SR20DET- Black Smoke, super rich, horrible idle and major sputtering...

[Five_5Zigen_4]

K...before I get flamed for this, because I KNOW its been talked about a million times, I have used the search function, I have used google, I have used other forums.

On to the problem.

I just got done swapping in my s13 sr. The setup is as follows: Red top running 550cc Deatchwerkz injectors, Z32 MAF, S15 turbo and tuned ECU, FMIC, 3" exhaust all the way back, walbro fuel pump, Apexi AVC-R (not hooked up to boost yet, only using for basic monitoring). Had issues with it when I first tried starting it up, and it ended up being an Ignitor chip (was getting power on one side, but not the other).

Now that it actually starts, it run VERY VERY rich. Bad enough to make your eyes burn, even with the garage door open. It also sputters at idle (sounds like a mis-fire), and puffs out black smoke. When you rev it, it sputters very badly, sometimes to the point where it just wants to die. But, if I barely give it gas, it will accelerate enough to be able to drive it...most times. When you give it any more than 1/8th to 1/4 throttle, it spits and sputters, back fires a bit, and doesn't want to go anywhere. And more black smoke. With no load on it, I can get it to rev, but it still sputters a bit.

Now, for what I've tried:

-Tried re-stabbing the cas/reset the base timing..still a no-go
-Disconnected the MAF, no change in how the engine idles/runs.
-Pulled out the spark plugs and they were black as hell (carbon black, not wet)..cleaned those off and put them back in. Still sputters/rich.
-Played with the TPS as well as disconnected it (did that during the timing procedure). Still a no-go.

Going to try to disconnect the AVC-R, just to be sure its not messing anything up with the signals. Also going to play with the CAS a bit just to make sure that is good (I spent about 45minutes making damn sure it was lined up properly). Also gonna double check my fuel rail to make sure its all good to go.

If you guys have any suggestions, I would love to entertain them. I really need this thing on the road, as its my DD lol (what a reliable DD, eh? haha)

Anyways, thanks in advance guys.

I appreciate any info you guys can get me

[MADE]

Did you check your couplers and piping?
Is the "tuned" ECU designed to run your setup?

[SoguRacing]

sounds like a potential bad maf. you unplugged it..it's supposed to die when you do that with the car on.

[Five_5Zigen_4]

Yeah, the ECU is tuned for that setup. See the rest of this reply for more info on possible vacuum related issues...

Sogu: I was very curious about that. From what I had remembered, I THOUGHT it was supposed to die. I might have to double and tripple check my wiring to the MAF, because I had to extend the wires, run the chassis ground etc. I'll give it a look-see.

Also, on a side note, I was trying to eliminate any possibilities of vac leaks. I have my pressure sender for my boost gauge T'd off the FPR vacuum line, so I was going to disconnect it and cap it off (the boost gauge isn't wired up yet). Well, as I was doing that, the line came off the throttle body, and I saw a noticeable difference in idle. Read: Better Idle. Still sputters a bit, but I'm wondering if my FPR could be bad as well...I also took a spare piece of vacuum hose and ran it directly from throttle body to FPR...as soon as it feels ANY vaccum at all, the idle immediately dips and runs rougher...

sounds like a potential bad maf. you unplugged it..it's supposed to die when you do that with the car on.

[steve shadows]

1 and this is a BIG NUMBER 1, Deatsh werks injectors, in my experience are garbage and are totally inconsistent in regards to a. what lag time they prefer to run, b. the size of the pintle holes in the tips of the injectors, c. the spray pattern consistency of the injector itself.

The way they enlarge the injectors is very rudimentary and I highly suggest you invent in NEW DENSO Injectors form Tomei, Nismo, SARD etc which are properly valved for and designed specifically to flow 550CCs of fuel

2. I would triple check your o-rings on the fuel rail for the injectors for your side feeds. make sure you get your new o-rings from the dealership and they are not already installed on the injectors for you, you should install them yourself and use some vaseline

550 cc injectors ARE NOT LARGE ENOUGH even if you were running a stock ECU and Stock MAF to FOUL spark plugs all by themselves...That's right...They are not large enough to foul plugs that fast.

There has to be some sort of fuel leak, i.e. you need Brand New O-Rings and make sure you use petroleum jelly on the o-rings before pushing the injectors into the rail this way the seal in tight and don't get pinched at all on the way into their slots.

I would pull the rail off place a long white sheet of paper under the injectors, remove your starter wire so the motor wont crank, and cycle the key on and off as iff you are trying to start the car. The Fuel Injectors and fuel pump should prime the rail and if your rail is leaking you will be alble to inspect each individual injector for this type of seepage around the o-ring at the tip of the inj where it protrudes from the rail

3. The MAF wiring could be a culprit as well or the wiring on the harness,make sure all of these are in good order. Doubel check your Coil Pack harness ground as well, near the black timing loop towards the back of the head.

[Five_5Zigen_4]

Hey man, thanks for that info! When I bought the setup, I purchased it from a friend who was actually doing the swap into an E30 M3, so he had the entire setup for sale. I figured they called them "DeathWerkz" for a reason...figures haha

I did have an issue with one of the injectors, because when he was selling it, he was originally parting it out, and tried to pull the injector off with pliars, and ended up breaking the injector and bending the top pin where the o-ring compresses in to. He had to send them back to DW to have them all flow tested together and then sent back. When I installed them on the rail, i did use the lubricant that they sent with them as well.

I'll try your leak test method and see what i get for leakage.

Thanks again for the info man!

[Five_5Zigen_4]

Well, I cant see any leaks after pulling the rail off and testing it as you mentioned.

One thing I DID notice is that the return line (the metal portion that you attach your return hose to) from the FPR is a bit crushed/bent. Would that cause enough back pressure to force out more fuel through the injectors, thus causing it to run rich? My brain is telling me yes, but I wanted to get an opinion from someone who has more experience with this. IMO, it would be like its acting as if you had cranked up the pressure on the FPR (due to back more back pressure because of the constricted return line).

If not the case, then I'm pretty much back to square one (minus the fact that I have crappy injectors...but thats been all along...)

Pics of the FPR:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/Stupeyfied/91%20240SX%20Hatch/_DSC6598.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/Stupeyfied/91%20240SX%20Hatch/_DSC6602.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/Stupeyfied/91%20240SX%20Hatch/_DSC6624.jpg

[steve shadows]

Well, I cant see any leaks after pulling the rail off and testing it as you mentioned.

One thing I DID notice is that the return line (the metal portion that you attach your return hose to) from the FPR is a bit crushed/bent. Would that cause enough back pressure to force out more fuel through the injectors, thus causing it to run rich? My brain is telling me yes, but I wanted to get an opinion from someone who has more experience with this. IMO, it would be like its acting as if you had cranked up the pressure on the FPR (due to back more back pressure because of the constricted return line).

If not the case, then I'm pretty much back to square one (minus the fact that I have crappy injectors...but thats been all along...)

Pics of the FPR:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/Stupeyfied/91%20240SX%20Hatch/_DSC6598.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/Stupeyfied/91%20240SX%20Hatch/_DSC6602.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/Stupeyfied/91%20240SX%20Hatch/_DSC6624.jpg

BINGO


get a pair of vice grips and open that kink back up, if you cant BUY A NEW FUEL RAIL

I think I have a used one for 40 bones if you need one

[Five_5Zigen_4]

Yeah, i think a few friends here have an extra one laying around. Gonna test it out with one of theirs, and see how it goes. I'll let ya know one way or the other though man. Thanks! I'll post back with some updates.

[Five_5Zigen_4]

Well, put on a Q45 FPR, and it helped out a bit with the idle, but it still smokes and has a some-what rough idle. I took it out for a drive, and it seemed to be running decent, but after about 15 minutes it started running progressively worse. Starting to think about the CTS now.

Also, I think my transmission is going out as well...It will grind intermittantly, sometimes while its in gear, mainly when I shift. It grinds, i have to let it out, and let the clutch out, then push the clutch back in and put it into gear. Also, when it grinds and I hit the clutch, I can hear what sounds like something spinning/rubbing. Then I let the clutch out without it being in gear, and it stops...its very strange...

[Five_5Zigen_4]

Here's a video so you guys can hear what I'm talking about...the car was actually running somewhat decent, but as time went on, it got worse.

If you listen closely, you can hear the sputter when I go to shift, as well as the crazy weird grinding noise when I'm putting it into gear. There is also another video that day that you can hear it a bit better...was right after I got it on the road and wanted to see how it was running, so I got into it a little bit. (Probably a bit more than I should have lol). Was going across an intersection and the tires broke loose halfway through. But you can hear it each time I shift...Its like I clutch, shift, grind, put in neutral, release clutch, press clutch, put in gear with no grinding, then release clutch...uggh.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/atenza_freak/th_MOV02222.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/atenza_freak/?action=view&current=MOV02222.flv)

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/atenza_freak/th_MOV02217.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/atenza_freak/?action=view&current=MOV02217.flv)

[Five_5Zigen_4]

So, did some more work to this thing...Found out my MAF was wired up wrong...but it still runs like crap.

Seems it will run okay for about 5-10 minutes or so, then it just progressively gets worse. I've also changed out the coolant temp sensor. I also did the "unplug the maf" test, and there was NO CHANGE in its idle, nor did it cut out at 3k...I'm curious as to if its the tune or something thats making it do that, because I thought that was what happened when your maf didn't work right. So it doesn't go into limp mode in that regard. Unless its under load or something...I tried it while in my garage and it revved up past 5k.

So, it still runs rich, it still starts sputtering/backfiring/bogging after I drive it for a little bit. When its cold, it runs pretty darn good. I took it out and it definately got with it...but then about 8 blocks down the road it started sputtering out again.

So, just a recap, I've done:

Re-wired MAF
Unplugged maf at idle/no load...no response
Changed CTS
Put on a different fuel pressure regulator (mine was bent and crushed)
Reset the timing on the car


The only reason I dont think its the maf, is because I checked voltages on the MAF and it was reading fine. The signal wire was sitting around .2 vdc or so without the motor running, and lightly blew on it and noted the change of around .1 to .15 volts or so. Also, the injectors are at about 90% duty cycle at idle, but when your driving it goes down to about 70-80 percent...

So, any other ideas guys?

[Nutter_SR20DET]

"Had issues with it when I first tried starting it up, and it ended up being an Ignitor chip (was getting power on one side, but not the other)."



Before changing the ignitor chip aka power transistor, would it at least start up? i got a blacktop type X, that starts really rough and is misfiring really bad, black smoke and really rich. im running stock except 255lph pump, FMIC, turbo manifold, cat-back (gutted cat) its got no power, not even enough to do more than 5mph.
would a vac/boost leak cause all of this or am i looking in the right direction on replacing the chip? srry for the noob Q.....

[Five_5Zigen_4]

No, it was completely dead. As I said it was getting the power on one side, but not the other, so I was getting no spark at all. Try the old propane torch idea to test for leaks. Thats one thing I plan on doing this weekend as well. Also, try unplugging your MAF and see how it runs. If it runs better, then its probably your MAF.

As far as my current situtation, it doesn't sputter near as much, but it still runs absolutely pig rich. Also, found out my gas tank has a ton of rust inside it, so I'm dropping it this weekend and just going to put in my fuel cell and inline fuel pump I had that I was going to use for my Z. My fuel pump seems to be working overtime, and I'm thinking thats the reason.

[silverdemon16]

we just started up my friend's kat and he had the same problems as you with the spuddering and hellaz rich. so we changed his maf back to stock and it started to work a little better but it was still having those same troubles, so we changed from his tuned ecu back to stock and it ran almost fine...so maybe it's ur tune

[hOngsterr]

damn, kinda sounds like my car but im stock ka T_T

still. i would like to know whats up.

[Five_5Zigen_4]

Yeah, I dont know what the deal is. Right now, it runs decent when she warms up...likes to sputter when cold. But its still running rich as all hell, and my gas mileage definately shows that. I went through about a half a tank today, and only drove about 50 or so miles...this is getting expensive quick, and my whole rearend is turning black :(
But when she runs good, she runs good!

Experiencing more issues though...I have a tie rod end that has a torn up bushing, so now my shit clunks up front, so gonna have to fix that. Oh well, I'm just happy its driveable...just hoping I can figure out this rich issue. For some reason the sputtering thing is hit or miss. The other day it was sputtering pretty bad again, but then it went away. *shrug*

Damn Nissans lol

[RacerX1]

. I went through about a half a tank today, and only drove about 50 or so miles...this is getting expensive quick, and my whole rearend is turning black :(


Im dealing with the same thing, its a PITA when gas is $3.35 for premium, maybe your tune isnt reading the MAF properly-check your wiring? My MAF is getting power but when I unplug it she doesnt stop under load, not sure if you tried this but replace your coolant temp sesnor-that could be the problem.

OR get an aftermarket FPR and check the pressure.

[HAWAII]

I am having the same issue, but I believe we narrowed it down to a bad MAF, When we installed my friends MAF, car runs great, but with my MAF, CRAP!

This is my second MAF, still looking for the right one.

Try switching MAF with a friend that has a car that is running good, see if his MAF does the same with your setup and see if your MAF runs like crap on his setup.

[Om1kron]

did you pull your ecu codes?

sounds like knock sensor is retarding your shit to me.

open downpipe, idle rough, black smoke, misfiring until 4500 rpm then backfire.
Lets take it for a spin 2009-05-15 on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/4672699)

pulled ecu codes.
Simone Video Blog - Throwing Codes on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/4780512)

ecu diagnostic of the maf sensor.
Simone Video Blog - Performing an ECU Diagnostic on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/4795047)

jumping the knock sensor to eleminate the possibility it's making the car run like this.
Simone Video Blog : Knock Sensor Magic on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/5194327)

what do you know... knock sensor went bad somehow. that ticking noise you hear when it's decelerating was the flywheel, old bolts stretched and backed out and has since been fixed.

[Five_5Zigen_4]

Hey, Om1kron, thanks for the heads up. I was actually thinking about that the other day, with the possibility of the knock sensor. I'll have to check those videos out when I get home from work...


I tried pulling codes the other day, but the computer won't go into diagnostic mode...I think the turn screw is stripped out or broken, because it goes to where its supposed to stop, but then keeps going...so I'm wondering if my ECU may be messed up as well...I'll do some looking and get back do you guys!

Thanks again for all the help, guys!

[shinhed]

I've the same problems as you. Ever find a solution?

[Sileighty_85]

did you check the coolant temp sensor for the ECU?

[SleepR 240sx]

What do you mean by "tuned ECU"? Are you sure it's right for your setup? If it is an enthalpy or something similar where you send it off and it gets tuned based on the setup information you give them, the tune is just a fucking guess. It might be a damn good guess but still there is no substitute for proper tuning. I would bet your ECU is the issue, though knock sensor could easily be it too.

[steve shadows]

exactly

I would like to see more info on your ecu

also- try swapping out the MAF already! - if you're using OEM then you can use any KA24e maf in it's place you will just need differnet maf plug wired in

[reflexdb]

If there's no change in how the engine runs when the MAF is unplugged, than your MAF is not working!

Check the wiring again, check the output at idle, check the output according the the FSM, and if you find a problem, swap out the bad MAF sensor.

[lazysk8er2]

i have the same problem im working on it. when i find out ill repost.

who did your tune?

[Powertothe240]

I know this is an old post, but did anyone here ever figure out this problem? I'm having similar issues now, and I think it may be the ecu, but would like to hear from someone that may have solved this problem with their car. Thanks