There *IS* a difference with nicer stuff. In fact, that doesn't really follow along with the price, as a set of Koni yellows *IS* a better performing damper than pretty much anything you'll find "preassembled" for an S chassis under $1500. A set of those shocks/struts costs about $500-600. Do the math.



So you agree that for the Average driver, the cost of the high-end coilovers would be lost on them as they don't have the skill to take full advantage of the more costly set-up? Thus, reinforcing the reason inexpensive options exist and why people are comparing and asking about them?

If I'm looking to buy a Honda Fit becuase I want a cheap reliable car that gets good gasmileage, but I ask if it's sportier then a Yaris... do you really need to say both are garbage and that a ZR1 is a better car? If we truly cared about Club/Spec racing, we would be looking at cars that are competitive (or required) in their prospective series. Thanks to the SCCA, the 240SX is not that competitive.

If you just want something to slam your car for hard parking at Wal-Mart with your "bros" why do you even care how "good" the dampers are? I'm assuming the OP and others interested in that question are not just posers, and might actually like to drive their cars. I'm addressing my responses accordingly. It doesn't take much track experience to tell what a good damper is, but the person talking about how "stiff" they feel on the street probably wouldn't know the first thing about what a good damper feels like. Would you like to put any other words in my mouth?



So are you saying you sell coilovers that you feel are inferior and are openly ragging on them, or are you just a salesman for Koni/JRZ and I should take your comments as nothing but defensive seller dribble?

It does not take a Marketing Major to realize how popular the entry-level coilovers are with import owners and it doesn't take a Business Major to realize that people want to maximize their return on a $1,000 investment. Sure, Ksport are garbage... ok, but are they better or worse then Megan? Someone asking about Ksports and how to install them is not going to try and figure out what Koni's he needs, cut up the stock shock bodies, buy a set of ground control collars and camber plates and then try and dial that stuff in, all so he can slam his car on 18inch wheels.

As for if I could tell Megan's from JRZ... are you telling me that only a professional driver with years of experience could notice the difference an that any lay-man would fail to pick up on the subtle difference to which set-up actual rides and handles better?

I don't sell anything I've mentioned in this thread - thanks for proving you again don't have a clue, and trying to "win the internet argument." If you don't like the truth, then I suggest you just ignore my posts, because I tell it like it is.

I do like how you talk about installing Koni yellows is something truly difficult though. If you're letting a 30-60 min install for the front struts stop you, then you just aren't cut out for this hobby.

I'm not a professional driver and I can tell the difference between a Megan and JRZ, so if that doesn't answer your "hypothetical" question trying to put words in my mouth then I can't help you.


So can we get beyond this simple "I just figured out what a coilover is" type exchange?


For the people looking for good info and not some keyboard warrior wasting bandwidth, check out my first post. It lays it out pretty well on what you can get at difference price points that have large differences in their performance groups.

[Corbic]

Blah blah blah

So with all your experience and vast knowledge which clearly dwarf mine (presume much?), then what is better.

Ksport or Megan.


:goyou:

[Def]

They're about the same. I'd go option C and get some Koni yellows and piece together a coilover setup for less than the cost of both of them.


...and there is no presumption on my part, your responses detail your lack of knowledge/experience about this topic very clearly.

[Corbic]

They're about the same. I'd go option C and get some Koni yellows and piece together a coilover setup for less than the cost of both of them.


...and there is no presumption on my part, your responses detail your lack of knowledge/experience about this topic very clearly.

About the same is not the same. Which is better? But clearly, your response shows a lack of detailed experience with them.

[!Zar!]

To answer this thread title, yes.

But, don't forget setup is extremely important when getting coilovers.

Buying them, and slapping them on isn't going to do much for you.

Setting preload, droop, rebound/,bound, spring, and ride hight all affect how your coilovers perform.

[Def]

About the same is not the same. Which is better? But clearly, your response shows a lack of detailed experience with them.

If you want a detailed response. I owned K-Sports for ~4 years and put about 1.5k track miles on them. It was obvious they did not have the same damping force for the same positioning of the "knob," and they were a balancing act between poor and really poor low speed rebound damping, and too much compression/rebound at higher shaft speeds. I eventually got them "sorta ok" with lots of testing and keeping a log book on suspension settings. The car was never settled over bumps and it was difficult to go beyond 9/10ths at the track because hitting slight undulations at different angles just made the car react very differently in the same corner lap to lap. They also suffered from damper fade as they got hot.

I've ridden in a couple of cars with Megans - they are just as bad as the K-Sports and feel remarkably similar(no low speed rebound, non-digressive valving so too much high speed damping). The Megan tracks are even worse - felt like the same damping, or even more high speed damping without anymore low end(that's bad), and ridiculously high spring rates. It generally skittered over anything and felt like it'd be slow when trying to put down fast lap times. Hardly a confidence inspiring "track" suspension.

Short story - they both suck. Koni yellows are probably cheaper with some minor work for the end user and will give vastly better results.


That good enough for you?

[ManoNegra]

as for feeling a difference, I can tell on a few, but they've also been on different cars, so they're not completely compareable.

just to add... This is where personal opinion comes in. I have HEs on my 14 and love em. I wouldn't want anything softer, even on the roads here. They are a little bouncy when I adjust the dampening tigher, but that's to be expected. Then again, I also fit some jeep springs on stock struts on my tempo back home.

and i'll sneak this in for those who complain about stiff suspension

How are the roads where you drive like?
I've done quite a bit of street and freeway driving on HEs here in Socal
and at high speeds I found them to be decent
at moderate speeds I couldn't look out my rear view mirror since the shaking of the mirror gives me a headache (I'm not joking)
at low speeds going over cracks and uneven roads felt like driving on train tracks

What other coilovers have you ridden on to compare?

[az_240]

As mentioned earlier how a coilover rides depends on how it is setup and what else you have on the car.

Example... if you have polyurethane bushings in the uprights/LCAs it will be a shitty bouncy ride at low/medium speed once the grease dries up.

So one guy might have Ksports on stock bushings that feel decent while another guy has Megans that ride like shit because he has dried up bushings that bind.

Kinda off topic but has anyone figured out how to get the Koni setup to go lower?

[slider2828]

You know what.... Seriously... Yes there is a difference.... Will the OP notice NO.... Because he doesn't have the experience driving in different setups, so whatever you tell him he can hear it, but it will NEVER transfer into realistic feel...

Its like doing multiplication... YOu can tell him to memorize it, and it won't mean shit.... He will have to learn how to apply it to see that its useful....

So in the end... get something cheap.... Wear it out... Then go to something else.... Nothing wrong with that... Suspension settings is a learning experience... Its ok, get megans or stance, just none of that non name ebay stuff.....

OP just try something, there is nothing wrong with getting not the best suspenion, but try something.... done.

[supervenom]

I have found that when the difference in price between units is $200-$300, the differences are not very noticeable. It is when yu try out the very high end set-ups that you feel a bigger difference. Unless your building a D1 car, Megans or K-Sports are fine. Dollar for dollar that is...

[raz0rbladez909]

You know what.... Seriously... Yes there is a difference.... Will the OP notice NO.... Because he doesn't have the experience driving in different setups, so whatever you tell him he can hear it, but it will NEVER transfer into realistic feel...

Its like doing multiplication... YOu can tell him to memorize it, and it won't mean shit.... He will have to learn how to apply it to see that its useful....

So in the end... get something cheap.... Wear it out... Then go to something else.... Nothing wrong with that... Suspension settings is a learning experience... Its ok, get megans or stance, just none of that non name ebay stuff.....

OP just try something, there is nothing wrong with getting not the best suspenion, but try something.... done.

We'll I appreciate your input and consider it constructive criticism in a way, because in fact you are correct that I don't have so much experience driving many different setups, because honestly i'd be wasting alot of coin trying to compare each of them and set them all up the same. But that doesn't mean I can't learn a thing or two from someone else, simply from them answering a question. My main goal in asking this question was more along the lines of why people buy the brands they buy, and what they look for in them since in fact there is little difference in the lower end coilover realm, as well as I wanted some more experienced peoples input on what they find to be a good setup. Like DEF for example, gave a good outside view that i'd never thought to hear of anyone on Zilvia mention koni shocks with an aftermarket spring, which is something i'd like to look into. I'm no expert and not going to pretend to be, which is why I have asked, and I have gained some knowledge from this post and figured it'd be able to help others when it comes to more than just hardparking these cars. Because like mentioned before 98% of people on here do

[Def]

Kinda off topic but has anyone figured out how to get the Koni setup to go lower?

You can drop them in the housings slightly, but that's still probably not enough for most people here with the ride heights they run.

There might be a shorter Koni that'll fit in the housing that'd be worth looking into.

Or you could just get some 8610's in veilside180sx's housings up front and something like Koni yellows in the rear. Bolt-in setup, and you can go VERY low on the front housings. My tire is hard up against my strut tower and I still have plenty of travel on my 8611's up front.

[slider2828]

We'll I appreciate your input and consider it constructive criticism in a way, because in fact you are correct that I don't have so much experience driving many different setups, because honestly i'd be wasting alot of coin trying to compare each of them and set them all up the same. But that doesn't mean I can't learn a thing or two from someone else, simply from them answering a question. My main goal in asking this question was more along the lines of why people buy the brands they buy, and what they look for in them since in fact there is little difference in the lower end coilover realm, as well as I wanted some more experienced peoples input on what they find to be a good setup. Like DEF for example, gave a good outside view that i'd never thought to hear of anyone on Zilvia mention koni shocks with an aftermarket spring, which is something i'd like to look into. I'm no expert and not going to pretend to be, which is why I have asked, and I have gained some knowledge from this post and figured it'd be able to help others when it comes to more than just hardparking these cars. Because like mentioned before 98% of people on here do


I completely agree with you, but in the end, EVERYONE's driving style is different. What suits one person may not suit the other. Suspension feel is going to be different from car to car, such as weight, height, balance, other suspension modification. There are just WAYYYY to many factors to say one is better than another on any car.

Def's koni with custom housings been talked about for like 3 years now? Its not new at all and there is a thread dedicated to this custom suspension for awhile now. But seriously how are you going to know the difference if you have nothing to compare it except other people's word.

All I am saying is get out there and drive, until you have an idea of where you want your car to be and feel. Also ride in different cars and it will give you a perspective on where you want it to be.....

Ride alongs on the track with racers or very very experienced car drivers will give you can idea on where you want to be.... A good S2000 driver with a well setup car is what I think a 240sx should feel like... Not tail happy, but super balanced where over speeding into the corner and the car will automatically scrub speed and all that good stuff....

More experience will give you a better perspective in the end.... Right now S2000CR is where I want the S chassis to be. Granted I was riding with an S2k Cup car driver, still it was a great experience.... Also E30's are sick tooo...

By no means am I criticizing you, but rather just giving people view point about how comparing suspensions is just going to just wasted time.... Like another thread said, get something that you can afford that has reasonable quality.... If you can't drop 1600 into a suspension but rather 8-900 then get MR's.... If you can save up to 1500 or 1600 then Def or KW's are great....

The driver makes the car faster....