Removed both guides and still rattles

[SidewaysNJ]

I've searched thru several threads but did not find an exact answer.

History:
When the car would start up when sitting over night you would hear the timing chain rattle pretty bad and then get much quiter.

Sooo..i opened up valve cover, i noticed it has been opened before because there was silicone in places where it should not be, mostly around the bolts. I was going to remove the upper chain guide but to my surprise it was already missing. It was actually broken off. i don't know if the previous owner took the broken piece out or just broke it off or what. But i did not find it laying around. I removed the sprocket cover and removed the other guide. I inspected both chain tensioners. I lower one felt fine, the top one was pretty stuck. So i oiled it up and kept pushing it in and out several times. It still seemed pretty weak to me so i removed it completely. When i removed it, it moved with ease. I can easly push it in and it would spring out. It did not take alot of force to push it in. I don't know if that is normal or not. So i put everything back together and started up the car, the noise/rattling was even worse and did not go away after idling a minute. i did not want to cause any damage so i shut the car off.

To summerize everything:
-Motor should have about 140k
-i removed both chain guides.
-I checked both tensioners, the upper one was gunked up, i cleaned it up and it moves with little effort. Should it be hard to push on the tensioner? Like should the spring be stiff or should i be able to push on it easily with 1-2hands?
-I did notice the chain must have been hitting the valve cover since there are 2 shiney spots where the chain is located. (this was before the lower guide was removed)
-The valve cover is bolted down to torque specs. the 2 front bolts can't be torqued completely, looks like the thread is stripped but it still grabs. the rest of the bolts are all good. the actual valve cover is not making the rattle

Can any of the experts chime in.......

What i also wanted to know...the tensioner operates with oil pressure....
1-Is there any bleeding/priming procedure?
2-Should the tensioner be hard to push in or should it move easily?
3-The chain has hit the valve cover before the 2nd guide was removed, why is making more noise now?
4-Should there be slack in the chain or does it tighten up as the motor runs?
5-Any other advice or suggestions

Thanks guys

[SoSideways]

Your chains probably need to be replaced.

They do stretch out over time...

And while you're at it, get new tensioners... sound like they shit the bed.

[projectRDM]

If there's enough slack in the chain for it to hit the valve cover then it's stretched. It has to be replaced. I'm surprised it hasn't jump a tooth yet.

[SidewaysNJ]

projectRDM ... nothing to do with this post just want to say your the man. i always read your posts. whenever i search for somethin and come across one of your post i always read it.

What i don't understand is why would the rattle get worse with the 2nd guide removed? Was that guide tightening the slack in the chain? or is the tensioner shot, i was able to push on it with one hand. should the spring tension be stiffer?

[SoguRacing]

perhaps you have rod knock. similar situation happened to my engine.

[SidewaysNJ]

Help me understand...how does it go from chain rattle to rod knock? For instance if the chain skipped, timing would be off and valves would be slapping pistons? If that is the case it goes back to my original question......

"why would the rattle get worse with the 2nd guide removed? Was that guide tightening the slack in the chain? or is the tensioner shot, i was able to push on it with one hand. should the spring tension be stiffer?"

[aznpoopy]

replace the tensioner with new one. if problem persists, then... that really sucks.

[Erjay1]

I think you need a new chain.

In regards to the infamous VTC rattle, I have the same issue with my motor. A few days ago I plugged in my PFC to make sure it worked properly and to my surprise I could not duplicate the infamous rattle. I have no idea why. Now it may have been that my idle was a bit high and thats the reason why I could not hear it. After putting my stock ecu back in the rattle was present again. Once I fix a small wiring problem, I will hook up the PFC again and check specifically for the rattle.

[SidewaysNJ]

I typically don't halfass things but would it be ok to just replace the 2 upper chains?
I know the proper way to do a timing chain job would be to replace all the chains etc but can i get away with just doing the 2 upper chains or am i just going to cause more trouble that way?
I need to get this car on the road and the way i see it is i can just unbolt one of the cam sprockets, remove the old chains and install new ones and good to go.

[projectRDM]

Removing both guides has given the chain more room to move, the noise also may just be resonate sounds from the chain hitting aluminum versus steel, there's very different harmonics in both.
The upper chain is one piece, it's not two separate chains. If you're pinched for time you can just replace the chain and the upper tensioner, but I would inspect the idler sprocket and cam sprockets for abnormal wear too and replace as required. The only drawback here is if the tensioner was indeed worn it could be caused from low oil pressure, chain slack on the lower chain will break the lower guide and make a serious mess out of the bottom end. While it's still together rent/buy a proper oil pressure gauge and fitting and check at both cold idle, hot idle, and various engine speeds. If pressure is good then just do the upper parts.

[SidewaysNJ]

I opened up the motor again. It looks like the chain skipped.
Did i just cause damage to the motor???
I didn't drive the car, the highest i prob reved up was 2500rpm. The exhaust cam looks to be 3 o'clock while the intake cam is pointing more like 10 o'clock.
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo63/sidewaysnj/s13%20dohc%20timing%20chain/Timingchain053.jpg
http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo63/sidewaysnj/s13%20dohc%20timing%20chain/d507fdd4.jpg

[projectRDM]

I'm going off memory because it's been ages since I timed the cams, but that does look off a tooth. You should be fine though, one, even two teeth per cam aren't enough to introduce piston slap to the valves. Reset the cams and turn it by hand, listening for noise and feeling for resistance.