JWT vs Enthalpy comparison - A bit more info

[R.S. Enthalpy]

I recently have looked back at the post here and on other sites about the JWT vs Enthalpy 2871 comparison and there is something that was omitted, most likely unintentionally.


I think we need a little background here ....


Matt's (test car) ECU came back with small damage twice.. but was fixed..
When things were working correctly Matt and Cody told me that the car was running very lean.. so they got a series of retunes to try 10% and 15%...

Matt told me they stuck with the 15% richer tune and when he dynoed (at an earlier time) the AFR's were in the 11's and I told him he could make at least 10 rwhp or more.... because my tunes are spot on 12:1.... The 15% tune was definately robbing some power.

So here are the email exchanges ....


Reply |R.S. Enthalpy to MATTHEW
show details 11/14/09

Matt,
Good to hear that you finally got the issues figured out. Just out of curiosity which tune did you end up using ? What are your AFR's now ? Any dyno results ?

Thanks,
Martin


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- Show quoted text -
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 9:03 PM, MATTHEW F wrote:
Hey guys,
My car is running really good now. Thanks a lot i really appreciate it. I knew you guys knew this because you were in contact with Cody Ace.

Thanks,
Matt


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MATTHEW to me
show details 11/14/09

We ended up using the 15% fuel increase and i believe the fuel pressure is somewhere around 50psi. AFR is in the 11's under WOT at 20psi. Dyno results were 380hp/310torque with it blowing out spark in the upper rpm's....Ill look for a dynograph and upload it if i can.

Thanks,
Matt


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R.S. Enthalpy to MATTHEW
show details 11/15/09

Matt,
Can you give me a run down of your setup.. I want to make sure that tune is 100% spot on for what you are running. The graph looks good.. but I want to make sure that you are not missing HP you could be making. Is there any way you can get a dyno plot of the AFR's as well ? Can you also ask them to do it w/o SAE correction and smoothing 0 ? That chart might seem like it's lost power, but don't take it to heart... it's just for my purposes, so I can adjust your tune.



Thanks,
Martin


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MATTHEW F to me
show details 11/16/09

Martin,
the setup
s13 sr20det (stock bore)
z32 maf
gt2871r .64 turbo (honed)
72lb injectors
jwt s3 cams
freddy intake manifold
20psi of boost
stock exhaust manifold (extrude and honed)
4.40 gears in the rear (not sure if this would make less hp or not)
stock coilpacks still
the dyno plot doesnt have AFR's cuz the sniffer was not working at the dyno, but i can tell you that the afr was in the 11's the whole time from me watching it while the pull was done.
i think the smoothing was on 5 when it was done.


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R.S. Enthalpy to MATTHEW
show details 11/17/09

Matt,
That looks damn good for a 2871 on pump. You would probably make 10 more by leaning it .5 AFR's , if you have that much room right now. Just keep it under 12.0:1

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So basically the car is running on a modified richer tune from what I usually write for that setup at the request of Matt and Cody.. hence the loss in power. From what I was told the car runs in the 11's, where it should be drilling 12:1 perfectly like my tunes do. This will account for all of the difference if not more.

If the car were to run the tune I intended with no correction, the result would have been where it should be.

JWT tunes and my tunes are the best out there, but comparing one of theirs to one that IS NOT the way I intended, at the request of the customer is just not a fair comparison.





I wish that these facts were prefaced before this post was published around on forums. It is hard to take this with a grain of salt when you are in my shoes and had to issue $1600 for prepays in the last 2 weeks and the primary reason given is "I recently read/heard that your tunes don't make the best power etc..."


Matt and Cody are good guys and I know they never intended for this to come around and actually hurt me and my business in the way it has. Although I have a ton of dynos comparing my tunes to JWT in my favor, I never have posted them and never will.. and am compoundly frustrated at the fact that one of my tunes that was intentionally turned down was used in such a highly publicized test.

As far as my tunes go... the fact is this... I write each tune individually and can assure everyone that they produce the maximum safest amount of power on the market, as long as you are running what I originally intended.




R.S. Enthalpy

[codyace]

Scott/Martin/Chris:

(from the very first post, in bold)
Now before this turns into a mud slinging contest, it is not what I set this out to be. Enthalpy and JWT are BOTH top notch tuners, and both are two excellent sources for out of the box, turn key tunes that make kickass power while remaining livable and economical. I would hesistate for a MOMENT to suggest either of them, as I personally have had great results with both companies.

As before, my post wasn't to show which was better than the other, simply to show that both of you guys have some excellent options for 90% of SR swap owners out there.


The fact that this may have hurt sales was THE LAST bit of my intention by any stretch -- in fact it was not my intention in the least, and I would never do that. As a small time 'SR parts owner' (not to say you guys are small term by any stretch, you guys pump out cars all the time) I can understand this and wish this this wasn't the case - certainly it was something I overlooked on my end, and not somthing that I wished to become of this (again as evident in a few posts where I exclaimked that both ECU's will rock socks...to the point of me bashing a new member (uncommon for me) to show them that both 'rom tunes' outperformed his custom standalone.

As also from my very first post

We all can agree that an off the shelf tune from either is going to be conservative, just for safety sake...nobody wants the reputation of making HP, but melting pistons ya know?

I don't think there is a reason to EVER say a Enthalpy or JWT tune was to blame for blowing a car up...I find that nearly impossible to believe. If I didn't believe in your guy's product I wouldn't work on as many friends cars as I have with your ECU.



End of the day, I overlooked the business aspect of this and do apologize for this -- We've talked quite a bit in the past, and I'd hope to think (even as you said in your post) that you realize this wasn't an attack on tuner vs tuner, and more about the fact that between you and Clark, you simply can't go wrong .... especially at your new price point for the ECU.

If you want to continue on here, or PM that's fine. Again, my comparsion was simply that - namely to prove that both ECU's will make power, and that my combination of parts will make tire smoking power regardless.

[S14DB]

Wow, that sucks to lose business over people acting like sheep.

See this a lot on the VW/Audi forums with the Unitronic band-wagoners(ZOMG it makes the most powar!). Even though other company's make tunes that have been proven for years.

This has been my biggest problem shopping for tuners. Most of them are like come on down we guarantee we will make more HP then anyone else. When I explain to them I don't want something advanced to hell to make 10 more hp. I want a good AFR and the motor to last. I am paying for a tune to make my motor last Not rebuild every year.

[R.S. Enthalpy]

I think that is the thing that no one realized would happen... Some people go exactly by the numbers..

[Omarius Maximus]

Wow, that sucks to lose business over people acting like sheep.

See this a lot on the VW/Audi forums with the Unitronic band-wagoners(ZOMG it makes the most powar!). Even though other company's make tunes that have been proven for years.

This has been my biggest problem shopping for tuners. Most of them are like come on down we guarantee we will make more HP then anyone else. When I explain to them I don't want something advanced to hell to make 10 more hp. I want a good AFR and the motor to last. I am paying for a tune to make my motor last Not rebuild every year.

Unitronic sucks. Eurodyne/Chris Tapp ftw.

[codyace]

Wow, that sucks to lose business over people acting like sheep.

See this a lot on the VW/Audi forums with the Unitronic band-wagoners(ZOMG it makes the most powar!). Even though other company's make tunes that have been proven for years.

It's SUPER shitty on that side - I can vouch first hand working on friends cars and even talking to my tounger brother and his friensd, of how cut throat all of those 'tuners' are with their products.

I love hearing stuff like 'Well XYZ makes 10 more HP than ABC, so they rock'...without ever considering:

-Difference of Dynos
-Difference of conditions between both too examples
-Differences of cars

Man does it piss me off.

The same can easily be saidhere - people are more considered with stroking their ego with 'the chip that makes more' withotu considering the other parts going into My car, Matts, the Sentras, and the other cars we have built with very specific parts.

Edit: The same canbe said for the Subaru/Evo guys fighting over turbo choices and things that net to about 10-15 hp difference, but all sorts of wacky flanges, and manifolds. (And I hate how they they argue in CM^2 dumb shit).




I think that is the thing that no one realized would happen... Some people go exactly by the numbers..

That's the thing - people all to often get caught up in specific dyno numbers, and never look at anything else - and that's why even in the thread I said a million times, that either way you go, used or new with both, is going to kick ass and work better than the overwhelming majority of other tunes out there.


Like mentioned above, I will be getting this LC1 and Map sensor thing working soon, so I'll even be able to further look into properly logging these cars for everyone. There is also another somewhat local member that is willing to come down (Enthalpy ECU car, similar mods as myself and matt) for another log comparison.

Again, I'm not hear to take business away from either - I dont' get paid by JWT (which people have always accused me of) at all, and have done PERSONAL business with both shops with great success. If anything I can say this - both are fantastic tuners, both know their shit, and both aren't out to hurt anyone - If anything, The Enthalpy guys are MUCH faster with processing tunes to customers, that is for damn sure - the weekish turnaround is nice.