yota man

The thing is these couples would be together with or without the title. No one is asking that every religion should honor their union. They want it from the state. The tax benefits, loan rates, the right to just be able to see the person they love if they are in the hospital and the family does not agree with their life style, or even to be able to make a critical decision when that person is in the hospital and they are the one that knows their partner the best. etc etc

Imagine your wife goes into a coma that she will never recover from. Shes on all kinds of life support. Machines are the only thing keeping her alive. Her wish was for you to pull the plug but her family, who may or may not have spoken to her in years and would have no idea what her views on the matter were, wont allow it and you have no say. She didn't get to write a living will but you know in your heart that you know her best and thats what she wanted. But still you have no say what so ever.

That is what it would be like if one of these couples were in that situation with out the title of a marriage.

I think all people should be allowed to be happy as long as it doesn't affect anyone but themselves. And if along the way they help some child who may have been doomed to be in the foster care system for their entire childhood then more power to them.

A loving home of any sorts is better than no home at all.

Agamemnon

I'm curious, what is a gay right and how will we give(or take) them away?

Can someone educate me on how a right differs according to sexual preference?

FaLKoN240

I have a new found respect for you now.

Did you even read the post above yours?

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cc4usmc

If that's what they want, why don't they just fight for the same benefits under a different title? They're not just fighting the state for this, they're fighting the people. I'm sure the people would be less likely to oppose them if their treasured "marriage" title wasn't in danger of being tarnished.

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drift freaq

Ok I am going to say this. I think Gays should be allowed to be married. My father does not feel the same way. Its not so much that he hates them. He feels that they are born that way. He feels its not how God intended but he also feels God accepts things and cannot condemn them. Now he is a Devout Christian born in a very different time.

The only argument anyone can give against Gay marriage is solely based on a Religious reasons. Now honestly there is nothing in the Bible that says Gays should not marry. Their is wording that suggests men should not lie with men but that is as far as it goes. Of course their are statements about Sodomy but again that is not clearly delineated.

Now given that some things in the Bible may have been rewritten or warped by man to better rule or control his subjects one sometimes wonders where truth delineates from fiction.

In a sense the U.S. was founded on the basis of separation of Church and State. So in that sense the Government should have the right to allow gay marriage.

What galls me the most these days is how some of the religious in recent times have chosen to warp that separation and influence politics with their own agenda. In fact they push their religious views on others through politics these days.
Abortion rights, Gay marriage? If America really has true separation of state then these things should be allowed.

It has nothing to do with if you agree or not is has to do with staying true to what the founding fathers envisioned Separation of Church and State.

If they state can perform civil marriages then the state should be able to perform Gay marriages. Plain and simple.

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yota man

The thing is what would you call it? The state calls it a marriage. They want what that comes with that. It would be the same thing no matter what its called, so why shouldn't they be allowed to have a marriage?

The real issue is that they want equal rights that we have. I feel that it would kind of be a slap in the face if we were like "ok you can have all the benefits but we're going to make a new legal standard that uses a different word because we don't want you to have the precious title of marriage."

Honestly it kind of sounds like to me "separate but equal." I imagine it would just open up a new can of worms there and people could use what title they have against them. Like if they went for a loan and a bank didnt want to give them the rate for a married couple they could just say "oh well this is for married couples not (insert what term they'd call it) couples. Sorry."

cc4usmc

drift-So you're saying the state should marry two men or women regardless of what the people want?

yota- If I was gay and just wanted the benefit a marriage offers, I wouldn't really care what it was called. Would you?

To me, it sounds like they want the marriage title because they want to force people to accept their relationship. Now, like drift said, many people are against it for only religious reasons. You might be able to separate Church from State, but you cannot force Church from the People of the State. If the majority of the people of the State of California do not want to allow gay marriages for whatever reason, then it shouldn't happen. And, with Prop 8 passing, it won't.

I'm no expert at this at all, this is just how I feel. I have bisexual friend, and I'm going to be honest, it makes me feel uncomfortable when he jokes about playing with men. I don't think it's right, but I'm not going to condemn someone just because that's how they are. But I don't appreciate when Mormon's come knockin at my door, trying to force their religion on me. Say thing goes for homosexuals. Do what you do, but have respect for those who don't accept, and from me you'll get respect. (Damn, I like the way that sounds. Time for a copyright lol)

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yota man

There was a time when a majority of the population was ok with slavery. Finally some people had the balls to stand up and say "hey these people aren't the same as me but they are still people. And here in America we should all have the right be happy no matter what are differences are."

I know that my example is a little more extreme but I feel like it has the same foundation and problem. People even used some of the same arguments against gay rights that people used for segregation.

People denying others rights just because they are different is NOT what America is about. At least to me it shouldnt be.

Bubbles

How long did it take until people realized they shouldn't be mistreating people because of their skin color?


May be waiting a while for same sex marriages to be commonplace.

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drift freaq

Prop 8 vote was rigged and abused by the religious right. It was pure bullshit. Oh and it has nothing to do with conspiracy. the Religious right campaigned and seriously mislead the general public with their commercials and statements about prop 8 . On top of that several out of state religious organizations dumper serious stacks of money into that campaign. It was not fair or truthful by any stretch of the imagination and the California public got duped by the Religious right.

As far as your bisexual friend being inappropriate around you? You should let him now that it makes you feel uncomfortable. It's like talking about girls private stuff around girls.
There are always going to be people saying inappropriate things in inappropriate places. This is not something that only happens with Gays or bisexuals.

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cc4usmc

How exactly did they dupe people?

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drift freaq

they said things in the advertisment that were not exactly what the prop said. On top of this I know where you are going with this. You do not agree with the idea nor are you going to. So rather than trying to argue it with you? I am going to end it here.

You don't agree with my views and obviously that means I do not agree with yours. No matter how much explaining I do you will find a way to argue you it as I would with you.
So in other words I will agree to disagree and leave it that.

Otherwise we will just down the road of back and forth which you are pushing so hard.

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cc4usmc

What the fuck? You are terribly wrong with that assumption of yours, as I had no direction what so ever with that question. I have no idea what you were talking about, so I wanted hear your side. I don't think I've displayed any hostility at all in my, what, 3 posts, so I don't know what your problem is. I hope they make a ladder high enough to reach that horse you're on. Bye bye.

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Agamemnon

What rights do straight people have that gays do not?

Agamemnon

A better question is, did you even understand mine?

You never answered the two questions asked.

Future240

I got it, the answers are a "gay" right is the same as a "straight" right. There should be no gay rights as they people who are gay are still people and should be entitled to all the rights as non-gay people.

I see it very simply. To not give a person rights due to their age, sex, skin color, are all classic examples of discrimination. So how can people argue doing the same for sexual preference isn't discrimination?

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murda-c

Nasty pillow biting bastards?

You're cutting it real close sweetheart.

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RNGWLD

Is there a dire lack of straight couples waiting to adopt?


I agree with "gay rights", my only problem is that many gays are extremists in that you are either 110% with them in everything, or you are a "homophobic insecure bigot"

I have no problems with a man finding love with another man, if thats what makes him happy. Or with gay couples being granted visiting rights etc. Coming from south america, I find it sickening to attack someone because they are gay, or the bullying that goes on in schools against them.

BUT

I do have a problem with the mentality of encouraging kids to "experiment" to find out if they are gay or not, and I will have a huge problem when I come home and see my kids watching "Disney's Prince Charming and Prince Enchanting, a version for gays", which is what we are moving forward too.

I think that having both a female and male figure is crucial for the development of a child. No matter how much "love" you have, a man cannot fully replace a female mother for a little girl, and no matter how much "love" you have, a woman cannot take the full place of a father figure for a little boy. And I say this as someone who was raised by a mother and grew up with 3 sisters. Sorry, but that's reality. Whether you think that a secure and functional gay couple can provide a loving home to a child or not (which in many cases obviously is the case), it will never be the same as a secure and functional family where there is a mother/father figure.

Now I'll just sit here and wait being judged as a homophobic bigot

Future240

How many gay people have you actually met and talked to? While there are extreme gay people(there are extremes in all categories of people), all the gay people I have met and talked to have been just regular people.

The media makes it seem like the gay community is so extreme and demanding, when in truth the most of them don't try to force gay on others. There are several gay zilvia members, but have you seen them be the gay extreme and preach about how we are all bigots? No.

I am not calling you a bigot or saying your entire post is wrong. I am just pointing out one part that is a partial untruth.

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murda-c

Just wondering, do you believe single parents should be allowed to adopt?

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!Zar!

So you want to trick a huge majority of the people by giving them marriage rights but without the title? That's no different than Jim Crow Laws.

That whole vote no on prop 8 means you are for gay marriage was dumb. I know MANY, MANY people who voted YES thinking it would be FOR gay marriage. I even know a gay person who was going around pro prop 8 until I educated them.

See above. Not to mention gay marriage was legalized and then taken away.

The ability to have life choices. The ability to adopt without the expensive and long drawn out process that it currently entails.

Don't forget that taxes as well as health care, ability to sue for death, property, insurance. So many things that straight people take for granted.

Gay people aren't trying to legalize marriage so they can fuck like rabbits on the streets.

I haven't seen any, "forcing kids to experiment". Even gay couples that I know who have kids don't force their kid to be gay. I'm pretty sure they would rather them grow up without the headache and hardship that they went in to.

As for development, what's better, a kid stuck in foster care, or a kid who's been brought up in a loving home?

Honestly, knowing that you've been adopted at ANY age can fuck with your head. Be it to a straight or gay family. But I'm damn sure that a kid will end up better off knowing that they are in a loving family instead of bouncing between foster homes and adoption agencies.

Pretty much. Good ol media. America likes to see fucked up stuff. That's why they always have one gay person, one ghetto black person and four other, "normal" people on Real World and stuff. Even on the news they seem to find the most flamboyant gay man possible to ask questions on tv. Or find the most ghetto, uneducated black person and ask them a question.

Why, because america likes making a mockery of it.

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drift freaq

Hmmm excuse me, it seemed all your questioning pointed towards a difference of opinion. Reread your own statements. I am not talking about hostility. It cracks me up that people on this forum immediately consider a debate or argument as a form of hostility.

I seriously was tired last night and did not feel like getting into a debate that I felt would go on for awhile. Based on your questions and statements of where you stood it looked that way. Again, reread your own posts.


I was pointing some basic facts about the vote and your general disposition proved you already would not have agreed.

So why debate or argue. I do the gentlemanly thing of bowing out and agreeing to disagree and you can call it hostile and stuck up? LOL

Do someone a gesture of not going down the road of disagreement and they get offended. LOL

Dude you seriously need to look at your reaction to this. What I did had nothing to do with me feeling you were hostile or hostility on my part. It did have to do with nothing more than feeling it that the debate would go nowhere.

I call your position which you had previous stated and you get upset about it? You accuse me of getting on a high horse?
Wow just fucking wow. Excuse me for trying to do both of us a favor.

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yota man

The problem is that there aren't alot of couples who adopt. With all the new ways a man and wife can have a kid of their own has drastically reduced the amount of couples who cant have a child at all. Which means less people going the adoption route.

I was raised by mother and sister also and I do agree with what you said but I take it back to what I said before any loving home is better than no home. I couldn't imagine having to grow up with with no mother or father. Being passed along between foster homes and hoping and waiting that someday someone would want to take me and give me a home.

Agamemnon

They can already adopt. They already receive the same tax benefits as a married couple. They can already sue for death, property, and insurance.

What does fucking like rabbits have anything to do your arguement.

!Zar!

No they do not. Only a few states allow full marriage rights (Connecticut, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Vermont). These states can only provide this on a local level. So on a federal level same sex marriage will not have equal rights nor receive the full benefits of a marriage.

It is a drawn out and expensive process to gain domestic partnership legally. That costs a lot of money just to gain power of attorney and health care decisions and, inheritance that are normally obtained through marriage.

Same-sex couples are not eligible to file jointly or separately as a married couple and thus cannot take the advantages of lower tax rates when the individual income of the partners differs significantly

The sex comment was towards everyone who seems to think that fucking is all they care about which isn't true.

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cc4usmc

Who said anything about tricking people? I'm pretty sure that the word marriage hasn't been around since day one, and that it was created just like any other word. If they can create a word thousands of years ago to describe the union between a man and a woman, we can create a word today to describe the union of two people of the same sex.

First off, isn't the Loud Noises area for debating sensitive subjects? If you're not up for debate, gtfo. Instead, you come in here and cry because a bunch of idiots couldn't actually read Prop 8 for themselves to know what it was and they naturally had blame someone else when they realized they voted opposite of what they had intended. And then, because my questions point towards a difference of opinion, you make some assumptions on that horse of yours and then try to "do us both a favor" and bounce. [Insert vagina smiley] Sounds like you bitched out of a "debate" that wasn't even there.

Stop making assumptions. I asked a couple simple question's and you assumed I was gonna rant and rave against you for the life of this thread. This is was pissed me off, because I came in here and attempted to have a civil convo with people and then you go and make that stupid post.

As far as my posts go, I don't need to reread them, I know exactly what I was saying and where I was going with them.

Now I'm going pull a drift freaq, and do everyone a favor bitch outta this thread for good. drift, if you're not too tired, feel free to continue this in a pm.

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Agamemnon

Yes they do. Any benefits they receive will always be on a state level before the federal government will recognize civil unions. Thusly, states like California allow and require that all domestic partnerships must file jointly. And just so you know, there are no such things as marriage rights in the United States.

Domestic Partnerships are cheap and easy to get. $33 in fees and you're done. Some say it's faster and easier than getting a marriage license.

As for the comment about fucking like rabbits. I think just about everyone here gets the idea that gays aren't just doing this to fuck in the streets.

slothonaleash

Homosexuality is truly the final frontier for civil rights. We are treated as second class citizens and it disgusts me to see what's going on in America. I have sat through classes where kids openly bash gay people, and teachers sit there and laugh along with it. Just last month a guy that I had dated in the past was violently beaten in the head with a hammer between classes--the kid with the hammer had his facebook status set as "fuck yall f*ggots." He ended up with swelling in his brain and a massive concussion--he's alive thankfully.

I've lost friends, family, and my personal safety over the issue of whom I happen to be attracted to. It's okay to hate us, judge us, hurt us because of something I cannot help. It's okay to limit our rights and debase us to second class citizens because America is afraid to break away from the church, break away from fear of differences.

I appreciate the discussion, especially the individuals seeking to keep gay marriage abolished federally, it's always interesting to see what people think; as well as their motives.

!Zar!

You said
Making them give it another name is trying to trick people into voting in their favor. The whole reason they are fighting for equality is to be treated the same. Not treated differently and forced to start their own partnership-marriage-ordeal-that-isn't-a-marriage-because-people-can't-cope thing.

People reasoning like you are why Jim Crow Laws came into effect. To you it sounds like a good idea because it isn't affecting you directly.

So according to you gay people are making all of this a big deal and marriage is pointless and they actually have an easier time being gay then straight people do.

Sweet. Lets start telling the gay community they are blowing everything out of proportion and what they are fighting is pointless because they already have what they are fighting fore.

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Agamemnon

Who said anything about gays having it easier than straights? Do you think that calling a domestic partnership a marriage will make their lives easier in some fashion?

It would seem you are the one blowing things way beyond the scope of the conversation.

I just want a simple explanation of rights gays do not have that straight people have. That's all. Very simple.