Religous Debate!!

[downshift_sideways]

Feel free to say whatever...
I love to hear different sides..
Please stay on topic..



This is what I believe.

So..we'll start from the beginning.
Past the "Big Bang Theory".

Lucifer didn't want to be "greater" than god.
Lucifer was gods favorite angel in the heavens. He didn't want to be bigger and better than god. He had too much pride. God created him
with power/wisdom/forge/fire. He was the chief of hierarchy in the heavens.

Lucifer refused to bow down to MAN (Adam and Eve) (he felt betrayed by god)

So god casted him out from the heavens.


If god told Adam and Eve that if they ate the forbidden fruit from the tree "you will surely die".

and if the Devil told Eve that if they ate the fruit it would not lead to death.

Now they ate the apple.
And what happened?

They didn't die right away, So neither god or the devil were right.
Technically they didn't die as god said.
Technically they did "live" as the devil said.

I see it as:
Man on earth is a battle between god and the devil over humanity.

but who do we choose from if they were both right?

I choose to live life as it comes by. I believe in what I see with my own eyes and not by what I hear.
Science...

[Altered_Image]

What was meant by "surely die" means that they would become fully human and would eventually die, whereas before the "ate the apple" (metaphorically speaking), they lived in a state of innocence on the earth in "the presence of God".

[jskateborders]

They did die. Where are they now? Dead.

[downshift_sideways]

Doesn't every human apparently die over time?
Doesn't ever man just "live" and eventually "die"

What abour Dinosaurs? The bible never mentioned them? They were here way before man? We have fossils to prove it.

[Matej]

If Adam and Eve were the first humans, does that make us all inbreds? Isn't inbreeding a sin?

[DrtyRat]

To "die" meant to be separated from God, and you are right about our battle on Earth. Man was given the gift of free choice. God didn't want us to choose Him because we had to, He wanted us to choose Him b/c we wanted to. Satan is constantly battling to keep us away from God, and nowadays he's succeeding.

[flclsteve]

these never end good so ill stay out of this one lol

[DrtyRat]

If Adam and Eve were the first humans, does that make us all inbreds? Isn't inbreeding a sin?
I've always wondered about this myself. Doesn't change my beliefs, but makes me think.

[DrtyRat]

these never end good so ill stay out of this one lol
They can go well, if people want to have serious discussions, but they rarely do.

[downshift_sideways]

Yea. Incest apparently had to happen.

Same goes with Noah's Ark.

[SHIFT_*grind*]

They did die. Where are they now? Dead.

Yep.

Ever heard of metaphors?

What abour Dinosaurs? The bible never mentioned them? They were here way before man? We have fossils to prove it.

It doesn't say the word "dinosaurs." It does say things like "beasts of the field," though.

[downshift_sideways]

Beast of the field? If the bible went directly into so much detail about a lot.

don't you think they would take into account Huge dinosaurs??

they also do mention "Dragons" however. that's not accountable for a dinosaur to me.

Usually a lot of Christians use the word "Faith" to "Believe"

[BustedS13]

god isn't real. it's just a crutch people use to deal with mortality. the end.

[downshift_sideways]

I opened this thread, because you closed your last one.

jerk! <3

[BustedS13]

I opened this thread, because you closed your last one.

jerk! <3

:angel::love::angel:

[downshift_sideways]

Why was the bible written by man?

Man has so many flaws?

[BustedS13]

Why was the bible written by man?

Man has so many flaws?

because god's hands are too big :(

[VROOOM]

god isn't real. it's just a crutch people use to deal with mortality. the end.

I feel religion is just early mans way of explaining the world around them. but thats just my belief, everyone is entitled to thiers.

[downshift_sideways]

Science can be proven realistically.

The bible are documented words made by man.

Why can't we see all the miracles and wonders that are mentioned in the bible?

[Matej]

I feel religion is just early mans way of explaining the world around them. but thats just my belief, everyone is entitled to thiers.
That was the point of spiritual beliefs and that's how religions started out I think, but big organized religion has mainly been used to control the masses, for about 2000 years the church has been one of the most powerful and influential institutions in the world.

[DrtyRat]

god isn't real. it's just a crutch people use to deal with mortality. the end.
People say God isn't real because they want to justify their immoral lifestyle. they don't want to deal with the fact that they will be held accountable.

[SHIFT_*grind*]

don't you think they would take into account Huge dinosaurs??

Not necessarily. I don't think a lack of detail on dinosaurs would make the Bible invalid.

Usually a lot of Christians use the word "Faith" to "Believe"

Keep in mind that the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, where the words and phrases often have no direct parallel to English. The words in the King James or more modern versions of the Bible sometimes won't match up exactly with the original text, because they simply can't.

[downshift_sideways]

Lucifer didn't want to be "greater" than god.
Lucifer was gods favorite angel in the heavens. He didn't want to be bigger and better than god. He had too much pride.

Lucifer refused to bow down to MAN (Adam and Eve)(he felt betrayed)

So god casted him out from the heavens.

I don't see Lucifer as an "enemy".

Edited OP

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

Religion doesn't matter. We all become part of the earth in the end anyways....even the smallest animals. Religion is a great way to build morals in children and a great way to live on the strait n' arrow but it's all fairy tale. If anyone really believes in magic apples, talking bushes, and lakes that split in half needs to get their heads examined.
Now, I believe in an afterlife, but not in a supreme being. If you don't believe in an afterlife, you need to watch Ghost Hunters....that show ROCKS!!!

[SHIFT_*grind*]

Lucifer didn't want to be "greater" than god.
Lucifer was gods favorite angel in the heavens. He didn't want to be bigger and better than god.

Not exactly.


Verse 12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Verse 13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Verse 14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

He wanted to be "equal with" God. Unless God is somehow......mistaken. ;)

[Matej]

I believe I can live like a good person without being pushed into it.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

Not exactly.



He wanted to be "equal with" God. Unless God is somehow......mistaken. ;)
So......is god an elitest?

[downshift_sideways]

Not exactly.



He wanted to be "equal with" God. Unless God is somehow......mistaken. ;)
Thank you for quoting me on something I knew. Hence my previous statement:snoop:

Just wondering if anyone had any insights on Dinosaurs?

[SHIFT_*grind*]

How do you figure this?

Lucifer refused to bow down to MAN (Adam and Eve)(he felt betrayed)

So god casted him out from the heavens.

My point was, he was cast out of heaven because he aspired to be equal with God.

[mystery_elmo]

If you guys really wanna find out if all this is true or not, just die!!!

Then all your fake beliefs will come to and end!!

Who knows maybe it might be real?! NOT

[DrtyRat]

If you guys really wanna find out if all this is true or not, just die!!!

Then all your fake beliefs will come to and end!!

Who knows maybe it might be real?! NOT

Feel free to say whatever...
I love to hear different sides..
Please stay on topic..




If you lack the intelligence to be in this thread, leave. If your too lazy to post something that contributes to this thread, leave.

[LongGrain]

Thank you for quoting me on something I knew. Hence my previous statement:snoop:

Just wondering if anyone had any insights on Dinosaurs?

i watched a video of some reverend or something giving a speech. he said that dinosaurs being 65 million years old was impossible because the earth wasnt that old, the dinosaurs apparently roamed the earth just 2000 years ago, but they died in the flood.

[TheWolf]

Ya know. Most of these questions were answered by the pope in a series of talks from 1979 to 84. Pope jp2 basically gave a 1 hour lesson once a week for 5 years. Explained alot of this. It's called the Theology of the Body. Christopher West does a great guide for this book. I recommend it because the pope is long winded. If you want to understand why god created us, why we are the way we are, why we are to toil by the sweat of our brow, why we were cast out after eating from the tree of knowledge, why sex before marriage is bad, why priests are celibate, how your marriage reflects gods love and how you are a reflection of that, how you are a watchman over others. The book is the size of a phone book but is worth it.

To dumb it down a little.
Religion is just like 240's. You can be completely ignorant of the workings of your car. Never visit a forum. Always take your car to the dealer for service and by the end of 10 years of owning that car you'd swear nissans were the most expensive, most prone to break cars and you'd never want to own one ever although you never did any maintenance on it and always paid the most to have any work done. Now as you learn the inner workings of the car, things get cheaper and easier to do. Not as much of a hassle. Once you come to know all aspects of your car. It's easy to diagnose a problem and fix it. Same thing with religion and your life. The more you get to know your relationship with god. The easier it is to maintain it. The more you learn, the easier it is to erase sin from your life. The more fullfilling your marriage is. But most people are stuck at "noob" status. They don't want to click the search button to find an answer; they'd rather gripe about how hard it is to learn or how hard it is to find answers. I mean compare nico to zilvia. "Wahh my car bogs and gets 5mpg whats wrong?" Although it's tougher when it's life's problems. "My marriage is nothing but arguments.. what's wrong?" What I'm getting at though is there are several questions asked here but no one has begun to search for the answers yet I'm sure this isn't the first time you had that question. I bet everyone here has spent more time working on their car that working on their faith. Try and spend some time to understand god. I encourage everyone to search.

[downshift_sideways]

^hahahahahha.

Nice translation bawahahah

[revat619]

here's the thing, NOBODY knows anything FOR SURE. I'm a Christian and i understand that everybody has their own beliefs. I'm not here to Bible thump. My point is, as much as you want to make fun, you really dont know the truth either. No one does. You wont know anything FOR SURE until you're dead. So what makes your choice to not believe in God so much "better" than someone else's choice to believe?

I think what it boils down to is that people dont like the idea of something/someone being sovereign over them. It really isnt that hard to believe, but whatever.

Oh and for the record, scientific theories about the earth and its origins are full of holes as well. Dont believe me, look it up.

[Altered_Image]

To "die" meant to be separated from God, and you are right about our battle on Earth. Man was given the gift of free choice. God didn't want us to choose Him because we had to, He wanted us to choose Him b/c we wanted to. Satan is constantly battling to keep us away from God, and nowadays he's succeeding.


Ding Ding Ding!!!!

[downshift_sideways]

^
His angels were also given free choice and free will, so they can experience real unconditional love.

[SHIFT_*grind*]

here's the thing, NOBODY knows anything FOR SURE.

EXACTLY. So many people forget this, Christian, Atheist or whatever.

[flclsteve]

What do u guys think of the whole bible code predicting 9/11 and other events?

[DrtyRat]

Ya know. Most of these questions were answered by the pope in a series of talks from 1979 to 84. Pope jp2 basically gave a 1 hour lesson once a week for 5 years. Explained alot of this. It's called the Theology of the Body. Christopher West does a great guide for this book. I recommend it because the pope is long winded. If you want to understand why god created us, why we are the way we are, why we are to toil by the sweat of our brow, why we were cast out after eating from the tree of knowledge, why sex before marriage is bad, why priests are celibate, how your marriage reflects gods love and how you are a reflection of that, how you are a watchman over others. The book is the size of a phone book but is worth it.

To dumb it down a little.
Religion is just like 240's. You can be completely ignorant of the workings of your car. Never visit a forum. Always take your car to the dealer for service and by the end of 10 years of owning that car you'd swear nissans were the most expensive, most prone to break cars and you'd never want to own one ever although you never did any maintenance on it and always paid the most to have any work done. Now as you learn the inner workings of the car, things get cheaper and easier to do. Not as much of a hassle. Once you come to know all aspects of your car. It's easy to diagnose a problem and fix it. Same thing with religion and your life. The more you get to know your relationship with god. The easier it is to maintain it. The more you learn, the easier it is to erase sin from your life. The more fullfilling your marriage is. But most people are stuck at "noob" status. They don't want to click the search button to find an answer; they'd rather gripe about how hard it is to learn or how hard it is to find answers. I mean compare nico to zilvia. "Wahh my car bogs and gets 5mpg whats wrong?" Although it's tougher when it's life's problems. "My marriage is nothing but arguments.. what's wrong?" What I'm getting at though is there are several questions asked here but no one has begun to search for the answers yet I'm sure this isn't the first time you had that question. I bet everyone here has spent more time working on their car that working on their faith. Try and spend some time to understand god. I encourage everyone to search.
Epic post^^^^^^
That may also be one of the best analogies that I've ever heard.

[jskateborders]

The bible doesnt really specify animals by species in the book of genisis. also It states than man was created last...

[aa87]

And man rib made woman.

[aznpoopy]

i believe in god - the christian god. i was not raised that way. dad is buddhist / mom is nothing. i was not converted although more than a few friends tried. i just came to believe in it for alot of reasons.

-prayers have always been answered
-when shit gets rough i always pray, even when i didn't believe
-i believe shit happens for a reason
-i feel awesome if i praise god
-i love to study history (esp roman history) and the chain of events leading from past to present is absolutely sick

simply put.
the story of all of us from past to present is too awesome / tragic / profound for it all to be just random bullshit.

and maybe i'm a bit schizo. i still believe in evolution. i don't believe the earth is 5000 years old. i don't know if the OT is literal history. i do believe in some parts of biblical prophecy. but it just leaves it open in the air. it doesn't make me question my faith.

if you're focusing on the small shit like whether the bible has dinosaurs in it or whatever, you're really missing the point. there's alot of weird/strange/bizarre things in the bible. lots of crazy shit leading to the development of modern christianity. even more so if you get into apocryphal books (excluded books). like the true story of the flood (nephilim and all that). book of enoch. jubilees. council of nicaea and canonization. etc. awesome stuff to read about, but at the end of the day it's something you gotta find in yourself. if you have to prove it to yourself with hard evidence then you've already missed the boat.

[jskateborders]

Ya know. Most of these questions were answered by the pope in a series of talks from 1979 to 84. Pope jp2 basically gave a 1 hour lesson once a week for 5 years. Explained alot of this. It's called the Theology of the Body. Christopher West does a great guide for this book. I recommend it because the pope is long winded. If you want to understand why god created us, why we are the way we are, why we are to toil by the sweat of our brow, why we were cast out after eating from the tree of knowledge, why sex before marriage is bad, why priests are celibate, how your marriage reflects gods love and how you are a reflection of that, how you are a watchman over others. The book is the size of a phone book but is worth it.

To dumb it down a little.
Religion is just like 240's. You can be completely ignorant of the workings of your car. Never visit a forum. Always take your car to the dealer for service and by the end of 10 years of owning that car you'd swear nissans were the most expensive, most prone to break cars and you'd never want to own one ever although you never did any maintenance on it and always paid the most to have any work done. Now as you learn the inner workings of the car, things get cheaper and easier to do. Not as much of a hassle. Once you come to know all aspects of your car. It's easy to diagnose a problem and fix it. Same thing with religion and your life. The more you get to know your relationship with god. The easier it is to maintain it. The more you learn, the easier it is to erase sin from your life. The more fullfilling your marriage is. But most people are stuck at "noob" status. They don't want to click the search button to find an answer; they'd rather gripe about how hard it is to learn or how hard it is to find answers. I mean compare nico to zilvia. "Wahh my car bogs and gets 5mpg whats wrong?" Although it's tougher when it's life's problems. "My marriage is nothing but arguments.. what's wrong?" What I'm getting at though is there are several questions asked here but no one has begun to search for the answers yet I'm sure this isn't the first time you had that question. I bet everyone here has spent more time working on their car that working on their faith. Try and spend some time to understand god. I encourage everyone to search.
I agree with this completely exept for "You can be completely ignorant of the workings of your car. Never visit a forum. Always take your car to the dealer for service and by the end of 10 years of owning that car you'd swear nissans were the most expensive, most prone to break cars and you'd never want to own one ever although you never did any maintenance on it and always paid the most to have any work done. Now as you learn the inner workings of the car, things get cheaper and easier to do. Not as much of a hassle. Once you come to know all aspects of your car."
I have never taken my car to a shop and done all the work myself, and I think that 240's are very prone to breaking and get very expensive. It creates a very harsh relationship between 240 and I. I think that if I had the money to throw her in the shop everytime something went wrong, our marriage would benifit. In some cases ignorance is bliss, in others, it just makes you seem ignant.

[Phlip]

Ya know. Most of these questions were answered by the pope in a series of talks from 1979 to 84. Pope jp2 basically gave a 1 hour lesson once a week for 5 years. Explained alot of this. It's called the Theology of the Body. Christopher West does a great guide for this book. I recommend it because the pope is long winded. If you want to understand why god created us, why we are the way we are, why we are to toil by the sweat of our brow, why we were cast out after eating from the tree of knowledge, why sex before marriage is bad, why priests are celibate, how your marriage reflects gods love and how you are a reflection of that, how you are a watchman over others. The book is the size of a phone book but is worth it.

To dumb it down a little.
Religion is just like 240's. You can be completely ignorant of the workings of your car. Never visit a forum. Always take your car to the dealer for service and by the end of 10 years of owning that car you'd swear nissans were the most expensive, most prone to break cars and you'd never want to own one ever although you never did any maintenance on it and always paid the most to have any work done. Now as you learn the inner workings of the car, things get cheaper and easier to do. Not as much of a hassle. Once you come to know all aspects of your car. It's easy to diagnose a problem and fix it. Same thing with religion and your life. The more you get to know your relationship with god. The easier it is to maintain it. The more you learn, the easier it is to erase sin from your life. The more fullfilling your marriage is. But most people are stuck at "noob" status. They don't want to click the search button to find an answer; they'd rather gripe about how hard it is to learn or how hard it is to find answers. I mean compare nico to zilvia. "Wahh my car bogs and gets 5mpg whats wrong?" Although it's tougher when it's life's problems. "My marriage is nothing but arguments.. what's wrong?" What I'm getting at though is there are several questions asked here but no one has begun to search for the answers yet I'm sure this isn't the first time you had that question. I bet everyone here has spent more time working on their car that working on their faith. Try and spend some time to understand god. I encourage everyone to search.
I don't think I have missed +rep more than RIGHT now to this point.

[ESmorz]

People say God isn't real because they want to justify their immoral lifestyle. they don't want to deal with the fact that they will be held accountable.


I thought this thread was funny until here.

That's just a false statement. What about those little bum fuck tribes in Brazil. They don't know about God. They just keep on living. There is a reason every culture has their OWN god. Civilizations are derived by man and the men who have the power bring order about by instituting religion however they see fit.

:fruit:

[DrtyRat]

I thought this thread was funny until here.

That's just a false statement. What about those little bum fuck tribes in Brazil. They don't know about God. They just keep on living.

There is a reason every culture has their OWN god. Civilizations are derived by man and the men who have the power bring order about by instituting religion however they see fit.

:fruit:

I'm sorry that my post didn't humor you. It wasn't intended to be funny. I can't count the times that I've heard/seen people use this mindset to do whatever they wanted. I'm not even referring to murder or the like. I'm talking about those who continue to justify their sinful lives by saying there is no God, or they use the excuse of religion(made by man) and it inconsistencies to do what they want, when they want. Look, I'm not even close to being innocent of these type of things in my life, sometimes I still suffer from them, the difference is that I've come to grips w/the fact that its wrong, and I'm trying everyday to be less like that.

[Altered_Image]

http://www.churchsigngenerator.com/sign04.pl?text1=GOVERNER+PALIN&text2=I%27D+HIT+THAT&text3=AND+HER+DAUGHTER&tfont=1&htext1=Zilvia&htext2=Church+of+Drift&hfont1=12&hfont2=12&emblem=rel-church06&hcolor=842626&fcolor=EDDFDF&ocolor=270C4C&bcolor=EDDFDF&ecolor=842626

[DrtyRat]

http://www.churchsigngenerator.com/sign04.pl?text1=GOVERNER+PALIN&text2=I%27D+HIT+THAT&text3=AND+HER+DAUGHTER&tfont=1&htext1=Zilvia&htext2=Church+of+Drift&hfont1=12&hfont2=12&emblem=rel-church06&hcolor=842626&fcolor=EDDFDF&ocolor=270C4C&bcolor=EDDFDF&ecolor=842626

Hahaha...you got busted trying to steal(which is a sin) in the religious thread!:keke::keke::keke::keke::keke::keke:

[aznpoopy]

its not everyone. its only the people who actually do believe in god but resent being judged or what not. usually these ppl are really hostile to the notion of god or the fact that you believe in god.

many people simply dont give any thought to religion or god and get along fine.

the argument that religion is a crutch for morality is weak for similar reasons. i know plenty of non-religious people who live relatively 'moral' lives. most atheists are no more or less moral than most christians. everyone's flawed in pretty similar ways. people don't need religion to constrain bad behavior. i never did. society and parenting takes care of most of that as it is.

[SHIFT_*grind*]

I'm talking about those who continue to justify their sinful lives by saying there is no God, or they use the excuse of religion(made by man) and it inconsistencies to do what they want, when they want.

That's true, a lot of people do use that as an excuse. However, I don't think everyone needs religion, or the sense of a higher power looking down on them to make sure they don't misbehave, to have a moral compass and be compelled to follow it. Religion and spirituality can help, certainly.

What I can't stand is that some people think that being part of a religious organization, or having a set of spiritual beliefs, automatically makes them a better person. Who think that it somehow makes them more correct in their ways, and fixes all their infirmities for them. It's not a magic wand, it's a path, a set of guidelines that you have to follow, and that takes work.

[Rick-95ZE]

I have studied MANY different religions and I'm always brought back to the same conclusion..

Human beings have a very creative imagination, are arrogant, and have a constant flare for dramatics...I also believe that we would be a mess without religion, LOL! more so than we currently are..

I often find myself saying "I hope I'm wrong" because If I'm not.. The idea that we have no purpose and ther is no "higher power" is kinda :-/

Although I have no CURRENT faith in any type of religion, I do believe in being a good person, and most people who know me personally are in disbelief when they hear my views on this topic..

I'm always in pursuit of the "purpose" of our existence and I'm open to any info.. I have many unanswered questions.

[DrtyRat]

its not everyone. its only the people who actually do believe in god but resent being judged or what not. usually these ppl are really hostile to the notion of god or the fact that you believe in god.

many people simply dont give any thought to religion or god and get along fine.

the argument that religion is a crutch for morality is weak for similar reasons. i know plenty of non-religious people who live relatively 'moral' lives. most atheists are no more or less moral than most christians. everyone's flawed in pretty similar ways. people don't need religion to constrain bad behavior. i never did. society and parenting takes care of most of that as it is.
I hope I didn't come across like I was trying to say that EVERYONEis like that. I know plenty of people who lead good lives, better than me, who aren't Christians. The problem arises when people assume that they are judged by God for their works, that living a good life, is just as good as being saved. This is not true. God help us all if we were only judged by our good works, because not one of us would go to Heaven.

[The ROMAN]

A lot of what is in the bible was taken from earlier stories and fables, such as the epic of Gilgamesh. If you want to be floored, read some ancient Sumerian works while thinking how it compares to the bible. And remember, most of what one thinks of as Christian doctrine was said by Paul years later, not Jesus.

Also you can find secret messages in any book if it is long enough.

Most academics really stopped believing in this stuff over 300 years ago. The modern understanding of the universe is one of a machine ruled by natural law, not teleology. Things like right and wrong, good and evil are subjective and man-made. They don't exist in nature. Sure, we can't know everything, the nature of God is something that cannot be known, but God and dogma are two different things. Philosophers discuss God to this day. But as for religion, if you look objectively at religious works as historical documents, rather than the word of God (as was done during the enlightenment), it's hard to see them as anything other than inventions of man in a time when he didn't understand things like the rising of the sun, thunderstorms, etc.

[revat619]

That's true, a lot of people do use that as an excuse. However, I don't think everyone needs religion, or the sense of a higher power looking down on them to make sure they don't misbehave, to have a moral compass and be compelled to follow it. Religion and spirituality do help, certainly.

True, but atleast in the case of Christianity, that isnt the point. Yes, you're supposed to live a certain way, but the point of Christianity isn't just for the sake of keeping you well behaved. Like you said, people don't need a higher power looking down on them to make them behave. That just comes with good parenting and good morals. Christianity has a whole deeper meaning and purpose. Unfortunately, its been so botched up by society and its politics that most people dont even know anymore. And now it has a very negative and elitist connotation. Christianity was NEVER meant to be this way.

Whats even more sad, is that the way its supposed to truly be is actually IN the Bible, but people have twisted its meaning soooo much over the years, its sickening.

[aznpoopy]

I hope I didn't come across like I was trying to say that EVERYONEis like that.

not at all

The problem arises when people assume that they are judged by God for their works, that living a good life, is just as good as being saved. This is not true. God help us all if we were only judged by our good works, because not one of us would go to Heaven.

word
:bigok:

What I can't stand is that some people think that being part of a religious organization, or having a set of spiritual beliefs, automatically makes them a better person.

wordx2
judgmental christians piss me off

And now it has a very negative and elitist connotation. Christianity was NEVER meant to be this way.

wordx3
just like the elitism of the priests of the 2nd temple

[ESmorz]

I'm sorry that my post didn't humor you. It wasn't intended to be funny. I can't count the times that I've heard/seen people use this mindset to do whatever they wanted. I'm not even referring to murder or the like. I'm talking about those who continue to justify their sinful lives by saying there is no God, or they use the excuse of religion(made by man) and it inconsistencies to do what they want, when they want. Look, I'm not even close to being innocent of these type of things in my life, sometimes I still suffer from them, the difference is that I've come to grips w/the fact that its wrong, and I'm trying everyday to be less like that.

Alright.

Basically, you can believe what you like. I don't care if you're Christian, Buddhist, Bum Fuck Brazilian tribe religion, Gay, Straight, Transgender. I really honestly don't care what you are doing with your life as long as you aren't hurting other people.

My main problem with all walks of religious people is how fucking close minded so many of them are. It's almost never a debate but they just sit there the whole time thinking they know the truth and there is no reason even talking to them. Although how is it every religion seems to know the truth? hmmm...

To say that just because I don't believe in a certain religion is justifying my "sinful" ways is something I take offense to. There is no possible way to KNOW that Christianity is the "right" religion. Yes I know there are personal testimonies that Jesus has touched their lives and they have a book to read, however I could just as easily say if I slap my balls on your forehead you wont have a headache anymore and have some friends write a book about me and in 2,000 years have the same vague validity.

Your argument can go both ways you say I defy religion to live as a sinner, but I could just as easily say you use religion as a crutch to find some sort of meaning in this life because it's the easy way out.

[Rick-95ZE]

"WHAT ARE HUMAN BEINGS (http://campus.houghton.edu/orgs/rel-phil/schultzweb/HUMAN_BEINGS.html)

*shrug*

[Rayne]

Here is a thought for anyone willing to think about it.

"Everything we see is not what it is now, but what is was."

[murda-c]

Only god could love you enough to send you to hell for eternity for a lifetime's worth of sinning.

[ESmorz]

Only god could love you enough to send you to hell for eternity for a lifetime's worth of sinning.

Timeout for adults.

[sillyvia13]

Ya know. Most of these questions were answered by the pope in a series of talks from 1979 to 84. Pope jp2 basically gave a 1 hour lesson once a week for 5 years. Explained alot of this. It's called the Theology of the Body. Christopher West does a great guide for this book. I recommend it because the pope is long winded. If you want to understand why god created us, why we are the way we are, why we are to toil by the sweat of our brow, why we were cast out after eating from the tree of knowledge, why sex before marriage is bad, why priests are celibate, how your marriage reflects gods love and how you are a reflection of that, how you are a watchman over others. The book is the size of a phone book but is worth it.

To dumb it down a little.
Religion is just like 240's. You can be completely ignorant of the workings of your car. Never visit a forum. Always take your car to the dealer for service and by the end of 10 years of owning that car you'd swear nissans were the most expensive, most prone to break cars and you'd never want to own one ever although you never did any maintenance on it and always paid the most to have any work done. Now as you learn the inner workings of the car, things get cheaper and easier to do. Not as much of a hassle. Once you come to know all aspects of your car. It's easy to diagnose a problem and fix it. Same thing with religion and your life. The more you get to know your relationship with god. The easier it is to maintain it. The more you learn, the easier it is to erase sin from your life. The more fullfilling your marriage is. But most people are stuck at "noob" status. They don't want to click the search button to find an answer; they'd rather gripe about how hard it is to learn or how hard it is to find answers. I mean compare nico to zilvia. "Wahh my car bogs and gets 5mpg whats wrong?" Although it's tougher when it's life's problems. "My marriage is nothing but arguments.. what's wrong?" What I'm getting at though is there are several questions asked here but no one has begun to search for the answers yet I'm sure this isn't the first time you had that question. I bet everyone here has spent more time working on their car that working on their faith. Try and spend some time to understand god. I encourage everyone to search.

WOW !! YOUR THE MAN! lol

Yea. Incest apparently had to happen.

Same goes with Noah's Ark.
check this out... noah's ark bit...
YouTube - Joe Rogan vs Noah's Ark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMnThZgN-PM)

[Addicted2Kouki]

Yea. Incest apparently had to happen.

Same goes with Noah's Ark.

Oh shit.
All you guys are my cousins...err...brothers...err......something.

[shishcabobers]

I'm just curious how many of you guys have actually took the time to learn your own religion or other religions? Instead of actually just reading or hearing certain things. I mean I bet you there are some of you out there that have a whack perception of a certain religion, but if you actually studied the religion maybe it would actually be a totally different thing from what you believed.

For example, some people think that Catholics worship Mary and Statues, when it clearly states that in the 10 commandments thou shalt not have other Gods before me. But in actual reality Catholics are only venerating Mary and the Saints asking them for help, to remember them and use them as a role model. I mean look at a picture of your family or a loved one, now would you say that you are worshiping it? No you are only look at it for remembrance of the person.

[ESmorz]

I'm just curious how many of you guys have actually took the time to learn your own religion or other religions?

Christian schools. :barf:

Then lots of sleepless nights just reading about other religions.

:ugh:

[SexPanda]

Well, we all have souls made up of things called thetans. These thetans have existed for trillions of years. The once belonged to aliens, but the evil Xenu, leader of the Galactic Confederacy brought the aliens to Earth on spacecraft that resembled Douglas DC8 aircraft. The aliens were stacked around volcanos, and blown up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls now live inside us and cause all of our bad feelings, like anger, jealousy, sadness, etc.

[SW20Racer]

Doesn't every human apparently die over time?
Doesn't ever man just "live" and eventually "die"

What abour Dinosaurs? The bible never mentioned them? They were here way before man? We have fossils to prove it.

there is a riverbed with fossilized footprints of man and dinosaur interweaving.
the bible also makes mention of "terrible lizards"

if anything, i'd like to believe if there is a supreme being, he had less to do with it than going "here is this, there is that" maybe he just got the ball rolling ya know, and things have ended up here.

SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE MUST REMEMBER IS THAT MAN WROTE THE BIBLE. WHY DO YOU THINK ITS CALLED "THE KING JAMES VERSION"? BECAUSE KING JAMES TOOK OUT THE STUFF HE DIDNT LIKE AND PUT IN THE THINGS HE DID. EVEN THE ORIGINALS HAVE MASSIVE VARIATIONS IN STORIES WRITTEN BY TWO PEOPLE AT THE SAME EVENT.

googe "marijuana in the bible" and see whats up. green is supposed to be a holy sacrament.

google "the book of thomas"

look for the book called "when science fails" and see the most religion distorted publication to come out in recent history.

the ideals of religion are nice. what isnnt so nice is what the majority of religions turn their followers into.

"more men have been killed in the name of God than any other reason" -George Carlin

[SR2Zero]

Science can be proven realistically.

The bible are documented words made by man.

Why can't we see all the miracles and wonders that are mentioned in the bible?

I honestly don't want to go into too much of a religious debate, partly because most of everything mentioned in this thread is unexplainable. Can we prove there was a big bang? Not really. God might have created the earth with a "bang"

I just find it too hard to believe that we are perfectly formed by a coencidence. That particles just happened to form everything, perfectly.

Anyways, beyond questions of science vs creation by a greater being, where did everything come from that either banged together to create it all, or where did God come from?

Purely unexplainable. I don't like to think about it. I don't attend church every Sunday, but I fail to believe in pure luck of the draw that everything we know just happend to spawn together the way it is.

Cern is trying to create this "god particle" , and some think potentially risking the world to do it.. I'd rather not know. This has been debated for years, we won't ever figure it out... Until it's too late.

Other than that, you seem knowledgeable on the subject of the Bible and all... Don't see too much of a point of writing all this.. Where would we be without a belief of God.. I honestly don't know, I like to think the world is a hell of a better place with it though.

[shishcabobers]

5 Proofs of God's existence by Thomas Aquinas

Aquinas: Five Ways to Prove that God exists -- The Arguments (http://www.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/aquinasFiveWays_ArgumentAnalysis.htm)

[The ROMAN]

5 Proofs of God's existence by Thomas Aquinas

Aquinas: Five Ways to Prove that God exists -- The Arguments (http://www.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/aquinasFiveWays_ArgumentAnalysis.htm)


1. Prime Mover argument = Problem is where did Gods movement come from?

2. First Cause Argument = Problem is who caused God, makes him an "uncaused cause."

3. To exist, not to exist = Says that something must have existed at one time in order for all things to exist, assumes this first existing thing is God. Also, he speaks of necessity, but since when did the universe operate on necessity?

4. Graduation Argument = Assumes there is such a thing as "better" so "best" must exist, which is God? Is this not really reaching, and making assumptions? Must all scales have an end? Think about numbers, if one is higher, must there be a highest?

5. Intelligent design = Problem is biologically things are not perfect, chaos exists in nature, so does entropy. Entire galaxies crash into one another. Why would God make an imperfect universe?

I'm no philosopher by a long shot, and honestly his 3rd and 4th arguments are really technical and maybe I don't understand them completely, but his arguments do seem to have serious holes and assumptions in them. Also they have been refuted by other philosophers since then.

EDIT: Here's an example of a response to Aquinas by Bertrand Russell:
Why I Am Not A Christian, by Bertrand Russell (http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html)

There is a better, written response entitled "Why I am not a theist", which is a little better organized (the one above is from a speech).

[Matej]

Ya know. Most of these questions were answered by the pope in a series of talks from 1979 to 84. Pope jp2 basically gave a 1 hour lesson once a week for 5 years. Explained alot of this. It's called the Theology of the Body. Christopher West does a great guide for this book. I recommend it because the pope is long winded. If you want to understand why god created us, why we are the way we are, why we are to toil by the sweat of our brow, why we were cast out after eating from the tree of knowledge, why sex before marriage is bad, why priests are celibate, how your marriage reflects gods love and how you are a reflection of that, how you are a watchman over others. The book is the size of a phone book but is worth it.

To dumb it down a little.
Religion is just like 240's. You can be completely ignorant of the workings of your car. Never visit a forum. Always take your car to the dealer for service and by the end of 10 years of owning that car you'd swear nissans were the most expensive, most prone to break cars and you'd never want to own one ever although you never did any maintenance on it and always paid the most to have any work done. Now as you learn the inner workings of the car, things get cheaper and easier to do. Not as much of a hassle. Once you come to know all aspects of your car. It's easy to diagnose a problem and fix it. Same thing with religion and your life. The more you get to know your relationship with god. The easier it is to maintain it. The more you learn, the easier it is to erase sin from your life. The more fullfilling your marriage is. But most people are stuck at "noob" status. They don't want to click the search button to find an answer; they'd rather gripe about how hard it is to learn or how hard it is to find answers. I mean compare nico to zilvia. "Wahh my car bogs and gets 5mpg whats wrong?" Although it's tougher when it's life's problems. "My marriage is nothing but arguments.. what's wrong?" What I'm getting at though is there are several questions asked here but no one has begun to search for the answers yet I'm sure this isn't the first time you had that question. I bet everyone here has spent more time working on their car that working on their faith. Try and spend some time to understand god. I encourage everyone to search.
Are you saying I should feel guilty if I don't care at all to learn about religion?
Does that make me a bad person?
Will people call me ignorant now?

[C. Senor]

although religion is a very much debated topic, and i have my own beliefs that i hold true. my response stating my view, is that every one has a different outlook on their religious status, much like we all have the same car (a 240), they are all different from each other even if only a minimal difference, as small as one different bolt. same thing with religion. we all believe something, even if it's not believing in anything. its still a belief. so no matter what our views, we all have some sort of "religion."

[BustedS13]

http://i37.tinypic.com/vrvo8n.jpg

[Matej]

Hahaha.
That's exactly why religion is just a belief, and not knowledge.




Actually I think it's a very nice thing when someone truly is religious and really does live by the values and always makes an effort to be a good person. I admire those people.

It just seems that a lot of "religious" people are in it for all the wrong reasons. They are religious because their parents told them they are. They defend their faith, yet many don't even bother to learn about the history of their own religion. They just blindly agree with their religious authority's interpretation of a faith that's supposed to be their own.
These are the people who can do whatever they want, and then they have the luxury of going to confession and confessing all their sins, so they can gloat over me acting like they're a better person.
I'd rather just not make bad decisions in the first place, and if I do regret doing something, I will admit my own guilt and live with it and learn from it.

[BOROSUN]

footprint of a man? i wouldnt called it a man.
the earliest hominin was found around the miocene period by that time the big dinosaurs
were gone but, everything was still enormous.



what happen to the other homo sapiens and neanderthals or other homo genus?

why we survived and they didn't...
the ice age
better tools
better communitcation
luck
alien intervention


anyways, i always picture god as a mass of energy like when bender (futurama) was lost in space accidently met with god.

[Matej]

What are you talking about? We evolved from them, at least from certain species.
Yes, some species of pre-historic "humans" did not survive, because they couldn't adapt. Just like there are endangered species of animals today.
There wasn't just one ice age, it's a cycle the Earth goes through. We live in a warm period. There will be more ice ages.


"When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all."

Best quote from that show.


Edit
I believe I've misread your post, nevermind.

[luftrofl]

IMO Religion is just an early form of science. It's a way of explaining everything in the world.

god isn't real. it's just a crutch people use to deal with mortality. the end.
While not the case for everybody, I do find this to be the case for an alarming number of people.

People say God isn't real because they want to justify their immoral lifestyle. they don't want to deal with the fact that they will be held accountable.
Wow, that's not closed minded at all/sarcasm. Surely, you can't be serious.

[BOROSUN]

so would you call chimps a man too?

nvm

[Matej]

Who, me?
No, chimps are chimps. Man is a male human.

[SexPanda]

no i call them delicious. i believe that if your a good person regardless of your religion you'll ascend to a higher level of existance.

[BustedS13]

Wow, that's not closed minded at all/sarcasm. Surely, you can't be serious.

he is serious. and don't call him Shirley. cross dressing is a one way ticket to hell.

[Baka Sama]

I have to give it to him... Satan has done a great job of misleading people. Whether its from belief that there is no God, false teachings that youre gonna burn forever in "Hell" if you dont give 10% of your money to some preacher, or in false religion that confuses people so much they just dont care anymore. There are so many blatant lies going around it really just makes me sick of people.

A lady at my job is convinced that some people in alaska or whatever were drilling for oil and hit a cavern. She says they put a microphone down to record vibrations and heared the "sounds of screaming". They recorded it and put it on the internet. As I listened to this "sounds of hell" clip off Godtube she was showing me, I couldnt help but bust out laughnig. I could just picture some idiot at home making the whole thing up to scare people into going to his church. I feel so sorry for people who are so easily decieved.

The ultimate price anyone can pay for their sins is death. I hope in death we all can find the truth we are searching for and the truth in which I believe I already have found.

[WERDdabuilder]

Science vs. God

'Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ.' The atheist
professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new
students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes.'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!' He considers for a moment.

'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can
cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could.
Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does
he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to
Jesus to heal him How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent.

'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a
glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

'Let's start again, young fella Is God good?'

'Er.yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student : 'From...God...'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in
this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes.'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything,
then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle
that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'

Without allowing the student to answer, the professor continues: 'Is there
sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they
exist in this world?'

The student: 'Yes.'

'So who created them?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question.
'Who created them? There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks
away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized.

'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus
Christ, son?'

The student's voice is confident: 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to
identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever actually felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelled your
Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for
that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes.'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has
with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of his
own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'

'Yes,' the professor replies. 'There's heat.'

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room
suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain.

'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited
heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything
called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat,
but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold;
otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every
body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and
heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero
(-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we
use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can
measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of
heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding
like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't
darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called
darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In
reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness
darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a
good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start
with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you
explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You
argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God.
You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and
magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To
view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death
cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just
the absence of it.'

'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a
monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes,
of course I do'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where
the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot
even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching
your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has
subsided.

'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me
give you an example of what I mean.'

The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has
ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.

'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the
professor's brain, touched or smelled the professor's brain? No one appears
to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical,
stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all
due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust
your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face
unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll
have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,'
the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'

Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it
everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in
the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These
manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does
not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like
darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of
God.

God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does
not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when
there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

http://i35.tinypic.com/24l8v4g.jpg

saw this and laughed.

[Rayne]

there is a riverbed with fossilized footprints of man and dinosaur interweaving.
the bible also makes mention of "terrible lizards"

if anything, i'd like to believe if there is a supreme being, he had less to do with it than going "here is this, there is that" maybe he just got the ball rolling ya know, and things have ended up here.

SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE MUST REMEMBER IS THAT MAN WROTE THE BIBLE. WHY DO YOU THINK ITS CALLED "THE KING JAMES VERSION"? BECAUSE KING JAMES TOOK OUT THE STUFF HE DIDNT LIKE AND PUT IN THE THINGS HE DID. EVEN THE ORIGINALS HAVE MASSIVE VARIATIONS IN STORIES WRITTEN BY TWO PEOPLE AT THE SAME EVENT.

googe "marijuana in the bible" and see whats up. green is supposed to be a holy sacrament.

google "the book of thomas"

look for the book called "when science fails" and see the most religion distorted publication to come out in recent history.

the ideals of religion are nice. what isnnt so nice is what the majority of religions turn their followers into.

"more men have been killed in the name of God than any other reason" -George Carlin

The river bed you are referring to is located in Glen Rose, Texas. Which is about a hour and ten minutes South West of Fort Worth, Texas.

[Agent240sx]

Why was the bible written by man?

Man has so many flaws?

^ See now heres a true question you should be asking.

I do believe in a greater being, if you look into all of the major religions the CORE messages are exactly the same, how to live and treat one another etc... The "golden" rule is in almost EVERY major religion yet worded differently (look it up). IT was MAN that distorted the message and teachings and wrote it, rewrote it in his own wording and interpretation, and i'm speaking all on religions and ancient texts and not just refering to the bible etc. If you ever look into religions objectively, cut out all the bs that MAN added and all the fantasy mumbo jumbo you will come to see that at the core they are mostly the same message.

To me we all are connected to one universal being wether race/nationality etc however it is man's version and teachings that has divided everything. Thus you will see the "My version is right, yours is wrong" mentality when it comes to the history of religion and to this day people still carry that mentality.

I have 5 different religions (muslim, buddhist, taoist, christianity and mormon) in my family and I've litterally grew up and experienced all of the above.

My 2cents when it comes to religion.

[DrtyRat]

Wow, that's not closed minded at all/sarcasm. Surely, you can't be serious.
Is it anymore closed minded than saying that God doesn't exist? Am I being anymore offensive to those who say there's no God, with my words, than they are to those who believe there is.
If you guys want to research, you'll find that science is actually beginning to point to the existence of a "Supreme Being". This mostly refers to the "big bang theory". Scientist believe that the earth/universe had a starting point, and from all indications, it was created instantaneously. At one point it didn't exist, and then it did. We all know that something can't be created from nothing, right? No one can take nothing and make something, science has proven this. So the only logical explanation is that it was created, and the "Supreme being" is the only alternative, realistically, that exist.
he is serious. and don't call him Shirley. cross dressing is a one way ticket to hell.
Funniest post in this thread.

Look, the bottom line is I believe what I believe and others believe what they believe. I'm not trying to be "preachy" about this and tell you guys how bad you are, I am simply stating what I believe. I can't emphasize enough that I am NO ONE to tell you that you are "bad" because all I would have to do is go look back on my life and have myself, instantly, humbled. I have been a Christian for 28yrs, and have, maybe, been living like one for 5 of those
years. I sinned then, and I continue to do it today because I'm human. I haven't, intentionally, said a curse word in over 3yrs, which means absolutely squat. I know plenty of non-Christians who don't curse, but that doesn't mean they are going to Heaven. Your/My good works will not get you/me into Heaven.
....discussion continues....

[98s14inaz]

We are all dying right now...slowly. I believe when they ate the forbidden fruit they began dying. Every generation of man since then has had a shorter life span.

[98s14inaz]

If Adam and Eve were the first humans, does that make us all inbreds? Isn't inbreeding a sin?

Not really. It's more like masterbating because Eve is part of us :rofl:

[98s14inaz]

Maybe I am a heretic but if God is all knowing, all powerful, and the very essence of good...how could he/she create anything that could be or even become evil? Do you think he/she was bored and said, "I'm going to create some drama to entertain myself"?

[The ROMAN]

Maybe I am a heretic but if God is all knowing, all powerful, and the very essence of good...how could he/she create anything that could be or even become evil? Do you think he/she was bored and said, "I'm going to create some drama to entertain myself"?
That's one of the problems with Gods existence as a "watchmaker". If he created the universe and the heavens, he made mistakes-->so he is not perfect--> he is not god. Or if you believe in God maybe you could say the universe is like the matrix in that a degree of imperfection was required. :rofl:


We are all dying right now...slowly. I believe when they ate the forbidden fruit they began dying. Every generation of man since then has had a shorter life span.
Every generation of man has a longer lifespan unless you are going backwards in time. Eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge meant man "consumed" knowledge, so it's like knowledge and free will was the path away from God. You can also think of it as a metaphor for the modern age, where knowledge and science rules (as opposed to the dark ages, where dogma ruled) What you say reminds me of something I heard once, though. At a certain point, maybe around age 25, the body transitions into a decaying state from a growing one. But that's just life...

[racepar1]

The bible is a 3000 year old book that was originally written by man in a dead language, has been translated and re-translated more times then it is possible to count, and has multiple versions each of which is slightly different. ANYONE who takes that book 100% seriously is seriously fucked in the head. It is a book of stories meant to teach morals, that is all.

I hate more than anything when somebody considers their religious beliefs knowledge rather than just a belief. My lady's church is filled with people like that. Whenever I try to have a religious conversation with any of them I always end up hearing "you just don't understand". It is not that I don't understand it is that I don't BELIEVE what they do. I am willing to listen and consider anybody else's beliefs, it angers me when the people whose beliefs I am listening to and considering have no interest in considering or listening to my beliefs. Hell I am the guy who stood out on my porch and debated with the mormon guys that always stop by untill they told me that they had to leave. It was however a good conversation because both sides were listenint to the other and both sides were willing to concede that we were talking about beliefs, NOT facts.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

The bible is a 3000 year old book that was originally written by man in a dead language, has been translated and re-translated more times then it is possible to count, and has multiple versions each of which is slightly different. ANYONE who takes that book 100% seriously is seriously fucked in the head. It is a book of stories meant to teach morals, that is all.

I hate more than anything when somebody considers their religious beliefs knowledge rather than just a belief. My lady's church is filled with people like that. Whenever I try to have a religious conversation with any of them I always end up hearing "you just don't understand". It is not that I don't understand it is that I don't BELIEVE what they do. I am willing to listen and consider anybody else's beliefs, it angers me when the people whose beliefs I am listening to and considering have no interest in considering or listening to my beliefs. Hell I am the guy who stood out on my porch and debated with the mormon guys that always stop by untill they told me that they had to leave. It was however a good conversation because both sides were listenint to the other and both sides were willing to concede that we were talking about beliefs, NOT facts.
if you seriously do not believe that a talking burning bush existed then YOU have to get your head examined! I mean, the world floods all the time right?

[xtheenderx]

It is a book of stories meant to teach morals, that is all.

Agreed, in general people stride to become a better person and i think that religion gives some sort of explanation as to why we should have good morals. Of course we can all agree that although everyone might have different beliefs, which I respect as I too was a christian, many have similar traits. Its safe to say that most if not all religion has some sort of reason as to why we should all be a "good" person. EG: Buddhism is to kharma and Christianity/Catholicism/Islam/Judaism is to heaven/hell. Those are all examples of people's explanation to have good morals.

.02cents

[Zenki_S14]

Does anyone here believe we were created by aliens from outer space? As if we were their experiment? I was brought up as a Catholic but gradually faded away from my religion. I basically just lived my life. As I grew older, I met my Christian friends and it made me think about this for awhile. I've attended their church many times. I've gone to their bible studies. I've listened and questioned guest speakers from Evangelical schools. I've read chapters throughout the bible that they had bought for me. I've had endless conversations about Christianity with many friends and even strangers. I've gone to Youtube to look up videos on Christianity. I've completely opened my mind to this religion. I realized, "Wow, these people are really f*cked in the head." Most of these people believe in God because it was part of their up bringing, along with their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. If the world faced the reality that there is no God, then it would be the biggest devastation in mankind. For thousands of years, mankind fought and died over religion. Your friends and family are fighting and dying in The Iraq because of religion. RELIGION IS POWER. Religion is used to manipulate and control people. Religion brings in BILLIONS of dollars EVERY YEAR. Religion is controlled by the government. You take away the religion, you take away their billions of dollars. You fuck with the government's money, they will f*ck you up. I've come to a conclusion, there is no God. You have one life to live. Live it well. The girl next door that you've been jerking off to, go f*ck her now. The hot girl sitting next to you in math class, f*ck her too. Amen? Amen.

[SexPanda]

I will explain my theory of religion with smileys... And then I will explain exactly what I just did...


:s101::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown: :rant::loco: :dead::wtf::naw: :spank::fawk2: :lfault: :wavey:



:w00t:

Now, you interpret that.

Everyones going to have a different interpretation. And everyones wrong according to everyone else. Religion is 1% knowledge, 1% fear, 40% pride, and 58% your own interpretation. Basically what Im saying is, this debate will never end, everyones wrong, everyones right, no ones right, no ones wrong... Its funny really.

Be a good person. Do the right thing. Dont dwell on the past, look forward to the future. Now your going to heaven. THE END!!!

Isnt that what every religion is saying if you look past all the filler text?

[theicecreamdan]

Science can be proven realistically.

The bible are documented words made by man.

Why can't we see all the miracles and wonders that are mentioned in the bible?

Science can't prove very much of anything. We don't have enough data to completely support everything.

There is more known about evolution than there is about fucking gravity.

There are models and theories and hypotheses... but really there is no truth. Reality is unique to each and every individual. Nothing exists without the connections it has to everything else.

I'm not putting science down, these are all beautiful reasons that keep me wanting more. Thats why I will be a scientist.

Take any religion in the world, and truthfully look at it from the perspective of the people that believe in it, they do seem to make sense. The only problem I have with a lot of religions is that they compete and try to exclude other religions. Guess what? For each reality there is a different truth and these truths can differ without interfering.

[racepar1]

The only problem I have with a lot of religions is that they compete and try to exclude other religions. Guess what? For each reality there is a different truth and these truths can differ without interfering.

That is what REALLY turns me away from organized religion, their unwillingness to concede that there are (or even MIGHT be) other ways to live a good life. ANYTHING other than their own particular religion/belief structure is evil and wrong. I have incorporated ideas from every single religion that i have ever learned anything about into my own personal belief structure. I AM "christian" and I DO 100% believe that god exists in one form or another, just NOT the traditional vengeful form. I refuse to believe that god would create an imperfect being and then send it to the depths of hell for being imperfect, as it was created. That hipocracy is staggering.

[Ninja>Pirate]

Hahaha god, people still believe in that shit?

[Om1kron]

religion is make believe for grownups.

/thread

[SW20Racer]

The river bed you are referring to is located in Glen Rose, Texas. Which is about a hour and ten minutes South West of Fort Worth, Texas.

that the one. i was just to lazy to type all the extra crap.

religion is make believe for grownups.
/thread

problem being, it isnt limited to adults. its forced onto a more suceptable demographic.
http://www.europe.om.org/images/user/Countries/Praying_Children.jpg

no one has a choice anymore it seems. its always a case of "you're this religion now, so shape up!"

[sub9lulu]

it is more like a legit way to scam people's money

may be it is exactly how everything got started

[mademedoit]

Does anyone here believe we were created by aliens from outer space? As if we were their experiment? I was brought up as a Catholic but gradually faded away from my religion. I basically just lived my life. As I grew older, I met my Christian friends and it made me think about this for awhile. I've attended their church many times. I've gone to their bible studies. I've listened and questioned guest speakers from Evangelical schools. I've read chapters throughout the bible that they had bought for me. I've had endless conversations about Christianity with many friends and even strangers. I've gone to Youtube to look up videos on Christianity. I've completely opened my mind to this religion. I realized, "Wow, these people are really f*cked in the head." Most of these people believe in God because it was part of their up bringing, along with their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, etc. If the world faced the reality that there is no God, then it would be the biggest devastation in mankind. For thousands of years, mankind fought and died over religion. Your friends and family are fighting and dying in The Iraq because of religion. RELIGION IS POWER. Religion is used to manipulate and control people. Religion brings in BILLIONS of dollars EVERY YEAR. Religion is controlled by the government. You take away the religion, you take away their billions of dollars. You fuck with the government's money, they will f*ck you up. I've come to a conclusion, there is no God. You have one life to live. Live it well. The girl next door that you've been jerking off to, go f*ck her now. The hot girl sitting next to you in math class, f*ck her too. Amen? Amen. :bowrofl:Best reply go's to you sir.:bowrofl: As Mark Twain said "faith just means your willing to believe something that you know isn't true". Here's something for the religious to think about :l101: if god created man first why do men have nipples?

[ESmorz]

I hate more than anything when somebody considers their religious beliefs knowledge rather than just a belief. My lady's church is filled with people like that.

Fuck that, this thread is full of them.

:angel:

[downshift_sideways]

I call them Fanatics.

and boy do they get pissed off.

[Sil-Abc]

o fuck, u just had to open this can of worms lol

This is my theory and whatever u say will not change my mind or make me reconsider.

God is fake. He was made up just like the easter bunny and santa claus.

WHY? you ask. Well heres my explanation.

In every society, there must always be someone or something for people to follow or listen to. This person or thing is resembled as a leader in the eyes of it's followers. Everywhere u go, there is always an example of this theory. The president, the boss of your job, your parents, someone u look up to and listen to. When you don't have a leader, they will be mass confusion and conflicts. No one will know what to do, whats right/wrong, what to believe. Humans are down-right stupid. People need to be told what to do, whatever they say about being independent or they dont listen to others, theyre all hypocrites because they always listen to others (for instance u listen to ur doctor). Back before there was a democracy or presidents and all that bullshit, no one had someone to look up to except for their "tribe leader". Even then this leader can only handle their own group and not any other group so their would be several leaders but no one had full control. I believe someone created up god as a figure to guide people and create order. By striking fear into peoples minds about his powers and how he is a greater being and everything he says is correct, people will be able to follow "his sayings" and order will be there. Regardless of who we are, we are always following someone because u can't live by urself and have no one to look up to. this god is something that people can look up to and follow his footsteps so chaos can be avoided. People will argue about the bible and dead sea scrolls but to me, the bible was no other than a compilation of fairy tales and stories kinda like harry potter. Back then stories were always told and of course people would travel and discover new places they would share stories. That is how the bible can be found in different countries and in different languages because of sharing stories. Dead sea scrolls, same thing, stories passed on and everything is based on what people say. If i tell u something and have u tell it to someone else and have them do the same thing, by the 10th person my story would no longer be the same thing. Same in books, if i read harry potter and wrote it down again, of course i would add changes that i would see fit and eventually come up with a story thats completely different.

Overall, god or whatever ur higher being is, they were made up so people have someone to look up to and follow. Its a clever move so people have this "hope" and can believe in someones words and think they are being lead in the right path. Im not sure if this makes sense but if u really want to hear more about my theory, we can have dinner and ill talk to u about it there in bigger detail. Ive had convos with people and no one has heard of my theory before and so far, i still have debates about this with them from time to time.

[WanganRunner]

It's funny, most car boards I'm on have a decidedly conservative bent, which usually includes having a large number of fundamentalist Christian/Evangelical members. It's always come as a real surprise to me, just because I didn't think as many people in the "240 fanboy" age group fit that demographic.

Zilvia seems to be very much the opposite, perhaps because it's more CA-centric?

I get into these arguments on my other boards all the time. I'm a mildly religious guy, but I take the same "it's a 3000 year old book" tack as most moderate Christians. It PISSES PEOPLE OFF. I never thought I'd run into so many Biblical Literalists on fucking car boards, but they're everywhere. I mean, real absolute loony wackball dinosaurs-coexisted-with-people Jesus'-face-in-my-grilled-cheese fuckmobiles, dozens of them. They're out there in rural VA or whatever breeding and rubbing NASCAR memorabilia on their crotches and dreaming of threesomes with a moose and Sarah Palin. It seriously scares the shit out of me, I'm going to move to Holland or something.

[SHIFT_*grind*]

I mean, real absolute loony wackball dinosaurs-coexisted-with-people Jesus'-face-in-my-grilled-cheese fuckmobiles, dozens of them. They're out there in rural VA or whatever breeding and rubbing NASCAR memorabilia on their crotches and dreaming of threesomes with a moose and Sarah Palin. It seriously scares the shit out of me, I'm going to move to Holland or something.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[dynamicck]

Religion can be argued till the end of time.

But demon possessed...it's real.
Seen it with my own eyes. It wasn't fake, or made up in front of a bunch of people. It was randomly at night while bunch of us kids were playing near a church.
Probably one of the shocking moments of my life.

I'm not trying to force any type of religion on anyone. But there are supernatural things/beings, ghosts, demons that are real. Travel outside of the USA, and you'll see.
Many other countries seen possessed people, but it's much more rare in US.
Seen a possessed person released of demons.
The way I look at it is... if there is evil, there must be good. If there's a satan, there must be a God.

[ESmorz]

^ The devil isn't welcome in the good 'ol US of A?

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/050124/19831__exorcist_l.jpg

[dynamicck]

no joke.
but that possessed person turned her head almost 180 degrees.
some gangster dood shot her while she was going crazy, with an airsoft gun.
And she turned her head around like that.

We almost shat our pants.

[ESmorz]

If he was a real gangster he would have used a 9.

Hollow points for the Demons.

[Bushido]

god (in the biblical sense) is make believe.

[dynamicck]

It is illegal to have guns in Korea.

[raen419]

Hm.....interesting perspectives.

I look at things like this. And for anyone's reference, the Bible I use is the King James Version.
God is sovereign. I can't think like He does, therefore I do no question His Word...b/c well....I know not to (several past experiences have taught me this). I read and understand everything in my Bible, and believe it....why? B/c I believe it is the Word of God, and have no actual reason not to.
Was it written by man? Yes. But not in the sense that most of us consider. Many (but not all) men who wrote many of the books in the KJ Version weren't sitting at desks or at their house/hut/palace writing. They wrote while be persecuted by ignorant men who took the Word and preaching of God (and all included beliefs) as a sucker punch to their egos, and a threat to their way of life. Their stories were written down b/c (imo) it was God's way of helping them through their tribulations.

Dinosaurs may've been mentioned in the Bible. Check the book of Job. Iirc, leviathan and behemoth are used in there to describe animals/reptiles of enormous size. There are probably more places to look too, but I can't remember where off the top of my head. I only remember Job b/c my preacher and I chatted about it a few weeks back.

When it comes to Satan, I'm not too sure where to start. He started as a serpent, and according to the KJV, he inspires all that is not Godly. Which is um....a lot. As for the actual being, I doubt he's got horns and stuff. There's no Biblical reference for that, last I checked (I could be mistaken, I've yet to read my whole Bible...plus my memory isn't the greatest).

As for what my religion is called, its pretty simple: Primitive Baptist, before that (back in like....1800s or something) we were called the Antioch Baptist, and before that, I'm not sure. Never dug back that far. I might some day though. Church service is simple too, nothing fancy or complicated. Sing for 30min from random songs in our song books, prayer, preaching for an hr or so, go around for handshake (i.e. meet and greet everyone and say hello or whatever), prayer, and DONE. Its nice. Hr and a half and then off to lunch or the autoX.

Btw, if you're looking for all these miracles that are spoken of in the Old Testament, don't bother. The last time anyone saw a miracle like healing the sick, bringing back the dead, or something else, was like....70 A.D.

I can reveal more if anyone wants more info/insight or whatever, but trust me when I say that the more to read about what God wants from you, the more you'll feel like your toes are being stepped on. It sucks, but thats being human for ya.

[racepar1]

Hm.....interesting perspectives.

I look at things like this. And for anyone's reference, the Bible I use is the King James Version.
God is sovereign. I can't think like He does, therefore I do no question His Word...b/c well....I know not to (several past experiences have taught me this). I read and understand everything in my Bible, and believe it....why? B/c I believe it is the Word of God, and have no actual reason not to.
Was it written by man? Yes. But not in the sense that most of us consider. Many (but not all) men who wrote many of the books in the KJ Version weren't sitting at desks or at their house/hut/palace writing. They wrote while be persecuted by ignorant men who took the Word and preaching of God (and all included beliefs) as a sucker punch to their egos, and a threat to their way of life. Their stories were written down b/c (imo) it was God's way of helping them through their tribulations.

I do not understand how you can be content not to question. I question everything. I NEVER accept ANYTHING as truth simply because somebody says so.

Dinosaurs may've been mentioned in the Bible. Check the book of Job. Iirc, leviathan and behemoth are used in there to describe animals/reptiles of enormous size. There are probably more places to look too, but I can't remember where off the top of my head. I only remember Job b/c my preacher and I chatted about it a few weeks back.

Dinosaurs existed roughly 65 million years ago, as far as I know the bible only goes back a few thousand years.

When it comes to Satan, I'm not too sure where to start. He started as a serpent, and according to the KJV, he inspires all that is not Godly. Which is um....a lot. As for the actual being, I doubt he's got horns and stuff. There's no Biblical reference for that, last I checked (I could be mistaken, I've yet to read my whole Bible...plus my memory isn't the greatest).

"Satan"originally exised as an angel (lucifer), actually god's "right hand man" so to speak.

As for what my religion is called, its pretty simple: Primitive Baptist, before that (back in like....1800s or something) we were called the Antioch Baptist, and before that, I'm not sure. Never dug back that far. I might some day though. Church service is simple too, nothing fancy or complicated. Sing for 30min from random songs in our song books, prayer, preaching for an hr or so, go around for handshake (i.e. meet and greet everyone and say hello or whatever), prayer, and DONE. Its nice. Hr and a half and then off to lunch or the autoX.

Btw, if you're looking for all these miracles that are spoken of in the Old Testament, don't bother. The last time anyone saw a miracle like healing the sick, bringing back the dead, or something else, was like....70 A.D.

I can reveal more if anyone wants more info/insight or whatever, but trust me when I say that the more to read about what God wants from you, the more you'll feel like your toes are being stepped on. It sucks, but thats being human for ya.

I'm guessing pretty much typical southern baptist. I wouldn't go so far as to say that you can "reveal" anything to anybody. That comes off as a bit condescending. Remember that your beliefs are only that, beliefs not facts. That is the only way to actually have a conversation about religion. If you are not willing to concede that the conversation only ends up as a fight. People die over beliefs when they are considered truths.

[downshift_sideways]

Please give me the exact chapter and verse where the bible mentioned about "dinosaurs"

I know what verse your looking at, and it's no where near "dinosaurs"...it gives you a description of a "dragon". with scales and fire from it's mouth.

[Matej]

ANYONE who takes that book 100% seriously is seriously fucked in the head. It is a book of stories meant to teach morals, that is all.
Yes.
The idea behind the Bible is nice in my opinion, but I find it ridiculous how literally it is taken.
I can't understand how so many people, many of whom are otherwise intelligent and think logically, so blindly believe those children's stories.
I can definitely understand the Bible's significance as the largest most popular and also one of the oldest known collections of folk tales and moral stories, but I seriously don't see what makes it so much more credible than let's say Brothers Grimm or Mother Goose tales. Why don't people believe in those? I guess because the Bible is older? At least certain versions of it.
If I didn't know anything about religion or the world, and someone had me read the Bible and a Harry Potter book, and then ask me to pick which one I believe to be based on truth, I'm pretty sure I'd pick Harry Potter. Same would go for almost any other popular fiction.

[SexPanda]

...dreaming of threesomes with a moose and Sarah Palin.

Where can I go to see this?

For science, that is...:naughtyd:

[Agent240sx]

Hm.....interesting perspectives.

I look at things like this. And for anyone's reference, the Bible I use is the King James Version.
God is sovereign. I can't think like He does, therefore I do no question His Word...b/c well....I know not to (several past experiences have taught me this). I read and understand everything in my Bible, and believe it....why? B/c I believe it is the Word of God, and have no actual reason not to.
Was it written by man? Yes. But not in the sense that most of us consider. Many (but not all) men who wrote many of the books in the KJ Version weren't sitting at desks or at their house/hut/palace writing. They wrote while be persecuted by ignorant men who took the Word and preaching of God (and all included beliefs) as a sucker punch to their egos, and a threat to their way of life. Their stories were written down b/c (imo) it was God's way of helping them through their tribulations.

See that was my point, I do believe god has left his word to man to do good etc, and there is an evil ... in all major religions. Thats EXACTLY the problem with religion however it is MAN's interpretation of gods word thus leading to the divide in religions and different religions thinking their way is right.

Its become us putting our faith in MAN's word and not god's word, you see what i'm getting at? Exactly why people will fight over religion for the entire history of mankind because of religion. Its not that the bible or other religious text (all religions worldwide) isn't true as all of them contain the message of god you just need to look beyond the bullshit added by man to find that messages.

You ever play that game "broken telephone" as a child?

Picture this, back in ancient times (and remember they were much more wacky back then lol).
Say "god" came to speak to a group of people or person in Asia, the same god then came to north america to share the same message. You think these 2 same groups or person will hear the same message? NOT a chance!

Did you know Christianity and Judaism's "Golden Rule" is found in 21 or more Different world religions?

http://www.victoriamultifaith.com/images/Golden-Rule.gif

Theres many others that have the same message.
Sure some of these things can be questions however all major religions have the same underlining messages to treat others the same, to do good etc etc.

[spoolandslide]

Religion has major design flaw, which puts it into the same category as communism and true love.

"yeah, cool idea... but hasn't worked out in the history of man"

[PoorMans180SX]

The bible talks about dinosaurs in the book of Job. I'll find it tomorrow.

Some good links:

Creation Worldview Ministries: The Nine Great 'Proofs' for Evolution: and Why They Are All False! (http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=53)

Creation Science Evangelism - Creation, Evolution, Dinosaurs, and the Bible. (http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=59)

[hitman]

i dont see how anyone could take religion seriously after nietzsche. i will however say the only worthwhile and tenable religious perspective imo is that of liberation theology. i dont see what in anyones experience has given them the impression of some sort of god existing, and more specifically the belief in any sort of "true eternal" god is some sort of metaphysical view of history that denies historiocity.
furthermore anyone who places any more belief in science that religion also has issues. science itself is just one interpretation of the world. scientists have a concrete theoretical framework from which they are working from before they even do "science". you cant look at all the "facts" (which are shaped by theory), thus to decide which facts are more "valuable" than other, how to look at these facts (methodology) etc, all presuppose some sort of theoretical stance prior to investigation, thus destroying notions of "objectivity" and "unnatachment". these values and assumptions which guide "science" differ from culture to culture and epoch to epoch. it really is your personal world view, whatever it may be, that creates the world you live in. even "love" is a notion created by people in a certain historical epoch. so when people say they love god they are just using one ideological construct to describe their relation to another. you get the point.

[Matej]

No I'm pretty sure many won't get your point haha, as almost no one on here can truly relate to those terms unless they're studying philosophy.
I have to disagree with what you said about science and facts. You can look at "facts," they don't even necessarily have to be "scientific" facts, fact is a fact because it's something that can be observed and/or proven to be true. That is the widely accepted real world definition of fact. Are you a Philosophy major by any chance? Most advanced philosophy students talk like they're living in the Matrix, as nothing is real or given. In my opinion that is a rather extreme viewpoint in itself, because if each individual truly decided to live by his or her personal world view, there would be chaos. I understand a philosopher may define fact differently, and it will definitely make sense, but chances are it won't work in the "real" world, as entire societies are built and live on presuppositions.
Yeah I'm pretty sure you can rip what I just said completely apart, but if my assumption is correct that's basically what you're studying to do.

[g6civcx]

I don't understand the "treat others as you want to be treated" rule.

We each are different and want different things. My friend loves peanuts and I am allergic to peanuts.

She would love someone to feed her peanuts. If she fed me peanuts, I would die.


Is the rule wrong?

I believe in treating others the way they want to be treated, not how you want to be treated. What gives?

[hitman]

ya im a philosophy major but i take a lot of other classes as well in soc/lit/poli sci/womens studies.
its not that "nothing is real" while that is what they say, its that everything is now real. when they say nothing is real they are usually reffering to what derrida calls the transcendental signified, basically any metaphysical being (or concept-ie "humanity" or "rationality" (science also)), basically what nietzsche means when he says "god is dead". this isnt some statement saying god was once alive and satan killed him or something, its that in and for mankind god no longer carries much weight. for example in the old ages if a cup fell it was because god wanted it to, or if something needs to get done and someone asks why, its because of god. if people used this logic now days to reply to questions such as those they would get laughed at. basically what they mean is there is nothing to "center" (base life/theories/values (the positivistic notion replacing metaphysics) etc). in other words, while these notions where historically created, they no longer hold weight, and now we (individuals or humanity) must create new values. for example, the notion of completely isolated atomistic humans is entirely created. people view themselves as completely distinct from one another, this is just an assumption that many people over time havent neccesarily agreed with. another is that "human nature" is based on greed, or competition, or selfishness. a marxist might look at this and say these are human characteristics that may come up under certain socioeconomic conditions (such as capitalism), but under other types of societies and relations of production they might become latent (ex socialism, also the ancient greeks were very skeptical of selfish people, while today it is the norm and accepted), while some people might just say there is no human nature, if there is we might not be able to know it, or some sort of sartrean (existentialist) existence precedes essence. most of these theories just assume there is no god though, which i think is a safe interpretation of reality. so basically, since there is no "Center" (god, "reason", etc) there is no SINGLE ie THE interpretation of reality, there can be many. also, when you have some sort of transcendental signified, this can be used as a weapon for domination (think Christianity and colonialism/imperialism). there are facts but only within a context, ie according to certain other standards (something is 1 pd, but the notion of a pound is created) , or its the year 2008, but its people and not some sort of metaphysical thing that decide what year it is. if people wanted next year to become 3005 that could become a fact.
and it is kinda extreme, and really i dont know what you can philosophize about anymore lol since, while im not very learned about this stuff yet, it just seems like well what the fuck can i talk about now, besides critiquing other things. but i think if you buy into the whole "god is dead" and really follow its logic to the end, then you end up in this wierd and extreme position.
its hard to because nietzsche was a total dick in some respects, but he was "right". for example he thinks the ideal society is where the dullest man does the most hard work, and the most sensitive men would just paint and produce culture type stuff like art etc. then you say this isnt democratic etc, then it follows that democracy and equality are also just assumptions, which i think they really are. he says the notion that people are equal might be the worst proved assumption ever, but its just so hard to let things like this go, and i want to say things like people need to treat eachother fairly, but how can i say and justify something like that? thats where it comes down to individuals, i can say i want people to treat each other as equals although it may not be a reflection of reality... i dont know. im struggling through all this stuff, its hard to get classes or professors who are into all this since most of them arent intellectuals but academics and have to impress their coworkers and stuff.
sorry about the grammar... but grammar itself was a historically created thing, meaning people just made it up. so theres that to all you grammar natzis. its just an assumption!
also, its really hard to talk about this stuff, because when viewed and judged from the perspective of sceince, which is pressumed to be rational, anything that goes against it (for example its objectivity) is immediately deemed irrational. but rationality (ie the "inherent ability to determine good from evil" is also just an assumption, just as "good" has meant different things at different times.
i dont know just a rant lol

[hitman]

heres a metaphor for the treat others as you want to be treated rules...
would a lion tell a zebra to treat others as you want to be treated? or would the zebra tell the lion? by now we've all internalized these moral categories, but the creators of these ideologies were weak, in fact slaves (due to their unfortunate social circumstances-not saying slaves are weak im just saying their power in society and to have control over their lives is weak, which was of course no fault of their own) (according to some books ive read.)

in other words, the golden rule was created by the weak (the herd/crowd/the they) in order for them to gain strength and in order to make life more livable for them.

[luisgonz]

We evolve From me getting drunk and sticking my Penis into a girl and BOOOOOOOOOOOOm And some more boom boom boom and some skin slapping for another 3hrs, Then its the wait for 9months. Slap that bitch in the ass and clean up and go home to your wifey. :snoop:

[shishcabobers]

So I haven't read anything but to the people who think the Thomas Aquinas 5 ways of God's existence. Well if you believe God is a spirit, and spirits are not material things then it would make sense otherwise no. There is a gradation of levels of life for example an ant vs us like intellectually. If you noticed we are the only species that has done things blah blah advancements, while others have been the same, act on instinct. too lazy right now....

[hitman]

i think st anselms proof is pretty strong until you realize existence is not a property.
exist=is=being, existence is what ties the property to the object. god IS all powerful etc.
but if you need a proof, then its knowledge, not a "belief"

if youre interested look up "the problem of evil" on wikipedia. its an argument against the existence of god, at least in the judeo christian sense.
it seems if god exists, in the omniscient (all knowing) omnipotent (all powerful) and benevolent, then its hard to explain evil in the world. so, they state there is evil, so, god could fix this, but doesnt, so he isnt all powerful
or, he doesnt know about it, then he isnt all knowing
or he just doesnt care, they he isnt all good

but people say"its for free will"! but these presumes gods existence and isnt an argument really.
i find it hard to keep god and free will together, which christianity gives you both. morality presupposes free will. if the people are part of the casual chain of effects, then what you "should" do doesnt matter since you dont have a choice in the matter.
but if god knows (since he is all knowing) what you will do in the future, is that free will? since he knows everything, you could not have done otherwise (than you did) since he knew what you were going to do before you did it.
so, you couldnt have done otherwise, so you didnt act freely (no free will)

[shishcabobers]

but people say"its for free will"! but these presumes gods existence and isnt an argument really.
i find it hard to keep god and free will together, which christianity gives you both. morality presupposes free will. if the people are part of the casual chain of effects, then what you "should" do doesnt matter since you dont have a choice in the matter.
but if god knows (since he is all knowing) what you will do in the future, is that free will? since he knows everything, you could not have done otherwise (than you did) since he knew what you were going to do before you did it.
so, you couldnt have done otherwise, so you didnt act freely (no free will)

General Misconception of free will, you are thinking about the teaching of Martin Luther's teaching that was about predestination which was totally against what the church taught. He taught that there was only an elect few that would make it to heaven while others were sent to hell. While God is all knowing he knows what is going to basically happen to you but basically throughout your lifetime you are given chances, but the flaw with martin luther was that he taught that the elected few can basically do whatever they want without any punishment and others would go to straight to hell. Catholic Church teaches that there is predestination but we actually don't know whether or not we are going to heaven or hell. Sorry if I have some holes in this im being lazy to get into description. Oh yeah he does know what we are gonna choose its not actually him choosing for us to go to hell, gives us many chances blah blah blah

[luisgonz]

I will strike the With my penis, TO stand my existence.:s101:

[hitman]

im talking about free will in the sense of human beings not being in the chain of cause and effect. about people being able to choose among possibilities freely in an ontological (not political) sense. it has nothing to do with martin luther per se. free will antecedes martin luther by centuries.

[raen419]

I do not understand how you can be content not to question. I question everything. I NEVER accept ANYTHING as truth simply because somebody says so.
If that someone is God, then no I'm not going to question Him...or His Word. I never accept anything said by man unless there is some logical argument behind it. But yes, I know that to the non-believer my faith and view toward God isn't an easy thing to understand.

Dinosaurs existed roughly 65 million years ago, as far as I know the bible only goes back a few thousand years.
I must've missed the part where scientists have proved that this world is 65 million years old.....oh wait, they haven't. The Bible goes back around 6000 years, which is plenty of time for all kinds of things to happen when you consider that the entire theory about evolution and whatnot is nothing more than a hypothesis, as there is no way to 'go back 65 million years' and re-create 'the big bang.' I'm aware that the same can be said for the Biblical account of creation, but thats where faith comes in for me....Faith in God, not man....as man will ALWAYS fail you at some point. God won't.
"Satan"originally exised as an angel (lucifer), actually god's "right hand man" so to speak.
Got proof? I'm not saying I doubt you, but I'd like a Biblical reference to look at for proof of this, b/c well, I'm fuzzy about such things.
I'm guessing pretty much typical southern baptist. I wouldn't go so far as to say that you can "reveal" anything to anybody. That comes off as a bit condescending. Remember that your beliefs are only that, beliefs not facts. That is the only way to actually have a conversation about religion. If you are not willing to concede that the conversation only ends up as a fight. People die over beliefs when they are considered truths.
It might be a bit condescending, but thats me. I'm far from a perfect "Christian" by any means. I didn't say I could 'reveal' anything to anyone, but if people have questions, they've always got the opportunity to ask me. I'll answer accordingly as well.
And Primitive Baptist aren't typical Southern Baptist. We've got some similarities, but plenty of differences too. No piano, no BS like that guy that "throws the Holy Spirit" at people on TV, no choir. Its simple, its (according to the KJV) just like church in Biblical times as far as how church goes, only difference is we're dressed casually, we're in a nice A/C'ed building, and we don't have an Apostle standing in the pulpit....lol. Oh, and our doctrine differs as well from Southern Baptist...but its backed by the KJV down to the word.

If you'd like to know more or dispute whatever, just PM me. Or we can keep it going here. My views on religion are far from anything new, but they are quite logical....once you get around the whole "God" factor (and yes, I know some people will never grasp it). :D

[ESmorz]

Religion is for people who don't want to accept the fact that we may be alone, and death may very well in fact just be the end.

Although my favorite book is in the Old Testament. The Book of Job. That shits hilarious.

http://www.cynical-c.com/archives/bloggraphics/8948IGaveMyselftoJesusPosters.jpg

[heychris]

OK...here's my take....

Somewhere out in the big wide open there is a divine spirit of some kind...It's called many names by many cultures and can take many forms...

Second...Breaking different religions down to thier roots; how many are there? Probably IDK, 13....

Ironic then that the 13 tribes of men left the cradle of life and dispersed accross our world...and interspersed themselves with ALL of the diverse life on the planet...including evolving life forms

Cheers;
CH

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

I just can't believe that people actually still believe in something that was created by man thousands of years ago. It's the biggest scam of all time. I understand that people want to defend their religion but using common sense the concept of a church is the biggest scam in the history of this world. It's also the most profitable. Just think about this. We understand that the stories in the bible are fake, so they get thrown out the window. There's no such thing as magic, or the easter bunny, or santy clause, or other mystical things, that's why the stories are being thrown out. People just believed in those things back then so there was not as much debate in the faith back then. So basically what people believe in is a book which makes about as much sense as any other religious book in the world, including the mormon bible and scientology, and "what they believe in in their hearts." If someone told you that the world was flat for your entire life you'd believe that the world was flat "in your heart" so that also throws that out the window. So basically what you believe in is a book with crazy stories that was written by man. And to say that god commanded the "profits" to write what was written is horse shit because there were thousands of profits who wrote many things and they had to narrow the "prophesies" down to fit in the bible.
Again, it's a good way to live but it's just as real as the easter bunny

[racepar1]

If that someone is God, then no I'm not going to question Him...or His Word. I never accept anything said by man unless there is some logical argument behind it. But yes, I know that to the non-believer my faith and view toward God isn't an easy thing to understand.

I will not question the word of god himself, but I WILL question the word of MEN claiming to be repeating the word of god. I DO actually believe in god, I DO believe in an afterlife (heaven), just NOT in the traditional sense.


I must've missed the part where scientists have proved that this world is 65 million years old.....oh wait, they haven't. The Bible goes back around 6000 years, which is plenty of time for all kinds of things to happen when you consider that the entire theory about evolution and whatnot is nothing more than a hypothesis, as there is no way to 'go back 65 million years' and re-create 'the big bang.' I'm aware that the same can be said for the Biblical account of creation, but thats where faith comes in for me....Faith in God, not man....as man will ALWAYS fail you at some point. God won't.

Dinosaur fossils have been carbon dated as such. Carbon dating is a very accurate way of estimating the age of anything carbon based. 6000 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Got proof? I'm not saying I doubt you, but I'd like a Biblical reference to look at for proof of this, b/c well, I'm fuzzy about such things.

Lucifer was cast from heaven because he questioned god's word. I will ask a buddy of mine who is much more well versed in the bible where I can find the passages dealing with that.

It might be a bit condescending, but thats me. I'm far from a perfect "Christian" by any means. I didn't say I could 'reveal' anything to anyone, but if people have questions, they've always got the opportunity to ask me. I'll answer accordingly as well.
And Primitive Baptist aren't typical Southern Baptist. We've got some similarities, but plenty of differences too. No piano, no BS like that guy that "throws the Holy Spirit" at people on TV, no choir. Its simple, its (according to the KJV) just like church in Biblical times as far as how church goes, only difference is we're dressed casually, we're in a nice A/C'ed building, and we don't have an Apostle standing in the pulpit....lol. Oh, and our doctrine differs as well from Southern Baptist...but its backed by the KJV down to the word.

If you'd like to know more or dispute whatever, just PM me. Or we can keep it going here. My views on religion are far from anything new, but they are quite logical....once you get around the whole "God" factor (and yes, I know some people will never grasp it). :D

There you go assuming your BELIEFS are FACTS again. I truly believe my beliefs, but I will not consider them fact untill they are proven to me (which cannot happen untill after my death). Untill then they are open for discussion and modification.

[txrxs]

The bible talks about dinosaurs in the book of Job. I'll find it tomorrow.

Some good links:

Creation Worldview Ministries: The Nine Great 'Proofs' for Evolution: and Why They Are All False! (http://www.creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=53)

Creation Science Evangelism - Creation, Evolution, Dinosaurs, and the Bible. (http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=59)

Creation Science is a device created to bring religion into schools.

One of the strongest proponents of creation science in schools:
God is for Suckers! » Blog Archive » Oh, Sweet Justice: “Dr. Dino” Kent Hovind Arrested (http://gods4suckers.net/archives/2006/07/15/oh-sweet-justice-dr-dino-kent-hovind-arrested/)

He is also the author of those wonderful sites you posted.

Also, Kent Hovind is also not a real doctor.

Why people laugh at creationists:
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=AC3481305829426D)

[ESmorz]

There you go assuming your BELIEFS are FACTS again. I truly believe my beliefs, but I will not consider them fact untill they are proven to me (which cannot happen untill after my death). Untill then they are open for discussion and modification.

See but that is where Christianity and other religions get you. If you want to go to heaven you MUST accept it all as truth and obey.

Such bs.

[raen419]

I will not question the word of god himself, but I WILL question the word of MEN claiming to be repeating the word of god. I DO actually believe in god, I DO believe in an afterlife (heaven), just NOT in the traditional sense.
I do. If you don't believe what I've to say, go read the KJV.

Dinosaur fossils have been carbon dated as such. Carbon dating is a very accurate way of estimating the age of anything carbon based. 6000 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Carbon dating has been proven to be VERY inaccurate. In the early 90s scientist carbon dated a telephone. The report was that the telephone was over 3-4000 years old. Also, read this:
THE PROBLEMS WITH CARBON-14 DATING (http://contenderministries.org/evolution/carbon14.php)
Lucifer was cast from heaven because he questioned god's word. I will ask a buddy of mine who is much more well versed in the bible where I can find the passages dealing with that.
Sounds interesting, but let me know when your buddy can provide you with the scriptures. I'd like to look it up for my own knowledge.
There you go assuming your BELIEFS are FACTS again. I truly believe my beliefs, but I will not consider them fact untill they are proven to me (which cannot happen untill after my death). Untill then they are open for discussion and modification.
And I truly believe mine, and I base them as fact (to me) b/c no one has ever or will ever be able to prove ANYTHING in the Bible wrong. Scientists will claim they know this and they know that until the end of time, but they'll never actually prove anything. I also don't understand why it bothers you that I take the KJV as fact. I'm not here to debate my beliefs with anyone else's. I trust God, I don't need death to prove anything to me. If you do, thats your issue, and I have no input on it. K? I'm not here to push anything on anyone else. All I've done is provide you guys w/ what I believe....I never claimed that I wanted to 'save' anyone (which I don't, b/c I can't). Comprente?

[Matej]

Religion has always been slowing down the development of society in my opinion.
Many great minds were labeled heretics in the past, some were even executed just for questioning a religious presupposition.
More recently, stem cell research comes to mind.
Without religion, I believe humanity could be further along than where we are right now, building deathstars to fight apes in space or something.

[shishcabobers]

Religion has always been slowing down the development of society in my opinion.
Many great minds were labeled heretics in the past, some were even executed just for questioning a religious presupposition.
More recently, stem cell research comes to mind.
Without religion, I believe humanity could be further along than where we are right now, building deathstars to fight apes in space or something.

So I'm guessing you believe in Friedrich Nietzsche beliefs that God is dead, and that once we banish religion forever we all will become super humans.

http://www.nowandzen.com/assets/images/nietzsche/niet4.gif

btw not all stem cell research is bad, for example umbilical cords.

[g6civcx]

ya im a philosophy major but i take a lot of other classes as well in soc/lit/poli sci/womens studies.

Preach on! I hear you, and I get "it". :naughty:

[racepar1]

heres a metaphor for the treat others as you want to be treated rules...
would a lion tell a zebra to treat others as you want to be treated? or would the zebra tell the lion? by now we've all internalized these moral categories, but the creators of these ideologies were weak, in fact slaves (due to their unfortunate social circumstances-not saying slaves are weak im just saying their power in society and to have control over their lives is weak, which was of course no fault of their own) (according to some books ive read.)

in other words, the golden rule was created by the weak (the herd/crowd/the they) in order for them to gain strength and in order to make life more livable for them.

I disagree. The whole "treat others as you would want to be treated" thing is just a generalization of the moral standards that we as human beings should uphold. It cannot be applied literally to any and all situations, it can be applied generally to most situations. We, human beings, no longer have to fight to survive (generally speaking). We have advanced to a point where we can make the world what we want it to be, speaking generally not literally. Therefore we are held to a higher moral standard than any other species on the face of the earth. There is no need for our animal instincts at this point in time, or any point in time for about the last 500 years or so. We should be generally polite as we have no need not to be. It basically translates to "don't go out and intentionally hurt other people". And that will always be true in our society.

[Matej]

So I'm guessing you believe in Friedrich Nietzsche beliefs that God is dead, and that once we banish religion forever we all will become super humans.

http://www.nowandzen.com/assets/images/nietzsche/niet4.gif

btw not all stem cell research is bad, for example umbilical cords.
Uhh, no.

And I support stem cell research, I think you misunderstood my post. :)

[shishcabobers]

Uhh, no.

And I support stem cell research, I think you misunderstood my post. :)

oops sorry :kiss: but yeah what basically you said was what nietzche taught.

[Matej]

oops sorry :kiss: but yeah what basically you said was what nietzche taught.
It is quite alright sir, absolutely my fault, I should have been more clear. :kiss:

[SexPanda]

lol. This thread is like...

Its like a hippo trying to convince an elephant that tusks just... arent where its at. All about the horn lol.

In all seriousness though... I bet when some of you get into heaven, God's going to be like "dude... Seriously, you got it all wrong. But close enough for me. Here's some cake"

Heaven's going to be kick ass.

[g6civcx]

I disagree. The whole "treat others as you would want to be treated" thing is just a generalization of the moral standards that we as human beings should uphold. It cannot be applied literally to any and all situations, it can be applied generally to most situations. We, human beings, no longer have to fight to survive (generally speaking). We have advanced to a point where we can make the world what we want it to be, speaking generally not literally. Therefore we are held to a higher moral standard than any other species on the face of the earth. There is no need for our animal instincts at this point in time, or any point in time for about the last 500 years or so. We should be generally polite as we have no need not to be. It basically translates to "don't go out and intentionally hurt other people". And that will always be true in our society.

I don't understand.

"treat others as you would want to be treated" = "don't go out and intentionally hurt other people"?

Please explain the parallel.

[SexPanda]

I don't understand.

"treat others as you would want to be treated" = "don't go out and intentionally hurt other people"?

Please explain the parallel.

What if your into BDSM?

[g6civcx]

What if your into BDSM?

What do you mean "if"?

[SexPanda]

Well some of the more conservative members of Zilvia...

eh never mind lol. Next time I go out Im going to slap some girl and call her a dirty whore and pee in her hair, and hope she does the same for me.

(im kidding. Beating women is wrong)

[g6civcx]

Next time I go out Im going to slap some girl and call her a dirty whore and pee in her hair, and hope she does the same for me.

Go on... :naughty:

[ESmorz]

(im kidding. Beating women is wrong)

Spank that ass!

:coolugh:

[SexPanda]

put a gag in her mouth, pour hot candle wax down her ass crack, cover her in whip cream, and yes, spank that ass.

Then she'd do the same for me. YAY! RELIGION IS AWESOME!

[g6civcx]

put a gag in her mouth, pour hot candle wax down her ass crack, cover her in whip cream, and yes, spank that ass.

Then she'd do the same for me. YAY! RELIGION IS AWESOME!

Then what?

[ESmorz]

In summation:

http://migration.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/christianity.jpg

and for good measure...

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/nickda50/Christianity.png

[SHIFT_*grind*]

What do you mean "if"?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, best post yet.

[PoorMans180SX]

i think st anselms proof is pretty strong until you realize existence is not a property.
exist=is=being, existence is what ties the property to the object. god IS all powerful etc.
but if you need a proof, then its knowledge, not a "belief"

if youre interested look up "the problem of evil" on wikipedia. its an argument against the existence of god, at least in the judeo christian sense.
it seems if god exists, in the omniscient (all knowing) omnipotent (all powerful) and benevolent, then its hard to explain evil in the world. so, they state there is evil, so, god could fix this, but doesnt, so he isnt all powerful
or, he doesnt know about it, then he isnt all knowing
or he just doesnt care, they he isnt all good

but people say"its for free will"! but these presumes gods existence and isnt an argument really.
i find it hard to keep god and free will together, which christianity gives you both. morality presupposes free will. if the people are part of the casual chain of effects, then what you "should" do doesnt matter since you dont have a choice in the matter.
but if god knows (since he is all knowing) what you will do in the future, is that free will? since he knows everything, you could not have done otherwise (than you did) since he knew what you were going to do before you did it.
so, you couldnt have done otherwise, so you didnt act freely (no free will)

I always understood that an All-knowing God and free will goes like this:

You have complete free will.

God knows how every decision will affect everything around you, so he has this giant tree starting at where/when you were born. Everything from there on is affected by you, and each decision makes a branch in the tree, so your choices determine which branch of the tree you go down, and ultimately when you die.

Therefore, since God has given us free will. We can choose what to do with it. Since we aren't perfect, we make bad choices. Sometimes evil choices. These are a result of mans imperfection.




There you go assuming your BELIEFS are FACTS again. I truly believe my beliefs, but I will not consider them fact untill they are proven to me (which cannot happen untill after my death). Untill then they are open for discussion and modification.

You forget that the bible has been proven historically accurate hundreds of times. Archeologists have found whole civilizations and cities based on locations described in the bible.

[drift925]

i dont see how anyone could take religion seriously after nietzsche. i will however say the only worthwhile and tenable religious perspective imo is that of liberation theology. i dont see what in anyones experience has given them the impression of some sort of god existing, and more specifically the belief in any sort of "true eternal" god is some sort of metaphysical view of history that denies historiocity.
furthermore anyone who places any more belief in science that religion also has issues. science itself is just one interpretation of the world. scientists have a concrete theoretical framework from which they are working from before they even do "science". you cant look at all the "facts" (which are shaped by theory), thus to decide which facts are more "valuable" than other, how to look at these facts (methodology) etc, all presuppose some sort of theoretical stance prior to investigation, thus destroying notions of "objectivity" and "unnatachment". these values and assumptions which guide "science" differ from culture to culture and epoch to epoch. it really is your personal world view, whatever it may be, that creates the world you live in. even "love" is a notion created by people in a certain historical epoch. so when people say they love god they are just using one ideological construct to describe their relation to another. you get the point.

The main reason why I dont have religious beliefs. Basically the way we see the world is so limited and feeble. Are limits is what we can think, hear, see, touch, and smell, and to understand anything greater is impossible. I dont believe in god but hopefully he exists.

[hitman]

I disagree. The whole "treat others as you would want to be treated" thing is just a generalization of the moral standards that we as human beings should uphold. It cannot be applied literally to any and all situations, it can be applied generally to most situations. We, human beings, no longer have to fight to survive (generally speaking). We have advanced to a point where we can make the world what we want it to be, speaking generally not literally. Therefore we are held to a higher moral standard than any other species on the face of the earth. There is no need for our animal instincts at this point in time, or any point in time for about the last 500 years or so. We should be generally polite as we have no need not to be. It basically translates to "don't go out and intentionally hurt other people". And that will always be true in our society.
why "should" we uphold them?
"should" is a moral concept.
many would disagree and say that capitalism makes people act as animals.

[s14driftNA]

They way I see it, I'd rather be right then wrong when I die, If God isn't real then it wasn't a waste, I'm dead, If he is then I'll be in heaven not in hell, that simple, people just wanna do their drugs and have sex willy nilly, our minds are hardwired to have a healthy lifestyle. Look at celebs, they are the extreme and they are nuts!

[Slammed180]

I do not believe in any religion. Methinks it's just more propaganda created by "cults" fearful of loosing any sort of control over it's desired demographic.

Not to say that I look down on anyone who believes in it. It's just not for me.

[BustedS13]

so you claim to be a Christian as a safety net? i'm pretty sure that if you read into it, it won't work that way.

p.s. worst thread bump ever, lock this shit

[andmattsayd]

http://whitmatthews.com/images/christsez.jpg

[zenki.life]

so you claim to be a Christian as a safety net? i'm pretty sure that if you read into it, it won't work that way.

p.s. worst thread bump ever, lock this shit

hehe. i second that

[Helghast]

Let's say for a second that there is a God. A christian God. All loving and caring. All being, an omnipotent. God is everywhere, every time. God knows the past and the future. God knows all. God knows that after he created you, that you'd rape that baby when you turn 25. God will let this happen, because God is testing you. You might think it's up to you to decide if God is the one for you, be forgiven by God and eventually end up in heaven. You don't make that decision. God did, when he made you. You're simply living out God's will. A puppet, if you will. Not only do you not truly exist, you have tasks that God orders you to do. Love God. Love God with everything you can. Why? Because that is the only way to make it to heaven. Love him with everything you can. Sounds like God is lonely. Sounds like God is selfish. Everything is about him. Sacrifice you're first born son, so YOU can go to heaven because you listened to the word of God. Are you willing to do so? God loves ruling his people, that's why God made them. For God to toy around with. It's simply an entertainment. We are just Niko in God's Grand Theft Auto. He tells you what you to do, and you have no choice but to obey. You don't make life decisions, you simply live out what God has made for you.

Is this really living?
Why even bother with this whole living thing when for a fact you know it's already predestined?

How shitty.
I would never live in that world.

[jamg]

Let's say for a second that there is a God. A christian God. All loving and caring. All being, an omnipotent. God is everywhere, every time. God knows the past and the future. God knows all. God knows that after he created you, that you'd rape that baby when you turn 25. God will let this happen, because God is testing you. You might think it's up to you to decide if God is the one for you, be forgiven by God and eventually end up in heaven. You don't make that decision. God did, when he made you. You're simply living out God's will. A puppet, if you will. Not only do you not truly exist, you have tasks that God orders you to do. Love God. Love God with everything you can. Why? Because that is the only way to make it to heaven. Love him with everything you can. Sounds like God is lonely. Sounds like God is selfish. Everything is about him. Sacrifice you're first born son, so YOU can go to heaven because you listened to the word of God. Are you willing to do so? God loves ruling his people, that's why God made them. For God to toy around with. It's simply an entertainment. We are just Niko in God's Grand Theft Auto. He tells you what you to do, and you have no choice but to obey. You don't make life decisions, you simply live out what God has made for you.

Is this really living?
Why even bother with this whole living thing when for a fact you know it's already predestined?

How shitty.
I would never live in that world.

God gave us our own free will.

adam made his own choice (after peer pressure) to eat the fruit.

[1Fast80sx]

bible is a joke. i see more religious people do more bad things than people that are atheist.

[Matej]

Faith is the denial of observation, so that belief can be preserved.

[I LUV MY S13]

theres nothing wrong with having a religious faith and believing in science and technology as well....i read the bible, and ima physics major at cal-state full..
very interested in space and believe in the possibility that there are alien lifeform out there..ppl that are religious just tend to neglect technology which imo is stupid..

oh and god doesnt have a scripted future for us..like stated we were given free will..
i do have my doubts in some bible scriptures, and i do think its stupid too sacrifice ur first son to prove ur love i guess..i think its just about finding a meaning to all of it

[dOMEmE]

hehe. i second that

i third it,,,,i posted a thread like this and my shit got locked down in 20 minutes....

[Helghast]

How does God give us free will when God is ALL KNOWING?

God knew Adam would eat that apple.
God knew that if God created Eve, she would tempt Adam to eat that apple.

God knows and sees everything.
EVERYTHING.

Don't you guys love it when people say "It happened for a reason"?

Adam ate that apple "for a reason".
To condemn mankind from the very beginning.
God let it happen.
Why?
It was God's first creation, and God fucked it up.

That man died "for a reason", cause God wanted him.
Took him away from his family and friends cause whatever God wants, God gets.


Shit, praying is one of the worst.

Praying is absurdly useless when it comes to solving anything.
Pray to god you'd be healed.
Uh...go to the doctor.
The doctor's expertise and knowledge will save you, not God.
God is just sitting up there chillin', relaxin', maxin' all cool.

Pffftt..

[1Fast80sx]

i love it when i hear stupid fucking parents on tv that try to heal their kid that is sick by faith healing. then the kid dies. lololololololol. fucking joke.

that alone, proves something.

[janders211]

I have faith in logic, and in the scientific method because I 'believe' that things should follow laws or rules. This is much like those that 'believe' that things are guided by an omniscient presence. We all have beliefs based on nothing.
Basically it comes doen to being a sheep and doing what your parents did for 90% of most people. I will listen 10X more to the Muslim born of Atheist parents, or the Atheist born of a Preacher than I will to a Christian of Christian parents, or an atheist of atheist parents- because at least for the former 2 there was at least a choice/thought proces made.

[98s14inaz]

Feel free to say whatever...
I love to hear different sides..
Please stay on topic..



This is what I believe.

So..we'll start from the beginning.
Past the "Big Bang Theory".

Lucifer didn't want to be "greater" than god.
Lucifer was gods favorite angel in the heavens. He didn't want to be bigger and better than god. He had too much pride. God created him
with power/wisdom/forge/fire. He was the chief of hierarchy in the heavens.

Lucifer refused to bow down to MAN (Adam and Eve) (he felt betrayed by god)

So god casted him out from the heavens.


If god told Adam and Eve that if they ate the forbidden fruit from the tree "you will surely die".

and if the Devil told Eve that if they ate the fruit it would not lead to death.

Now they ate the apple.
And what happened?

They didn't die right away, So neither god or the devil were right.
Technically they didn't die as god said.
Technically they did "live" as the devil said.

I see it as:
Man on earth is a battle between god and the devil over humanity.

but who do we choose from if they were both right?

I choose to live life as it comes by. I believe in what I see with my own eyes and not by what I hear.
Science...

The knowledge of good and evil came at a price and at that very moment they began dying. Man was made in the image of God and practically immortal before that point. Look at the life spans and how they have decreased ever since Genesis. At least that is the way I interpreted it. I do like you take on Lucifer. I don't really blame him for getting pissed.

[98s14inaz]

How does God give us free will when God is ALL KNOWING?

God knew Adam would eat that apple.
God knew that if God created Eve, she would tempt Adam to eat that apple.

God knows and sees everything.
EVERYTHING.

Don't you guys love it when people say "It happened for a reason"?

Adam ate that apple "for a reason".
To condemn mankind from the very beginning.
God let it happen.
Why?
It was God's first creation, and God fucked it up.

That man died "for a reason", cause God wanted him.
Took him away from his family and friends cause whatever God wants, God gets.


Shit, praying is one of the worst.

Praying is absurdly useless when it comes to solving anything.
Pray to god you'd be healed.
Uh...go to the doctor.
The doctor's expertise and knowledge will save you, not God.
God is just sitting up there chillin', relaxin', maxin' all cool.

Pffftt..

Circular logic FTL. If God knows all then why did he even bother with us?

[SochBAT]

Circular logic FTL. If God knows all then why did he even bother with us?

Why do you live life, knowing that you will eventually die?

Because YOU FUCKING CAN.

Why does God do it?

http://img373.yfrog.com/img373/8797/batgod.jpg

[hopeless.s13]

why can't anyone spell in this thread? i hate spelling errors, it just makes everyone sound ingnorant... just goes to show how education goes today... to the philosophy major who said grammar is an assumption: i disagree, proper grammar is the knowledge of our spoken and written language, (which is an established concept) misuse of it only means the lack of knowledge in it (not trying to hate, its just my rebuttal to your statement)
ANYWAYS digressing....

one thing i would like to mention quickly: science is seldom rational. Anyone who has studied quantum physics has an idea of what i'm talking about - the further you break things apart, the more chaotic and unpredictable they become.
and im not a physics major, i simply like to read and educate myself (day'n'nite)

in any case, if you're looking for a rational take on faith....
C.S. Lewis pretty much nails the logic+God capacity. For anyone who thinks he was merely a fictional author who wrote Narnia+others - he is actually a brilliant thinker, who became a 'christian' after years and years of study and logical reasoning... and in turn wrote several books about it, including "mere christianity" which i am currently reading.

the reason i used 'christian' in quotes for the above paragraph, is because i think the word 'religion' has been overly saturated into our brains, and we have our silly assumptions about it.
truly, anyone one calls themself 'christian' should be able to accept the fact that the religion itself takes you NOWHERE and the concept of christianity is, in reality, the following of Christ.

...which means, yes, independent of your religious denomination, you can get to heaven.
i get to this point from words of Jesus, when he says that "no one comes to the father [God] except through me"
so basically, that statement strips away any concept of religious affiliations, because being a 'christian' means being a Christ-follower; quite simple in essence, but as anything we have control over (politics as well) it has been warped and usurped to benefit the fortunate few who have power

that being said, yes, any 'christian' who believes in the teachings of christianity/the bible should accept that even a buddhist, if he believes in the teachings of christ, may enter the kingdom, because that was the whole point, really, to make it simple and easy for anyone.

...im going to split this post to make it easier to read

[hopeless.s13]

now, im going to say that most of the things im writing are not meant to be condescending/improper, and they are my honest opinion. those who feel themselves threatened need not to curse and beg for the thread to be closed, simply come up with counter arguments instead.

im a pretty open minded guy. promise. except when it comes to mormons and scientologists. im sorry but its just silliness. lol everyone needs to see the south park on mormons, its pretty hilarious
seriously tho, if there are any mormons here, come at me, i want to hear all

anyyywayys, back to what i was saying

i think that a lot of what God does and did, has to do with the nature of man. In order for things to work deep inside of us, it takes repetition for learning, whether we are dealing with the physical, or the psychological (working out, learning a language, you name it)

what i find interesting though, is that so much that is in the bible becomes such a strong symbol: Jesus being crucified on the cross, what if he was just beheaded? how would you wear a necklace of that? haha.

the point is, human emotions are touched deeper through symbols. and if you take that idea and apply it to the question of why God created us, and wants us to worship him, i think its sort of like a father/son relationship. perhaps he was lonely? i dont know. but i think in the end he just wants us to love him as he loves us.

and again, with symbolism in mind:
if God knew that all this was going to happen why did he do it?
well my take on this is directly applied to ourselves.
obviously, God himself, being God, would have no need to go through any of it. but maybe its just a preparation for US. you see what i mean? he did it so that we could see and understand for ourselves what is out there, how lost we are without him, and how loving he is. otherwise we may not value him at all? its interesting to consider it. what is love without sacrifice?
all things being said, i think we are in this to prepare for something far greater, and God wanted us to experience this first, and have an idea of what's going before we even have a glimpse of "the outside"

....or you can look at the father/son concept again. perhaps its a filtering system: since God gives us free will, given the choice some will not love him at all, and will not hear his call. now, it is not his personality to drag his sons along wherever he goes, and the lost ones end up in satan's hands because they rejected the father. possible?
i dont think God created hell. i cant remember ever reading that in the bible, however i am not that knowledgeable anyway. but i think its really the eternal separation from God.

ideas please

[I LUV MY S13]

wise words^^

whether its science or religion ppl have faith in it..faith that god exists, we evolved, christ as our savior, the big bang theory...
and both science and religion eventually have an absolute, a always was..
my question is in the evolutionist stand point wat is the absolute?

[Matej]

Life is full of mystery, yes.

And every mystery, ever solved, has turned out to not be magic/supernatural.

[I LUV MY S13]

^is that a proven fact?

[ESmorz]

why can't anyone spell in this thread? i hate spelling errors, it just makes everyone sound ingnorant...

Seriously, I hate sounding ingnorant.

[I LUV MY S13]

dang and here i am thinking its ignorant

[hopeless.s13]

i'm always stumped when it comes to thought and memory.
think about this:

how can thought exist without language? does not every thought you create come to you in the form of words? (save the few moments where you see pictures, even they are combined with words)
i find it impossible to develop thought apart from language, and the only explanation (to me) is someone having to teach us at some point in time

but the really weird thing is memory. what the hell is memory? we have no means to measure, extract, construct, or touch memory. We can fiddle with memory receptors in the brain, but the results are pretty weak. we can seemingly store infinite amounts of infomation, yet we have no means of understanding how. the very cognescenti of science cannot properly deal with it.

^^^ im going to write up my feeble thoughts on evolution in a sec

[hopeless.s13]

Seriously, I hate sounding ingnorant.


its a pet peeve, i can't help it


EDIT: it was a typo ok lol call me the hypocrite now

[Matej]

we can seemingly store infinite amounts of infomation, yet we have no means of understanding how. the very cognescenti of science cannot properly deal with it.
http://babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/memory2.jpg

[I LUV MY S13]

why can't anyone spell in this thread? i hate spelling errors, it just makes everyone sound ingnorant...

Seriously, I hate sounding ingnorant.

its a pet peeve, i can't help it

u spelled it wrong..its ignorant

[hopeless.s13]

and about evolution...
of course its really hard for people to agree on anything regarding evolution, because its pretty much accepted as fact today. What you get is people who are taught in school that "its a proven fact" on one side and other people who are taught in church that "God created everything" on the other side.
...the only truth we can confirm to date is that it is still a theory along with most of our "known" science.

the hard part about the theory of evolution is that you can't just plug some formulas into an equation and come out with a good answer. (though even newton's laws of physics fall apart and become useless at the hands of quantum physics)

my personal view is this:
i cannot believe in the traditional orthodox idea of evolution. i will discuss my reasoning in a second. What i do believe in is what i call adaptational evolution (im sure there is a proper term that i am not aware of)
what i mean is that i believe that creatures can change and adapt based on their surroundings as well as threatening situations in their lifetimes, whithin their species. this is something we can test and observe, for example, certain plants that evolve to live with less sunlight, or wild dogs in the arctic having a thicker fur than a wild dog in the south american continents.

i do not believe, however, that a man can come from a chimpanzee (or even an orangutan, as recent findings have been discussed as to which ape is the closest primate)
My main reasoning behind this is that for one, there is simply no empirical evidence of this, so its hard for me to believe.

I find it hard to believe, because, in the long run, the idea behind evolution is to go from a faulty organism who cannot fend for himself, to a complex and perfect organism that can survive in the wild, in order to perpetuate its species.
it makes sense if you think of Ape>Human.
but it does not make sense if you think back from the very beginning.

first. why arent we asexual? if we want to propagate the species, there is clearly no need for gender. unless the purpose was to get frisky after all.

second. since we are coming from single-celled organisms, and are eventually going to develop sexes, how in the world, considering all of the different variables in place and all the different conditions that exist, how would it EVER have been possible that 2 different creatures developed closely enough in order to be able to mate? again, evolution's purpose is survival.

third, why don't we have HUGE fricking fists. we obviously use them in combat (survival) so i don't see why we developed brains rather than spikes and tails and more effective 'bodily weapons' against wild beasts.
or even, why would chimps become homo-sapiens instead of following the gorilla route and becoming like king kong/fighting t-rex

...and there are plenty of other silly things that i think of. i question everything. i mean it. EVERYTHING. i question my faith every single night, in order to search for answers that other people can't answer.
but i dont hear anyone who has already been taught evolution questioning their belief in it.
(i'm not saying i'm better than you because you believe in evolution, you can believe in whatever, blah blah blah, im just saying that everyone, faithful/unfaithful, should come to their own conclusions, and this is mine)

[hopeless.s13]

^^^ that was way too long. im done with this. haha.

[ESmorz]

^^^ that was way too long. im done with this. haha.

Thank god.

[Agamemnon]

how can thought exist without language? does not every thought you create come to you in the form of words?

Then how does a deaf person, someone born without hearing have thought? Would said person see sign language everytime they had a thought?

[Agamemnon]

^is that a proven fact?

Yes. If it has been proven, then it must be fact.

[FrankDukes]

Here's the truth, but I could be wrong.

1. People make up God(s) to try to explain what they don't understand. FACT. IE: Greek Gods, Roman Gods, Jebus, and so on through out history, in every nation/country there is a "God" or an unlogical explanation for why and what things are. Nothing is fact and some are just outrageous.

2. People are curious mammals that can reason and want "Truth and Explanation" to satisfy their curiosity. People want to make "meaning" out of their lives and some people can't stand the fact that maybe life is just life, it is what it is. Some people see life as trying to find the truth, the complete understanding of why Ferrari or a "Skyline GTR" works and such, while some people see them as just a car and who cares about WHY or WHAT it is, it's Fast and fun and maybe there shouldn't be an explanation, "Just leave it as is.." Enjoy life as you would driving a Ferrari or a GTR, don't get too techical and try to figure it out.

3. People are afraid of dying. They want to created meaning and hypothesize about the after life to "hype" it up so the Story doesn't end. No one has seen the after life nor came back with souvenirs...so people are just yapping about something they've never seen nor been too. People need explanation, people need to know what is in that unmarked box sitting over there....

4. Every believes in some sort of God, some believe it mere images of him (Prophets), some believe Cows have reincarnated spirits of people, some believe the Wind and Suns are Gods. SO there are a few possibilities for the existence of GOD:

A. One Group of people are correct about the truth of "GOD" and everyone else is wrong. (We must understand the definition of what classifies something to be a "GOD" is a Cow a God? Does a GOD have to do something "Miraculous"? What constitute a God?

B. Everyone is Wrong and there isn't any "God(s)" and we're all mistaken. IE: People are Humans and humans make mistakes all the time, could we all be mistaken?

YES, we once believed that the world was Flat and we can still debate the world is round. This is not to say God and Flatness of the world is the same, but the concept that all humans can be wrong or mistaken is possible and in history it proves so.

C. We can't all be right. There is no way that if we have these opposite premises:

1. God Exist
2. God Doesn't exit
3. Jesus is God
4. Muhammed is god
5. Buddah is God
6. Genesh is God
7. Apollo is God.

There isn't a possible sense if we can all be "Right" at the same time. That doesn't obtain logical sense, and defies reason it self. So there is no possible way one can say, "It's relative, what ever you BELIEVE is truth will be the truth." NOPE, Belief and Truth are independent of each other. If you BELIEVE 240SX are the best cars if the world (Which I do as well) it's may or may be not what the truth is. It's a Faith, a Belief, and the truth is beyond God.

If you find out that there wasn't a God, would you go out and kill your friends or kill babies for fun? Nope, that's the entire conceptual truth. You would still know right and wrong even if it was the case.

That's my truth, but I could be wrong....I could be right.
But I am certain I will never Say that I am 100% sure that God is Real or 100% certain She doesn't exist. That's my truth, it doesn't involve weird rituals and going to a building once a week, or unicorns and people walking on water and beings with 8 arms. I am not curious and I question about everything my parents say, my teachers say, and Humans say to me and tells me that it is truth.

I used to be Catholic, until I learned to use my brain over my feelings.

It is ridiculous for people to say:
* I am 100% sure there is a God *
* I am 100% sure there is not a God*

when we don't even know how many planets and stars there are or how many species of fish is in the ocean..That's just a very bold statement to say Truth is Truth, we you don't even know what Truth is. Some of us don't even know "WHY OUR KA24DE AND SR20 is running so bad" and we're certain about the existence of GOD??

[drftmark]

Here's the truth, but I could be wrong.

So there is no possible way one can say, "It's relative, what ever you BELIEVE is truth will be the truth." NOPE, Belief and Truth are independent of each other. If you BELIEVE 240SX are the best cars if the world (Which I do as well) it's may or may be not what the truth is. It's a Faith, a Belief, and the truth is beyond God.



I would say Christian's belief and truth are related. The battle would ultimately come down to one's definition of truth/absolute truth.

A Bible following Christian's definition of truth:
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life...

so they believe that it is truth.

like how belief + truth = belieftruth

1+1=2

[DrtyRat]

..................................................
You could've just said that you are clueless and saved yourself a worthless post. I mean come on, "I don't believe 100% there is a God/I don't believe 100% God isn't real." I hate to come of like a jerk(and I'm honestly not trying to be), but at least make a stand, one way or the other. I've made my beliefs known, earlier in this thread, as I am a Christian.

[hopeless.s13]

Then how does a deaf person, someone born without hearing have thought? Would said person see sign language everytime they had a thought?

thats a pretty good point. they must have a completely different set of interpretations of letter sounds. because they wouldnt be able to tell that an 'f' sounds to us as 'eff' etc...
who knows. they must be the true out of the box thinkers

[I LUV MY S13]

Yes. If it has been proven, then it must be fact.

so u are honestly 100% posotive that all of lifes mysteries had completely nothing to do with any supernatural events....

wow u must kno it all

[I LUV MY S13]

Here's the truth, but I could be wrong.

1. People make up God(s) to try to explain what they don't understand. FACT. IE: Greek Gods, Roman Gods, Jebus, and so on through out history, in every nation/country there is a "God" or an unlogical explanation for why and what things are. Nothing is fact and some are just outrageous.

2. People are curious mammals that can reason and want "Truth and Explanation" to satisfy their curiosity. People want to make "meaning" out of their lives and some people can't stand the fact that maybe life is just life, it is what it is. Some people see life as trying to find the truth, the complete understanding of why Ferrari or a "Skyline GTR" works and such, while some people see them as just a car and who cares about WHY or WHAT it is, it's Fast and fun and maybe there shouldn't be an explanation, "Just leave it as is.." Enjoy life as you would driving a Ferrari or a GTR, don't get too techical and try to figure it out.

3. People are afraid of dying. They want to created meaning and hypothesize about the after life to "hype" it up so the Story doesn't end. No one has seen the after life nor came back with souvenirs...so people are just yapping about something they've never seen nor been too. People need explanation, people need to know what is in that unmarked box sitting over there....

4. Every believes in some sort of God, some believe it mere images of him (Prophets), some believe Cows have reincarnated spirits of people, some believe the Wind and Suns are Gods. SO there are a few possibilities for the existence of GOD:

A. One Group of people are correct about the truth of "GOD" and everyone else is wrong. (We must understand the definition of what classifies something to be a "GOD" is a Cow a God? Does a GOD have to do something "Miraculous"? What constitute a God?

B. Everyone is Wrong and there isn't any "God(s)" and we're all mistaken. IE: People are Humans and humans make mistakes all the time, could we all be mistaken?

YES, we once believed that the world was Flat and we can still debate the world is round. This is not to say God and Flatness of the world is the same, but the concept that all humans can be wrong or mistaken is possible and in history it proves so.

C. We can't all be right. There is no way that if we have these opposite premises:

1. God Exist
2. God Doesn't exit
3. Jesus is God
4. Muhammed is god
5. Buddah is God
6. Genesh is God
7. Apollo is God.

There isn't a possible sense if we can all be "Right" at the same time. That doesn't obtain logical sense, and defies reason it self. So there is no possible way one can say, "It's relative, what ever you BELIEVE is truth will be the truth." NOPE, Belief and Truth are independent of each other. If you BELIEVE 240SX are the best cars if the world (Which I do as well) it's may or may be not what the truth is. It's a Faith, a Belief, and the truth is beyond God.

If you find out that there wasn't a God, would you go out and kill your friends or kill babies for fun? Nope, that's the entire conceptual truth. You would still know right and wrong even if it was the case.

That's my truth, but I could be wrong....I could be right.
But I am certain I will never Say that I am 100% sure that God is Real or 100% certain She doesn't exist. That's my truth, it doesn't involve weird rituals and going to a building once a week, or unicorns and people walking on water and beings with 8 arms. I am not curious and I question about everything my parents say, my teachers say, and Humans say to me and tells me that it is truth.

I used to be Catholic, until I learned to use my brain over my feelings.

It is ridiculous for people to say:
* I am 100% sure there is a God *
* I am 100% sure there is not a God*

when we don't even know how many planets and stars there are or how many species of fish is in the ocean..That's just a very bold statement to say Truth is Truth, we you don't even know what Truth is. Some of us don't even know "WHY OUR KA24DE AND SR20 is running so bad" and we're certain about the existence of GOD??

yea.....ok:angel:

u point me in the direction of somebody that says they are 100% posotive that god exists and i'll smack em for u...

i believe in god..but im not 100% sure he exist...no one is..its stoopid to say u kno he certainly exists cuz no one really does kno..same goes for evolution.. u cant say ur 100% sure we evolved cuz no one really knos either...like i said before..

its all faith

[drftmark]

thats a pretty good point. they must have a completely different set of interpretations of letter sounds. because they wouldnt be able to tell that an 'f' sounds to us as 'eff' etc...
who knows. they must be the true out of the box thinkers

just because someone is deaf does not mean they are out of the box thinkers.

deaf people can learn to speak.

[Agamemnon]

so u are honestly 100% posotive that all of lifes mysteries had completely nothing to do with any supernatural events....

wow u must kno it all

That's not what is being presented. It was said that all of lifes mysteries that have been solved were proven to be resolved due to science. The scientific method is based upon the factual evidence provided.

I am 100% positive that the current mysteries that have been proven by science have not been due to supernatural causes, because science has dispelled those causes.

[drftmark]

That's not what is being presented. It was said that all of lifes mysteries that have been solved were proven to be resolved due to science. The scientific method is based upon the factual evidence provided.

I am 100% positive that the current mysteries that have been proven by science have not been due to supernatural causes, because science has dispelled those causes.

I am not to religious, but,

Could some of those mysteries be proven with lack of evidence?

Clearly stated:

What if the scientific method's factual base/evidence to dispell a case, was based upon the lack of evidence. Then how can that be 100% positive?

[Matej]

Could some of those mysteries be proven with lack of evidence?
While yes, I have thought of that as an argument, if we looked that way at any mystery and gave up so easily, none of them would ever get solved. The key is persistence.

I believe that the only reason something cannot be explained is because humans do not have the capability to study and understand it yet. Just because we may not understand something in present time, it does not mean there is not an explanation for it. Just think of all the things that were considered to be an act of God 400 years ago, that are now common knowledge. And the truth is, many mysteries will never be solved as they remain buried in the depths of time, such as all the details of evolution, which people seem to love to argue. That is, of course, unless science ever gives us a means to somehow look through time into the past.

What I find silly is how religions suddenly say that it is now alright to accept a previously controversial issue as truth, only because it cannot be denied any longer. Anything to keep followers I guess. Galileo was persecuted by the Church for publicly supporting Copernicus's theory of a heliocentric universe, which today is taken as fact, even by religions. Last time I checked, it is now alright to believe in dinosaurs as well. The best thing about it is how the religion's explanations for these newly accepted concepts just keep getting more and more complicated and amazing.

Religions have been the cause of birth to the richest and scariest organizations in the history of mankind, which in turn took over and manipulated the teachings to their own advantage. Many times, these organizations seem to work on a 'do as I say, not as I do' basis. This last paragraph brings me to admitting that I actually have no problem with anyone being religious and believing what they want in the privacy of their home. If praying before bed makes you feel better, or if the idea of a higher power helps you deal with problems, I would be a jerk if I wanted to take that away from you. Basically, what I dislike is how big of an influence organized religion has on society.

[dOMEmE]

this isnt going to get no one no where.....close this pointless thread down please.:lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd:: lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::l ockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lo ckd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::lockd::loc kd::lockd:

[KasperSlide]

look up zeitgeist.....nuf said

ever since there's been one true god there has been war in his name.
forgot where that was from a movie i know that much. cant remember what movie though

[Grendel]

This thread is...interesting.

I was raised a Christian, but once I was old enough to be a skeptic I was never 100% sure about it. I believe in Evolution now, but I have no idea if there is a god or not.

I think organized religion was a good way for the kings back in the day to keep their subjects working hard and staying obedient. If you threaten someone with jailtime, they might not care, but you tell them they are going to burn in some lake of fire for eternity... well they might listen to your rules then. Also tell them suicide sends them straight to hell, and you have a loyal obedient worker from birth until he dies at 30.

My biggest question now is where does concious thought come from? Does my personality/outlook on the world come from random signals in my brain, or is there something higher? I really have no idea, but I like thinking about it.

For any of you that are very religious, buy an eighth of mushrooms and eat them by yourself. After you see how convincing a hallucination can be, try to re-examine your entire outlook on life.

[I LUV MY S13]

That's not what is being presented. It was said that all of lifes mysteries that have been solved were proven to be resolved due to science. The scientific method is based upon the factual evidence provided.

I am 100% positive that the current mysteries that have been proven by science have not been due to supernatural causes, because science has dispelled those causes.

it didnt say anything about science..hasnt science ever been wrong? how do you kno science is wat its said to be? we talk about cells, atoms, evolution, big bang....but none of us have ever actually seen it in person,felt it, smelt it, or experienced it..

ppl say they only believe in wat is seen or presented in front of them, u cant see an atom, air, or the chromozones of a single-celled organism..but u choose to believe in it..

all im sayin is everything in life is based on faith..sum place it on religion, some choose evolution...to each his own

[joshchewuhh]

alright heres my thoughts.

god created everything that exists according to the bible.

then why did he make the universe so damned big? for what reasons?

makes me think that god made more "followers" else where across the galaxy


maybe life is just one big coincidence where series of events just happened to come together to form life.


besides there are so many damned religions whos to say which is right and which is wrong?

where do animals go when they die?


what about someone who grew up in the amazon and didnt even know about god does he go to hell cause no one told him about religion?


bs to me

my 2 cents

[Teddy]

I was born "Catholic" and baptized.






I do not believe in religion. It starts wars, creates hate, and makes the world dumber.

Considerably dumber.

[ESmorz]

it didnt say anything about science..hasnt science ever been wrong? how do you kno science is wat its said to be? we talk about cells...but none of us have ever actually seen it in person,felt it, smelt it, or experienced it..

I paid attention in bio. I have seen cells. My own cells even.

Blow your mind with a microscope.

[Agamemnon]

it didnt say anything about science..hasnt science ever been wrong? how do you kno science is wat its said to be? we talk about cells, atoms, evolution, big bang....but none of us have ever actually seen it in person,felt it, smelt it, or experienced it..

ppl say they only believe in wat is seen or presented in front of them, u cant see an atom, air, or the chromozones of a single-celled organism..but u choose to believe in it..

all im sayin is everything in life is based on faith..sum place it on religion, some choose evolution...to each his own

What the hell are you talking about? Cells, atoms, air, chromozomes, etc have all been proven and observed. They exist. Spend $20 and go get a microsope and find out. What, do you think some people had some drinks in a lab one day and started making this shit up?

Also, no REAL scientist will ever claim that the Big Bang and Evolution are facts, just theories. They cant be proven without a shadow of a doubt.

[aa87]

Yeah, all these things have been not only observed, but manipulated.

Haha, you can live your life on faith, hope and pray.

Or you can open your eyes and take in what's really in front of you.

Science theory vs fact- they can be disproven, but to be considered a theory in science it had to be tested rigorously and has in fact come out conclusively many times.

Theory of Gravity - only a theory. One day we might just start floating ( maybe to the heavens )?

This is just the way i live my life. If theres anything out there more powerful then us, then were certainly too small and miniscule to comprehend it, let alone were likely just a random quark in the everexpansive universe.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

The problem with religion is it has caused more death in the history of mankind. It's supposed to be good and enrich people's lives but wars are waged and people die over something as stupid as religion.
If people started painting with a much broader brush instead of arguing what the deciples name is then the world would be better.

[victorw210]

Christians deny evolution and there basis is life is to complicated to happen by chance so it must be intelligent design.

basically there saying i dont understand it therefore its magic!!! and there cant possibly be any other explanation

[VROOOM]

The problem with religion is it has caused more death in the history of mankind. It's supposed to be good and enrich people's lives but wars are waged and people die over something as stupid as religion.
If people started painting with a much broader brush instead of arguing what the deciples name is then the world would be better.

think like me or die!!!!!

[Bubbles]

Christians deny evolution and there basis is life is to complicated to happen by chance so it must be intelligent design.

basically there saying i dont understand it therefore its magic!!! and there cant possibly be any other explanation


Your time in high school would have been better spent listening to the English teacher rather than generalizing people and prophesying your ideas.

[NismOkatFreaK]

Listen to Rakims song THE MYSTERY, tight song about God and science. People who think we came from from nothing will be nothing in the end, so if you dont find God before your times up your just screwing yourself No one else. No where does it say punishment for believing in GOD so why even chance somthing that sounds like hell, i would rather be wrong and nothing happen then wake up in hell after god turns my ass down!!!

[Agamemnon]

Listen to Rakims song THE MYSTERY, tight song about God and science. People who think we came from from nothing will be nothing in the end, so if you dont find God before your times up your just screwing yourself No one else. No where does it say punishment for believing in GOD so why even chance somthing that sounds like hell, i would rather be wrong and nothing happen then wake up in hell after god turns my ass down!!!

Because some people dont feel they should follow something so blindly.

[FrankDukes]

I would say Christian's belief and truth are related. The battle would ultimately come down to one's definition of truth/absolute truth.

A Bible following Christian's definition of truth:
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life...

so they believe that it is truth.

like how belief + truth = belieftruth

1+1=2

So, one who believes in Atheism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and non Christians and his definitition of Truth and Absolute Truth is incorrect, according to your logic.

So, what you're saying is that All Christians do just and their truth outweighs the rest of the world because the rest of the world is wrong.

Did you know that there are such things as bad and evil "Christians". It's amazing how people turn to religion when they are scared and afraid as those in Prison are.

So a Christians point of view, a BIBLE FEARING PERSON such as that of a Priest or reverand who "touch" alter boys are Truth. I can surely understand the concrete truth there.

That is your logic.

And I just showed you there, that your logic has a hole in it.


You could've just said that you are clueless and saved yourself a worthless post. I mean come on, "I don't believe 100% there is a God/I don't believe 100% God isn't real." I hate to come of like a jerk(and I'm honestly not trying to be), but at least make a stand, one way or the other. I've made my beliefs known, earlier in this thread, as I am a Christian.

yea.....ok:angel:

No, that's being honest. If I don't know the answer I just say "I don't know."

I think I am not the one who is clueless and you're just impossing your religion on my and telling me it is the right way. I have no fundamental "side" to the argument and already you say I am clueless. Unlike yourself, I can see both sides first, then make my decision, and not follow what society has molded you to believe. One side is saying Black and the other is saying White....Maybe I don't like those options... Maybe I don't like those shades, mabye my truth and my car should be Gunmetal. Maybe black and or white is wrong, mabye Gunmetal is balling. Maybe just maybe...


If I had chosen a side such as "Islam", then I would say that you're wrong and clueless about the truth. And IF I did that, one of us is wrong, because Jebus and Muhammed can't be the same prophets.

YOUR point of view is like those who talk about a 2000hp NISSAN SKYLINE GT-R and are so certain about how they work, about what it feels like to drive one, what they can do, BUT never even sat in one.

MY point of view is like those who talk about a 2000hp NISSAN Skyline GTR and appreciates the idea, BUT I don't have a point of view about the performance nor have such strong oppinions because I have not driven it.

How have such 100% certainty about something they never experience and ONLY hear and influence by WORD of mouth (Parents, friends, teachers, etc.)

If you were born into Christianity most likely you would defend it, If you're born Asian, Black, Hispanic you would most likely have confidence and identity in it, if you were born Buddhist and or Islam you would follow the same beliefs people have Formed you into beliveing.

[quote]
u point me in the direction of somebody that says they are 100% posotive that god exists and i'll smack em for u...

i believe in god..but im not 100% sure he exist...no one is..its stoopid to say u kno he certainly exists cuz no one really does kno..same goes for evolution.. u cant say ur 100% sure we evolved cuz no one really knos either...like i said before..

its all faith

By saying this you do understand there isn't a 100% certainty. Believe and Faith may guide you to the truth BUT I am implying that the Truth isn't aways what you believe.

Example:
"You can believe in a flying elephant = Truth? No
"You can have faith that the lakers will win next year= Truth? Possibly not certain."
"You can have enlightened trust that God does exist= Truth? Who knows.

[hopeless.s13]

The problem with religion is it has caused more death in the history of mankind. It's supposed to be good and enrich people's lives but wars are waged and people die over something as stupid as religion.
If people started painting with a much broader brush instead of arguing what the deciples name is then the world would be better.


i find this view interesting because its really not a question of religion leads to violence,
rather,
as all things that can bear significance in a person's heart, there is an unfortunate side of it where you get extremists and fanatics. These are the truly dangerous people, however, it applies to religion just as much as it does to politics, hence the cult of personality. as well all know, hitler was supported by the majority in germany before WWII

of course its not justified. the only time religious warfare is justified was during the crusades (no need for detail) and with extreme fundamental islamists.

NOW, as far as islam goes, im sorry to say but thats a pretty dangerous religion. (IMO?) Because as much as they would like to say it isnt, the koran is full of mandates to kill.
as well as this one quote by mohammad which i find funny:
"for i have seen the hellfires! and that most of its dwellers are women!"
lol at that. haha.

in any case, christianity/catholicism/mormonism/hinduism/buddhism are all religions of peace. and those are explicit commands, most often things are taken out of context and thrown around

[drftmark]

So, one who believes in Atheism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and non Christians and his definitition of Truth and Absolute Truth is incorrect, according to your logic.

So, what you're saying is that All Christians do just and their truth outweighs the rest of the world because the rest of the world is wrong.

Did you know that there are such things as bad and evil "Christians". It's amazing how people turn to religion when they are scared and afraid as those in Prison are.

So a Christians point of view, a BIBLE FEARING PERSON such as that of a Priest or reverand who "touch" alter boys are Truth. I can surely understand the concrete truth there.

That is your logic.

And I just showed you there, that your logic has a hole in it.


That is not MY logic, it is a Bible following Christian's logic. I made that post to SHOW THERE IS A HOLE IN THAT LOGIC.

Thanks for elaborating and reproving my point though.


Humanity's a failed experiment
Walking the path to extinction
Blindly consuming mass manufactured faith

[FrankDukes]

That is not MY logic, it is a Bible following Christian's logic. I made that post to SHOW THERE IS A HOLE IN THAT LOGIC.

Thanks for elaborating and reproving my point though.
No problem. But this religion thread won't sway many people from their own "beliefs".

Even if the facts come out...as humans, many of us won't accept it. Like when someone said "the Earth is Round, and not flat." Many people didn't believe and tried to kill such outlandish "rebels". It is only if you're willing to find out and accept the TRUTH, regardless of what you believe and are willing to even go against what you've been taught and once believe was true, then you're ready for the truth.

If one is always adamant about his or her own believe with 100% certainty, he/she shall always be blinded and not ready for the truth.

And that is why I say, This is truth but I may be wrong. This makes sense because Truth like all things may not be constant. Once the Earth was flat, now it's round, and who's to say that one day we find out that there is a 4th or 10th dimension that altered our views and the Earth was really Elipse in shape.

Who's to say that Jebus, Buddah, and Ganesh were not real, maybe they were well respected people who were "kings of kings" and had such great characteristics so that they are role models for us.

But sadly, unlike many of you, I don't have much faith. I don't believe in Ghosts or supernatural events, and I've never experienced nor witness such miracles and devine intervention. I don't think the world is going to end in 2012 either, nor did I on December 31st, 1999.

If you believe in the Bible and that God walked on water, Jonah lived in a fish/whale, a virgin woman giving birth, a garden of Eden and an evil snake tempting the first man and woman to eat a snake, that's fine with me.

If you believe that Muhammed came down ...
If you believe a rich prince Siddhartha Gautama went into meditation and achived enlightenment, that's fine with me to.

Just don't tell me eveything you do is right because you Believe in GOD.

Arguement:

Premise 1: People/Humans make mistakes/errors/fallacies
Premise 2: People/Humans believe in Religion
Premise 3: People who make mistakes/errors/fallacies can also be people who believe in religion.
Premise 4: people who believe in religion, make mistakes/errors/fallacies.

Conclusion: Belief doesn't always mean that you're right. You make mistakes all the time, so to say that you're right because you believe isn't very valid.

"What if I am right and God does exist?"
Answer: Well, good for you...that doesn't mean you're going to heaven either, God will Judge you as well as me, so don't be to confident that if you "believe" you will still go to heaven. You could be an A-hole Christian and God don't like that.

"What if I am right and God does not exist?"
Answer: Well, I guess I wasted all my Sundays and reading a book written by the author of Harry Potter when I should have just watched T.V. and drifted, had premarrital sex, and used a bunch of drugs, and stole a Skyline GTR.

YOU DON'T NEED RELIGION TO BE NICE AND LOVING TO OTHERS. "JUST DON'T MESS WITH OTHER PEOPLE." Plain and simple. You don't need to go to a Building every week to know that. Organized religion is run by HUMANS and it's all politics anyway, these people preach B.S. and are corrupted.

If you're going to believe, Believe in GOD, not organized groups of power hungry posers.

[dOMEmE]

and why havent the mods closed this yet???..........thats what blows my mind.....

[JesusFreakDrifter]

the thing i dont like about "religions" such as islam/judaism(ugh no offense)/christianity or the separation, is pretty much the denominations of which, sephardic and non sephardic jews, baptists, evangelicals, catholics, lutherans, etc/ hamas, nation of islam, watever; im just sayin,i feel as if the human element is wat corrupted true "religion," and i use that word rather loosely because after i studied many different religions such as buddhism, which is pretty much a lifestyle rather than a religion, i notice how we can get so caught up in changing people with our own views of ones history and greed....what i mean is a lot of different peoples believe in a creation epic, which is definitely cclose to the bibles rendition of the creation epic....there is a tribe in ruanda, that says they have the exact creation epic...however us, as the "civilized" elitist capitilist whoremongers that we are, we would shun such notion as far as believing that anything beyond the bible or the qu'ran, or scriptures is devils work or otherwise...the egyptian book of the dead, was said to be taken and plagiarized by the bible and vice versa, so one thing i can hold as fact is history....true history, not the half assed, mental slave history, that was spoon fed to everyone, because not many people can read the original hebrew to translate the scriptures for themselves, on top of the fact that there are many books taken out of the bible that keep are in accordance with relevance and provides logical explanations to such stories, such as noah's ark, the fallen angels, the devils...everything....the people who hold such information would have hell to pay for allowing the mass public to view it on top of which, it would expose them for who they are....(hopefully i haven't lost anyone), yes, i agree that man will never know everything, but wat i have come to understand somewat in my short time here on earth, is that there are millions of galaxies, and prolly even more universes, no has seen heaven or god, but whoever created all this, that is beyond our earth, galaxy, universe, has to be great, the greatest...and if we understand that and that is our true direction for living a decent, conscientious righteous life, then who am i to go and push bible on them, or watever, i'll be the change i want to see in the world and in turn someone will notice and change as well....it happens all the time....if u wanna talk more pm me,,,even tho u can just comment here, i may not believe wat u believe in....

believe me what i tell you, when i say "jesusfreakdrifter" i really mean yahoshua freak drifter lol

[ESmorz]

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