ITB battle??

[Geezy]

KA24DE w/ITBs

V.S.

SR20DE/VE w/ITBs

(in an S13 or S14 chassis)

anyone care to "splain" the ups and downs?
i couldn't find too much information.

[project-D180]

not alot of people wanna run the ka n/a for what ever reason..i luv mine.itb is the next plan i have for it but for now im runnin xcessive intake mani with plenum

[project-D180]

people swear you cant break 200 with the ka n/a.i guess not wit jus header,cia,and catback.lol

[M11's]

people swear you cant break 200 with the ka n/a.i guess not wit jus header,cia,and catback.lol

you would never break 200 with just those mods maybe with a build head. ITB would help incredibly.

[murda-c]

I don't really know much but i'd guess that the sr20ve would be the best.

[Geezy]

there is one SR20DE that i found with ITBs.
Super Street featured it.
here is the link.

but you cant really get too much information from it.

1991 Nissan 240SX N/A - Import Cars featured - Super Street Magazine (http://www.superstreetonline.com/featuredvehicles/130_0510_1991_nissan_240sx_na_tuner_car/index.html)

[silcoupeguy987]

yeah thats Gary Narusawa's s13 was built back in the day

throw some 2000 r1 carbs on your motor open up the jets and enjoy the sound!!!!!

[TougeLabs]

Itb's will rob power low end and give you some power top end. Hence why you see them mostly on motorcycles and such. Also without a crazy ECU setup you will have constant tuning issues.

[R33E8]

You don't need anything crazy, just a map based ECU (like pretty much any standalone..).. I think it's possible to make over 200whp with a built N/A KA.. All you need is high compression(12-13:1), well designed exhaust headers, head work (cam's, valves, port and polish, etc..), race gas, and advance the timing like crazy...

But I still don't understand why people want N/A if they are looking to make power..

[Geezy]

yeah.
i imagine that ITBs of course dont make as much flat out power compared to boost.
im looking into this because i strive to be different.
although "difference" may cost more in the long run and cause more initial problems.
but im trying to do as much research and find the easiest way possible to create a project.

[Wake]

get the Tomei ITB's and their Reytec ECU and call it a day.

ITB's are not for big power, they are for throttle response and helping the power band on NA be more linear. Although they can be an important step to making big(er) NA power.
It also controls the flow, direction, and amount of turbulence of air going into the cylinders on the intake stroke of the engine.
Just a reminder that the more air that can be stuffed into cylinder, the more power you make (along with the accommodating fuel ratio).
yes thats all laymans terms

this might help with theory, yes its a honda site
Individual Throttle Bodies - Kinsler Reinvention - Honda Tuning Magazine (http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/htup_0905_individual_throttle_bodies_installation/index.html)

[Geezy]

im looking to run along the lines of an AE86 with a 4AGE with ITBs.

[Wake]

not sure how you plan on comparing KA SR to 4AG

what are the relevant features you would be looking for?

I mean your saying you would like to be competitive against one?

[NINJASPY]

different and easy do not mix.

ae86 4age with itbs= thats called the 20valve motor.

[project-D180]

it all comes down to what u wana do and how far your willing to go..i have a ka,built/balanced bottom end wit 11.0.1 c/r on my n/a set up with mild head work,no cams or spring kit yet(will have by the time i get out of school) wit a tuned ecu from efi specialist n im luvin it so far bro.waay more responce n power difference from jump...i dont see y more people wont build n/a set on ka's,with agood turbo set up pushin more than 300hp your gonna spend a good amount of money ..you'll spend not even as much on a nice n/a build with forged internals

[Geezy]

well, in comparison to the 4AGE...
i would like to have all the capabilities it has while maintaining a naturally aspirated KA or SR.
i mean, i've seen it done, so im not far off.
im just trying to gain more information from the experienced rather than me having to read every thread and goggle everything.

[Wake]

I understand where your coming from on that point but reading and reasearching for yourself is always going to net you the best results.
By doin your own research you dont get the biased opinions of hundreds of dumbasse on a forum. Yes you might get some of the info you are looking for but you will never get just straight facts, someone will always be adding their two cents and what not.
That said.......
figure out these things first.
1) Power (whats your goal?)
2) Budget
3) And fabrication, do you have the skills and tools to reach your goal or you going to have to pay someone for their time?

once you figure those general things out youll have a better idea of what it will take to reach your goal. You just have to think responsibly and dont try and do huge things all at once, go step by step and make sure everything is done right the first time.

other than that its not hard at all to build a KA/NA SR to compete with a 4AG, just because your starting with bigger displacement.
For a KA try to reduce the rotational mass causing parasitic drag.
For a SR try doing head work and changing pistons do bump up compression.

also go look at these. They will give you more Ideas than you will ever be able to use.
Project Low-Buck SR20DE - Garage Tech - Turbo Magazine (http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0806_turp_project_low_buck_sr20de/index.html)
Nissan 240SX KA24DE Buildup - Turbo Magazine (http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/turp_0808_nissan_240sx_ka24de_buildup/index.html)

[project-D180]

good points..ka cranks if stock rebalance them it will take a good amount of wieght off or go a lil further n knife edge it n polish it..if you have the money bc makes a stock displacement fully countered crank(billet) for i believe 1700(its cheaper if u get a group buy though.ka head flow real well but u can always improve

[Geezy]

my power goal is at least a good reliable 250whp NA.
im not trying to build everything off the bat.
obviously thats financially impossible for me.
but can be done over time.
but still my budget is not unlimited.

so streetable power that can be abused when i ask it too.

[sh1tsweak]

my power goal is at least a good reliable 250whp NA.
im not trying to build everything off the bat.
obviously thats financially impossible for me.
but can be done over time.
but still my budget is not unlimited.

so streetable power that can be abused when i ask it too.
a VQ...yes...any nissan 4 cyl.....not so much

[Geezy]

lol.
VQ in my S13... syke.
thanks though.

[fuk240sx]

my power goal is at least a good reliable 250whp NA.
im not trying to build everything off the bat.
obviously thats financially impossible for me.
but can be done over time.
but still my budget is not unlimited.

so streetable power that can be abused when i ask it too.


LOL, be prepared to spend alot of money and still not reaching that goal, look up Greasers Itb Ka project, he is making around 235whp or so with his KA Itb setup but there is alot of R&d in that project and that motor has been pretty much redone from bottom to top, the head has been fully ported and polished and hes running a standalone, also that setup is nowhere near streetable.....your gonna spend upward of $3500 for 230WHP?? how about get a T3 slap it on and make that much power, spending half the money on a setup with more potential for power....either way its your choice, but ITB's on a KA are just hyped up, trust me I've been down that route, they sound great and you get great response but in the end its just not enough power. oh yeah and don't forget the crazy lopey cams, Itb is not a great idea for a DD

[Geezy]

hmm...
yeah.
ive been doing a little more reading here and there, and most of it leads to rebuilds which lead to $$$$$$$.
yeah...
starting to get less motivating. =[
lol

[fuk240sx]

lol...trust me man, i went through the same thing, its not really worth it.

[Wake]

LOL
honestly a VQ is a really good idea.

[SuperiorS14]

Do a NA VQ!!! cosworth longblock with ITB's and a direct port! i dont see how you could go wrong there! if i had the money id do it.

[Wake]

I think you would be surprised what a stock VQ is like in a lightened S13, talk about ready for abuse when you want it!

[PoorMans180SX]

An SR with a VE head is probably going to be better in the long run if you really really want a NA four cylinder in your car.

It might not make the most power straight out of the box, but the potential is higher than a KA. Yes it will require a little work, but heck, it'll be awesome when you're done.

I know of many built SRVE's that put down 250+whp. In fact there is an SR23VE that puts down 272whp. You're not going to get near that with a KA. It also revs to 9000+rpm. Which is awesome. Plus you get cool VTAK sounds!

Also, you don't have to deal with lame, lumpy cams (you have the low-end cam with a VE).

To me, it's the all-around NA four cylinder package. If that's the route you really want to go.

[Yellow4g63]

An SR with a VE head is probably going to be better in the long run if you really really want a NA four cylinder in your car.

It might not make the most power straight out of the box, but the potential is higher than a KA. Yes it will require a little work, but heck, it'll be awesome when you're done.

I know of many built SRVE's that put down 250+whp. In fact there is an SR23VE that puts down 272whp. You're not going to get near that with a KA. It also revs to 9000+rpm. Which is awesome. Plus you get cool VTAK sounds!

Also, you don't have to deal with lame, lumpy cams (you have the low-end cam with a VE).

To me, it's the all-around NA four cylinder package. If that's the route you really want to go.

250+WHP VE's are not run of the mill. Link please I'd like to check this out.

[project-D180]

Troy Ermish Racing (http://www.ermish-racing.com/510/bluebird.html) make ka motors that they run in datsons theat make over 200 wit 10.25.1 cr,370 inj,cams,ported head n a flashed ecu

[project-D180]

with carbs

[PoorMans180SX]

250+WHP VE's are not run of the mill. Link please I'd like to check this out.

EDIT: Never mind that one.

The VE Dyno Post - SR20 Forum (http://www.sr20forum.com/sr20ve-sr16ve/184824-ve-dyno-post.html)

I'll post more later.

[Yellow4g63]

Pulsar n15 sr20ve 242ps - SR20 Forum (http://www.sr20forum.com/sr20ve-sr16ve/257015-pulsar-n15-sr20ve-242ps.html)

The VE Dyno Post - SR20 Forum (http://www.sr20forum.com/sr20ve-sr16ve/184824-ve-dyno-post.html)

I'll post more later.

Don't get me started with that guy in the 242ps one. I posted in his thread too. The highest known hp to the wheel is something like 268whp from a 2.2 90mm bore VE with custom cams and exhaust manifold. 200Whp is getting a little more common now.

http://vid196.photobucket.com/albums/aa224/turbothriller/th_Convetion022.jpg?videoplayer=offsite?videoplaye r=offsite (http://s196.photobucket.com/albums/aa224/turbothriller/?action=view&current=Convetion022.flv)
http://vid196.photobucket.com/albums/aa224/turbothriller/th_Convetion021.jpg?videoplayer=offsite?videoplaye r=offsite (http://s196.photobucket.com/albums/aa224/turbothriller/?action=view&current=Convetion021.flv)

[let5l1de]

Don't get me started with that guy in the 242ps one. I posted in his thread too. The highest known hp to the wheel is something like 268whp from a 2.2 90mm bore VE with custom cams and exhaust manifold. 200Whp is getting a little more common now.


Although the 2.2L SR is getting close to 2.4L KA size, the smaller -5mm stroke full counterweighted crank along with a -28.7274mm rod length of the SR still loves to rev... what valvetrain did they choose?

~m

[Yellow4g63]

Factory mechanical lifters with after market valve springs and prob retainers. Reving to 9k with big cams u don't need retainers just good valve springs, hell some of the NZ ve guys did it on stock springs.

[Yellow4g63]

I duno why I put lifters, lol There is a shaft that runs on both sides of the head that holds the rockers arms in place. they also feed oil to switch over to the bigger lobe. check out the head parts in this link. How to install Cams and Springs and/or Retainers in the VE - SR20 Community Forum - The Dash (http://www.sr20-forum.com/naturally-aspirated-all-motor/219-how-install-cams-springs-retainers-ve.html)

[PoorMans180SX]

Yeah, sorry about that, I didn't check that out too thoroughly.

Thanks for posting that though it helps people realize that 2.2VE's really do make lots of power. Way more than you're ever getting from a naturally aspirated KA.

[Mangudai]

Itb's will rob power low end and give you some power top end. Hence why you see them mostly on motorcycles and such. Also without a crazy ECU setup you will have constant tuning issues.


So I hear, but why? Temperature?

[R33E8]

So I hear, but why? Temperature?

I think any map based stand alone will do (i.e aem ems).. it doesn't have to be anything intense..

[let5l1de]

I duno why I put lifters, lol There is a shaft that runs on both sides of the head that holds the rockers arms in place. they also feed oil to switch over to the bigger lobe. check out the head parts in this link. How to install Cams and Springs and/or Retainers in the VE - SR20 Community Forum - The Dash (http://www.sr20-forum.com/naturally-aspirated-all-motor/219-how-install-cams-springs-retainers-ve.html)


lol yeah um understandable? haha anyways, after viewing the thread you linked to, I notice the assembled or re-installed valve spring, retainer and keepers on both assembly were not really installed right. :duh:

below stated by op:

(quote) It will push it down and set them perfect. If you don't succeed, you can always take out the dark piece, whack it to remove the keeper, and start over. When installed correctly it will look like this. (/quote)

--

Please do not be confused. The valve spring, retainer and keepers have only been installed properly on the 1st or left assembly. The 2nd or right assembly is either waiting for installation or the keepers are not seated in the correct groove on the valve stem.
http://glowsinc.com/ss/19.jpg


~mario

[NMs14.5kouki]

so on a itb sr20det would a map based stand alone or a maf based stand alone work better?? im curious to know, being that i will be using itb's and turbo.

[codyace]

I know this may be against the norm, but search for posts by 'greaser' over on FA...hes had some detailed KA (n/a) builds, and there is certainly some information to be learned from his results.

[project-D180]

greaser is tha f'in man wit the n/a ka's he the only one i seen so far that actually built a 200+ ka motor while every one else is thinkin a couple of bolt on's and they should magicly have 200 hp with no high comp build n a tune