SR rebuild Issues

[Gjohnson7]

Alright fellas. I have an issue. My build just hit a brick wall. I'm looking for ideas and opinions now.

My engines at the shop and they have started the cleaning process and work on the new crank, but here's the deal now. The Head is crap. I need new valves, springs, valve guides and keepers. I was planning an OEM build and contacted my parts guy at Southpointe in Austin Texas and most of those parts are JDM only. He said they would have to source them and they could take anywhere from 3 weeks to 3 months or more to come in.

Not only that but the extra head parts would put the rebuild in the area of $2000 (hopefully, that's if I go ARP headstuds and Cometic headgasket).

So, what should I do?? Should I just pick up another SR swap, and have extra parts. Should I say screw it, and scrap the project all together and go pick up a WRX? Or should I spend the money and wait 3 months or more to do the stock rebuild?

I though about just picking up another head, but what if its crap too?

Now keep in mind that I'm located in Oklahoma and can't drive down the street and check out a few SR's at the local performance shop. Anything I buy will pretty much be sight unseen.

[Adam496]

Why not get a new long block, and scrap/build your other engine?

[garagelu]

If I were you I would just go buy a replacement long block. If you are interested I have a long block that I am going to put on ebay in about two weeks. When I initially bought my sr20det front clip, I bought a long block as a backup. I bought it from a really good friend so I know its a good engine. Email me at [email protected] if you are interested.

[Gjohnson7]

I've heard it's pretty hard to find a long block. How much would just the long block run??

garagelu, I'll send you a email in moment.

[lazierhobo]

dont believe this guy, getting parts shouldnt take that long, and you dont have to get JDM parts. when sourcing stuff i got mohle pistons, scat rods. both available in us. can get all the stuff for the valve train from supercomp. you can get any number of parts for this engine in the US. maybe you need to find a more specialized shop to rebuild your engine.

[2bad240]

my long block cost me $1500 with intake and turbo and flywheel

and all the parts for the head should not be $2000 what is wrong with the head itself?

[Gjohnson7]

my long block cost me $1500 with intake and turbo and flywheel

and all the parts for the head should not be $2000 what is wrong with the head itself?


No, the parts aren't $2000. The head parts are around $500 to $700, which puts my total around $2000. Machine work will run me $528, the rest are parts.


Rod Bearings [8] $36.32
Main bearings set 42.33
Thrust bearings [2] 15.24
Piston ring set 85.44
Engine Gasket set 142.05
water pump 54.36
oil pump/outer cover 177.23
Arp Headstuds and Cometic gasket $224.99

total before head parts : $777.96

[Wahl 136]

I PM'ed you about your problem.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Get some aftermarket valve springs (COMP), custom ferrera valves and get some valve guides from JWT. Commit to it and finish it. Judging by what your doing, you have a engine thats basically fresh with 0 miles on it.

[delphis]

you might as well go aftermarket if you are looking for an improvement in performance (which I am assuming you are) I would go after market everything because the fact is that the oem sr valve train sucks and will limit your power but if you upgrade you will get a better flow in the engine which will result in bigger power numbers.

[benefitx]

i got a complete head man if you want it...let me know

[daryl337]

even then, assuming you buy EVERYTHING new... valves are at most 16 bucks a pop (even the sodium filled exhaust valves).. the guides you can get bronze ones from JWT for about 100, springs and retainers you can probably get from some one that upgraded to brian crowers if you want stock ones... so it shouldnt cost you a crap load... unless you are talking the bearings that are crapped out.

[Gjohnson7]

Update! I picked up a longblock from a fellow Zilivian and finally got that bad boy droped in. Ive been trouble shooting issues for a while now and .......


Well, I know why my engine is running so rough. My neighbor came over earlier and we did a compression test on my engine. These are the results:

#1 155
#2 30
#3 160
#4 160

Yeah, that's a 30 in there. Found this info out and did a quick leak down test. Apparently I have a bent valve on the Intake side. Now I have to figure out if I can pull the head and replace with th engine in the car or if it is easier to pull the engine? Suggestions?????

[Gjohnson7]

Ok, guys I know someone has had to have done some head work. Is it do-able with the engine in. Or is it worth it to actually go through all the trouble of pulling the engine.

[jspaeth]

I predict that within 2 hours someone will say "Just pull the engine it's not that hard"

....hahah yea if you have a lift maybe

[Gjohnson7]

Yeah, it's not the pulling that I hate. It's the putting her back.

[fliprayzin240sx]

If I was in your shoe and I've personally pulled the head off with the engine in/out of the car, I've pull just the head. It all depends on how patient you are. If you take the head off with the engine in the car, take the intake manifold off so you can disconnect the miscelaneous lines under there and that pain in the ass 12mm bolt on the back left. You wont even have to take the exhaust manifold off, just disconnect the elbow from the dp. Then again, you'll probably have to take it off since youll have to take the head to a machine shop.

Anyways, howd you figure its a bent valve? Did you do the drop a capful of oil trick to see if the compression goes up a bit from 30 psi?

[Gjohnson7]

Anyways, howd you figure its a bent valve? Did you do the drop a capful of oil trick to see if the compression goes up a bit from 30 psi?

No, we rolled the engine up on Top dead center for cylinder #2 and blew compressed air into the spark plug hole. You could hear the air escaping through the intake manifold. My neighbor was telling me that if your cylinder wasn't leaking then the compressed air would make the engine rotate. We tried it on other cylinders and you have to hold a breaker bar steady. It actually kicks pretty hard if the cylinder is holding compression like it should.

[fliprayzin240sx]

IC, yah pull the head, get it decked fix the valve. Hopefully the valve didnt nick the head, had seen that happen before. Head was pretty much worthless since the valve wouldnt seal with a chip on the chamber.

[statik]

Now I have to figure out if I can pull the head and replace with th engine in the car or if it is easier to pull the engine? Suggestions?????

http://gallery.carvolution.org/main.php/d/1757-2/102_0822.jpg

It's quite doable, less work than pulling the motor. If you have ARP studs, you will have to remove them or it will be extremely difficult getting the head back on.

Prepare to have a friend help remove/install it as the timing chain guides can get in the way and the head is hard to hold up by yourself when you are leaning over an engine bay. You can do it by yourself if you stand in the engine bay right in front of the motor, but getting out of the bay is tricky =]

[Gjohnson7]

Alright, well considering the engine is basicly stock and will remain that way. Is the OEM Gasket set the best deal. I got a price from South Pointe Nissan in Texas of $142. I thought about doing the Cometic headgasket since my existing one is leaking now anyway, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to keep the car when its done. We found out 2 weeks ago that my wife is preganant so I might have to unload the S13, unless I can come up with money else where to pay off my Maxima. (Daily Driver)

[jspaeth]

Just sell the Maxima....it's the right thing to do...besides, little kids can sit in the backseat of 240s...

I spent ages 3-7 in the backseat of an old Datsun 200ZX and then spent ages 8-12 in the back of 200SX....S-chasses are made for little kids in the back!

[Gjohnson7]

Yeah, that was my explanation when I just had my 2 boys. Now with number 3 on the way, that boat doesn't float anymore. I guess we will see, I still have 7 months to come up with the cash.

As a side note, I'm getting snipped! No more for me!

[onehundredoctane]

if your taking the head off, get some Brian Crower valves, and springs, fairly inexpensive compared to other brands, and they are worth it! If the head comes off, it's ashame to replace parts with stock imo.

[Gjohnson7]

Well on a lighter note, I stopped by a buddies house this morning and we went to work on my extra valve cover. He has a pressure washer with a sand blasting attachment. I've never seen anything like it before, but its pretty cool and works great.

Here's what I started with

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00063.jpg

After some sanding, a few months ago.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/2664000-2664999/2664385_67_full.jpg

After the pressure washer with sand blasting attachment.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00693.jpg

I think it came out really nice. Probably won't even paint it now. It's hard to tell, but it has a real nice flake look to it.

[fliprayzin240sx]

Cometic is cheaper than stock...

[Gjohnson7]

Cometic is cheaper than stock...

Where can I find a Cometic cheaper that stock. I have seen quite a few cometic headgaskets for $100, but for $142.05 you get the OEM gasket set. Is there a set out there that comes with the cometic headgasket and all the other gaskets needed?

[Gjohnson7]

Actually just found the OEM kit from Courtesy nissan for $82.35.

http://www.courtesyparts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CP&Product_Code=11042-SRS13


Upper gasket kit includes:
Head Gasket
Valve Cover Gasket
Spark Plug Opening Gaskets (4)
Intake Manifold Gasket
Exhaust Manifold Gasket
Valve Stem Seals (16)
Tensioner Gasket
Oil Pick up O-ring

[Gjohnson7]

Mmmmmm..... Yummmmyyyyyyyyy..........

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00699.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00698.jpg

[Rusker]

I have a 2+ car garage so pulling the engine would be my suggestion. I know it's more work to get the engine in/out of the car but it's much easier to work on the engine itself when it's on an engine stand. I don't have tons of experience working on the internals of an engine so I try to set it up so I can easily do the work without trying to lean over the car, or get someone to give me a hand.

Sell the Maxima. What does your wife drive? You only need one car to haul the kids in. :)

[mademedoit]

Yeah, that was my explanation when I just had my 2 boys. Now with number 3 on the way, that boat doesn't float anymore. I guess we will see, I still have 7 months to come up with the cash.

As a side note, I'm getting snipped! No more for me!
Dude for the money that your going to give some doctor to hack your dick apart :ugh: you could get your woman to get an abortion. Anyways back on topic when you buy a 15+ engine who knows what to expect? Also I'd remove the rad and stand in front of the motor instead of removing the whole thing but its your call.

[greddyguy]

just pull the head man.

and you seem pretty set on OEM replacement parts, whats up with that??!

[johngriff]

Stock head gasket is better than the cometic

Grab an Apexi or Power Enterprises if you can.

Do the new head repair, valve springs etc, MUCH MUCH better, more reliable, crisper than POS long block from the unknown.

[Gjohnson7]

and you seem pretty set on OEM replacement parts, whats up with that??!

Well, seeing as how my budget hit a brick wall a month ago when I lost my job and found out my wife was having our 3 kid, I would say I have to keep the cost as low as possible. Because of the kid on the way I was going to have to sell this project when I got it completed, but now that doesn't look too easy either.

Here's my new find: Pulled the head today and found out that I have nothing but bad luck. As most of you know, I picked up this engine from another Zilvia member and everything seemed to be ok. Well, now I think I know why the Camshafts where installed incorrectly when I try to start the engine. (which of course bent a valve.)

When I started pulling the head I found out that the 2 sub bolts that are normally at the front of the head, were completly missing. Which explains why the headgasket was leaking.

After removing the Cams, my neighbor shouts man you just keep getting screwed. Yep, the cam journals are toast. Plenty of scarring to go around. Which now means, I need a new head. AGAIN!


http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00700.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00701.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00702.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00703.jpg

[fakts13]

damn, that's some tough luck. if you need to save cost, I have some used stock valves I could send you if want. just pay for the shipping and they're yours.

[Gjohnson7]

damn, that's some tough luck. if you need to save cost, I have some used stock valves I could send you if want. just pay for the shipping and they're yours.

Thanks for the offer, I'll let you know when I have time to rent some tools from advance auto and start pulling the head apart.

[Gjohnson7]

Alright guys, I know it's been a while since I've updated but I have another question. Ok, I finally was able to pull the head apart and inspect. Currently I have replaced all vavle seals and the machine shop is replacing the springs, retainers and keepers. But this is what I can't figure out, when I did my compression test cylinder #2 hit 25 psi. When we did the lead down test, we could hear the air escaping through the intake on cylinder #2. But there are no bent valves in the head. I inspected for cracks, but couldn't find any. What else could it be?

[fakts13]

crud/corrosion on the valves maybe? have the machine shop inspect and vacuum test the valves and seats on cylinder 2 and see what they think. A simple valve job could fix your problem. but it's hard to say without seeing the head.

[Gjohnson7]

Yeah, I did notice a good amount of crud and corrosion on the vavles. Since I was reusing the valves I lapped them real good, so hopefully that will improve the situation.

[fakts13]

i would have a machine shop vacuum test the valves to be honest. you don't want to spend all the time putting the head back on and have to do it again. they shouldn't charge very much just to that

[Gjohnson7]

i would have a machine shop vacuum test the valves to be honest. you don't want to spend all the time putting the head back on and have to do it again. they shouldn't charge very much just to that

Sounds like a good idea. I'll give the machine shop a call and see if they can work that in.

[Gjohnson7]

Thanks for the idea fakts13, I talked to the machine shop earlier and they did a vacuum test on the head and everything was A ok. Picked up the head earlier today and will hopefully have it on tomorrow with updates.

[jskateborders]

Possible that one of the valves in cylinder 2 was in the open position?

[fakts13]

no prob gjohnson ;) . this is a common occurence on motors that have been sitting a while. carbon hardens on internals and it takes a bit for it to get knocked off. you can sometimes just pour a cap full of ATF into each cylinder and crank it for a few minutes (a little bit at a time) and then start the car to help burn off and remove carbon from the cylinders. sometimes it will have to be machined like in your case. good to hear you're good to go now though! :bigok:

[Gjohnson7]

Ok, this isn't looking good so far. I have everything bolted back up on the head and engine and I finally got it started. I let it idle for about 2 mins and I took the vavle cover off again and the oil is starting to get milky again.

What is the problem????? Should I let it idle for longer than that, to possibly burn off the old crap that was still in the engine or am I basicly screwed and need to remove the head again???

[Gjohnson7]

Anyone?????????

[unicoladron]

sounds like there is a eitehr a hairline crack in the head or it's warped mang.

[fakts13]

could be the block is warped. I would do a couple of oil changes to make sure it's not just residual milky oil in the motor though.

[Gjohnson7]

Yeah I think I will try to do a couple of oil changes and go from there. It didn't seem like there was a lot of the milky oil, not like before.

The head that I have now is from my old engine and as far as I know was never overheated. I don't think it's warped, but who knows.

[Gjohnson7]

Man I'm so aggrevaited with this engine right now I could scream! Well, I haven't even had a chance to do the oil changes and such to see if the headgasket is leacking, but last night after helping my buddy pull a junked SR I ran home and attempted a quick compression test on my engine. Since I initially had issues with cylinder 2 last time, I figured it was the best place to start. When I did the compression test it's still hitting about 26psi on cylinder #2. What gives???

What else could be causing this? The machine shop that installed my springs and retainers did a vacuum test on the head and it checked out great. Is it still possible I have some gunk build up on a few of my vavles??? If so what can I use to remove it? Right now I'm just dumbfounded considering this is a different head that has been vacuum tested and I'm still having issues. Any suggestions before I pull the entire engine AGAIN!!!

[adictd2b00st]

when you had the head off did you notice any cracks around the cylinder wall of #2? anything look odd in that area?

[Gjohnson7]

My bad fakts13, I just reread your post above about the AtF in the cylinders. Should I try that or at this point is it a lost cause.

[Gjohnson7]

when you had the head off did you notice any cracks around the cylinder wall of #2? anything look odd in that area?

No there weren't any cracks in the cylinder wall, it acually still had the cross lines.(Can't remember what there called) The only thing that was odd to me was there seemed to be a slight flat spot that was machined into the piston, but I talked to with a few of my other friends that have rebuilt many engines and they said that it was to slight to effect anything. Also, that flat spot on the piston wouldn't produce the leak down results.

For those that haven't read the rest of this thread, when we did a leak down test on the engine the air was escaping through intake on cylinder # 2.

[fakts13]

wait, the air is coming through the intake when you do the leakdown? check your lifter on the intake side of cyl #2 then, it might be stuck open, making the valves stay open. that's if you are hearing the air go through the intake port/manifold. if you hear the air coming out of the oil cap, then it's the rings possibly a little stuck. if the vacuum test came out ok, and the air is going out the intake, I would put my money on a bad lifter not compressing as it should.

[Gjohnson7]

Ok, thanks for info. I will try to check that out after work.

[Gjohnson7]

Alright guys another quick question. I was playing around with the lifter on that side and it doesn't seem to be stuck, but I can't really tell. I figured I would pull it out and bleed it just to be safe, but I do have another question.

If for some reason there was the wrong Rocker Arm Shim installed on one of the valves on cylinder #2 would that compress the spring enough to leak compression???

I'm really grabbing a straws right now trying to figure out what else could cause this. Thanks

[fakts13]

try swapping the lifter from #2 to #3 or #1 and see if that switches the cylinder that leaks. if it does, you have a bad lifter. that's the only way I'd be able to tell you without seeing the lifter in person. wrong shim won't keep the valve open, it might make the rocker arm sit uneven, which could cause it to pop out, but that usually only happens at higher revs.

[Gjohnson7]

Well, I borrowed my neighbor's air chuck again and did another leak down test on the engine. This time i conducted the test per some instructions that I ran on another post. I pulled off the intercooler piping on the intake and exhaust, opened the throttle plate and pulled the dip stick.

When I started the test on cylinder #2 the air immediately shot out of the dip stick hole, so apparently my Piston rings on cylinder #2 are shot. So I guess I will have to pull the engine again. Well, where do I go from here. I have to get this engine running and the car painted as soon as possible, because I have to sell my project before the baby gets here in August.

Do I need to have the whole bottom end rebuilt? Any suggestions??

[devnull]

It's possible that you only need to re-ring #2. Another possibility is that the rings were installed upside-down.

How are all the other cylinders compression and leak-down wise?

[Gjohnson7]

Before I pulled the head, my orignal compression test numbers where

156 - 27 - 157 - 157

[Gjohnson7]

Oh and the leak down test on the other cylinders where great. We couldn't hear any air escaping at all on the other cylinders.

Although, I didn't perform a test on any of the other cylinders tonight, just cylinder #2.

[xsublimefrekx]

i would just buy another longblock that is good and swap that in and sell the car with a spare motor.

[Gjohnson7]

Dude, this is the other longblock I bought to swap in. Can you understand my frustration?

[landins13]

i have 2 spare heads complete with no issues and i have 3 blocks, pm me if interested

[CrazyTrance]

Wow man, i can feel the frustration from here. THis stinks really bad man. I hope all turns out well! Best of luck!

[fakts13]

it could be that the rings in cyl 2 are a bit stuck from carbon deposits, compression and leakdown tests done on a motor that has been sitting may not always tell the story about the motor. did you try the ATF in the cylinder and then cranking the motor for a couple of minutes? It could help to dislodge some of the carbon in the cylinder. As a last resort, you could just try to start the motor and see if the rings pop. I've had motors before where you could hear the rings pop out right when the motor started. fun stuff. You might as well try right?

[s13drob]

if you havnt already when you perform the leakdown u got 2 rock the crank back and forth a little when the cylinder is a TDC to make sure the rings sit right. its leakdown procedure.

and it looks like u got the usual carbon buildup on the #2 cyl. intake valves

[Gjohnson7]

Well, I've tried Atf in the cylinder and it hasn't improved. I poured some down there, cranked the engine and then I even started the engine and let it ran for about 15 mins. Still no dice.

[Gjohnson7]

Should I just continue to keep pouring Atf in the cylinder and cranking the engine, trying to get the rings unstuck?

[fakts13]

hmmm... if you let the motor run for that long, I'd say it's no good. how was the cross-hatching in cylinder 2? if it's still pretty good, you might be able to just re-ring cylinder 2 just to get everything running.

[Gjohnson7]

The cross-hatching in cylinder 2 looked fine when we had the head off. I inspected each cylinder when the head was off and every cylinder still had the cross-hatching easily visible.

[fakts13]

you should be able to get away with just replacing the rings on cyl 2. best thing to do would be to just lightly hone the cylinder with a drill and honing stone setup to help the new rings break-in and seal well.

[Gjohnson7]

Well, come to find out my problem isn't a simple piston ring issue. Take a look at what Piston #2 looks like. Apparently the flat spot on this piston wasn't machined in.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00789.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00791.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00793.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC00795.jpg

Well, I guess it's a good thing I have 4 extra SR pistons laying around.

[Gjohnson7]

Oh, does anyone have any idea what would cause this? High boost???

[Gjohnson7]

Anyone know where to find a stock rebuild kit with all the gaskets and bearings I'll need?

[Gjohnson7]

Alright this is what I am considering. I planning on having the block power washed and having the cylinders honed. Picking up a ring set, rod bearings, main bearings and thrust washers and having the machine shop gap the rings. The 3 other Pistons and rods that were pulled out of the engine are in great shape and I have 4 other SR pistions from my spare engine. Of course I will need to pick up a new headgasket, but all my other gaskets are new considering I bought a complete gasket kit in mid February.

Are there any other things that I am missing? The machine qouted me $25 for the power wash, $50 to hone the cylinders and $65 an hour to gap the rings.

[fakts13]

make sure you check piston to wall clearances on all pistons as well as out of round to make sure you aren't going to waste your time with that cylinder that had a bad piston. And in regards to how a flat spot got there the pics are kind of out of focus, but it looks like the ring lands cracked off there. That could be caused by detonation, or maybe the rings were jammed up in the cylinder from sitting too long and when the motor was cranked it busted the lands. If you are going to have the block re-ringed, you might also want to look into replacing the bearings as well, so you have an almost brand new motor to start with.

[Gjohnson7]

Yeah the ring lands did crack off on that piston.

And I will be picking up new Rod bearings, Main bearings and Thrust washers.

[fakts13]

cool, looks like you're all set! good luck with the rebuild! :bigok:

[zavala]

i see where you found the busted #2 piston and that sucks!! but, what did the bearins look like in it when you took it apart? i ask cause i recenly did a rebuild on a jeep with the same exact thing, milky vanilla pudding everywhere. turns out he had the headgasket go on it, but it only blew into the oil return passages not the pistons but still taking out the whole motor. coolant eats babbit on bearings like nobodies business and it's not fun. have everything magnafluxed and decked if needed also if the bearings where bad you might want to have them cheack the crank and rods for being out of round. sucks man, sorry

[Gjohnson7]

The bearings acutally looked really good. I went ahead and pulled all the pistons and inspected the Crank and Bearings and everything all seemed to be in excellent condition.