High HP SR Spark Blowout....Discussion/Solutions

[jspaeth]

Disclaimer: After about 5 weeks of troubleshooting, the LAST thing I did was to try to back-probe all of the ground wires going into the ECU to check for continuity with ground.....all of them checked out just fine.

However, after doing this, the issue was resolved.....it must have ultimately been an ever-so-loose ground-wire pin into the ECU that was causing intermittant contact, or something, because immediately after doing that, the issue went away and never came back


Continue reading if you are having the same symptoms....there is a good deal of discussion in this thread, and maybe you can see the long list of things I checked in the process and find something you forgot.


9/26/2010


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I was wondering if we could get a discussion going about what types of power your car has and what types of plugs/gaps you run to prevent blowout of spark.


My car used to have 330 whp and never blew out spark with 17 psi on a GT2871R.

Now, I am up around 370-380 or so.....running around 19-20 psi.


In the winter, I was fine, but now that it is warm out, if I floor it, it hits 20 psi and starts to sputter and die around 600-6500 RPM in the higher gears (3rd and 4th).

I am running BCPR7ES-11 (I think that is right)....they are coppers, gapped to 0.028

I am also running stock coilpacks with new amplification device or anything, just stock ignition setup.


Is anyone else with such a setup on an SR seeing blowout issues (seems to have come on when it got hot out)?

What gaps are you guys running to avoid blowout, or what types of ignition modifications?

I'd like to hear what works and what doesn't work for specific setups.


I don't want this to be people just giving answers.....only post if you have first hand experience with a specific setup.

NO IT IS NOT KNOCKING....I HAVE A STANDALONE, TIMING IS NOT BEING PULLED, ETC ETC.....

[j87w]

Are you sure your not knocking and its pulling ignition timing to compensate? It could be as you say it happens under.a good load (3rd gear and up) and when the air temp is warm.

[jspaeth]

Are you sure your not knocking and its pulling ignition timing to compensate? It could be as you say it happens under.a good load (3rd gear and up) and when the air temp is warm.


Wow. You must not read very well. I SPECIFICALLY said please don't post unless you can tell me about your specific setup and what you are running as far as ignition. I know what it is going on with my car.

I am running a standalone fyi, there is no "pulling timing", and I have a WORKING knock sensor.......NO it is not knocking, it is blowing out spark.


PLEASE DON'T POST QUESTIONS.

Post what ignition setup you are running on a high hp SR setup and how you prevent blowout.

[HemiCharger]

Wow. You must not read very well. I SPECIFICALLY said please don't post unless you can tell me about your specific setup and what you are running as far as ignition. I know what it is going on with my car.

I am running a standalone fyi, there is no "pulling timing", and I have a WORKING knock sensor.......NO it is not knocking, it is blowing out spark.


PLEASE DON'T POST QUESTIONS.

Post what ignition setup you are running on a high hp SR setup and how you prevent blowout.

I have experienced it in my 340ish whp 240

I have a gt2872r .64 a/r
740cc nismo injectors and as you know a apexi power fc
I am not familiar with BCP NGK plugs I run BKR7e-11 which I regap to around .028. At 18.5 lbs that works best. I run NGK BKR7e or 7e-11 plugs and have factory coil packs. I also change my plugs every 3 oil changes or around 10 thousand miles since they are cheap like a 1.50 a plug. When I ran the 11s gaped to .044 they would blow out like crazy in high boost since I have switched or regaped them to .028. I have no problems. Hope this helps.

[slider2828]

I thnk 7's are one step too hot... In accordance and my experience 8's are perfect same is said on Phase2motortrends site when ordering plugs

I am runing built 86mm block, HKS 264/264 step 1, bc head stuff, 2871R .86 ar running dyno'ed and dailyed on 17.5 psi making 330WHP on a Dynodynamics so shoudl be close to 380 and I get about 310lbs of torque on the DD. I use BKR8EIX, which are the iridiums. Gap also at .028... Stock coilpacks as well with a Sun Auto GT Power Thingy....

I never get sputter on the track or daily... you can easily tell heat range issues. The grounding strap which is the thing that looks like a hook over the eletrode, that is the part you can tell the range. If its too hot the strap is all white, the whiteness should only reach the bent of the strap.... Done.... Never had problems....

Also in terms of negative setups. I relocated to full size battery to the rear. 2 gauge monster cable front terminals to back. 2 gauge battery ground o chassis. All grounds in the front lead to one point on the chassis, with homemade grounding kit, head, block, intake manifold, strap grounding point for coilpacks. Also Smaller ground leads (16,14,or 12awg) such as ignitor grounds is distributed to a grounding block then linked to a single point with 8awg grounds to where my other grounds are. Better the grounds the better the spark....

[fliprayzin240sx]

Thats what I was gonna say, a good rule of thumb is for every 100hp above stock, you go down another heat range with NGKs. Stocks are 6s at stock 180 whp ish. You are way more than double that, I'd go down to 8s and gap them down to .030. If its blowing out, start tapping them down closer to .025 if need be. I've got a guy out here thats been building SRs for over 20 years. He said from his personal experience, stock OEM coilpacks/igniters can handle up to 600hp with no issue. No point of upgrading coilpacks.

On my GT3582 at 1.8bar, I'm still running stock S15 coilpacks with NGK Irway Iridiums 9s. Already came pregapped at .030 so I never touch them. Only fucking catch is they cost like $25 a pop out here with the shitty exchange rate. Will probably order some copper plugs and see if they work just as good. Figured if coppers work, I'll just change them more often like I used to do in the states (roughly every other oil change but they only freakin cost 1.25 per plugs).

[Z U L8R]

i used to run bcpr7es @ .028 in everything, then i switched to #4644 BKR7E @ .028 because they're V-attackPower

never had a problem with those at 22psi 440hp/380tq running wasted spark buick gnx coil on my rb25

however for my 6-800hp e85 2j build i may go 8 or 9 heat range

Dave

[jspaeth]

I thnk 7's are one step too hot... In accordance and my experience 8's are perfect same is said on Phase2motortrends site when ordering plugs

I am runing built 86mm block, HKS 264/264 step 1, bc head stuff, 2871R .86 ar running dyno'ed and dailyed on 17.5 psi making 330WHP on a Dynodynamics so shoudl be close to 380 and I get about 310lbs of torque on the DD. I use BKR8EIX, which are the iridiums. Gap also at .028... Stock coilpacks as well with a Sun Auto GT Power Thingy....

I never get sputter on the track or daily... you can easily tell heat range issues. The grounding strap which is the thing that looks like a hook over the eletrode, that is the part you can tell the range. If its too hot the strap is all white, the whiteness should only reach the bent of the strap.... Done.... Never had problems....

Also in terms of negative setups. I relocated to full size battery to the rear. 2 gauge monster cable front terminals to back. 2 gauge battery ground o chassis. All grounds in the front lead to one point on the chassis, with homemade grounding kit, head, block, intake manifold, strap grounding point for coilpacks. Also Smaller ground leads (16,14,or 12awg) such as ignitor grounds is distributed to a grounding block then linked to a single point with 8awg grounds to where my other grounds are. Better the grounds the better the spark....

Thats what I was gonna say, a good rule of thumb is for every 100hp above stock, you go down another heat range with NGKs. Stocks are 6s at stock 180 whp ish. You are way more than double that, I'd go down to 8s and gap them down to .030. If its blowing out, start tapping them down closer to .025 if need be. I've got a guy out here thats been building SRs for over 20 years. He said from his personal experience, stock OEM coilpacks/igniters can handle up to 600hp with no issue. No point of upgrading coilpacks.

On my GT3582 at 1.8bar, I'm still running stock S15 coilpacks with NGK Irway Iridiums 9s. Already came pregapped at .030 so I never touch them. Only fucking catch is they cost like $25 a pop out here with the shitty exchange rate. Will probably order some copper plugs and see if they work just as good. Figured if coppers work, I'll just change them more often like I used to do in the states (roughly every other oil change but they only freakin cost 1.25 per plugs).


Could either of you fellas give me a part number or stock number?

I am looking for heat-range 8 copper plugs with the correct thread pitch yadda yadda yadda....

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.....will give it a shot and check grounds and shit.

[whitey240]

I have 490 whp, AEM Coils, Stock Ignitor. I am running with NGK BKR8EIX Plugs gapped at .028. No issues with blow out when revving to 8200.

[jspaeth]

I have 490 whp, AEM Coils, Stock Ignitor. I am running with NGK BKR8EIX Plugs gapped at .028. No issues with blow out when revving to 8200.


Thank you.

I just spent the past 2 hours researching NGK spark plugs.

It looks like all of the V-power ones I can find that are applicable are bkr7e and bkr8e.

However, both of these are ISO length, not JIS length, and I have found some people have said that they experience poor contact between coilpack and top of spark plug due to this length difference.


Right now, I am using BCPR7ES, and want to upgrade to BCPR8ES, but they no longer make these!

A close alternative would be:


BPR8ES



However, this plug has a 13/16" hex, rather than the usual 5/8".


Does anyone know if this will fit down itno the plug hole? Or is the hex area too big and it won't fit down there?



Damnit I want to run 8s, but there aren't any that are compatible except for Iridiums or Platinums, which are $$$

[j87w]

Wow. You must not read very well. I SPECIFICALLY said please don't post unless you can tell me about your specific setup and what you are running as far as ignition. I know what it is going on with my car.

I am running a standalone fyi, there is no "pulling timing", and I have a WORKING knock sensor.......NO it is not knocking, it is blowing out spark.


PLEASE DON'T POST QUESTIONS.

Post what ignition setup you are running on a high hp SR setup and how you prevent blowout.

I can tell. :rolleyes:

[jspaeth]

I can tell. :rolleyes:

Huh? I guess you are trying to be sarcastic.

It is not knocking. I have a wideband, AFR gauge, standalone, I can see timing, etc etc.

There is no pulling timing due to knocking with my setup, and I knew that ahead of time.

I simply want to know what ignition/sparkplug setups people with hp/turbo setups similar to mine people are running.

[VQMaxFan]

I don't think a 13/16 socket would fit in our spark plug wells

[4x4le]

I asked hemicharger about this and he said you should try shell v-power gas and its nitrogen enriched formula will clean your valves and reduce blowout, its on the commercial.

(thats an inside joke so no hate)


Anyways, My setup isnt going to help you but I run copper bkr6e gapped at .028 and have the splitfire ignition. 7s didnt seem hot ENOUGH on e85 but back when I was on gas they did seem too hot. I dont know how much the splitfire ignition comes into play with helping blowout but it has made it so I can start the car in the winter....

Like I said, my setup isnt going to help YOU but I wanted to make a v-power reference

[rb25_s13*CHUKI]

well on My evo 8 I ran a bkr7 Ngk plug, Gapped them at .24 as my tuner suggested running a GT3076R @ 30 Psi on 101 octane. Idk IF that will help you out at all. Try gapping the plugs at 24.

[fliprayzin240sx]

NGK 8/9/10s

NGK Spark Plugs 4554 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NGK-4554/)

NGK Spark Plugs 5238 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NGK-5238/)

NGK Spark Plugs 5820 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NGK-5820/)

[steve shadows]

are you sure that's your issue?

And not that you're overly rich?

The feeling in the car feels almost the same as spark being blown out. Most fuel maps are designed on base correction to add additional fuel for additonal levels of heat. Could be just big rich

[jspaeth]

are you sure that's your issue?

And not that you're overly rich?

The feeling in the car feels almost the same as spark being blown out. Most fuel maps are designed on base correction to add additional fuel for additonal levels of heat. Could be just big rich

Steve, I think this is a contributing factor, definitely....

From 5000 RPM--->redline and probably 16 psi and up, that whole section of the map is retardedly rich....I am talking like mid 9's probably.

It's like that bc when my car was tuned, boost started falling off after 5K dramatically (turns out there was a slice in an IC coupler) so he added tons of fuel there in case I overboosted someday in the future.

I am gonna play with my fuel map and pull some fuel in that region to make it more reasonable.

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That being said, something is totally fubarred with my ignition, and I haven't done a thing to touch it or mess it up.

I even put the car on WG boost (like 10 psi) and tried to pull to redline in 3rd gear, and it just stops pulling around 5500 RPM or so.

This is nowhere near enough power to be blowing out spark....I may trying moving my head--->chassis ground to a better location than where it currently is.


This just sucks, bc I have been running the car on 19 psi, tapering down starting at 6000 RPM down to about 16 psi at redline (boost leak, as mentioned), and for 9 months, the car was pulling fine, no hesitation, no problems.

Now, even on 10 psi, it stops pulling at like 5500 RPM.

Gonna do a compression test, even though I am sure it is fine. No coolant missing, no smoke of any kind, oil and coolant were fine last time I checked....haven't touched timing, CAS, or ANYTHING.

[jspaeth]

NGK 8/9/10s

NGK Spark Plugs 4554 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NGK-4554/)

NGK Spark Plugs 5238 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NGK-5238/)

NGK Spark Plugs 5820 - NGK Racing Spark Plugs - Overview - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NGK-5820/)


Steve, maybe you and Ray can discuss this.

These plugs are "racing plugs", i.e. they are NOT resistor-type plugs.


I have read that these can potentially cause interference with the ECU or other electronics (don't care about the radio or whatever):

http://www.hondata.com/techksparkplugs.html


Others say they have had no issues, and some say they cause interference....care to discuss?

[Norty]

Just something to think ab. You might be on to something with the whole rich thing b/c most of the time people experience blow out when the weather starts getting colder not vice versa. You kno cause you get more air/boost when it gets colder. Just something to think ab.

[Technology]

I don't know too much about 240's but I use bpr8es plugs in my conquest gapped to .25. I use e85 fuel, 22psi and about 390whp. My tuner was saying he's tuned some evos with a .09 plug gap, but they are very high boost e85/e98 cars. Also, I was using a stock DSM coil pack and had a very noticable power drop at higher rpm. We switched to another one and the power was back up to where it should have been. With the weaker coilpack, the tuner had increased timing to compensate and after switching, we saw knock and had to pull some timing, but power wasn't affected.

[steve shadows]

Make absolutely sure that your Coil Pack harness is grounded, then grounded and then grounded again. Also make sure your coil packs arent dead.

If your ecu burn out an ignition driver....or one of the pins for one of the Coil Pack signals is messed up this can happen too...

Happened to me in one of the most important races of my S13's life, when I was racing a highly tuned S15 on the FWY, still hung with Paul's car but the ignition kept cutting out hard every 5500=6500 rpms

[rb25_s13*CHUKI]

Make absolutely sure that your Coil Pack harness is grounded, then grounded and then grounded again. Also make sure your coil packs arent dead.

If your ecu burn out an ignition driver....or one of the pins for one of the Coil Pack signals is messed up this can happen too...

Happened to me in one of the most important races of my S13's life, when I was racing a highly tuned S15 on the FWY, still hung with Paul's car but the ignition kept cutting out hard every 5500=6500 rpms

Was It a grey S15? with 17x10 work vsx?

[jspaeth]

Make absolutely sure that your Coil Pack harness is grounded, then grounded and then grounded again. Also make sure your coil packs arent dead.

If your ecu burn out an ignition driver....or one of the pins for one of the Coil Pack signals is messed up this can happen too...

Happened to me in one of the most important races of my S13's life, when I was racing a highly tuned S15 on the FWY, still hung with Paul's car but the ignition kept cutting out hard every 5500=6500 rpms


Yesterday I doubled checked this....coilpack harness is grounded to the back of the head as it should be. Head is grounded to the firewall...I cleaned up the head--->firewall connection by sanding down the firewall to the metal.


Coilpacks have always been okay, spark first blew out a couple weeks ago....I just figured it was hot out and need to gap them down a bit.


However, now I can't even pull to redline at 10 psi even....just not sparking.


Gonna change oil soon and double check coolant, but I am 99% sure headgasket is fine...

Also, the map in the 10 psi region should NOT be so rich as to cause this, as I have previously driven the car under 10 psi with no problems 100s of times.

[jspaeth]

I don't know too much about 240's but I use bpr8es plugs in my conquest gapped to .25. I use e85 fuel, 22psi and about 390whp. My tuner was saying he's tuned some evos with a .09 plug gap, but they are very high boost e85/e98 cars. Also, I was using a stock DSM coil pack and had a very noticable power drop at higher rpm. We switched to another one and the power was back up to where it should have been. With the weaker coilpack, the tuner had increased timing to compensate and after switching, we saw knock and had to pull some timing, but power wasn't affected.

I really want to use BCPR8ES, but they don't make them anymore.

BPR8ES has a 13/16" hex portion, too wide for an SR well I believe.

Plugs show that they are sufficiently cold, so 8s are probably overkill anyway and will foul too much for a lot of the local driving I do

[jamanrr]

I really want to use BCPR8ES, but they don't make them anymore.

BPR8ES has a 13/16" hex portion, too wide for an SR well I believe.

Plugs show that they are sufficiently cold, so 8s are probably overkill anyway and will foul too much for a lot of the local driving I do


one thing that might be simple and you should double check is the fuel cut and rpm it is set at?

[jspaeth]

one thing that might be simple and you should double check is the fuel cut and rpm it is set at?


Thanks for the suggestion...however, I have a standalone, and I know where these are set to (7800 RPM).

I have hit fuel cut many times before and know what that feels like.


This doesn't feel like sputtering like that does.

This feels like the car just stops pulling, but doesn't make any sputtering noises like fuel cut.

[slow92]

I know I already posted this in your other thread but I will do it again. I made 400whp and used bkr7e (I lived in Savannah so it is hot there) gapped to 0.028 and my car started breaking up in the higher rpm range just like yours. So I took it back to my tuner so he could put it on the dyno and try to figure out what was wrong. It felt like fuel cut but then would power through it and pull to redline. After 30 minutes we figured out it was the ignition. We checked each coilpack with a diode tester and they were all firing and at about the same speed. I couldn't borrow someone elses coilpacks to figure out which one it was so I upgraded to ls1 coilpacks. I know you can't do this because you are using a power fc, but once I switched over the car pulled like no other.

[jspaeth]

I know I already posted this in your other thread but I will do it again. I made 400whp and used bkr7e (I lived in Savannah so it is hot there) gapped to 0.028 and my car started breaking up in the higher rpm range just like yours. So I took it back to my tuner so he could put it on the dyno and try to figure out what was wrong. It felt like fuel cut but then would power through it and pull to redline. After 30 minutes we figured out it was the ignition. We checked each coilpack with a diode tester and they were all firing and at about the same speed. I couldn't borrow someone elses coilpacks to figure out which one it was so I upgraded to ls1 coilpacks. I know you can't do this because you are using a power fc, but once I switched over the car pulled like no other.


I am gonna throw in some new plugs soon and see what works.

Grounds are better now than they were before, when it was working. Going to check my igniter chip too.....again I believe it is probably fine because it always worked before and all cylinder fire fine except for under boost.

I think 5000 RPM+ is okay under light load, no misfires....just high load.

This leads me to believe it is weak ignition/blowout/fucked up plugs.

[jamanrr]

I am gonna throw in some new plugs soon and see what works.

Grounds are better now than they were before, when it was working. Going to check my igniter chip too.....again I believe it is probably fine because it always worked before and all cylinder fire fine except for under boost.

I think 5000 RPM+ is okay under light load, no misfires....just high load.

This leads me to believe it is weak ignition/blowout/fucked up plugs.


put some BKR V Powers in there then report back ?

[jspaeth]

put some BKR V Powers in there then report back ?

That's the plan. Like I said, the car was running fine for months and months and months.

Then as soon as it got hot out one day, spark started blowing out.

Then soon after, I found the boost leak and was able to hit even higher boost from 5500+.

Now, it blows out/misfires 5500+ even on 10 psi.....

[slider2828]

Can you give me a picture of how it looks now? Like steve said these coilpacks are 20 years old.... I think the best way to try and diagnose, is get some cheap spark plugs, put them in do like a 15 minute run, just various driving. Pull the plugs and check to see if they foul. If 1 or 2 foul then you might have a coilpack/wiring issue, if all foul then try to switch ignitors. After each test replace with new plugs.....

Its the easiest trial and error way. Also is it an fpr problem as well? What FPR are you running? Try a stock non adjustable fpr....

[jspaeth]

Can you give me a picture of how it looks now? Like steve said these coilpacks are 20 years old.... I think the best way to try and diagnose, is get some cheap spark plugs, put them in do like a 15 minute run, just various driving. Pull the plugs and check to see if they foul. If 1 or 2 foul then you might have a coilpack/wiring issue, if all foul then try to switch ignitors. After each test replace with new plugs.....

Its the easiest trial and error way. Also is it an fpr problem as well? What FPR are you running? Try a stock non adjustable fpr....


Let me clarify....this is NOT a fuel problem. I can watch my fuel pressure gauge and I have a PowerFC so I know how the maps work....nothing is different than before.

Full boost 4000-5000 RPM let's say in 3rd gear and it pulls perfectly....mind you this is near the maximum torque output of the engine so there is a lot of air flowing through there.

I am almost positive the plugs are not fouled. The car drives perfectly unless I am in moderate to high boost above 5500 RPM.

Again, I have an AFR gauge, and my cruising AFRs are tuned to be 15.5 or so under no to light load, tapering up to about 13.7 or so at 0 pressure.

Cruising is 15.2-15.5 or so, and slight tip in causes it to get into the 14s and gradually down to about 13.5-13.7 at zero manifold pressure (from 2000---5000 RPM).

Most of my driving is cruising.

See my first post for pics of the plugs.....they are nowhere near fouled....if anything they look a little lean, since most of my driving is highway/cruising and the car is usually seeing 14.5-16.0 AFRs.

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Separate issue....I KNOW IT SHOULD BE BASIC

Torquing these plugs......


These are gasket-type plugs, so it is supposed to be hand tight then 1/2-2/3 turn with a ratchet or whatever.

Now, I usually stop around 1/3 turn, bc I am afraid of stripping/breaking something.

I notice that I torque them down pretty tight, and then EVERY time that I go to pull the plugs (many 100s or 1000s of miles later), they always require almost NO force to come out.

Am I not tightening them enough? In the past, before I knew a lot about cars, I think I used to be way to hardcore about tightening them down....

[codyace]

These are gasket-type plugs, so it is supposed to be hand tight then 1/2-2/3 turn with a ratchet or whatever.

You should be able to easily crush/seal the gasket one handed, and then give it another 1/3 to 1/2 (like you said) to tighten them. It feel like it's stripping when that seal crushes, but its' normal...just do it one handed till you can't, and then apply final torque.

I'll be very honest, I had a kids sentra one time that we ended needing a 1/2 drive extended handle wratchet on to remvoe...he said 'he wanted to make sure they are tight'...haha. It takes a bit to strip them.



Now here is another thing I was thinking about: Are your valve cover seals leaking? Sometimes that can lead to spark blowout when oil trickles down onto the plug....





I asked hemicharger about this and he said you should try shell v-power gas and its nitrogen enriched formula will clean your valves and reduce blowout, its on the commercial.

(thats an inside joke so no hate)

LOLL!!

[Z U L8R]

you shouldn't blow out .028 gap at 10psi under any circumstances......

add some grounds

Dave

[codyace]

you shouldn't blow out .028 gap at 10psi under any circumstances......

add some grounds

Dave

For sure!

Justin did make note he was going to add more grounds, so lets see if he takes advantage of thsi long weekend...so long as the 'Captain' doesn't get a hold of him hehe.

[jspaeth]

Now here is another thing I was thinking about: Are your valve cover seals leaking? Sometimes that can lead to spark blowout when oil trickles down onto the plug....


Very good point. As a matter of fact, there is a SMALL amount leaking, but not enough that I see any ON the plug....there is a TINY amount on the outside part of the coilpack where it is near the rubber gaskets themselves....

I truly don't believe any significant amount is leaking and actually getting on the plugs.

you shouldn't blow out .028 gap at 10psi under any circumstances......

add some grounds

Dave

Agreed.....

For sure!

Justin did make note he was going to add more grounds, so lets see if he takes advantage of thsi long weekend...so long as the 'Captain' doesn't get a hold of him hehe.


UPDATE.

Repulled the plugs, they look the same.

Recently sanded down firewall down to metal where the head is grounded to to improve that ground (actually did this with other grounds too).

Under full boost, did a 3rd gear pull and it still kind of was misfiring, making it feel like it was pulling, but not smoothly....but not the "flat out dead" feeling that I was getting before.

I really think this is ignition.

I did the same thing, took it out to 6000+ without building much boost (just going slow in 1st gear), and it still seemed to be missing at high RPM.


SO FRUSTRATING!

PLANS:

1) Pull some fuel from the parts of the map that are likely way too rich...(perhaps the map is WAY rich in ALL load cells that are 5500-6000 RPM plus....).

2) New spark plugs (no stores near me have the BKR7E....may need to drive or order online).


See what happens.

I am really getting close to the "fuck this" stage and thinking about the Splitfire setup.

2)

[Z U L8R]

sounds about right.

if you can get her back on the dyno and lean out anything below 11.5 a/f's and it still blowing out spark with close to stock ignition timing on your timing map then there's really nothing else it can be other than a bad ground (which you've fixed), a cracked plug (which you've changed), or a bad coil pack arching out under load.

so between tweaking the tune a tad bit or getting coil packs, sounds like the problem lies therein at this point. you've pretty much done everything else you can do.

if your air/fuels never drop below 11 and pretty much stay in the mid 11's where it's breaking up then i wouldn't mess with the tune till you got some different coil packs since all the basic easy stuff's pretty much been covered.

the only other thing i'd analyze/log before i get all crazy would be your charging system.

basically so you can make sure your fuel pump/ecu/coil's and everything else isn't losing juice at high rpm's causing this issue.....

coil on plug is more desirable but some alternatives could be lsx coils, and/or grand national coils, not the brick of 6 which will work but look tacky, but like the msd ones that electromotive uses, you can get 2 from summit for like 50bucks each, then some 8.5mm msd wires, you'd probably be in it less than $200.......

just throwing some ideas out there, best of luck man

Dave

[jspaeth]

sounds about right.

if you can get her back on the dyno and lean out anything below 11.5 a/f's and it still blowing out spark with close to stock ignition timing on your timing map then there's really nothing else it can be other than a bad ground (which you've fixed), a cracked plug (which you've changed), or a bad coil pack arching out under load.

so between tweaking the tune a tad bit or getting coil packs, sounds like the problem lies therein at this point. you've pretty much done everything else you can do.

if your air/fuels never drop below 11 and pretty much stay in the mid 11's where it's breaking up then i wouldn't mess with the tune till you got some different coil packs since all the basic easy stuff's pretty much been covered.

the only other thing i'd analyze/log before i get all crazy would be your charging system.

basically so you can make sure your fuel pump/ecu/coil's and everything else isn't losing juice at high rpm's causing this issue.....

coil on plug is more desirable but some alternatives could be lsx coils, and/or grand national coils, not the brick of 6 which will work but look tacky, but like the msd ones that electromotive uses, you can get 2 from summit for like 50bucks each, then some 8.5mm msd wires, you'd probably be in it less than $200.......

just throwing some ideas out there, best of luck man

Dave

Thanks!

Like I said, the tune IS overly rich. It is literally low 10s/high 9s at 18-20 psi.

However, previously, I was running on lower boost (mayb 18 psi tapering down to 16 at redline), and that part of the map was maybe like low-mid 10s (still WAY too rich).....and for 9 months, everything was fine like that.

Now, ever since the first time I noticed the missing, even if I go down to really really low boost (like WG 10 psi), it still starts missing in the higher RPMs.

Will check the fuel pressure gauge during a pull to see if I notice anything....

Also need to look at the alternator.

New plugs is next, see if that doesn anything.

Plugs are not cracked, no oil in wells.

Coilpacks have been fine forever....resistance test showed about 0.7 ohms across the board....good.

Mysterious!

[Z U L8R]

the stock ignition's not strong enough to handle a/f in the 10's efficiently, no wonder

that's the problem right thurrrr.

not sure if you're mailing in your ecu or you're just exhanging tune files but you can just turn the fuel pressure down a little. you don't need base fuel pressure @ 50psi, turn it down to 40-42psi

there's NO reason you should/need to be lower than 11.5 air/fuels

i'm with R.S. in that i tune 99% of cars with a flat line of 12.0:1 maaaaaybe 11.7's by redline just for safety's sake

driftcars maybe 11.7 and 11.5 by redline.

cars where i know the customer's gonna drive like an a-hole and is pushing their internals to the limits then i'll do mid 11's with low 11's up top, but there's no reason your a/f's need to ever touch the 10's

you got bigger injectors, your fuel pressure turned up, and your tuner bumpin 15% more fuel across the map.....don't be scurred sir

get that thing 12.0 a/f and 11.7 up top and call it a day. bam! another 10-15hp, another 10 mpg, no detonation, and no more blowing out spark

that's bout it sir, gl

Dave

[jspaeth]

the stock ignition's not strong enough to handle a/f in the 10's efficiently, no wonder

that's the problem right thurrrr.

not sure if you're mailing in your ecu or you're just exhanging tune files but you can just turn the fuel pressure down a little. you don't need base fuel pressure @ 50psi, turn it down to 40-42psi

there's NO reason you should/need to be lower than 11.5 air/fuels

i'm with R.S. in that i tune 99% of cars with a flat line of 12.0:1 maaaaaybe 11.7's by redline just for safety's sake

driftcars maybe 11.7 and 11.5 by redline.

cars where i know the customer's gonna drive like an a-hole and is pushing their internals to the limits then i'll do mid 11's with low 11's up top, but there's no reason your a/f's need to ever touch the 10's

you got bigger injectors, your fuel pressure turned up, and your tuner bumpin 15% more fuel across the map.....don't be scurred sir

get that thing 12.0 a/f and 11.7 up top and call it a day. bam! another 10-15hp, another 10 mpg, no detonation, and no more blowing out spark

that's bout it sir, gl

Dave

Dave, I agree with you.

Some points:

1) Car is on a PFC.

Original tune in the "boost part" (pressure greater than 0) of the map has not been touched.

For 10 months, I have been driving the car with whatever AFR it had but at slightly lower boost with no problems.

A few weeks ago, it got hot, and I thought that caused the blowout (first time I noticed it)....since then, it seems to consistently (sometimes worse than others) misfire in the >6000 RPM even at low to moderate boost.

.................................................. ................................................

Car was tuned on a Dynapack, but NOT steady-state, and I question the accuracy of/how fouled the wideband that was used.

Basically, fuel was tuned on full throttle dynamic pulls.

The result is that when I watch my boost gauge at 18-19 psi from 4000+ RPM, it remains in the low 10's, sometimes even high 9's.

Again, this was okay for 9 months.

Plans are to pull some fuel, new plugs, see what happens. However, without a dyno, it is hard for me to safely do fuel in the high RPM range. 1st and 2nd gear will go by too fast, and i don't want to take the car up above 90 on the highway, which is what I would need to have the revs go up slowly enough to get an idea of AFR vs. RPM under boost (3rd of 4th gear).


It would help if I had some sort of a rough idea of VE vs. RPM.....

Cazn you point me to any place where I can find that?

Dyno charts would lead me to believe that maximum VE with my cams and Intake manifold is around the 4500-6500 RPM range, with it starting to drop off around 7K.


2) My base fuel pressure is exactly 43 psi, so no issues there.

I don't believe in/like the idea of making fuel corrections by fucking with the base FP.

I prefer to leave it where it is and use the ECU to control fuel via the injector on times, provided I have enough injector.

3) Sooooooooooooooo close to getting splitfires, but maybe it is just wayyy too rich now (I do have extra fuel added bc it is warm out, so maybe that is the issue....)


Thanks for your help guys.

.................................................. .............................

Dave,

As I mentioned, I have tuned the vacuum portion of my map (fuel only) by doing tons of datalogging with slow sweeps through the map at semi-constant RPMs.

Result is that my logged AFRs are usually within 3% of my target in nearly every cell!.....KICKASS!

I have done this for the 2000-5000 RPM range, as higher RPMs make it very difficult to slowly transition through the pressure load cells.

For that range however, I am running 15.5-15.7 AFR at very high vacuum, tapering up to around 14.7 at minor throttle (enough to barely accelerate in 5th gear let's say at 75 mph), tapering up to around 13.5 or so at zero manifold pressure.


however, the bottom half (boost) of my map is just straight retardedly rich.


I am really not looking forward to working on that right now, because it is so hot now, and I don't want to have to go back and make drastic changes when it gets cold.

Then again, with a standalone, I can map out a "good hot weather tune" and run an entirely different "cold weather tune" with no problems whatsoever.

:-)

[mattsil80wis]

i can get you on the dyno when you came to the dyno day...lmk if you wanna do this and i can get price/date for you

[codyace]

coil on plug is more desirable but some alternatives could be lsx coils, and/or grand national coils, not the brick of 6 which will work but look tacky, but like the msd ones that electromotive uses, you can get 2 from summit for like 50bucks each, then some 8.5mm msd wires, you'd probably be in it less than $200.......

just throwing some ideas out there, best of luck man

Dave

Can you even fire external coil setups with the stock ECU? I was always under the impression that our setups wouldn't allow this, this side of a standalone.

Also, FWIW, the MSD coilpacks are junk. You're much better off with the stock ones. It is amazing to note how powerful GM coilpack setups are...totally blow ours out of the water.

i can get you on the dyno when you came to the dyno day...lmk if you wanna do this and i can get price/date for you

What are you doing online when your should be fist pumping at the shore ;) We already talked, J wants steady state/load based. We don't have that.

[jspaeth]

Can you even fire external coil setups with the stock ECU? I was always under the impression that our setups wouldn't allow this, this side of a standalone.

Also, FWIW, the MSD coilpacks are junk. You're much better off with the stock ones. It is amazing to note how powerful GM coilpack setups are...totally blow ours out of the water.



What are you doing online when your should be fist pumping at the shore ;) We already talked, J wants steady state/load based. We don't have that.


I did it.

I bought the Splitfires.....I HAD to....FRSport offered them for $15 off and free shipping hahah.


I bet if I put them in, it will fix the issue....but I fully intend to work out the other issues first if possible, bc I don't want to jsut "mask" the underlying problems.


New Issue:

Never had this issue before, but lately, the car has been having trouble turning over sometimes....AFTER it is warmed up....

I am wondering if there is a charging system/battery/alternator issue....?

I am going to get under the car and see how the wiring between the battery/chassis/alternator/starter all looks.

This sucks balls.

However, I am excited about the new coilpacks....I read some reviews and all people noted that the car felt smoother up top.....not necessarily MORE power, just smoother.


Back to what Dave said....now that I am seeing some difficulty starting the car as well, I think more and more that the fuel being really rich is CONTRIBUTING, but is not the cause....I feel like this is ignition/power/alternator related.

[Z U L8R]

aight, there we go. i have the whole picture now.

i thought you had a stock ecu that you were sending out to R.S. for rom tunes so i wasn't sure that you could mess with the tune or not.

i was also under the impression you had your base fuel pressure at 50psi, glad to hear it's at 43, i too dislike tuning a/f with fuel pressure vs injector pulsewidth.

the last thing is i'm happy you have datalogging software instead of you trying to tune this out with the commander cause you would hate life hahah.

do you have teh austrailian knockoff or the real apexi datalogger?

check this out when you get time

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=258454

anyways, long story short, are you tuning this thing?

although it would make your life much easier, you really don't need a steady state dyno to get your a/f's in the 11's.

do some logged pulls being conscious of your throttle position and log what cells you were in. start small so you won't be straining the motor with this "experimental data aquisition time"

1) turn your boost down so if your tune's a little off at first you're not gonna shoot pistons at the cars next to you hahaha.

2) do you even have a VE map passed 0 vacuum? if not you need to build the rest of your map, you should have something pretty close in there from the base map, if you don't, start small and work your way up. you'll start to see a pattern. you can do a mild pull, dial that in, then do a medium pull, dial that in, and everything in between average it out.

you driving your car on the butt dyno trying not to kill soccer moms and innocent bystanders is just your coarse tune, just about anything is better than what you have now. save the anal fine tuning for the steady state dyno :P

3) what's your air fuel's now? are you in between 11 and 12 yet?

4) once you think your VE map is good, tweak your inj map, but don't mistake your drivability problems with problems in your transient settings (ie acceleration/deceleration enrichment).

5) if you have no idea what the hell i'm talking about, pay a tuner to get your car right, it's definitely cheaper than buying parts you don't need and much less of a headache for you. then once your car's sexy, compare how your tune is now to what it was and you'll see what you should have done.

then maybe next time, next mod, or next boost level you can take a more educated/experienced stab at it with better results.

listen to me you stubborn guy you!! ":D

Dave

[GSXRJJordan]

LSx coilpacks. LS1 if you have to, but the best are the Vortec truck coils with the little heat sinks on 'em. They will wire right in, and are about $100 for 4.

So much spark energy that you can gap at .060".

[codyace]

LSx coilpacks. LS1 if you have to, but the best are the Vortec truck coils with the little heat sinks on 'em. They will wire right in, and are about $100 for 4.

So much spark energy that you can gap at .060".

But again, can our ECU's support them without issue?

I have been using an ignition amp for quite some time now, to get past some of my spark issues.

If I woulda known the GM packs worked without issue, I woulda just went with that.

Now for the 2nd (and probably simple question)...how much amperage draw do they have?

-CA

[Z U L8R]

being able to gap the plugs at 4" still doesn't warrant running gasoline at 10:1 air fuel ratio's

this is the problem

:D

Dave

[codyace]

being able to gap the plugs at 4" still doesn't warrant running gasoline at 10:1 air fuel ratio's

this is the problem

:D

Dave

LOOOOOOOL That wa spretty good.

However, lets not dismiss the idea in total - upgrading ignition (at these power levels) isn't a bad idea...these are 15 year old coilpacks after all :D

[GSXRJJordan]

I've got $100 that says I can upgrade any Nissan SR or RB to run LS coils with a stock computer, and I'd also be willing to bet they'd outperform new Nissan coils, Splitfire coils or whatever else the JDM aftermarket has. There are reports on LS1tech of people using stock coils on cars well into the 8's, and everyone faster than that (Pro-stock) uses distributors and huge external coils.

The LQ9 (6.0L Vortec truck motor) coilpacks are seen as the 'best', you'll notice they have a heat sink on the back. Next best are LS2/LS7 "Melco" coilpacks made by Mistubishi Electronics, and lastly the LS1 coils.

But again, can our ECU's support them without issue?

I have been using an ignition amp for quite some time now, to get past some of my spark issues.

If I woulda known the GM packs worked without issue, I woulda just went with that.

Now for the 2nd (and probably simple question)...how much amperage draw do they have?

-CA

Hybrid Z thread testing the LSx coils: LSx Coil Testing - HybridZ - Page 2 (http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?/topic/54641-lsx-coil-testing/page__st__20?)

Sweet thread on KA-T here: www.ka-t.org :: View topic - How to run LS1 Coils (http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26234&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=)

And another for CA18s: GM Ignition Swap – (CA18DET) – NICO Club (http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/gm-ignition-swap-ca18det.html)

I was planning on using them on my RB25 because I was having problems with one of the stock coilpacks, and why the hell would you replace the stock coilpacks with new stock ones when you can get arguably the best OEM coilpacks ever for less money?

I believe with the stock computer (no igniter, coils have them built in) you get a dwell time around 1ms, whereas 3-5ms is 'optimal'... still, 1ms is getting PLENTY of spark energy. I don't have the link that shows the testing video (I think it was on youtube) but I'll keep looking - they tested LS1 vs LQ9 coils at all different dwell times and gaps on a 'scope with excellent results at low dwell and high gaps.

When you're asking about amperage, you mean charge current or how much current they draw during operation?

being able to gap the plugs at 4" still doesn't warrant running gasoline at 10:1 air fuel ratio's

this is the problem

:D

Dave

Haha, sure, but extra spark energy is never a bad thing. Maintaining spark energy at a higher gap always helps for a more 'complete' burn (the first 50% of the mix burns very quickly/easily compared to the last 50%).

On Conrad Grunewald's LSA Camaro (runs new-style GM coilpacks) during testing we were getting detonation at high-RPM when the IAT's came up past 150*F (never got that hot on the dyno) and added a bunch of fuel at first... A/F's dropped into the high 9's and low 10's, and on 14psi (about 700whp) we were not experiencing blowout at .040" gap. Those are some BEAST coilpacks.

LOOOOOOOL That wa spretty good.

However, lets not dismiss the idea in total - upgrading ignition (at these power levels) isn't a bad idea...these are 15 year old coilpacks after all :D

Exactly.

[jspaeth]

do you have teh austrailian knockoff or the real apexi datalogger?

check this out when you get time

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=258454

listen to me you stubborn guy you!! ":D

Dave


1) I have the "knockoff" as you call it....FC Datalogit....I can't think of a single possible function that it CAN'T do, as far as I can tell. Name something for me, I'll tell you if I can't do it....odds are it is so complex, that I am not even worried about it.

2) I have already read that entire thread 2x through....i KNOW how to use this software without issues.

3) I have throttle position enrichment completely turned off....I think this just leads to headaches.

I AM, however, using the Accelerate Injector setting, which adds fuel depending how QUICKLY you depress the gas pedal, but not based upon it's actual position.

I usually turn this off when I am tuning fuel because I want a "true" reading" as I am sweeping through the cells....I try to move slowly, becuase on the street, that is the only way to collect enough reliable data in each cell.

4) I agree, I can do some basic fuel tuning to get it to be better than where it currently is....maybe sometime soon....you call this a "base map", but the car was tuned by Jeff Evans, one of the areas best tuners......

That being said, I did make some corrections to the Air Temp vs. fuel trim table to richen it up just slightly when it is super hot out.

However, even without those, I was still seeing low - mid 10s during the winter even under heavy boost.

5) I STILL think you are mistaking me for someone else.....when was I ever stubborn?

[codyace]

I've got $100 that says I can upgrade any Nissan SR or RB to run LS coils with a stock computer, and I'd also be willing to bet they'd outperform new Nissan coils,

Jordan, I know this. I just want to know how you're hooking them up :D

Listen Sloppy West, don't get short with me ;) hehe. BUt seriously, I was always under a (albiet false now) assumption that the stock ECU wasn't able to trigger them properly.

If you wouldn't mind, PM/Facebook me with more info - 'spoonfeed me baby' :D In the meantime I'll be reading these threads you posted :D



I believe with the stock computer (no igniter, coils have them built in) you get a dwell time around 1ms, whereas 3-5ms is 'optimal'... still, 1ms is getting PLENTY of spark energy. I don't have the link that shows the testing video (I think it was on youtube) but I'll keep looking - they tested LS1 vs LQ9 coils at all different dwell times and gaps on a 'scope with excellent results at low dwell and high gaps.

THis is what I was getting at - I was always under the impression that the spark time would require different 'optimal' timing...thus putting most Stock or Rom based guys out without help. I do understand the 'increased voltage' aspect, but still don't know how well they would work on stockish applications.

Riding of the ignitor though is always a great thing, as so many people have issues with them as it is (i haven't, but a nice thing to not worry about)


When you're asking about amperage, you mean charge current or how much current they draw during operation?

I meant in respect to how much draw on the system, but it really won't be much more than stock as it's a simple 12v (or it ground i forget) signal to fire them as they are. I was a bit 'off' when I wrote that.

[GSXRJJordan]

Jordan, I know this. I just want to know how you're hooking them up :D

Listen Sloppy West, don't get short with me ;) hehe. BUt seriously, I was always under a (albiet false now) assumption that the stock ECU wasn't able to trigger them properly.

If you wouldn't mind, PM/Facebook me with more info - 'spoonfeed me baby' :D In the meantime I'll be reading these threads you posted :D

THis is what I was getting at - I was always under the impression that the spark time would require different 'optimal' timing...thus putting most Stock or Rom based guys out without help. I do understand the 'increased voltage' aspect, but still don't know how well they would work on stockish applications.

Riding of the ignitor though is always a great thing, as so many people have issues with them as it is (i haven't, but a nice thing to not worry about)

I meant in respect to how much draw on the system, but it really won't be much more than stock as it's a simple 12v (or it ground i forget) signal to fire them as they are. I was a bit 'off' when I wrote that.

The new-style truck coils have two 20A fuses (one for each bank), but that feeds the injectors too. I'd guess that for an SR, 4 of these would draw about 15A at full bore.

I'd love to 'scope a stock ECU's ignition trigger, but i'm pretty sure its the same as most... it's going to go high to charge the coil (dwell) then when it goes low the coil discharges. My initial research (as well as reading about a guy running a set of LSx coils on his RB25 using a PowerFC) shows you'll get plenty of spark energy with stock dwell time.

[jspaeth]

Now that you guys are discussing dwell, I am wondering if there is anything I can do (via Power FC, which DOES have control of dwell) to the dwell to create a stronger spark without messing up timing.

I need to read up on this stuff so I understand what you all are talking about....

[Darius]

First, tune the car. There is no excuse for running AFRs in the 9's and 10's at 18 psi. Any ignition system will have trouble firing through that. As for dwell, you can play with the settings a little bit to see if giving the coils a little more time to charge will help. But doing this will only serve as a band-aid at best. Start planning a better ignition system today.

Second, the symptoms scream coil packs. You can replace the stockers with splitfires, but they won't perform like LSx coils. I'm not certain about the SR20 ignition, but if it has an ignition module it can be discarded and the coil signal wires run directly to LS2 coils. To whoever asked about this, yes, the stock ECU and PFC are able to fire the coils. If the stock coils have the ignitors built in, then it should be a simple re-wire job. The tricky part is mounting bracket fabrication and location. Not too tough though.

I run the LS2 coils on my RB25 and they fire like a lightning strike compared to the stock coils and splitfires. My whole system upgrade cost $300 including new plug wires, connectors, etc. With only 4 cylinders, you could split the LS coil costs with a buddy and save more money.

[GSXRJJordan]

Now that you guys are discussing dwell, I am wondering if there is anything I can do (via Power FC, which DOES have control of dwell) to the dwell to create a stronger spark without messing up timing.

I need to read up on this stuff so I understand what you all are talking about....

I think I explained it in the post above, but here's how it works.

You've got a primary coil and a secondary coil, wrapped around each other. When you charge one, it induces a current which charges the second, without them actually being in the same circuit.

Your computer decides when it wants to fire the coil, but since you need to charge the coil first, it gives the 'charge' signal a short time before it wants to fire by going "high" (meaning creating positive voltage in relation to the ground side of the coil), and the current flowing through one coil induces the other (main coil) to charge. This condition persists for a millisecond or so before the ECU 'goes low' (no more voltage on the secondary coil) and the primary coil discharges it's spark. Spark plug fires.

This charging time is the 'dwell', and how long you need to charge depends on the coilpack, not the ECU. Longer dwell means more spark energy (to a point), but at a cost ~ heat is the only thing that kills coilpacks, and longer dwells = more heat. That's why LSx coilpacks are wrapped around a fat metal heat sink.

I would NOT increase dwell on stock coilpacks. They're tiny, probably fried already, and the increase in spark energy is tiny. The ability to increase dwell on LSx coils though means you can go for the gusto and pop up to 3ms or so, with enough spark energy to ignite a mix of dog shit and lemonade with a sexy .060" gap.

First, tune the car. There is no excuse for running AFRs in the 9's and 10's at 18 psi. Any ignition system will have trouble firing through that. As for dwell, you can play with the settings a little bit to see if giving the coils a little more time to charge will help. But doing this will only serve as a band-aid at best. Start planning a better ignition system today.

Second, the symptoms scream coil packs. You can replace the stockers with splitfires, but they won't perform like LSx coils. I'm not certain about the SR20 ignition, but if it has an ignition module it can be discarded and the coil signal wires run directly to LS2 coils. To whoever asked about this, yes, the stock ECU and PFC are able to fire the coils. If the stock coils have the ignitors built in, then it should be a simple re-wire job. The tricky part is mounting bracket fabrication and location. Not too tough though.

I run the LS2 coils on my RB25 and they fire like a lightning strike compared to the stock coils and splitfires. My whole system upgrade cost $300 including new plug wires, connectors, etc. With only 4 cylinders, you could split the LS coil costs with a buddy and save more money.

Yes! 4cyl apps are SO CHEAP, the plug wires are going to cost almost as much as the coils themselves lol. The wiring is actually really simple - I will share it with anyone. But first I want someone to take me up on my bet lol.

[DALAZ_68]

I've got $100 that says I can upgrade any Nissan SR or RB to run LS coils with a stock computer, and I'd also be willing to bet they'd outperform new Nissan coils, Splitfire coils or whatever else the JDM aftermarket has. There are reports on LS1tech of people using stock coils on cars well into the 8's, and everyone faster than that (Pro-stock) uses distributors and huge external coils.




i can ALREADY say its do-able...pretty much are your doing is bypassing the stock igniter, since each LS igniter has its own to work with...obviously splitting the load of the work and making it more balanced and efficient...

im just saying shit in simple terms...im pretty sure it might be more techy than this...but w/e :rolleyes:

[spools420a]

So on a stock sr running 10 psi whats a good plug and gap?Thx.

[GSXRJJordan]

i can ALREADY say its do-able...pretty much are your doing is bypassing the stock igniter, since each LS igniter has its own to work with...obviously splitting the load of the work and making it more balanced and efficient...

im just saying shit in simple terms...im pretty sure it might be more techy than this...but w/e :rolleyes:

Haha, Steve puts down his authoritative stamp of approval that what I've said makes sense.

So on a stock sr running 10 psi whats a good plug and gap?Thx.

Plenty of info around on a common setup like yours, but 10psi on a T25 or T28 should be heat range 6 or 7 plugs, gapped .030" +- .002".

[DALAZ_68]

Haha, Steve puts down his authoritative stamp of approval that what I've said makes sense.






i sometimes understand, can i do it? no...understand it...maybe? :tardrim:

[jspaeth]

First, tune the car. There is no excuse for running AFRs in the 9's and 10's at 18 psi. Any ignition system will have trouble firing through that. As for dwell, you can play with the settings a little bit to see if giving the coils a little more time to charge will help. But doing this will only serve as a band-aid at best. Start planning a better ignition system today.

Second, the symptoms scream coil packs.

I agree with you that those AFR's are WAY to rich.

It does NOT explain why with the same AFRs, everything was fine for 9 MONTHS.


Anyway, this weekend I am going under the car and taking a once over on my alternator/battery/starter wiring and grounds.

I think alternator is okay, as I see around 13.8 V output at all RPMS and loads.


New plugs came in.....


Plans are:

1) Replace spark plug well gaskets and valve cover gasket to eliminate minor leaking of oil (very minor amount).

2) New spark plugs go in (v-power now rather than regular tip)

3) Pull some fuel across the board in the boost portion of the map, to get rid of silly 9.8-10.4 AFR's under boost and try to get it at least into the high 10/low 11 range which is still rich, but should at least be ignitable.

4) THEN, after doing all that, install my new Spliftires, which comes with ignition amplification unit to increase the voltage by about 50%.



I am hoping that doing the first 3 steps fixes the problem!




The other thing I was thinking.....when the car does this, it literally barely wants to keep pulling at all....is it possible that it could feel THAT crappy even with only 1 coilpack not doing it's job?

[GSXRJJordan]

4) THEN, after doing all that, install my new Spliftires, which comes with ignition amplification unit to increase the voltage by about 50%.
...
The other thing I was thinking.....when the car does this, it literally barely wants to keep pulling at all....is it possible that it could feel THAT crappy even with only 1 coilpack not doing it's job?

Sell the Splitfires. Increasing voltage by 50% does not increase charge current 50%. Go LSx coils and save a bunch of money.

1 coilpack going out will be noticeable because that plug will be rich as balls while the others are better.

[Z U L8R]

man this week was crazy, had to make up for taking memorial day off, mama needed a new pair of shoes!

aiight. where were we :D

Jordan: i knew you had the elaboration of the lsx coil pack under control, great job, great research, and great posts + reps sir, i agree with everything you said.

Jspaeth: Justin

fwiw, i used fc edit on my rb25 in my sig and it worked great! i loved it! i wasn't insinuating anything negative when i said "australian knockoff"

great job on testing your charging system, that eliminates that. ahh the power of deduction, so good when you're only wasting time instead of wasting money.

always test never guess (if at all possible)

v-power rox teh casba bkr7e @ .028 shouldn't blow spark on stock ignition up to 20-22psi if the tune's straight, good choice.

i'm struggling not to go
1.
2.
3.
with my points/suggestions because i don't want you to think i'm being condescending or a jerk, honestly i do that for my own benefit so i can keep my thoughts in order so don't take that personal please.

you should have no problem running a flat 12.0 a/f ratio across the board which is still considered too rich by some well known tuners here in GA...

me personally, i feel 12.5 is the limits, therefore going to 12.0 and 11.7 up top gets the most power and is still PLENTY rich for those cold days and bad tanks of gas here and there....

with that said, there's no reason to be afraid to get your a/f in the 11.5's , i charge thee to not stop tweaking until every cell you get into whilst driving in boost is above 11.0

10's are not acceptable. if i see 10's i see a problem, and blowing out spark is definitely gonna and should happen.

that point is a dead horse and i'm done beating it, you get the idea.

i have a problem though. i know i don't know you that well, but from what i can tell (and i feel i'm a pretty good judge of character)

there is absolutely no way on God's green earth that someone like you OR ME would be able to drive a car that gets into the 9 and 10 air fuels for 9 months and not have/or know that there's a problem...

the car would buck, sputter, and foul the spark plugs every week if not after a couple times of just boosting.

it's like putting 550's in your stock sr or rb then starting the car. it idles fine and drives fine but if you try to boost, you're gonna be in the 9-10 afr's and it's gonna break up/foul plugs

i will bet you money that your car was not in the 9 to 10 air fuel ratio's for 9 months giving you no problems.....now hold up a second

i'm not calling you a liar at all whatsoever, and i don't care about that, that has nothing to do with my point or my suggestions to try to help you so don't get stuck on trying to defend yourself because i don't care what you say, there's no way the car could have been running that rich and been "driveable" by OUR standards...

therefore, i must ask you, have you monitored your real time coolant temperature that the ecu sees and is it normal?

i can't see jeff evans tuner or whatever his name is guy that's in your area have a good reputation as a tuner and let people leave his dyno with air fuels like that.......nor if i just paid some guy to tune my car and my air fuel ratios were in the 9-10's i would either ask for a refund or tell the man that my car's not done yet.....why??

because a boosted car whether it be any nissan or a built stroked magical 2j would be sputtering like crazy and blowing spark out that rich, ESPECIALLY with the stock ignition.... so there's just no way

so my theory is that, your tuner gave you a safe tune in the 11's, nice, safe, semi-rich for safety, and you've been driving the car for the last 9 months with no problems so you haven't really payed attention to much cause there's been no need, everything's been working correctly...

however, your coolant temperature sensor for the ecu recently has been taking a dump and is sending your ecu bad information which is causing your ecu to fatten up your whole map....now how you didn't notice this makes me doubt this theory because i'd assume you would have noticed that by now....

however if i don't assume and i simply ask you to check what your ecu is seeing as coolant temps from the sensor, then i get my question answered, and we deduce one more possibility.

don't ever think i'm trying to insult your intelligence or chastise you. i sincerely want you to remedy these issues you're having and maybe learn a little in the process.

i'm in your thread to help you,

Dave

[jspaeth]

Dave,

I fully appreciate your help.


My wideband has been calibrated from day 1, so I know it is accurate. I have always had a fuel pressure gauge, so I always know that the fuel pressure hasn't changed since day 1 when he first tuned my car.


That being said, i HAVE NOT TOUCHED any of the fuel map relating to the boost portion of the map EVER.

For the past 4-5 months that I have had the wideband, I have been monitoring the AFRs...

Under boost greater than abut 7 or 8 psi, the AFRs across the board have ALWAYS been at least as rich as 10.5, usually in the LOW 10s.

I agree with you that this retardedly rich.


However, the car HAS pulled fine, never misfiring....clearly I am losing torque, but never was misfiring EVER.

I had a correction in there to richen things up a bit for the warm weather, and in some spots it made the AFRs drop into the high 9's even...


That being said, even in the cooler weather, where i left the air temperature correction UNTOUCHED, the AFRs have always been in the low 10s.


Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to "call anyone out".....but I have been to Jeff's shop quite a few times, and have never witnessed him calibrate an O2 sensor.

If you are doing 100s and 100s of pulls at WOT under AFR < 12 conditions, the O2 sensor is gonna foul and not read accurately.


Makes me wonder how accurate the wideband sensor that was used to tune my car is.....




As far as coolant goes, I monitor this constantly, and it never deviates from 81-84 C.

In my water temperature correction, the correction from being 78 vs 85 C is at MOST only 1%....nowhere near enough to make it overly rich like this.


One last thing........


I agree with you that it should be 11.5-12.0............however, the reason I say high 10s/low 11s is because of timing.

Although I look at the timing map and it "looks" okay to me based upon the timing I have seen coming off of Enthalpy/JWT maps and word of mouth, I refuse to just "trust it" without having it on a dyno to measure the torque and listen for knock and what not.

That being said, I feel that in the short term, moving the AFRs into the hi 10/low 11 range is a HUGE improvement over what is currently going on, and will still be rich enough to assure that it's not getting too hot in there or pre-detonating.

Like I said, my timing map LOOKS okay and pretty conservative, but I wouldn't feel comfortable running the "optimal" 11.7-12.0 until I am SURE the timing is safe enough by directly testing that.


Thanks for your help.

Justin

[Z U L8R]

Werd.

Can you compare your current tune to the default tune apexi puts in your power fc? i'd compare everything but mainly emphasis on the transient settings and timing map.

also...just worth mentioning...what's your injector % set at and injector lag "latency"

Jordan: lol now you got me thinking of doing LSx coils on my 2j ^_^...lol i was even thinking about a way to set it up on my stock ka :D funny

Dave :)

[jspaeth]

Werd.

Can you compare your current tune to the default tune apexi puts in your power fc? i'd compare everything but mainly emphasis on the transient settings and timing map.

also...just worth mentioning...what's your injector % set at and injector lag "latency"

Jordan: lol now you got me thinking of doing LSx coils on my 2j ^_^...lol i was even thinking about a way to set it up on my stock ka :D funny

Dave :)

Dave, all of the corrections are essentially default.

I made some minor changes to AirTemp and WaterTemp effects on fuel and timing, but very minor changes.


Injector % is set at 55%.....running 740cc injectors....technically, it should be 50%, but it doesn't really matter.

For building my initial map, Jeff started with 55% to have some global inrichment and just went from there.

As you know, it really is just a correction, and doesn't matter....as what matters is that % times the base map value.


My injector lag correction is +0.06.

This is correct, as the Tomei 740cc injectors are a bit slower than the OEM 370cc's. ( i forget the exact lag times, but I looked it up a while ago and they differ by 0.06 ms).

[jspaeth]

Okay I am ready for the flaming....

I just pulled my plugs, checked compression....145 145 145 142....very happy with that.


Then I checked my plug gap for the THIRD time.....previously I had been using a set of OLD flat feeler gauges.


Well I checked them this time with one of the "disks" that has the readings going around the outside....

Gaps were 0.035 0.027 0.027 0.030.


I am wondering if the first cylinder has been blowing out or not sparking, bc that is huge gap for 9/10 AFR with stock ignition.


I swear on my life when I checked it with the feeler gauges, they were all below 0.025.

Fuck feeler gauges.

[GSXRJJordan]

Jordan: lol now you got me thinking of doing LSx coils on my 2j ^_^...lol i was even thinking about a way to set it up on my stock ka :D funny

Dave :)

You should, it's not as much of an upgrade as old SR coils->LSx coils, but it should still be good for ya. Extra spark energy with a huge gap is good for fuel economy too, so Obama likes using LSx coils.

Okay I am ready for the flaming....

I just pulled my plugs, checked compression....145 145 145 142....very happy with that.


Then I checked my plug gap for the THIRD time.....previously I had been using a set of OLD flat feeler gauges.


Well I checked them this time with one of the "disks" that has the readings going around the outside....

Gaps were 0.035 0.027 0.027 0.030.


I am wondering if the first cylinder has been blowing out or not sparking, bc that is huge gap for 9/10 AFR with stock ignition.


I swear on my life when I checked it with the feeler gauges, they were all below 0.025.

Fuck feeler gauges.

So did it fix the problem, or was that just a side issue? How are the A/F's now?

[jspaeth]

You should, it's not as much of an upgrade as old SR coils->LSx coils, but it should still be good for ya. Extra spark energy with a huge gap is good for fuel economy too, so Obama likes using LSx coils.



So did it fix the problem, or was that just a side issue? How are the A/F's now?

Didn't take it out yet. THe AFRs will certainyl be the same, I need to datalog and make changes to the fuel map to clean them up, which I won't ahve time for until next weekend.

Just changed oil, regapped plugs.


bleeding brakes now....

Also, pulled the ignitor chip and tested it per the FSM and it checks out beautifully.

I promise to follow up on this. I hope that the tigther (correct) gap PLUS better AFRs cures the issue.

Again, I emphasize that the spark is blowing out also at 6000+ RPM under heavy vacuum, where the AFR is in the high 14s/low 15s.......


This proves that it is not simply a super-rich AFR caused problem...

Thanks for your help.

[jspaeth]

Tighter gap helped a BIT (idle and driving and response seem a little better/smoother) but the car is still missing really really really badly above 5800-6000 RPM.


I am not sure if this sheds any light.....but, after I let the car warm up to temp 80C or so, which took about 5 minutes, I slowly took it out to 6500 once, and it was okay....I remember this happening the other day too.

However, once the car is being driven for a while, it just nevers DOESNT miss above 6K or so.


Could this be a heat issue? Something maybe getting physically too hot?

[GSXRJJordan]

Didn't take it out yet. THe AFRs will certainyl be the same, I need to datalog and make changes to the fuel map to clean them up, which I won't ahve time for until next weekend.

Just changed oil, regapped plugs.


bleeding brakes now....

Also, pulled the ignitor chip and tested it per the FSM and it checks out beautifully.

I promise to follow up on this. I hope that the tigther (correct) gap PLUS better AFRs cures the issue.

Again, I emphasize that the spark is blowing out also at 6000+ RPM under heavy vacuum, where the AFR is in the high 14s/low 15s.......


This proves that it is not simply a super-rich AFR caused problem...

Thanks for your help.

They will not certainly be the same if there was a gap problem... that's the whole reasoning behind the coilpack/gap questioning, because the rich AFR's suggest that you're not igniting the mix. If you are now correctly igniting the mix, you'll see AFR's more on target.

That being said, the fact that you're getting breakup at 6k rpm under vacuum leads me to believe the problem could be CAS or coilpacks.

[jspaeth]

They will not certainly be the same if there was a gap problem... that's the whole reasoning behind the coilpack/gap questioning, because the rich AFR's suggest that you're not igniting the mix. If you are now correctly igniting the mix, you'll see AFR's more on target.

That being said, the fact that you're getting breakup at 6k rpm under vacuum leads me to believe the problem could be CAS or coilpacks.

I agree with you, but the AFRs I mentioned were observed while in boost, but prior to break up/misfire.....

I KNOW they are the way they are simply bc the map is too rich, not because of failure to ignite.


In bold....THIS is what I think.....I really do think it's the coilpacks.

I don't think it's CAS.....I mean it COULD be, but the car ran perfectly fine for 9-10 months without me touching it....as far as I know, they don't usually just "go".....but coilpacks....that is another story.


Voltage at battery or alternator at high RPMs.........okay, check
Tested ignitor chip.............................................o kay, check
Resistance tested all 4 coilpacks....about 1 ohm......okay, check
Good ground to head from chassis..........................check
Good coilpack harness ground to head.....................check
Spark plugs (now) gapped okay..............................check



It doesn't leave much else, to be honest, other than a coilpack or 2 or 3 that are not firing at high RPM for some reason.

[Def]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I'll save you an assload of trouble.

Ditch the copper plugs and get some 7 heat range NGK iridiums, or Densos(IK22 I think?). NGK p/n is BKR7EIX (2667).

Coppers work fine at higher pressures when they're brand new, but they require a huge amount of voltage to jump the gap and current to make a strong enough spark. Get a little carbon after about 500-1000 miles and they require an even larger amount of voltage/current to ignite stuff over 16-17 psi on our engines.

The iridiums build up the potential much easier since it's in a much smaller cylindrical zone, and they will absolutely work for the life of the plug at whatever boost you want to run.

I went through 20 BKR7E's many years ago(stock S13 SR, problems at 16-17 psi of boost, fine below that, stock coils, stock igniter). Swapped to BKR7EIX and put about 7k miles on them with zero problems. Swapped to some Denso IK22(I think, the equivalent to the NGKs), just for preventive maintenance, but the NGKs were 100% fine when I pulled them out.

Trust me, the $4-5/plug extra you spend is well worth having a plug that doesn't suck after 500 miles. Don't buy into the copper hype. It's a bunch of people just repeating "forum group think" from the 90's.

Also, don't go to an 8 heat range. That is too cold for these motors and that power level, even for track usage. I wouldn't go to an 8 until I was making about 450+ rwhp and using the motor almost exclusively on the track.

[Def]

BTW - Rockauto.com has the best price on spark plugs in my experience.

[jspaeth]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I'll save you an assload of trouble.

Ditch the copper plugs and get some 7 heat range NGK iridiums, or Densos(IK22 I think?). NGK p/n is BKR7EIX (2667).

Coppers work fine at higher pressures when they're brand new, but they require a huge amount of voltage to jump the gap and current to make a strong enough spark. Get a little carbon after about 500-1000 miles and they require an even larger amount of voltage/current to ignite stuff over 16-17 psi on our engines.

The iridiums build up the potential much easier since it's in a much smaller cylindrical zone, and they will absolutely work for the life of the plug at whatever boost you want to run.

I went through 20 BKR7E's many years ago(stock S13 SR, problems at 16-17 psi of boost, fine below that, stock coils, stock igniter). Swapped to BKR7EIX and put about 7k miles on them with zero problems. Swapped to some Denso IK22(I think, the equivalent to the NGKs), just for preventive maintenance, but the NGKs were 100% fine when I pulled them out.

Trust me, the $4-5/plug extra you spend is well worth having a plug that doesn't suck after 500 miles. Don't buy into the copper hype. It's a bunch of people just repeating "forum group think" from the 90's.

Also, don't go to an 8 heat range. That is too cold for these motors and that power level, even for track usage. I wouldn't go to an 8 until I was making about 450+ rwhp and using the motor almost exclusively on the track.

Thanks for the advice.

BTW - Rockauto.com has the best price on spark plugs in my experience.

Just ordered 2 sets of BKR7E from there....I REALLY don't think it's the plugs....they look perfectly clean and unfouled.


Update/ New Question

Also....Def...pay attention to this statement!

AGAIN, I emphasize that the misfires are at 6000 RPM plus INDEPENDENT of load....even at very LOW loads (foot BARELY on the gas) at 6000 RPM, it is missing.

I am worried that tis may be CAS related now....it is eerie that the problem is RPM dependent but NOT load dependent.

You can't "blow out" spark at 6000 RPM with like 25 inches of vacuum in the manifold.....that is so little airflow.....


I am going to check my ECU to make sure that one of the CAS-related wires isn't messed up or loose or something.


I don't know much about how the CAS works (I know it uses 2 different signals 1* and 180*).....I am wondering if one of them being okay but the other being messed up could cause this "high RPM load independent" misfiring issue....like maybe the 1* signal is messed up?


Justin

[Def]

Oh, yea, that isn't a plug problem. I thought the "blowing out spark" was leading towards a high boost spark problem.

It could be anything from an igniter/coilpack or the CAS. I'd think the CAS would make it not really run if something was wrong with it.

[jspaeth]

Oh, yea, that isn't a plug problem. I thought the "blowing out spark" was leading towards a high boost spark problem.

It could be anything from an igniter/coilpack or the CAS. I'd think the CAS would make it not really run if something was wrong with it.


I was thinking the same thing, but I was wondering if a good 180* signal may be good enough for it to get timing right at lower RPMS, but perhaps it is absolutely dependent on the 1* signal at higher RPMs.


About to do some reading.


If someone could shed some light or hypothesize why a coilpack would fail in an RPM dependent (not load dependant) way, I would feel at ease, with the new Splitfires being on the way and all haha

[GSXRJJordan]

Thanks for the advice.



Just ordered 2 sets of BKR7E from there....I REALLY don't think it's the plugs....they look perfectly clean and unfouled.


Update/ New Question

Also....Def...pay attention to this statement!

AGAIN, I emphasize that the misfires are at 6000 RPM plus INDEPENDENT of load....even at very LOW loads (foot BARELY on the gas) at 6000 RPM, it is missing.

I am worried that tis may be CAS related now....it is eerie that the problem is RPM dependent but NOT load dependent.

You can't "blow out" spark at 6000 RPM with like 25 inches of vacuum in the manifold.....that is so little airflow.....


I am going to check my ECU to make sure that one of the CAS-related wires isn't messed up or loose or something.


I don't know much about how the CAS works (I know it uses 2 different signals 1* and 180*).....I am wondering if one of them being okay but the other being messed up could cause this "high RPM load independent" misfiring issue....like maybe the 1* signal is messed up?


Justin

The coil needs to effectively discharge (quickly) in order to be able to be charged again, to discharge. Old coils take longer to charge and discharge so it can still be a coilpack problem. See below for CAS info...

Oh, yea, that isn't a plug problem. I thought the "blowing out spark" was leading towards a high boost spark problem.

It could be anything from an igniter/coilpack or the CAS. I'd think the CAS would make it not really run if something was wrong with it.

In general, it's true that "bad CASs" won't work at all, and the SR won't start.

The CAS (any optical pickup) depends on it's ability to accurately pick up that notch and the ECU needs a clean square wave to effectively control ignition. The SR20 is especially dependent on the CAS (as opposed to many other motors which use cam and crank position together). The CAS is not hermetically sealed, and the electronics do go bad. It's worth re-stabbing/retiming with a friend's "good" CAS to eliminate the possibility.

[jspaeth]

The coil needs to effectively discharge (quickly) in order to be able to be charged again, to discharge. Old coils take longer to charge and discharge so it can still be a coilpack problem. See below for CAS info...



In general, it's true that "bad CASs" won't work at all, and the SR won't start.

The CAS (any optical pickup) depends on it's ability to accurately pick up that notch and the ECU needs a clean square wave to effectively control ignition. The SR20 is especially dependent on the CAS (as opposed to many other motors which use cam and crank position together). The CAS is not hermetically sealed, and the electronics do go bad. It's worth re-stabbing/retiming with a friend's "good" CAS to eliminate the possibility.


Okay, well I am waiting for the splitfires to get here on Monday....next step is to try those....if it goes away, I know it's the coilpacks.


I AM still going to fix the richness under boost, but it is clear that that is not the cause of the problem, due to the misfiring under heavy vacuum at high RPM, where the AFRs are in the 14.7 range or leaner.


I dread it being the CAS.....when it comes to "sensitive" electronic parts like that, I HATE buying used ones, so I would probably wind up wasting lots of money buying a new one

[jspaeth]

VERY interesting and enlightening thread on NASIOC....this guy was having high RPM "misfires"

It turned out to be an issue related to the crank angle sensor not being close enough or something like that....worth the read:

High RPM misfire/stutter - Page 3 - NASIOC (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1521496&page=3)

[GSXRJJordan]

VERY interesting and enlightening thread on NASIOC....this guy was having high RPM "misfires"

It turned out to be an issue related to the crank angle sensor not being close enough or something like that....worth the read:

High RPM misfire/stutter - Page 3 - NASIOC (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1521496&page=3)

We don't use magnetic pickups, doesn't apply.

[jspaeth]

We don't use magnetic pickups, doesn't apply.


Ok thanks.

Tomorrow I am gonna check continuity from ECU to the CAS...I assume it is good bc the car runs fine usually....worth a check tho.

Sidenote: Can anyone explain why the J4 ECU (what I have...a 97-98 blacktop out of Type-X 180sx manual) only has a single wire for the 1 degree CAS signal, whereas it seems like all the other SRs have 2 wires each for the 180 and 1 degree signals?


I should also add that my CAS is NOT in perfect condition.

When I took it off , I trying opening the lid (don't know why) and there is a small "bend" in the disc.

I will post up a pic.

Again, I don't think this is the issue, as the car has run fine for about a year like this.

[GSXRJJordan]

Ok thanks.

Tomorrow I am gonna check continuity from ECU to the CAS...I assume it is good bc the car runs fine usually....worth a check tho.

Sidenote: Can anyone explain why the J4 ECU (what I have...a 97-98 blacktop out of Type-X 180sx manual) only has a single wire for the 1 degree CAS signal, whereas it seems like all the other SRs have 2 wires each for the 180 and 1 degree signals?


I should also add that my CAS is NOT in perfect condition.

When I took it off , I trying opening the lid (don't know why) and there is a small "bend" in the disc.

I will post up a pic.

Again, I don't think this is the issue, as the car has run fine for about a year like this.

Normal SR harness has two inputs to the ECU for 1* and 180*, but they come from the same wire. If yours only has one each, that's fine, that's all it needs.

Bent CAS disc. You're kidding, right. Lol. Wow. Lets take the most sensitive sensor in the whole car, which uses a small metal disc spinning at thousands of revolutions per minute, and bend it. Then lets spin it for a hundred hours. Do you think the disc and it's moving assembly are going to stay perfectly normal? ANY misalignment between the disc and the sensor is going to cause problems with an optical pickup.

My money's on the CAS, they're fairly cheap, just replace it.

[jspaeth]

Normal SR harness has two inputs to the ECU for 1* and 180*, but they come from the same wire. If yours only has one each, that's fine, that's all it needs.

Bent CAS disc. You're kidding, right. Lol. Wow. Lets take the most sensitive sensor in the whole car, which uses a small metal disc spinning at thousands of revolutions per minute, and bend it. Then lets spin it for a hundred hours. Do you think the disc and it's moving assembly are going to stay perfectly normal? ANY misalignment between the disc and the sensor is going to cause problems with an optical pickup.

My money's on the CAS, they're fairly cheap, just replace it.


Jeff, it isn't anywhere near as bad as you make it sound.

Why is it that when I say "the car has been running perfectly for 10 months" that people just kind of overlook that or don't trust me?

Anyway, I will take pictures tomorrow.

There is a small kink near the edge of the disk basically.....

[2fast4y0u]

subscribed.

very interesting issue. i like it when you guys get all techy about the sr...just doesnt happen enough on here

[jspaeth]

subscribed.

very interesting issue. i like it when you guys get all techy about the sr...just doesnt happen enough on here

I also enjoy that. I am so sick of people talking about stretched tires and how slammed their car is or what body kit or paint they have.

Stuuuupid.

[jspaeth]

Checked continuity between ECU and CAS per the FSM and it checked out perfectly.

Took the cover off the CAS.....there was a SLIGHT brownish filmy look to the disk, so I sprayed some carb cleaner on a paper towel and wiped the surface of the disk.


I do NOT think that this is gonna fix the issue tho.

Also, the small "bend" or "wavyness" in the one spot on the CAS disk is far less than I remember it being.

Basically, along one portion of the disk, if you view it along the edge, it is very SLIGHTLY wavy rather than a perfectly straight edge, and as I have said 100 times, the car ran fine for 10 months.

Coilpacks come in tomorrow!

UPDATE:

Just took the car out again. As soon as it hit operating temp (after like 4-5 minutes of warmup...) I floored it 1st and 2nd gear and it pulled strong all the way to redline in both gears, no sputtering.

Did it again 2 minutes later, slight sputtering

Did it again 5 minutes later, awful sputtering from 6K and up.



This seems heat related, like the heat is getting to the coilpacks....


Does this make sense at all? Can the heating up of the coilpacks as the engine and engine bay heat up cause them to stop working at high RPM?


I want to make sure there is not some "bigger problem" that is causing this.

I don't want to put in my new coilpacks, only for them to get ruined because there is another underlying problem (heat?).

[steve shadows]

What is your leakdown like?

What's your compression numbers like?

How are your grounds on your coil pack harness?

Not a fan of the split fires honestly man, if I were you I would just buy some new OEM ones, the OEM ones are solid up to 600+ whp all day long. And 30 PSI of boost.

Also def also makes a good point about the heat ranges, there is such thing as too cold, I guess you could say. Heat range 7 is plenty on the SR.

How is your fuel pressure under load? (sorry I havent read the whole thread either). Have you been able to watch it under heavy load by running a fuel presure gauge into the cabin to check?

What type of injectors do you have again? If they are D-werks then that's possibly an issue as well.

Don't just focus on Ignition, cut out issues could be related to a lot of different things

[jspaeth]

What is your leakdown like?

What's your compression numbers like?

How are your grounds on your coil pack harness?

Not a fan of the split fires honestly man, if I were you I would just buy some new OEM ones, the OEM ones are solid up to 600+ whp all day long. And 30 PSI of boost.

Also def also makes a good point about the heat ranges, there is such thing as too cold, I guess you could say. Heat range 7 is plenty on the SR.

How is your fuel pressure under load? (sorry I havent read the whole thread either). Have you been able to watch it under heavy load by running a fuel presure gauge into the cabin to check?

What type of injectors do you have again? If they are D-werks then that's possibly an issue as well.

Don't just focus on Ignition, cut out issues could be related to a lot of different things

Leakdown.....no idea

Compression....145 across the board

Grounds are excellent from coil pack harness to head and head to chassis.

Fuel pressure is good......increases 1:1 but for some reason, it stops increasing past 58 psi (it increases 1:1 up to 15 psi of boost, but then stops going up past that.....doesn't DROP, just holds 58 psi constant past 15 psi of boost.....I am going to directly wire it to the battery soon....)....have an electronic FP gauge in cabin.

The FP is NOT the issue....the car was like this when it was tuned, so a little more injector probably needed to be used.....nonetheless, it is NOT lean....AFRs are VERY rich under boost....in the low 10s.


Btw the injectors are Nismo/Tomei 740s.


However, the richness is not what is causing the misfires....it misfires at 6K RPM even under massive vacuum (where the AFRs are in the 14.7 or slightly leaner range).

It is RPM dependent, not AFR or load-dependent....I have tested it under many conditions to draw this conclusion.


I will know as of tomorrow if it's the coils, which I think it is....

[Darius]

Coil pack problems increase with temperature. What is happening is the insulation in the tired, old coilpacks is deteriorating and cracking. These cracks widen as the coilpacks heat up making it easier for spark to arc across to the head than to be forced through the rich fuel and dense air mixture in your cylinder. This is when you feel the engine missing.

I 100% guarantee that the problem will go away with new OEM packs, Splitfires, or LSx packs.

And please stop messing with spark plugs. I know it is the cheapest route to try, but they have little to no influence on this problem unless they are in terrible condition, which most car guys' are not. Plus it clutters up a perfectly good coil pack thread haha :)

[jspaeth]

Ok, so maybe this seems like an obvious thing to check, I dunno....

Now that I have the Splitfires (going in tomorrow), I decided to try pulling the rubber off of the bottom of the OEM coilpacks....I wasn't sure if you could do this, so I just pulled hard and it popped off:

This is what I found:

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad316/golfertilltheend/Car%20Stuff/DSCN1872.jpg

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad316/golfertilltheend/Car%20Stuff/DSCN1880.jpg





Notice the color of the metal ring around where the sprig/coiled wire comes out....

On 3/4 coilpacks, it is a copperish color.


On the top left one, the metal looks like tarnished copper....kind of bluish/greenish in color.



Does anyone know if this is a sign of anything?


Furthermore, I showed my dad, and we were discussing how far in the spark plug tip goes....

Does the end of the spark plug just touch the coiled wire and compress it a bit, or should the spark plug end push all the way in to the point where it is touching that ring of metal around teh coiled wire?



If the spark plug end relies on making contact with the metal "ring" around the coiled wire, then it seems obvious that there is some heavy corrosion or deposit or oxidation on the one coilpack and that this may be the issue.



If someone with knowledge of this could chime in, I would very much appreciate it.

thanks alot.

[jamanrr]

Ok, so maybe this seems like an obvious thing to check, I dunno....

Now that I have the Splitfires (going in tomorrow), I decided to try pulling the rubber off of the bottom of the OEM coilpacks....I wasn't sure if you could do this, so I just pulled hard and it popped off:

This is what I found:

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad316/golfertilltheend/Car%20Stuff/DSCN1872.jpg

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad316/golfertilltheend/Car%20Stuff/DSCN1880.jpg





Notice the color of the metal ring around where the sprig/coiled wire comes out....

On 3/4 coilpacks, it is a copperish color.


On the top left one, the metal looks like tarnished copper....kind of bluish/greenish in color.



Does anyone know if this is a sign of anything?


Furthermore, I showed my dad, and we were discussing how far in the spark plug tip goes....

Does the end of the spark plug just touch the coiled wire and compress it a bit, or should the spark plug end push all the way in to the point where it is touching that ring of metal around teh coiled wire?



If the spark plug end relies on making contact with the metal "ring" around the coiled wire, then it seems obvious that there is some heavy corrosion or deposit or oxidation on the one coilpack and that this may be the issue.



If someone with knowledge of this could chime in, I would very much appreciate it.

thanks alot.

A coil pack is a coil pack whether it is on an F150 or a sr20det. That oxidation is usually caused from mis-contact or the coil not being seated properly on the spark plug. Did you see the same oxidation or discoloring on the top of the plug where it made contact? If you did then it was probably arcing. This arcing can cause plugs to misfire and file out. You could use some OS cleaner or the like and a small file and clean it or replace it like you are doing. Put the splitfires on and see what it does.


oh yeah? do you use the 10 mm screws to hold the coil-packs in?

[jspaeth]

Of course I do....

However the one for the 1st cylinder is broken, so I put a piece of granite tile (decent insulator) on top of the coilpack and use the plastic cover to hold the coilpack down far enough....the graphite piece is more than thick enough.

IIRC, the one that had the weird color to it was NOT from the first cylinder anyway....


Justin


PS....do you know if when the spark plug gets pushed up into the coilpack....does it make contact with just the spring, or does it go up there enough to where the end of the plug actually contacts that "metal ring area" (the part where it is discolored on the one coilpack)?

[jspaeth]

EPIC FAIL


Just put the new Splitfires in, and for the first 5-7 minutes, the car DID actually feel smoother, better idle and got 2-3 pulls in to redline (slow throttle) and the car felt nearly perfect.

2 minutes later, as the engine bay (presumably) started to get hotter, the car started misfiring in the high RPM regime (like 6K).

10 minutes later, I couldn't rev past 4200 RPM.

It's not fuel....I slowly revved up to 4500 RPM in 4th gear, and watched the AFR hover around the 14.0 mark, and it still hit 4500 RPM and was just not igniting (tons of backfiring and the car won't go anywhere).


UPDATED LIST OF WHAT I HAVE DONE

1) New coilpacks
2) Checked ignitor per the fsm and it passed all of the continuity tests.
3) Proven that the misfires occur independent of load or AFR but ARE dependent on RPM.
4) Seen evidence multiple times that the misfiring starts to occur about 10 minutes after the car reaches operating temp
- Does not have anything to do with the coolant or aire temperature, as I can monitor both of these and see that when the misfiring begins, there is no change in the IAT or coolant temp.
5) Fuel pressure gauge shows that FP is fine.
6) Grounds from head to chassis and coilpack ground are both grounded EXCELLENTLY to bare metal on chassis.


NEW IDEAS/WHAT I AM GOING TO DO

1) Put in new plugs today
2) Put in new spark plug well gaskets and valve cover gasket (very miniscule oil seapage previously....no droplets, just a residue/tiny film in a few spots).

3) WHAT ELSE COULD IT BE?????????????????

4) Try to open ECU and look for anything on the board that looks fried?



THE KEY ISSUE HERE IS THAT IT IS TRIGGERED BY HEAT. PLEASE HELP ME FIGURE THIS OUT, I WANT MY OLD CAR BACK!!!!!!!!

[driftintheS14]

what plugs are you running? i have heard from numerous people that turbo cars do not like iridium plugsa at all and under boost they cut out, I have heard the best plug to use with turbo cars is a copper plug. anyone else ever hear of this?

i have a buddy that changed his plugs on his audi to iridium and was cutting out at high boost, put his old plugs back in and car ran perfect. also have found the same issue on 3 other cars

[jspaeth]

what plugs are you running? i have heard from numerous people that turbo cars do not like iridium plugsa at all and under boost they cut out, I have heard the best plug to use with turbo cars is a copper plug. anyone else ever hear of this?

i have a buddy that changed his plugs on his audi to iridium and was cutting out at high boost, put his old plugs back in and car ran perfect. also have found the same issue on 3 other cars


Already running copper plugs, but thanks anyway.

[jspaeth]

Ok, here is the ignition page from the FSM:

I am trying to systematically figure this out.....

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad316/golfertilltheend/Car%20Stuff/ignition.jpg


Working from the bottom to the top, taking into account that the problem begins WHEN the engine physically gets hotter (about 5-10 minutes after it reaches operating temperature of 80C or 185F)....

1) Ground in the bottom right (coilpack harness ground)....OKAY...grounded to firewall, bare metal.

2) Power wire (B/Y) coming from ignition relay.....OKAY....the car runs perfectly fine....other than high RPMs when hot....as far as I know, since the power is coming through the relay, this would either work or not work, but no "in between"

3) Coilpacks.....OKAY....the problem is STILL occurring, even with brand new Splitfire coilpacks

Provided the harnesses are okay (I have traced them as much as I can and don't see any exposed wires anywhere....the only two remaining things are

4) ECU....opened the ECU (PFC) and the board looks perfect, no spots no discoloration nothing wrong

5) Ignitor chip...doesn't get very hot sitting over on the intake manifold side of the engine bay, and it passes the FSM tests.

6) The actual tune......I have gone back and checked (4 TIMES!) to see if their is any differences between what is in the computer now and the last know "good" map (before this issue was occurring...) and I cannot find ANYthing different that would cause this issue.


PLEASE HELP



$5 PAYPALLED TO YOU IF YOU CAN FIGURE OUT WHAT IS WRONG AND HELP ME FIX THIS ISSUE!

[jamanrr]

Throwing this out there as something you should check since it is known to happen. The main relay if it is or has a intermittent heat problem could be bad in that once it gets hot it will cut in and out. Do you or have you every experienced any problems with starting the car when this occurs or when it gets hot?

[jspaeth]

Throwing this out there as something you should check since it is known to happen. The main relay if it is or has a intermittent heat problem could be bad in that once it gets hot it will cut in and out. Do you or have you every experienced any problems with starting the car when this occurs or when it gets hot?


YES! After the car heats up or whatever and goes through this process (misfiring above a certain RPM)....when I get home and turn the car off...

If I try to start the car immediately thereafter, it is nearly impossible to start.

I understand what you are saying, and I will certainly give it a shot (swap it with another relay), but how is the heat getting to a relay that is located over in the passenger side kick panel...and if the relay was intermmitent, wouldn't it be less predictable than what I am seeing (sputtering/misfiring occurs above a particular RPM)


....you are referring to the main ignition relay, right?

[jamanrr]

YES! After the car heats up or whatever and goes through this process (misfiring above a certain RPM)....when I get home and turn the car off...

If I try to start the car immediately thereafter, it is nearly impossible to start.

I understand what you are saying, and I will certainly give it a shot (swap it with another relay), but how is the heat getting to a relay that is located over in the passenger side kick panel...and if the relay was intermmitent, wouldn't it be less predictable than what I am seeing (sputtering/misfiring occurs above a particular RPM)


....you are referring to the main ignition relay, right?


right it happens on Hondas all the time. If I remember correctly the relays will develop cracks in them and then when they get hot or have heat in them they will have an intermediary problem. Just replace it and see if it helps. Additionally, do you hear your fuel pump prime when you have trouble starting the car? Yeah the main relay.

Not if it heats up or if the circuit board within the relay has micro cracks within them. Then when it heats up and does its resistance thing, the connection becomes funky and not 100 percent. make sense?

[jspaeth]

right it happens on Hondas all the time. If I remember correctly the relays will develop cracks in them and then when they get hot or have heat in them they will have an intermediary problem. Just replace it and see if it helps. Additionally, do you hear your fuel pump prime when you have trouble starting the car? Yeah the main relay.

i am like 99.99999999999999999999999999999% sure it is ignition related and not fuel.

will swap it with another relay tomorrow and give that a shot.

[jamanrr]

i am like 99.99999999999999999999999999999% sure it is ignition related and not fuel.

will swap it with another relay tomorrow and give that a shot.

yeah report back afterwards

[Z U L8R]

i highly doubt the ignition coil relay is your problem because it's probably not even there, nor needs to be.

you would be the only sr owner i have ever seen in 12 years have a sputtering problem caused by this. either they didn't wire power to the coils and the car didn't start, or it's wired in and that's it.

your power supply for your ignition coils are probably tapped off of your switched ignition 12volt power supply (black/red) wire, which is how 99% of sr swaps are wired up.

in japan from the factory there is a separate ignition coil relay.....i highly doubt your swap has that, or is the problem, because it's not a problem on anyone elses car.

at this point, you should get your car on a steady state dyno where you can log and inspect everything while it's acting up, then you'll be able to determine what's really going on and fix this problem.

i still think the problem is in the tune,

my .02

Dave

[jspaeth]

i highly doubt the ignition coil relay is your problem because it's probably not even there, nor needs to be.

you would be the only sr owner i have ever seen in 12 years have a sputtering problem caused by this. either they didn't wire power to the coils and the car didn't start, or it's wired in and that's it.

your power supply for your ignition coils are probably tapped off of your switched ignition 12volt power supply (black/red) wire, which is how 99% of sr swaps are wired up.

in japan from the factory there is a separate ignition coil relay.....i highly doubt your swap has that, or is the problem, because it's not a problem on anyone elses car.

at this point, you should get your car on a steady state dyno where you can log and inspect everything while it's acting up, then you'll be able to determine what's really going on and fix this problem.

i still think the problem is in the tune,

my .02

Dave

Dave, I do respect you....but I believe YOU don't trust me on this one.


The tune I am using has worked perfectly fine for 10 MONTHS in a row, never having ANY misfiring issues.

How is it the tune? A tune that is not good doesn't just randomly cause misfires after 10 months.

Furthermore, I ahve stated dozens of times that I can watch the AFR gauge and the problem happens at the same RPM, regardless of how much load is on the engine or what the AFR is.

Even yesterday, I was barely putting my foot on the throttle in 4th gear on the highway and at 4000 RPM in vacuum, the AFRs were like 14.0 and the car started misfiring as soon as it hit like 4200 RPM.

It is a bit frustrating when people say "it's the tune" or "check the fuel pressure" or stuff like that. I am not the world's best car person, but I really do understand all of this shit and have tried to very clearly present all of the steps I have followed and things I have checked.

I am about 99.99999999999% sure at this point that this is ignition related.


Dave, is there anything that you can think of that is IGNITION RELATED that would start causing misfires once the car gets hot (about 10 minutes after the coolant reaches 185F or so)?

A key thing here is that once the car warms up, it runs fine and revs out to 7500 RPM no problem....at this point the ECU is getting certain signals from sensors (coolant temp, air temp, etc).....5 minutes later, it is STILL getting the same signals from these sensors, but then it starts misfiring, and it gets worse with time.

I should add that after this happens, if I turn the car off, it is nearly impossible to start.....

[jspaeth]

Okay, well the problem is now getting worse with time, and is still "heat induced"

It now starts stumbling around 3700 RPM and fully misfiring around 4000 RPM.

My dad came for a ride with me, and we both agree that there is potentially a full "across the board" misfire....

The car stops pulling so abruptly that it seems like it can't be a single cylinder misfire.


THe fact that it is heat-induced and getting worse makes us think that it is an electrical connection....

Like I said, the ECU board looks okay, and things shouldn't really be getting very hot in the kick panel at all.


I am leaning towards ignitor chip now........if anyone can get me an ignitor chip for a reasonable price, I would really appreciate it (perhaps people doing VE heads swaps that are using a distributor now?)....

I am going to try to open the ignitor chip (probably a pain in the ass....) to see if something is wrong.


My dad (E.E.) thinks maybe it's possible that the single ground wire coming into the ignitor chip could have a bad (and getting worse with heat) connection inside, causing the across the board misfires.


Does anyone know what the circuit INSIDE the ignitor chip looks like?

[2fast4y0u]

damn dude, i have been gone for a few days and am just catching up.

check your tune... :) jk

this might sound crazy but could it be a coolant temp sensor, or something like that? i dont know a ton about this but, dont our car go through loop cycles? i might be using the wrong terms so bare with me.
start the car, it goes through a closed loop cycle..then after it warms it goes through another loop cycle.
i know i might sound crazy right now, but maybe that will steer you in the right direction.


side note: for it to be heat related, its something that has to be getting awfully hot...maybe check all your connectors that are near the block and also the wiring near the block.

[Z U L8R]

if we go with plan b....

could be the igniter, cam angle sensor, or could also be the maf (if you have one).

sometimes you don't get lucky with the typical can't rev passed 3k symptom. i've seen maf's make the car sputter, cut out, and die after 5-10 minutes of driving, then the car start right back up. or in your case the car hard to start.

datalog your rpm in graph mode like an osciliscope and if you see the rpm data breaking up then you can determine the cas is the culprit, or deduce it from the possible problems.

you should be able to identify the problem by datalogging.....

if the car's breaking up and everything being logged looks absolutely perfect then we can do other tests to deduce the problem.

gl,

Dave

[jamanrr]

Yes. this is the reason I always clean MAFs especially Nissan's. Had a Supercharged Frontier and it was sputtering and running like ass so I cleaned the MAF along with replacing a couple of O2 sensors. The same with the 240, I make sure my z32 maf is clean. They make Mass Air Flow cleaner.

[jspaeth]

Thanks for the suggestion guys.

This is a Power FC, D-Jetro.

I can see, on the screen, both coolant and air temp. Both are constant....not causing the problem.

Ideally, I would like to see what is going on with the CAS.

My money is on ignitor or CAS.....I have an ignitor coming in the mail which I am going to test out next weekend....until then, the issue is on hold....left the car at my parents house and borrowing my brother's car.


It is definitely spark related, not fuel.


After the car is turned off, I can't start it up again (when it's hot and the sputtering problem has been going on).....however, the fuel pressure is fine during cranking (FP gauge).


This is clearly ignition. It is either CAS or ignitor I think.


As said 100X already, the car runs PERFECT after it warms up....then 5-10 minutes later, the misfiring starts kicking in, and it gets worse with time.

After about 20 minutes of driving, the car was starting to misfire as early as 3800-4000 RPM.


As far as I am concerned, this almost surefire evidence that the issue is being caused by HEAT getting to something.....

And because of how the ignitor and CAS work and how heat could effect each one, my money is on a bad connection inside the ignitor that is getting screwed up as things heat up and expand.

We'll see next weekend!

[jamanrr]

Thanks for the suggestion guys.

This is a Power FC, D-Jetro.

I can see, on the screen, both coolant and air temp. Both are constant....not causing the problem.

Ideally, I would like to see what is going on with the CAS.

My money is on ignitor or CAS.....I have an ignitor coming in the mail which I am going to test out next weekend....until then, the issue is on hold....left the car at my parents house and borrowing my brother's car.


It is definitely spark related, not fuel.


After the car is turned off, I can't start it up again (when it's hot and the sputtering problem has been going on).....however, the fuel pressure is fine during cranking (FP gauge).


This is clearly ignition. It is either CAS or ignitor I think.


As said 100X already, the car runs PERFECT after it warms up....then 5-10 minutes later, the misfiring starts kicking in, and it gets worse with time.

After about 20 minutes of driving, the car was starting to misfire as early as 3800-4000 RPM.


As far as I am concerned, this almost surefire evidence that the issue is being caused by HEAT getting to something.....

And because of how the ignitor and CAS work and how heat could effect each one, my money is on a bad connection inside the ignitor that is getting screwed up as things heat up and expand.

We'll see next weekend!

did you check the ignition relay on the passenger side? I can hear it clicking when I turn the key to the on position. If you do not hear it fully click or engage it could also cause problems usually with the car not starting.

[veloz]

So I read through much of this thread and find it interesting.

I have a S14 Silvia - Full VTC,
Full Boost and Torque @ 3500 RPMS,
GT2860RS running 16 lbs - 300hp/300WTQ @ 11.5 AFR across the board
Stock Coil packs...BKR7E
NISTUNE

I had a bad sputtering like that once.
I Changed plugs like 1 MILLION times and would do it pretty much any time. I tried bkr6e, bkr7e, irridiums, v power, flat, etc.


It might not be your issue, but it's out there.

The coils WERE grounded to that little strap on the back of the valve cover. Very SMALL gauge Wire.

It MELTED the ground and I could see it smoking.

I redid the grounds on the entire car, and specifically re-grounded the main coil harness and rewired it and it went away.

If the problem got worse with the SPLITFIRES, You could try re-grounding each coil individually or at the very least redoing the ground.



Also, please change your plugs after your car runs like ass. If you foul them, you may not know if something has helped or not.



Just recently, I was competing in a Time Attack and my car sputtered at 6K like you are saying.

It cost me a podium hence I'm looking up the issue.

I did notice that the problems were worse when it was hot. My issue may be old coils or heat related.

Good Luck.

[jspaeth]

Thanks for your response.

The coilpack harness ground is now coming off of the splitfire box/module, and is grounded VERY well to the firewall, bare metal.

The head is grounded VERY well to the firewall, also bare metal.

The grounds for the ignitor are grounded to the intake manifold (have been for 5 years) and the manifold is grounded to chassis very well.

None of the grounds have changed at all over the past 5 years, and I see no evidence of melted wires or anything like that.

I am praying the ignitor chip is the issue.

[xska]

Remove CAS and spin the shaft, it should be constant resistance both way.
but if it spins free and drags, most likely bad bearing causing timing to jump up and down.

[jspaeth]

Remove CAS and spin the shaft, it should be constant resistance both way.
but if it spins free and drags, most likely bad bearing causing timing to jump up and down.

If the ignitor doesn't fix it, the CAS is next on my list.... I fail to see why there would be a CAS related issue that gets worse with heat.

Furthermore, the RPM at which the misfiring occurs has gotten lower and lower (used to be 6000, then 5000, now 3800-4000).

But....the car runs fine for the first 10-12 minutes after it is started.

[xska]

Heat expands bearing...?

[jspaeth]

Heat expands bearing...?


Possibly, but I honestly don't see that being a likely cause...the CAS will be the next thing I check, like I said,

But it sounds like it is getting NO spark or WEAK spark.....not "wrong-time" spark.

Also, once the problem kicks in, the car is nearly impossible to start....what type of timing does the car use when it is cranking?

[xska]

It should be between 0-20 btdc.
On L-jetro power fc, 3 or 5 btdc is on base map, but on D-jetro it maybe running off what's on first column, 10000 load.

[jspaeth]

It should be between 0-20 btdc.
On L-jetro power fc, 3 or 5 btdc is on base map, but on D-jetro it maybe running off what's on first column, 10000 load.


Okay so you are saying it will basically read off of the lowest RPM column and the row corresponding to atmospheric pressure....that is what I would have expected....

[VNG704]

Of course I do....

However the one for the 1st cylinder is broken, so I put a piece of granite tile (decent insulator) on top of the coilpack and use the plastic cover to hold the coilpack down far enough....the graphite piece is more than thick enough.

IIRC, the one that had the weird color to it was NOT from the first cylinder anyway....


Justin


PS....do you know if when the spark plug gets pushed up into the coilpack....does it make contact with just the spring, or does it go up there enough to where the end of the plug actually contacts that "metal ring area" (the part where it is discolored on the one coilpack)?


Just a guess, but I think the bolts that hold down the coil packs are also grounds for the coil packs. How did I guess this? Well I have the Sun Auto Hyperforce ignition thing and the wire harness for it has 4 ground wires that I ground to each of those 4 bolts that hold down the coil packs. Other wise why would Sun Auto have the grounds set up like that? Instead of one ground wire to chassis, know what I mean? So your problem could be that one missing bolt/ground. Try getting a bolt for that missing one.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Z U L8R]

dunno bout hyperforce coil packs, but the stock sr coil packs and the splitfires don't have to have the bolt there to ground it. it's there to just hold the coil onto the plug.

i was pretty sure you were d-jetro but i didn't feel like reading back through 3 pages lol which is why i said "(if you have one)" speaking about the maf.

because the problem has been getting progressively worse it does sound like a failing part slowly taking a crap, but like i said, if you can just log the rpm on your next test drive, datalog when it's sputtering and if the rpm log doesn't mimic the sputter or doesn't randomly cut out then you can pretty much deduce the cas as not the problem.

i know the car's at your parent's house so you can't go outside and do it right this minute, but log the rpm feedback on your next test drive when you pop the new ignitor in there.

gl, you're almost there.

Dave

[codyace]

Remove CAS and spin the shaft, it should be constant resistance both way.
but if it spins free and drags, most likely bad bearing causing timing to jump up and down.

Obivously I may be wrong, but I was always under the impression that the gear on the bottom of the cas shaft is 'direct' with the pickup wheel inside the CAS itself. As in, regardless of a bearing being shot, the direct gear to cam contact wouldn't rely on the bearing for the picup to work (as again, it's just a large round disc with XXX number of holes in it that a laser beam reads...

I could be way wrong, but this is just off the top of my head


Just a guess, but I think the bolts that hold down the coil packs are also grounds for the coil packs. How did I guess this? Well I have the Sun Auto Hyperforce ignition thing and the wire harness for it has 4 ground wires that I ground to each of those 4 bolts that hold down the coil packs. Other wise why would Sun Auto have the grounds set up like that? Instead of one ground wire to chassis, know what I mean? So your problem could be that one missing bolt/ground. Try getting a bolt for that missing one.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


I'm about 95% sure they are not the ground, as the ground goes through the clip/wiring to each one. I know the part where the bolt goes through are metal, but it's in essence just a bushing in an otherwise all plastic housing.


Justin: When you develop the misfire issue, does it do it when free revving?

CAS can seem like a likely culprit for sure...as before, i would almost always say 'maf issue' for most people, but being that you don't have it, there are only like 3 other things that can trigger this issue, CAS, and CTS.

[jspaeth]

Just a guess, but I think the bolts that hold down the coil packs are also grounds for the coil packs. How did I guess this? Well I have the Sun Auto Hyperforce ignition thing and the wire harness for it has 4 ground wires that I ground to each of those 4 bolts that hold down the coil packs. Other wise why would Sun Auto have the grounds set up like that? Instead of one ground wire to chassis, know what I mean? So your problem could be that one missing bolt/ground. Try getting a bolt for that missing one.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you for trying, but this isn't the issue.

dunno bout hyperforce coil packs, but the stock sr coil packs and the splitfires don't have to have the bolt there to ground it. it's there to just hold the coil onto the plug.

i was pretty sure you were d-jetro but i didn't feel like reading back through 3 pages lol which is why i said "(if you have one)" speaking about the maf.

because the problem has been getting progressively worse it does sound like a failing part slowly taking a crap, but like i said, if you can just log the rpm on your next test drive, datalog when it's sputtering and if the rpm log doesn't mimic the sputter or doesn't randomly cut out then you can pretty much deduce the cas as not the problem.

i know the car's at your parent's house so you can't go outside and do it right this minute, but log the rpm feedback on your next test drive when you pop the new ignitor in there.

gl, you're almost there.

Dave

Will do.

Obivously I may be wrong, but I was always under the impression that the gear on the bottom of the cas shaft is 'direct' with the pickup wheel inside the CAS itself. As in, regardless of a bearing being shot, the direct gear to cam contact wouldn't rely on the bearing for the picup to work (as again, it's just a large round disc with XXX number of holes in it that a laser beam reads...

I could be way wrong, but this is just off the top of my head





I'm about 95% sure they are not the ground, as the ground goes through the clip/wiring to each one. I know the part where the bolt goes through are metal, but it's in essence just a bushing in an otherwise all plastic housing.


Justin: When you develop the misfire issue, does it do it when free revving?

CAS can seem like a likely culprit for sure...as before, i would almost always say 'maf issue' for most people, but being that you don't have it, there are only like 3 other things that can trigger this issue, CAS, and CTS.


Haven't tried it free revving yet, but good idea.

What is the CTS? (lame of me to not know....googling now).

EDIT:

Duh, before I even got to google...I remember it is an abbrev. for Coolant Temp. Sensor.

Well, I know it isn't that, because I can physically read the temperature off of the PFC Commander....and it is a steady 81-83 Celsius.

Praying to god I don't have to buy a new CAS.....

[jspaeth]

Worth a read...makes me feel better :-)

Faulty Ignition Control Module Symptoms | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/list_6300728_faulty-ignition-control-module-symptoms.html)


By the way, since the ignitor chip has metal on one side, is it recommended to mount it to the firewall somewhere to pull heat from it?

[2fast4y0u]

i have had my swap done and running for a while with the ignitor chip sitting in a bunch of wires with no heat issues to it. it probably wouldnt be a bad thing to do, but not necessary

[jspaeth]

i have had my swap done and running for a while with the ignitor chip sitting in a bunch of wires with no heat issues to it. it probably wouldnt be a bad thing to do, but not necessary

I would have said the same thing...going on 4 years....

[2fast4y0u]

yeah man, this is strange. hopefully u figure it out soon.

[jspaeth]

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK

New ignitor chip in, and the EXACT same behavior

Car drove fine for 15 minutes, then started to misfire around 6K, then around 5K, finally down around 4K.


I am so completely and utterly fucked

Does anyone have any ideas PLEASE?


I have replaced Ignitor, spark plugs, and coilpacks, and still the same issues.


The only things left are CAS (VERY doubtful, because of the way the car is running) and the ECU


If it is the ECU, I am gonna flip the fuck out, because that's gonna cost me about a grand to replace.


does anyone have any miracle ideas for me????



$20 paypalled to you if you come up with the solution to my issue, guaranteed.

[jamanrr]

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK

New ignitor chip in, and the EXACT same behavior

Car drove fine for 15 minutes, then started to misfire around 6K, then around 5K, finally down around 4K.


I am so completely and utterly fucked

Does anyone have any ideas PLEASE?


I have replaced Ignitor, spark plugs, and coilpacks, and still the same issues.


The only things left are CAS (VERY doubtful, because of the way the car is running) and the ECU


If it is the ECU, I am gonna flip the fuck out, because that's gonna cost me about a grand to replace.


does anyone have any miracle ideas for me????



$20 paypalled to you if you come up with the solution to my issue, guaranteed.

Dude. Do NOT get frustrated. Keep your head or your never gonna find it. I almost bought a brand new built bottom end (which I want to do anyway) before I noticed I blew a coupler off instead of the engine. I would look at fuel now if you have checked the grounds and ignition. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? If it is like a fuel cut out then your pressure might be dropping some how. If you have opened your ECU up and looked at and saw no burnt electronic bits and everything is ok then you need to look at things it has to be instead of guessing at things you know it can not be. It will be the last thing that you check. good luck.

[xska]

Bad CAS does weird stuff, mifire at high RPM, no start, runs but no power, bouncing tach.
power-fc is very liable unless engine harness is wired wrong or shorted.
And did you check power wire from alternator to fuse box?
Everybody talks about ground wires all the time, but bad power wire does same thing.

[jspaeth]

Dude. Do NOT get frustrated. Keep your head or your never gonna find it. I almost bought a brand new built bottom end (which I want to do anyway) before I noticed I blew a coupler off instead of the engine. I would look at fuel now if you have checked the grounds and ignition. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? If it is like a fuel cut out then your pressure might be dropping some how. If you have opened your ECU up and looked at and saw no burnt electronic bits and everything is ok then you need to look at things it has to be instead of guessing at things you know it can not be. It will be the last thing that you check. good luck.

I have never once just "stabbed at this problem BLINDLY"....

I have systematically checked out EVERY SINGLE part of the ignition diagram that I posted in this thread earlier. Checked continuity on all wires (CAS included), new ignitor, new coilpacks....


The only thing I still have to check would be to swap out the ignition coil relay for a different relay....I HIGHLY doubt that a relay can cause such heat and RPM-dependent problems however

Bad CAS does weird stuff, mifire at high RPM, no start, runs but no power, bouncing tach.
power-fc is very liable unless engine harness is wired wrong or shorted.
And did you check power wire from alternator to fuse box?
Everybody talks about ground wires all the time, but bad power wire does same thing.


Okay. Let me set this straight....I DO appreciate your help....


The car is wired PROPERLY....this has been a PEFECTLY-FUNCTIONING SR swap for 5 years.

The latest mechanical engine changes (head work and cams and stuff) ahs been working perfectly for 10 MONTHS.


This is not something like "wrong timing" or "bad tune".



With that in mind, I have an in cabin fuel-pressure gauge, so I can confirm that FP is where it's supposed to be.


The misfires are not "lean misfires", they are super-rich backfires that are occurring....fuel IS being delivered, but not ignited, as far as I can tell.

[xska]

So you are on same CAS for 5 years and if it's original one from S14... 15 years old.
I have seen two S15 CAS going bad ....S13 i have replaced 7-8, S14 2-3.
They are like brake pads, it's not going to last forever.
New CAS is worth changing for future problem, even it's not your problem now.
BUT DONT BUY CHINA CAS. You must buy nissan oem, for better result.

[KiLLeR2001]

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK

New ignitor chip in, and the EXACT same behavior

Car drove fine for 15 minutes, then started to misfire around 6K, then around 5K, finally down around 4K.

$20 paypalled to you if you come up with the solution to my issue, guaranteed.


This is telling me something HEAT related is causing problems. Do you have a heat shield on the exhaust manifold? Look for wires close to any hot spots in your engine bay and bend the wires around to see if they bend easy or if they are hard and brittle.

If your engine runs fine when you first start it, then when it gets to operating temp it starts to have issues, I'd say go from there.

[jspaeth]

This is telling me something HEAT related is causing problems. Do you have a heat shield on the exhaust manifold? Look for wires close to any hot spots in your engine bay and bend the wires around to see if they bend easy or if they are hard and brittle.

If your engine runs fine when you first start it, then when it gets to operating temp it starts to have issues, I'd say go from there.


Thank you for chiming in....I agree (have determined this a while ago) that it is heat related.

The only things left are:

1) CAS
2) ECU
3) Ignition Coil relay (very very very very doubtful).


It is possible (I hope it's not) that the ECU has something going on microscopically on the circuit board that only manifests itself when the car has been running for a while.


I am hoping it is the CAS before the ECU, but other than those two, don't know what else it could be.



I am going to try swapping back in my old injectors, MAF sensor, and stock ECU....

If the problem goes away, then I KNOW it is either the ECU itself or something funky (corrupted tune?....I DOUBT THIS, because that wouldn't manifest itself after 20 minutes of driving....)


ALSO, I should add that the fact that the car won't start when it gets like this (even though the car was just running fine between 0 and 4000 RPM) leads me to believe that it is NOT the CAS....

if it WAS the CAS, how could the car run fine between 0 and 4000 RPM but then not start up?


Sounds like weak/bad spark to me.

[Mirage]

I didn't read last 2 pages, i'm about to go to bed, but i'll fire off my experience that may help you out here. I had bad stumbling at higher rpm's too when the car warmed up.

Do you have e-fans? I had a similar problem that I couldn't figure it out. I finally got my wideband and watched, and as soon as the car was getting warmed up and fans kicking on and off (greddy mss controlled) I could watch my afr's dip in to the 9-10's. Same with the rear defrost or headlights, I knew it had to be a ground issue. Ended up being the negative terminal ground, not the terminal itself, but the where it bolts to the body by the fusebox was loose, and would make it sporadic at first, then it got worse, but the weld nut was stripped out and rusty so I sanded the paint underneath and threw a nut on the underside of it as well. Might be worth it to double check all your grounds if you haven't already.

I'll get back to this post tomorrow morning after work read the other 2 pages, so sorry if i'm repeating anything thats already been said.

[jspaeth]

I didn't read last 2 pages, i'm about to go to bed, but i'll fire off my experience that may help you out here. I had bad stumbling at higher rpm's too when the car warmed up.

Do you have e-fans? I had a similar problem that I couldn't figure it out. I finally got my wideband and watched, and as soon as the car was getting warmed up and fans kicking on and off (greddy mss controlled) I could watch my afr's dip in to the 9-10's. Same with the rear defrost or headlights, I knew it had to be a ground issue. Ended up being the negative terminal ground, not the terminal itself, but the where it bolts to the body by the fusebox was loose, and would make it sporadic at first, then it got worse, but the weld nut was stripped out and rusty so I sanded the paint underneath and threw a nut on the underside of it as well. Might be worth it to double check all your grounds if you haven't already.

I'll get back to this post tomorrow morning after work read the other 2 pages, so sorry if i'm repeating anything thats already been said.

It's okay, thanks for trying...

I too have a wideband....and the AFRs are perfect...

For example, under slight vacuum, I can slowly rev the car up and watch the AFRs stay in the 14-15 range.

So it is not due to it being too rich.



JUST put in old injectors and stock ECU and MAF....about to go see what happens......


I am PRAYING that it does NOT work....because if it does, it means my PowerFC is probably hosed internally.

[KiLLeR2001]

ALSO, I should add that the fact that the car won't start when it gets like this (even though the car was just running fine between 0 and 4000 RPM) leads me to believe that it is NOT the CAS....

if it WAS the CAS, how could the car run fine between 0 and 4000 RPM but then not start up?


Sounds like weak/bad spark to me.

Does the car continue to crank over but never start? Then you have to wait like 10-20 mins until it will start again? I read this thread a few days ago so I can't remember but, have you recently replaced your ecu coolant temp sensor? I've replaced a few of these sensors personally and when they go bad they always make the car run like shit. Once the car is shut off after it gets warmed up, it will not crank over until about 10 to 20 minutes.

I doubt its the CAS...

[jspaeth]

Does the car continue to crank over but never start? Then you have to wait like 10-20 mins until it will start again? I read this thread a few days ago so I can't remember but, have you recently replaced your ecu coolant temp sensor? I've replaced a few of these sensors personally and when they go bad they always make the car run like shit. Once the car is shut off after it gets warmed up, it will not crank over until about 10 to 20 minutes.

I doubt its the CAS...

Just found an indication that it may be the Ignition Coil Relay.

If this is the case, the person that told me to check it will get a few bucks.


Anyway, put back in the stock ECU, MAF, and Injectors....car wouldn't start....even after letting it sit the whole weekend...

SO I FINALLY checked the Ignition coil relay....sure as shit, it was not clicking.

The hot side of the coil on that relay was not getting power....ground was good, and hot switched side was good, but the hot side of the coil was not getting shit.


I can temporarily splice a wire into the switched 12V coming out of the ECCS relay, and splice it into the hot side of the coil for ignition relay...


However, I would like to trace that wire back and see where the connection is bad.


If this is the "overall" problem, I will be dumbfounded.....how could the relay supply power to the coils up to a certain RPM, and then stop doing so past a certain RPM?

[2fast4y0u]

i will try to keep this story as short as possible. so get this. like a month ago i got a new rom tune from Enthalpy that has a launch controller in it. my car ran great so the tune was staying the same but the launch controller was new. get the chips, put them in, car no run...
make some phone calls, get new chips again, nothing. send in my ecu, get it back, no fuel pump now. i have to by pass the fuel pump wire in the ecu and ground it just to make my fuel pump work.
yesterday i had some extra time so i figured i was do some things to my car that needed to be done.
cleaned my iacv, checked my coolant level, etc... i remembered that during this whole ordeal my turbo timer stop working(yeah i know they are stupid but i like it). so i wanted to look into this.
well, after searching near my ecu i find that the fuel pump from the ecu wire that i had to cut and ground and been melted by a power wire and are touching. burned the insulation clear through on both wires. im pretty sure its the power wire for my turbo timer.
come to find out the ecu fuel pump wire supplies a ground to the relay, and the power wire that melted obviously has 12v to it.

moral of the story, check your wiring to the ecu. could be something getting hot in there

[jamanrr]

Just found an indication that it may be the Ignition Coil Relay.

If this is the case, the person that told me to check it will get a few bucks.


Anyway, put back in the stock ECU, MAF, and Injectors....car wouldn't start....even after letting it sit the whole weekend...

SO I FINALLY checked the Ignition coil relay....sure as shit, it was not clicking.

The hot side of the coil on that relay was not getting power....ground was good, and hot switched side was good, but the hot side of the coil was not getting shit.


I can temporarily splice a wire into the switched 12V coming out of the ECCS relay, and splice it into the hot side of the coil for ignition relay...


However, I would like to trace that wire back and see where the connection is bad.


If this is the "overall" problem, I will be dumbfounded.....how could the relay supply power to the coils up to a certain RPM, and then stop doing so past a certain RPM?

Yeah that be me. Instead of the money how about some beer -- Ice Cold Dos XXXs or some Corina Extra would work... amigo

Oh yeah and those relays when they go bad or have an intermittent problem like you have described they can affect everything from the fuel pump not being able to function properly and thus resulting in your break up. When you can not start it -- does it just crank and crank and no ignition. You should hear several things happening when you turn your key to on. The relay on the passenger side click and the fuel pump priming and on a walbro it is very noticeable.

oh yeah on a side note. those relays have circuit lines in them that will and can develop micro cracks in them. These over time led to various problems including not being able to start your car when it is hot. You can actually see them sometimes under a magnifying glass.

[jspaeth]

Yeah that be me. Instead of the money how about some beer -- Ice Cold Dos XXXs or some Corina Extra would work... amigo

Oh yeah and those relays when they go bad or have an intermittent problem like you have described they can affect everything from the fuel pump not being able to function properly and thus resulting in your break up. When you can not start it -- does it just crank and crank and no ignition. You should hear several things happening when you turn your key to on. The relay on the passenger side click and the fuel pump priming and on a walbro it is very noticeable.

oh yeah on a side note. those relays have circuit lines in them that will and can develop micro cracks in them. These over time led to various problems including not being able to start your car when it is hot. You can actually see them sometimes under a magnifying glass.


UPDATE:

The Coil Relay does NOT click......but the ECCS relay does.


So, I tried jumpering a wire from the switched 12V of the ECCS to the + side of the coil on the Coil Relay.


NOW IT CLICKS.


HOWEVER, I then un-jumpered it....put it to the ON position....and NO click....as expected.....however, I then tried to start the car and it DID turn over....

WTF???????

So I have never had ANY electrical issues in 4+ years on this swap, and now it appears as though whoever wired the car, simply bypassed the ignition coil relay.....um....okay?

hahah

Well, perhaps that connection (no freaking clue where it is) is a bad connection....


I am going to check continuity between the switched side of the Coil Relay and the + terminal of the coilpacks....

If I get continuity, then I am going to simply splice the ignition coil relay coil-side + wire to the 12V switched wire coming off of the ECCS relay.......this is how it's done in the FSM.

[jspaeth]

Okay, so whoever did my wiring bypassed the ignition coil relay and is using the switched power coming FROM the ECCS relay as power to the coilpacks.


I checked to make sure the power wire in the plug that goes to the coilpack harness has 12V, and it does....

However, I have yet to check it when the problem starts occurring.....

[jamanrr]

Okay, so whoever did my wiring bypassed the ignition coil relay and is using the switched power coming FROM the ECCS relay as power to the coilpacks.


I checked to make sure the power wire in the plug that goes to the coilpack harness has 12V, and it does....

However, I have yet to check it when the problem starts occurring.....

that could be hard to do unless you have someone with you to test it out when it happens. Wiring in s14s sucks that is why I paid 380 to have yuri at wiring specialties do it.

[jspaeth]

that could be hard to do unless you have someone with you to test it out when it happens. Wiring in s14s sucks that is why I paid 380 to have yuri at wiring specialties do it.


This is like super ghey...I feel like I am never gonna figure this out.

The problem only occurs after like 15 minutes of driving.

At that point, everything under the hood is so fucking hot I can't even touch it.

[codyace]

i'm glad you were at least able to determine/troubleshoot to the basic issue


regardless though, i hate not knowing the exact answer!

[2fast4y0u]

how close are those relays to heat? im not exactly sure where they are located hence my asking.
could they be getting hot and failing under load?

ninja edit: are they the same as another realy that you swap out on your car and see if the issue continues? like the fog light relay and the fuel pump relay...same thing.

[jspaeth]

how close are those relays to heat? im not exactly sure where they are located hence my asking.
could they be getting hot and failing under load?

ninja edit: are they the same as another realy that you swap out on your car and see if the issue continues? like the fog light relay and the fuel pump relay...same thing.


Not close at all...they are under the kickpanel on pass. side.


As said before, it looks like the person who did my swap directly wired the power wire that feeds the coilpacks to the triggered power of the main ECCS relay, rather than using the Ignition coil relay, like the FSM does.


I don't think it is the relay....because this relay also provides power to the ECU itself....

So if the relay were giving intermittant power to the coilpacks, the ECU would not be getting steady power either, which it is.....


So it seems it is either the ECU or the CAS.....



On another note, when I restarted the car, I had forgotten to plug in coilpack #1, so I got a fresh feeling of what the car feels like when only 1 cylinder is missing.......let me tell you, the misfire I have is FAR too bad to be just a single cylinder missing....I swear that they are ALL missing.



Also, I put back in MAF, stock injectors, and stock ECU, but couldn't start the car....not sure why....

the only thing I could think of was that the extra wire to the ECU that I added for the PFC (Air Temp sensor) was screwing up the stock ECU.....??

[KiLLeR2001]

Have you replaced the ECU Coolant Sensor? They go without warning. I would definitely buy one ($15) and swap it in first, better than buying another CAS or ECU. If you have an S13 SR or S14 SR you can get one from Auto zone from a '96 300zx Twin Turbo. Also check the wires that go to this sensor and make sure its clipped on there correctly, there's a metal clip that locks it into place, if that clip isn't there it will probably wiggle around and not output the correct values.

Can you pull codes using your stock ECU? Anything come up?

[jspaeth]

Have you replaced the ECU Coolant Sensor? They go without warning. I would definitely buy one ($15) and swap it in first, better than buying another CAS or ECU. If you have an S13 SR or S14 SR you can get one from Auto zone from a '96 300zx Twin Turbo. Also check the wires that go to this sensor and make sure its clipped on there correctly, there's a metal clip that locks it into place, if that clip isn't there it will probably wiggle around and not output the correct values.

Can you pull codes using your stock ECU? Anything come up?


I have a PowerFC so I can read the digital Coolant Temp Sensor and it is a steady 81-84 C....that isn't the issue....

The car is not misfiring due to richness....let me say this yet again.....



As far as the stock ECU....when I put it in, I couldn't get the car to start....not sure why....maybe i needed to remove the one or 2 wires that I added to the harness for the PFC (intake air temp signal and ground)?????

[KiLLeR2001]

I have a PowerFC so I can read the digital Coolant Temp Sensor and it is a steady 81-84 C....that isn't the issue....

The car is not misfiring due to richness....let me say this yet again.....



As far as the stock ECU....when I put it in, I couldn't get the car to start....not sure why....maybe i needed to remove the one or 2 wires that I added to the harness for the PFC (intake air temp signal and ground)?????

You need to fix the coil relay issue per FSM like you said, and then you need to see with the stock ECU if you are even getting spark at all.

edit:

First things first though, pull codes from your ecu..

TPS and/or Temp. Sensor interchange, anyone? let's not hijack this.

- this is general for 89-98 Nissan but most apply to the SR20 motor.
- to set car into diag. mode, with the key in the "ON" position, turn potentometer screw on ECU fully clockwise, then turn it fully counterclockwise. The LED on the ECU will begin to flash.
- first digit = LONG blink; second digit = SHORT blink (ex: 1... 1... 1... 1... then 1-1-1 equals 43 = TPS)

Error Codes Biatch
11 Crank Angle Sensor/Camshaft Position Sensor.
12 Air Flow Meter/Mass Air Flow Sensor.
13 Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor.
14 Vehicle Speed Sensor.
21 Ignition Signal.
22 Fuel Pump.
23 Idle Switch.
24 Throttle Valve Switch.
25 Idle Speed Control Valve.
28 Cooling Fan Circuit.
31 ECM.
32 EGR Function.
33 Heated Oxygen Sensor.
34 Knock Sensor.
35 Exhaust Gas Temperature Sensor.
36 EGR Control-Back Pressure Transducer.
37 Knock Sensor.
38 Right hand bank Closed Loop (B2).
41 Intake Air Temperature Sensor.
42 Fuel Temperature Sensor.
43 Throttle Position Sensor.
45 Injector Leak.
47 Crankshaft Position Sensor.
51 Injector Circuit.
53 Oxygen Sensor.
54 A/T Control.
55 No Malfunction.
63 No. 6 Cylinder Misfire.
64 No. 5 Cylinder Misfire.
65 No. 4 Cylinder Misfire.
66 No. 3 Cylinder Misfire.
67 No. 2 Cylinder Misfire.
68 No. 1 Cylinder Misfire.
71 Random Misfire.
72 TWC Function right hand bank.
73 TWC Function right hand bank.
76 Fuel Injection System Function right hand bank.
77 Rear Heated Oxygen Sensor Circuit.
82 Crankshaft Position Sensor.
84 A/T Diagnosis Communication Line.
85 VTC Solenoid Valve Circuit.
86 Fuel Injection System Function right hand bank.
87 Canister Control Solenoid Valve Circuit.
91 Front Heated Oxygen Sensor Heater Circuit right hand bank.
94 TCC Solenoid Valve.
95 Crankshaft Position Sensor.
98 Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor.
101 Front Heated Oxygen Sensor Heater Circuit right hand bank.
103 Park/Neutral Position Switch Circuit.
105 EGR and EGR Canister Control Solenoid Valve Circuit.
108 Canister Purge Control Valve Circuit.

[jspaeth]

You need to fix the coil relay issue per FSM like you said, and then you need to see with the stock ECU if you are even getting spark at all.

edit:

First things first though, pull codes from your ecu..

I don't see how the coil relay being used or not used makes a difference...the coilpacks are getting 12V...I checked...

Anyway, I tried putting the stock injectors back in, as well as the MAF, and the stock ECU...

Car will NOT start....can't really tell why.....fuel pump primes and gives the right fuel pressure....

Tried pulling codes (by jumping pin 23 with 12V for 2 seconds....I have a J4 ecu, so no screw....)

Sure as shit, I get nothing (except for a 55, which means nothing is wrong).

Then, I unplugged the MAF, and did it, and same thing, 55....

Does the car need to be running for it to throw codes?


Anyway, it would be nice if I could get the car to run on the stock ECU....it used to run (about 3 years ago) no problem on stock injectors and stock ECU, but now it won't even start up at all haha.

If I could get it to run on stock ECU, I could tell if the ECU was the issue....

[2fast4y0u]

car does not have to be running to pull codes..just the key on.

i was really hoping to see a post in big letters saying you solved the issue. im sad now.
did you have all the mods to your car when you ran the stock ecu? that might be the reason it wont start. i never attempted to start my car after i put on the 2871 and 850 injectors. i got a rom tune, then i started it.

[jspaeth]

car does not have to be running to pull codes..just the key on.

i was really hoping to see a post in big letters saying you solved the issue. im sad now.
did you have all the mods to your car when you ran the stock ecu? that might be the reason it wont start. i never attempted to start my car after i put on the 2871 and 850 injectors. i got a rom tune, then i started it.

um cams and turbo no, but I swapped back in stock injectors and set the MAF back up....so it SHOULD start right up.

Have CAS coming in the mail, hopefully problem will be solved by next weekend....

This is the worst thing trying to troubleshoot....

If it ends up being CAS, it will be that I just "tried a new one" and fixed it....but I am not sure how one could "logically" determine that the CAS intermittantly failing is the issue, unless you had an oscilloscope or whatever....

[2fast4y0u]

i see.
well ic an tell you this becase im starting to deal with this issue as well.
check that disc in the cas again. i think i remember you telling us its wasnt a bad dent but it was there.
im installing a aem ems today and i have to order a new cas disc because theres an issue with SOME sr redtop discs and the ems. If it is something that AEM has found to be and issue, my guess is that this disc is pretty important.

[US240MP]

I know that I am obviously new to this site, but not to cars, and not to 240s... What are you using as the source power for your Coils? Is it sharing a circuit with something else? If it is, it may be that you are not getting enough current to the coils. Sure, you would still see 12v, but not enough current to produce a solid spark. If it shares its source with something else, buy a $.99 relay from an auto part store, wire it to output straight from a 12v source, (battery) w/ a fuse of course. Its a cheap and quick test to make sure that you are getting adequate current. As for everything else, way to stick with it... This thread has to be one of the best that I have read in a while...except for no one reading the entire thread and just throwing in their .02 that have been said by 10 ppl before them... Thanks

[jspaeth]

I know that I am obviously new to this site, but not to cars, and not to 240s... What are you using as the source power for your Coils? Is it sharing a circuit with something else? If it is, it may be that you are not getting enough current to the coils. Sure, you would still see 12v, but not enough current to produce a solid spark. If it shares its source with something else, buy a $.99 relay from an auto part store, wire it to output straight from a 12v source, (battery) w/ a fuse of course. Its a cheap and quick test to make sure that you are getting adequate current. As for everything else, way to stick with it... This thread has to be one of the best that I have read in a while...except for no one reading the entire thread and just throwing in their .02 that have been said by 10 ppl before them... Thanks


I believe it may be sharing power with the ECU, which shouldn't be drawing much power....the main ECCS relay's switched power should go only to the ECU and to the coil side of the ignition coil relay, and that's it......however, it appears as though the person who did my swap bypassed the ignition coil relay and used the switched power coming off of the ECCS relay to directly power the coilpacks....

I find it hard to believe that the ECU is drawing such a significant amount of current to be causing insufficient current to the coilpacks....bt your point is still a good one...ideally, the coilpacks should have their own dedicated source from the battery, with a relay of course....

I just found this out this weekend (swap done by someone else....other than this "oddity", everything else has been perfect 4+ years in terms of wiring and electronics....).

Also, I was thinking the same thing, but the fact is that the car had sufficient current to create spark for the past 4 years, so I don't see that it would all of a sudden change.

Nonetheless, I agree with what you wrote as being a possible problem....in this case, however, due to how long the car functioned perfectly, I think it is something else (electronics getting heat-soaked....leaning towards CAS right now).....

[US240MP]

I agree that it would be strange to have something soooo simple create such a problem all of a sudden... I just know that even simple electronics, not only hate heat with a passion, but also can randomly fail. When they fail they also can act inconsistently at random times... I am sure that in good circumstances that the ECU wouldn't be drawing enough current to effect it, but with age, heat, and abuse (vibrations)... Who knows... Good luck brah... I am looking forward to the outcome. The suspense is getting to me a lil... I might have to make popcorn every day I read this...lol

[jspaeth]

For those following my problem in this thread, please see a new thread that I have just created in Tech Talk.......I logged CAS voltages.....

http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/330677-bad-cas-datalogs-voltage-inside.html#post3525443

[2fast4y0u]

i to am trying to hunt down a similar issue now...went to the track on friday night and i can feel power loss around the 6k rpm range. it takes forever to get to redline now for some reason.
my et's were TERRIBLE!!!

[jspaeth]

Okay...update....

This may seem silly....now....it doesn't take much heat to initialize the issue, whereas before it took a while for it to kick in.

started up the car, let it run for like 3 minutes, turned it off.

When I turned it off, I couldn't start it....tried a few times, would NOT turn over for shit.



So then, I go under the hood, and quickly take the cover off the CAS and put an ice pack on the plastic part where you can't "see" the disk....the part where the sender or reciever of the light beam must be contained.

Leave the ice pack on for like 45 seconds....

Then the car starts up without much of an issue.


Let it run again for 5 mintues, turn it off....try starting it like 5 times but no start.


Ice pack on CAS....and voilla, it starts up.


I NEED A CAS!!!!!!!!!!!! SOMEBODY PLEASE!!!!!!

I am going nuts....I jsut bought 2 CAS off of someone on here, and they were sposed to get here this weekend, and sure as shit, the kid had some problems and never told me, and they were never even shipped.

To make it worse, he later found out they weren't even working CAS....FUCK

I am trying so hard to find someone in my area to borrow a CAS or something....or just to buy a working one from a legit person on here.


$350 for a brand new one is going to own me pretty hard.

[jamanrr]

Okay...update....

This may seem silly....now....it doesn't take much heat to initialize the issue, whereas before it took a while for it to kick in.

started up the car, let it run for like 3 minutes, turned it off.

When I turned it off, I couldn't start it....tried a few times, would NOT turn over for shit.



So then, I go under the hood, and quickly take the cover off the CAS and put an ice pack on the plastic part where you can't "see" the disk....the part where the sender or reciever of the light beam must be contained.

Leave the ice pack on for like 45 seconds....

Then the car starts up without much of an issue.


Let it run again for 5 mintues, turn it off....try starting it like 5 times but no start.


Ice pack on CAS....and voilla, it starts up.


I NEED A CAS!!!!!!!!!!!! SOMEBODY PLEASE!!!!!!

I am going nuts....I jsut bought 2 CAS off of someone on here, and they were sposed to get here this weekend, and sure as shit, the kid had some problems and never told me, and they were never even shipped.

To make it worse, he later found out they weren't even working CAS....FUCK

I am trying so hard to find someone in my area to borrow a CAS or something....or just to buy a working one from a legit person on here.


$350 for a brand new one is going to own me pretty hard.

why would you want a used one any way? hit up the uk ebay sites. I am sure they have many from which to choose and they have been tested.

[NMs14.5kouki]

I believe i have one that is in good working shape... i will check in the morning. pm me if your interested in it. hope thats the problem.

Okay...update....

This may seem silly....now....it doesn't take much heat to initialize the issue, whereas before it took a while for it to kick in.

started up the car, let it run for like 3 minutes, turned it off.

When I turned it off, I couldn't start it....tried a few times, would NOT turn over for shit.



So then, I go under the hood, and quickly take the cover off the CAS and put an ice pack on the plastic part where you can't "see" the disk....the part where the sender or reciever of the light beam must be contained.

Leave the ice pack on for like 45 seconds....

Then the car starts up without much of an issue.


Let it run again for 5 mintues, turn it off....try starting it like 5 times but no start.


Ice pack on CAS....and voilla, it starts up.


I NEED A CAS!!!!!!!!!!!! SOMEBODY PLEASE!!!!!!

I am going nuts....I jsut bought 2 CAS off of someone on here, and they were sposed to get here this weekend, and sure as shit, the kid had some problems and never told me, and they were never even shipped.

To make it worse, he later found out they weren't even working CAS....FUCK

I am trying so hard to find someone in my area to borrow a CAS or something....or just to buy a working one from a legit person on here.


$350 for a brand new one is going to own me pretty hard.

[GSXRJJordan]

CAS

Figured it could be the CAS, pages ago. Sucks dude, buy a new one.

[510-SR20DET]

i say buy a new one. You'll save money in the long run.

[2fast4y0u]

after following this thread i want to send you mine just so u can check and see if its the CAS before u buy one....i think u r s14 sr and im s13 sr :(

[mattsil80wis]

cody is gonna call you in a bit

(we were doing a fireworks show when you called him last night)

we are gonna send you mine

[240sxspeed]

bkr8eix the only plug to run

[240sxspeed]

and if your air to fuel is anything under 11.6 which is still a bit rich at high rp,s your asking for a cracked ring land been there done that pull fuel and keep eye on wideband

[codyace]

Figured it could be the CAS, pages ago. Sucks dude, buy a new one.

Hehe the only thing that seemed odd to us at first, was the intermittance of the issue, as well as the heat issue. I wouldn't have imagined heat playing a role with the little board in them, but I guess it does. While I wasn't a big believer in the coil packs being bad, I guess (and shame on me for overlooking it as well) there isn't much left to diagnose from.



bkr8eix the only plug to run

and if your air to fuel is anything under 11.6 which is still a bit rich at high rp,s your asking for a cracked ring land been there done that pull fuel and keep eye on wideband


I understand you're trying to help, but the advice is a bit off and 'below' what we're trying to accomplish here. Also, the plugs, any will work just fine, just depends on how often you want to service them...and I prefer copper, as it will melt MUCH sooner than Iridium will...possibly saving an engine).....

Also anything in the 11's will be fine at this power level.

Ok advice, but not really pertinent to the thread.

[Darius]

You should really separate the white IGN power wire to the coils from the ECCS black/red power. The IGN wire draws a LOT of current and the ECU sharing the power source is not ideal (i.e. noise). Have you touched the ECCS relay after running the car until it starts to misfire to see if it is hot?

I would simply rewire the IGN to its own switched relay power to get it off of the ECCS relay. There's two relays there and Nissan engineers probably had a good reason for separating the power distribution like that. At least this way you will know it is wired, switched, and fused properly.

[jspaeth]

You should really separate the white IGN power wire to the coils from the ECCS black/red power. The IGN wire draws a LOT of current and the ECU sharing the power source is not ideal (i.e. noise). Have you touched the ECCS relay after running the car until it starts to misfire to see if it is hot?

I would simply rewire the IGN to its own switched relay power to get it off of the ECCS relay. There's two relays there and Nissan engineers probably had a good reason for separating the power distribution like that. At least this way you will know it is wired, switched, and fused properly.


I completely agree with you and would like to do this.

Part of the problem, for me, would be to find exactly WHERE the coilpack +12V wire actually is spliced into the power coming off the ECCS.

If I could find that splice point, I would just unsplice it and then wire it to the Ignition Coil Relay....

However, I am afraid it is spliced in somewhere in the middle of the harness that I can't get to or find.....and I am not about to pull my whole harness....don't want to upset any connections...


The next option would be to cut the +12V wire and then rewire it to the Ignition Coil.....

But then I have a hot wire floating there.....would it be sufficient to tape this off?

I dunno...haha

[2fast4y0u]

cut that wire off, put in a wire nut and tape the shit out of it :) that should work great

[jspaeth]

FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK.


Just put in a KNOWN working CAS....and problem NOT SOLVED.

The car seems to start up a little smoother, and is not giving me the "no start problem" after the misfiring starts occurring..

However, the car still misses TERRIBLY around 4500 RPM.



I have tried TWO different CAS, TWO different IGNITOR CHIPS, and TWO different set so COILPACKS!!!!!

AHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


I can see fuel pressure, which is okay during the misfiring.

I can see alternator output, which is a steady 14.0......


Literally, the only thing left that seems like it could cause a complete misfire is that one of the signal wires from the CAS is not making good contact with the ECU pin?

....or that the ECU is somehow fucked up.....which will drive me crazy.....so much $$$


I would like to get the car to run on the stock ECU, but have been completely unable to do so, so far.....if I can do this, then I could see that the ECU is or is NOT the problem.


Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.

[mattsil80wis]

do you wanna borrow an ecu tuned for your set up?

text me/PM me

201 519 6994

[2fast4y0u]

whats your exact setup?

[jspaeth]

whats your exact setup?


Late Model S13 SR Blacktop
Nismo/Tomei 740 CC Injectors
Aeromotive FPR
OEM or Splitfire Coils
52 Trim GT2871R
264/264 Step 2 HKS Cams
Apexi 1.1 mm HG
Greddy RAS
Greddy Intake Mani

PowerFC D-Jetro (MAP sensor) for late-model Blacktop S13 SR




I am about 99.999999% sure that the engine is mechanically sound and that the issue is being caused by something electrical (ECU or a sensor), but obviously there is that 0.00001%.


It is NOT the tune....the tune worked fine for 9 months.

[2fast4y0u]

i have a enthalpy rom tune for basically the same setup..i have 850cc i will send u a pm

[jamanrr]

Late Model S13 SR Blacktop
Nismo/Tomei 740 CC Injectors
Aeromotive FPR
OEM or Splitfire Coils
52 Trim GT2871R
264/264 Step 2 HKS Cams
Apexi 1.1 mm HG
Greddy RAS
Greddy Intake Mani

PowerFC D-Jetro (MAP sensor) for late-model Blacktop S13 SR




I am about 99.999999% sure that the engine is mechanically sound and that the issue is being caused by something electrical (ECU or a sensor), but obviously there is that 0.00001%.


It is NOT the tune....the tune worked fine for 9 months.


Man you have been through so many different things it leaves only the tune or ecu. You should have an Apexi PowerExcel tuner in your area? Hell they have to be certified by Tag himself to be one so they know what they are doing.

[2fast4y0u]

(insert yelling by jaspeth about how its NOT the tune )
ready......go

[jspaeth]

(insert yelling by jaspeth about how its NOT the tune )
ready......go


Hahaha it's NOT the tune!

This tune has worked for 10 months with no problem, and the air temp corrections are nowhere near large enough for it to be related to the hot weather.

Thank you for playing, good luck next time haha.....

But seriously, it may be the ECU, and then I may just have to take a sledgehammer to my car

[xska]

Did you try initializing Power-fc and install maps back in?
Also,did you try setting timing to all 20 degree and check actual timing at 4500?(by just revving in neutral).
If it's cas signal related, you can see timing bouncing around.
And what happens after 4500? dose runs good at 7000? or 4500 is like limiter?
There was one case i had problem with valve spring floating and it just dose it at 6000 and not after.

[greenman100]

I've got a spare Enthalpy ECU set up for 740cc injectors and a z32 maf... :)

[jspaeth]

Did you try initializing Power-fc and install maps back in?
Also,did you try setting timing to all 20 degree and check actual timing at 4500?(by just revving in neutral).
If it's cas signal related, you can see timing bouncing around.
And what happens after 4500? dose runs good at 7000? or 4500 is like limiter?
There was one case i had problem with valve spring floating and it just dose it at 6000 and not after.


This happens at all RPMs above 4000 or so....like sometimes it barely makes it past 4000 eventually, but then does the same at higher RPM if it can even make it there.

I am like 99% sure it is not a valve spring...bc initially the problem was limited to 6000 RPM...


However, what you (and Steve Shadows) mentioned about setting timing to 20* across the board and free revving is a very good idea, and one that I am going to try this weekend.


Thanks for the idea.

[jspaeth]

I just spoke with Matt at R/T Tuning in Lansdale, PA about this issue.

It turns out that Apex'i CAN do diagnostic tests to see if the ECU is not working properly and also can "service" them

Matt said that they had a customer recently whose ECU was completely fried by a lightning strike....like completely fried.....Apex'i charged $150 to "fix" it.....my guess is that they probably just gave him a new one.....

Anyway, it is good to know that there appears to be a more affordable route other than just buying a BRAND NEW PFC....something that could cost $200 or less.....



Also, I told Matt that I could NOT get the car to start with the stock ECU setup....

He suggested that I should definitely REMOVE the 2 wires that are added for the PFC (IAT ground and sensor wire)......perhaps these are causing the stock ECU to shit itself, even though I unplugged the IAT sensor itself.




Does anyone else know the answer to that???:


If you have extra superfluous pins added to the harness for the stock ECU and let's say one of them is having constant 5V, could this cause the stock ECU not to work?

[2fast4y0u]

finally something that seem to be in your favor.

[RBMadess]

run HKS spark plugs and Splitfire coils...DONE

[2fast4y0u]

run HKS spark plugs and Splitfire coils...DONE

you obviosuly didnt read ANY of the thread :wtf:

[jspaeth]

Okay so this morning I woke up and decided to check the harness grounds. I printed out the ECU pinout and checked to see how much resistance there was between the chassis and each of the possible ground wires (2 ECU grounds, 3 injector grounds, 2 sensor grounds, 2 or 3 ignition grounds, etc etc).

So, first I unplugged the harness from the ECU, and checked a few, then I plugged it back in, and checked them all again by "back-probing" the pins in the blue plastic plug....

Anyway, all ground were exactly 0 Ohms.


So, I fire up the car, and go out for a drive.....well I drive the car for 45 minutes, and VOILA, PROBLEM GONE.....I revved the car out to redline at least 15 or so times with not a single hiccup at all.


Then I took it out tonight again for over an hour and again, not a single problem.


This is SO FUCKING WEIRD......I can't imagine that it was bad contact of an ECU pin, because I have unplugged the ECU from the harness at least 10 times in the past 2 months during this troubleshooting adventure.


Furthermore, when the problem started, I hadn't touched the ECU for a reallly long time.


Lastly, I should add that during the drives, the ECU was out in the open, not inside the kickplate.....


It seems obvious that this is either a bad connection somewhere, or still possibly the ECU.....maybe the ECU didn't get as hot today because I didn't have it covered by the plastic kickplate?



I am COMPLETELY befuddled on this one.........but also kinda happy that I was able to drive my car again (well, actually being able to rev over 4K) for the first time in like 5 weeks.


I wish I could know what the issue was so that I could feel like I resolved the issue and maybe help out others in the future....but for now, problem solved, but NOT sure why.....

[jamanrr]

Okay so this morning I woke up and decided to check the harness grounds. I printed out the ECU pinout and checked to see how much resistance there was between the chassis and each of the possible ground wires (2 ECU grounds, 3 injector grounds, 2 sensor grounds, 2 or 3 ignition grounds, etc etc).

So, first I unplugged the harness from the ECU, and checked a few, then I plugged it back in, and checked them all again by "back-probing" the pins in the blue plastic plug....

Anyway, all ground were exactly 0 Ohms.


So, I fire up the car, and go out for a drive.....well I drive the car for 45 minutes, and VOILA, PROBLEM GONE.....I revved the car out to redline at least 15 or so times with not a single hiccup at all.


Then I took it out tonight again for over an hour and again, not a single problem.


This is SO FUCKING WEIRD......I can't imagine that it was bad contact of an ECU pin, because I have unplugged the ECU from the harness at least 10 times in the past 2 months during this troubleshooting adventure.


Furthermore, when the problem started, I hadn't touched the ECU for a reallly long time.


Lastly, I should add that during the drives, the ECU was out in the open, not inside the kickplate.....


It seems obvious that this is either a bad connection somewhere, or still possibly the ECU.....maybe the ECU didn't get as hot today because I didn't have it covered by the plastic kickplate?



I am COMPLETELY befuddled on this one.........but also kinda happy that I was able to drive my car again (well, actually being able to rev over 4K) for the first time in like 5 weeks.


I wish I could know what the issue was so that I could feel like I resolved the issue and maybe help out others in the future....but for now, problem solved, but NOT sure why.....


are you connections soldered or crimped? You know I had a similar problem on a Honda I owned once. It would do the same thing. Sometimes the wiring strands will stray out like one wire and make contact with another wire in the loom. Grounding out and causing an on again off again problem. Remember however unlikely you think the repair that fixes the problem is -- it has to be the solution. Sounds like you are getting there.

[jspaeth]

are you connections soldered or crimped? You know I had a similar problem on a Honda I owned once. It would do the same thing. Sometimes the wiring strands will stray out like one wire and make contact with another wire in the loom. Grounding out and causing an on again off again problem. Remember however unlikely you think the repair that fixes the problem is -- it has to be the solution. Sounds like you are getting there.

I am not really sure....someone did the swap for me 4 years ago, and as far as I can tell, they did a really good job on the wiring....have had NO electrical issues like this for 4 years, and that is with ahving moved the ECU and wire harness around more than once.

I guess it's possible that a bad connection has been the issue, but everything I've experienced has seemed like a problem that got worst as the car was on for a longer period of time (i.e. heat related).

Ugh....who knows.

[2fast4y0u]

after all this time and research...WTF!

glad its working again though.

[handinpants]

from what i heard, gap the plugs with a smaller gap.....

[jspaeth]

from what i heard, gap the plugs with a smaller gap.....


This is not a spark plug gap issue, you should go back and read the thread if you are going to post.

[hsitko]

We fd owners are familiar with this issue. The solution that we use is the hks twin power. HKS Twin Power DLI Ignition System Harness SR20DET (http://www.rhdjapan.com/hks-twin-power-dli-ignition-system-harness-sr20det-12358?nflag=1)
http://www.rhdjapan.com/hks-twin-power-ignition-system-type-dli-12353?nflag=1

We get spark blow out at around 350whp. This is the solution to 550+. This is on the fd reliability mod list and most people modifying fd's run these as a standard. Probably translates to sr20's too. But the communities are VERY different, and these units are kinda pricey. AEM makes one too but i'm not confident in their ability to make quality electronics.

[mattsil80wis]

We fd owners are familiar with this issue. The solution that we use is the hks twin power. HKS Twin Power DLI Ignition System Harness SR20DET (http://www.rhdjapan.com/hks-twin-power-dli-ignition-system-harness-sr20det-12358?nflag=1)
HKS Twin Power Ignition System Type-DLI (http://www.rhdjapan.com/hks-twin-power-ignition-system-type-dli-12353?nflag=1)

We get spark blow out at around 350whp. This is the solution to 550+. This is on the fd reliability mod list and most people modifying fd's run these as a standard. Probably translates to sr20's too. But the communities are VERY different, and these units are kinda pricey. AEM makes one too but i'm not confident in their ability to make quality electronics.

i guess your another one that didnt read the thread because he bought a splitfire coipack system which is the same the the hks product


wow i cant believe no one reads?

maybe they are just trying to get their post counts up? foolish kids

anyway justin glad to hear that your car is running good...we will have to meet up and chill again

[2fast4y0u]

i guess your another one that didnt read the thread because he bought a splitfire coipack system which is the same the the hks product


wow i cant believe no one reads?

maybe they are just trying to get their post counts up? foolish kids

anyway justin glad to hear that your car is running good...we will have to meet up and chill again

makes ya wanna beat some one :cops:

[jspaeth]

i guess your another one that didnt read the thread because he bought a splitfire coipack system which is the same the the hks product


wow i cant believe no one reads?

maybe they are just trying to get their post counts up? foolish kids

anyway justin glad to hear that your car is running good...we will have to meet up and chill again

Hey Matt, thank you again for offering to help out with everything (ECU, coils, injectors, etc....)

I hope to come up and visit again....maybe within the next few weeks and after Cody is done training.

Anyway, did you pull the head yet to survey the damage?

[mattsil80wis]

Hey Matt, thank you again for offering to help out with everything (ECU, coils, injectors, etc....)

I hope to come up and visit again....maybe within the next few weeks and after Cody is done training.

Anyway, did you pull the head yet to survey the damage?

im in VA right now on vacation with my gf and her family, once i get back ill be installing my new motor mounts, 2 way diff, and pulling the head off the car....than ill wait til cody gets back to make sure everything is straight and slam it all together and get this beast back out on the road....i still need to get RUCA and some new front pads and i should be good to go

[blkmrkt]

wow i am having this same issues as well. Pretty much i drifted an event put my car on the trailer went home and unloaded it. Parked my car in the garage and went to Japan for 3 weeks. Came home and went to go redyno tune my car before irwindale. So the night before i was supposed to get the tuned, i went to go start my car for the first time since i had been back. The car would not start for the longest time, finally got it to start and it would not free rev over 4k. Changed the plugs(NGK iridium 7's) and fuel filter since im running race gas and that helped the car to start up right away and free rev to 8k. So i was assuming my car was legit and took it to intec racing for another tune. First run on the dyno and it starts cutting out, so we change out all the coil packs. That helped a little and made the car still cut out around 5-5500 but not as bad as before the new coils. So we try another new set of plugs and gap them to .022, check all the plugs again and made sure the ground on the coilpacks is good. We then tried the ignitor and still was cutting out. Although we did notice that as the car was turned off and new parts were being put on, the car would fire right up(cooled down) on the dyno and the first pull it would not cut out. But by the 3rd run or so on it would start cutting out again around 5-5500 still as the engine got warm. We call it a night and assume we'll figure it out the next day. So I was thinking why did the car run perfectly at the drift event and now it runs like shit? All it did was sit for 3 weeks while i was in japan. I decide that maybe the race gas went bad or something so we drain my fuel tank and put in 114 octane. Also we made way more beast grounds and made sure everything was sanded down paint wise for the grounds. First dyno pull with new gas and better grounds it doesnt cut, second run no cut either, 3rd run slight cut(not as bad as day before though), 4th run cuts, 5th run doesnt cut. So now it's really odd beacuse it does not seem so much of a heat issue anymore, lawrence the tuner dropped 1 degree of timing somewhere (not sure at what rpm) but by lowering the timing by 1 degree we lost almost 100hp. So right now i really don't know what the hells going on, i pulled my wiring harness and am going to go over all the ignition wires and grounds. Although i've never once had an issue with this harness. The only thing else for me to change is the crank angle sensor. Also during all these dyno pulls my ignitor chip was not grounded. Not sure if it's supposed to be grounded but i've never had issues with it not. I dont think it's fuel because i had a good AFR all the way through the pull 11.5 and when the car would cut out AFR would go rich. I have a s14 sr as well with a power fc d jetro.

[jspaeth]

In my case, it ended up being a ground pin going into the ECU that was making poor contact.....at least I THINK.

I did every possible thing and replace every possible source of the problem and nothing helped...


Then one day, I decided to check for continuity of the ground wires going into the ECU....by back-probing each one with a multimeter.

Well, pushing on the back of the pins must have pushed the loose one into a more secure position, because since that day, the problem has been completely resolved.

[blkmrkt]

yeah for sure my wiring harness is pretty rats nested so im going to go thru all the ground wires and ignitor wires tomorrow. I'll let you guys know how it goes, wish me luck! haha