RB25DET or Built KA-T? - Page 3 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

drift freaq · 10-04-2005, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimpleS14

Yea, as mentioned before...I fear price increases due to popularity and eventually scarity on good motors. Heck...the new Fast and Furious movie is suppose to have a RB-powered Mustang. If this holds true, who knows what kind of price gouging were going to see.

Okay...so I'm interested in this install kit...and I will e-mail you later about it drift freq, but I have one more question....

tuning...how do you go about tuning this motor?

tuning is no different than any other engine. There are shops out there that have been tuning Skyline engines for years. Any reputable tuner can handle it.

kouki_s14 · 10-05-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Face it , if your going to go KA turbo the cop is going to see. They are no longer that ignorant. If your that scared about getting pulled over and losing it, you should not be doing anything performance wise. Just sell your car and by something powerful new and legal.
Fact is I live in L.A. just like you do and unless your down in Culver City or out drag racing in the San Fernando Valley or driving stupidly out in Industry you really do not have to worry. My friends and I have driven modded engine cars here for years. The trick to not getting pulled over is not being stupid. Also don't run an exhaust that screams pull me over. The RB with the right exhaust is so quit you cannot hear it. With my exhaust it has a throaty healthy six sound but guess what ? I drove by no less than 5 cops in Torrance/Gardena yesterday afternoon on tuning runs never once did they look at me.
Oh ya my exhaust is a Buddy Club Spec II with a high flow cat.

thats actually pretty convincing to me, i think im gonna stick with the original plan of the RB, thanks and keep us updated on how the mounts fit in the s14

ramblux · 10-05-2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Fact is I live in L.A. just like you do and unless your down in Culver City or out drag racing in the San Fernando Valley or driving stupidly out in Industry you really do not have to worry.

I live in Culver City and I've never been hassled. And I've been driving a bright yellow AE86 with CF drop vent hood and CF trunk, 20-valve with quad throttle bodies, high-rise header, and no cat!

Back on topic, you guys are certainly giving me some things to think about for my S14... I may have to take a closer look at the RB25.

drift freaq · 10-05-2005, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramblux

I live in Culver City and I've never been hassled. And I've been driving a bright yellow AE86 with CF drop vent hood and CF trunk, 20-valve with quad throttle bodies, high-rise header, and no cat!

Back on topic, you guys are certainly giving me some things to think about for my S14... I may have to take a closer look at the RB25.

I was going by what some friends had told from west la and their experiences in Culver City. I am glad to here its not that bad there as well. You should take a closer look at the RB, its dope!

P.S.posting from Chicago

sweet89s13 · 10-20-2005, 12:09 PM

i have a sohc ka and i beat my buddies dohc ka with complete exhaust, intake, maf but i would still go for the rb just because of the shitloads of power to come within that block. power support is insane but it will cost you more but then again you pay for what you get
that and the price will be around the same ball park give or take a few k's demand for rb's are low

abuC · 10-20-2005, 02:48 PM

I'd forget both and go with a 1jz-gte.

drift freaq · 10-20-2005, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abuC

I'd forget both and go with a 1jz-gte.

traitor, hahhahahhahahaha J/k

HolyShiznit · 10-21-2005, 02:14 AM

Ok this is all preference but whatever. I made 310 rwhp on my KA-T with my 4200 dollar set-up. That's 4200 dollars with the expansion built inside, IE big injectors, turbo, etc. That was stock cams, stock TB, stock intake manifold, stock unopened motor. I understand it could be done for cheaper, I understand people will flame me for spending that much anyways, but whatever.

I personally say go with whatever is cheapest to YOU at the time. I found good deals on all my stuff so *shrug*. Also after having ridden in and played with a couple RB25's I don't know where this "amazing torque" comes from. 90% of the torque curves I have seen from them have LESS low end than a KA. They rev higher but I wouldn't say they create more torque, my KA is evident of that. Dont' get me wrong I like both motors, so I refused to vote.

So ya, I guess my post has no relevance cause I like both of them, but oh well.

drift freaq · 10-21-2005, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyShiznit

Ok this is all preference but whatever. I made 310 rwhp on my KA-T with my 4200 dollar set-up. That's 4200 dollars with the expansion built inside, IE big injectors, turbo, etc. That was stock cams, stock TB, stock intake manifold, stock unopened motor. I understand it could be done for cheaper, I understand people will flame me for spending that much anyways, but whatever.

I personally say go with whatever is cheapest to YOU at the time. I found good deals on all my stuff so *shrug*. Also after having ridden in and played with a couple RB25's I don't know where this "amazing torque" comes from. 90% of the torque curves I have seen from them have LESS low end than a KA. They rev higher but I wouldn't say they create more torque, my KA is evident of that. Dont' get me wrong I like both motors, so I refused to vote.

So ya, I guess my post has no relevance cause I like both of them, but oh well.

Less low end than a KA? Out of a RB ? you shure you did not ride in a RB20 powered car? Are you sure your have ridden in cars with engines that were tuned properly i.e. running right? I can personally attest to the hands down difference of a RB over a SR or a stock KA. Now if your trying to compare your 310rwhp KAT it would probably be closer to the stock RB if not slightly better on low end for one reason. A stock RB install is not going to give its owner 310rwhp. More like somewhere in the range of 250rwhp.
Unless the RB's had the bolts I have done on my RB along with a boost controller, you cannot compare the two. Its like stock vs modified. If you came here and rode in my S13 I think you would be surprised.

P.S. most people are not going to be able to put together a 310rwhp KAT for $4200 either. Thats not expensive thats cheap for that amount of HP.

patrick10 · 10-21-2005, 11:21 AM

4200 isnt expensive for 300 hp on a ka. people are just used to the prices of a turbo kit which are mostly rediculous. you could easily get 300 whp for a little over 3000.

HolyShiznit · 10-22-2005, 12:16 PM

At 8 psi my 240 was trapping 110 consecutively. I have never EVER been within more than a 10 wheel torque difference from horsepower on any of my set-ups. I have ridden in RB25 cars that were properly "stock" with simple intercooler/downpipe/exhaust changes. I was also judging it by the dyno graphs (so few exist) of S13's with RB25's. 90% of the time the RB25 makes a much greater variance of HP as compared to low end. Then again any number of things could change this.

http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=133806

In my town it's the two KA-T's, three RB25's (one NEO), and one RB20. I like both engines, I think the RB25 sounds sexier hands down. But I don't think I would be pissed if I had either in my engine bay, they are both really good engines.

drift freaq · 10-22-2005, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyShiznit

At 8 psi my 240 was trapping 110 consecutively. I have never EVER been within more than a 10 wheel torque difference from horsepower on any of my set-ups. I have ridden in RB25 cars that were properly "stock" with simple intercooler/downpipe/exhaust changes. I was also judging it by the dyno graphs (so few exist) of S13's with RB25's. 90% of the time the RB25 makes a much greater variance of HP as compared to low end. Then again any number of things could change this.

http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=133806

In my town it's the two KA-T's, three RB25's (one NEO), and one RB20. I like both engines, I think the RB25 sounds sexier hands down. But I don't think I would be pissed if I had either in my engine bay, they are both really good engines.

Nor would I, though I do prefer the RB because of the way it runs. I will be interested to get my setup on the dyno. My current setup is using the Greddy Manifold with a Q45 throttle body,FMIC, complete elbow through down pipe 3 inch piping with a buddy club spec II exhaust and a Power FC. I need to get a boost controller for it.

HolyShiznit · 10-22-2005, 01:34 PM

That should breathe a lot better than, get that thing on the dyno. PM me the details of it when you do!

evrae205b · 10-23-2005, 12:36 AM

ka-t is more practical as far as replacement parts and is cheaper to install and build. good enough reason fro me. there are other differences such as wieght distribusion, torque band ect. but thats all up to your personal preference.

Tenchuu · 10-23-2005, 07:53 PM

i Auctually am looking at both, to get 300+HP our of both the RB25 is thousands cheaper than a KA-T kit. RB25=$2500 for a front clip, 1K for the install kit and then i have 250+/- HP add a FMIC, Greddy intake manafold, and a decent exhaust manifold, SAFC and AVCR the RB is going to be 300-350

For a 300+/- kit for the KA is is$ 4000+/- plus ECU tuneing plus if i go mutch higher i really need to gut the engine and get the internals good. then adding the other items i mentioned earler, the are auctually more expensive for the KA-tT intake/exhause manifolds/FMIC ki. the AVCR won't work so i would probibbly have to dump the SAFC that i have and get a system that plays nice togather.

RB is cheaper, more complete kit, has more potential and cheaper aftermarket performance parts.
So tell me again how the KA-T is better?

HolyShiznit · 10-23-2005, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenchuu

i Auctually am looking at both, to get 300+HP our of both the RB25 is thousands cheaper than a KA-T kit. RB25=$2500 for a front clip, 1K for the install kit and then i have 250+/- HP add a FMIC, Greddy intake manafold, and a decent exhaust manifold, SAFC and AVCR the RB is going to be 300-350

For a 300+/- kit for the KA is is$ 4000+/- plus ECU tuneing plus if i go mutch higher i really need to gut the engine and get the internals good. then adding the other items i mentioned earler, the are auctually more expensive for the KA-tT intake/exhause manifolds/FMIC ki. the AVCR won't work so i would probibbly have to dump the SAFC that i have and get a system that plays nice togather.

RB is cheaper, more complete kit, has more potential and cheaper aftermarket performance parts.
So tell me again how the KA-T is better?

Okiedoke, *cracks knuckles*.

JGS manifold 250
T3/T4 Used 300 New 500
52lb injectors 200
Z32 MAF 100
JWT ECU Used 400 New 500
FMIC 100-300
Tial 38mm wastegate w/ 1 bar spring 200 (I think...)
Fuel Rail 100
Intercooler Piping 300 w/ couplers/t bolts
Clutch 250
BOV 80ish
Downpipe (random cost, depends on a lot)

Total 2,780 (brand new prices). 14psi on a stock bottom end is easily 300whp minimum on a properly sized T3/t4. So that's assuming you don't get any deals on anything.

Onto address some other points. How in god's name is an exhaust manifold for a 4 cyl MORE expensive than a 6 cyl? How in god's name would the SAFC NOT work with the AVCR? I happen to use a JWT, SAFC II, AND an AVCR.

Bottom line is, the power numbers come out even. Next round of upgrades for the KA would be a bottom end, boost controller. The next round of upgrades for the RB would be turbo, manifold, intake manifold, ETC. Both would be around 400+ easily at this point. Past that point so many things start to add up that the numbers get cloudy. So once AGAIN. It will end up costing the SAME. Let's not even mention would you rather bolt on parts or swap a motor/wire. Both are awesome choices. Pick what you want and what's most PRACTICAL. I know countless people that importing a motor, re-wiring, and swapping it just can't be done without a shop at their disposal.

Either way KA or RB you win.

drift freaq · 10-24-2005, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenchuu

i Auctually am looking at both, to get 300+HP our of both the RB25 is thousands cheaper than a KA-T kit. RB25=$2500 for a front clip, 1K for the install kit and then i have 250+/- HP add a FMIC, Greddy intake manafold, and a decent exhaust manifold, SAFC and AVCR the RB is going to be 300-350

For a 300+/- kit for the KA is is$ 4000+/- plus ECU tuneing plus if i go mutch higher i really need to gut the engine and get the internals good. then adding the other items i mentioned earler, the are auctually more expensive for the KA-tT intake/exhause manifolds/FMIC ki. the AVCR won't work so i would probibbly have to dump the SAFC that i have and get a system that plays nice togather.

RB is cheaper, more complete kit, has more potential and cheaper aftermarket performance parts.
So tell me again how the KA-T is better?

well I can attest to a few things here, first off you could use the SAFC without the AVCR and get in the ballpark with a greddy intake, Q45 throttle body, and a boost controller. You do not need to change your exhaust manifold unless your planning a turbo upgrade.
Now given that people have put down 262 whp with stock boost theoretically you should be in the 300 range. You will top out in the 300whp range with the stock turbo, but the minute you change the turbo you open a lot of doors power wise.

drift freaq · 10-24-2005, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyShiznit

Okiedoke, *cracks knuckles*.

JGS manifold 250
T3/T4 Used 300 New 500
52lb injectors 200
Z32 MAF 100
JWT ECU Used 400 New 500
FMIC 100-300
Tial 38mm wastegate w/ 1 bar spring 200 (I think...)
Fuel Rail 100
Intercooler Piping 300 w/ couplers/t bolts
Clutch 250
BOV 80ish
Downpipe (random cost, depends on a lot)

Total 2,780 (brand new prices). 14psi on a stock bottom end is easily 300whp minimum on a properly sized T3/t4. So that's assuming you don't get any deals on anything.

snip happens..........
Either way KA or RB you win.

Shiznit, I do respect your opinion, but you know and I know some of those prices you have listed, are very hookup!! Thats really not a fair comparision.

Also like I stated earlier in this thread and other threads where this debate has raged the only KAT guys argueing the KAT being cheaper are back yard guys who piece there own kits together. Basically for a lot of people thats not fair. A lot of these guys do not put their own kits together and would not want to start to go that way. They would prefer to buy a kit.
People that go for SR and RB installs do so, because they do not want to try to piece something together.
Fact is, also I have not seen anyone do a KAT daily driver that runs 14lb's continously, unless T.Y. has been very busy these last couple of years. Last I heard daily driven KAT's were reliable at 11lbs which basically puttingA out 310rwhp. Now I know your claiming more shiznit, but I would like to see how long your engine will last if its stock.
Again I am not stating these things for the fact of who is better, just to bring clarity to the picture.

In the end its totally up to the person which way they want to go . I prefer a 6 cylinder, I am biased and I admit it.
Do I think its the ultimate engine? No. Do I feel it rules over a 4 cylinder? Yes. Do I feel eight cylinders are superior to 6 ? Depending on the engine, Yes!! Do I feel 12 cylinders are awesome? Yes. Sorry guys but the more cylinders a engine has the smoother it runs. Why do you think they call 4 cylinder engines 4 bangers? Because they do not run as smooth and tend to vibrate. Does it mean I hate them no. They have their purpose.
I just prefer sixs and this goes all the way back to my days of 510's and 240z's, once I gradauted out of 510's into 240z's I never looked back. I loved the L series 6 in those days. Now I feel its an ancient engine that needs to be laid to rest. Modern 6's just put the L series six to shame. Its called technoligical advancement.
I made a venture back into 4 cylinders for awhile with 240sx's but the minute I got my teeth back into a 6 in our cars, again I can't look back. A SR in a Datsun roadster or 510 sure, but car that has room for a 6?ヘッッlイェア!!

HolyShiznit · 10-24-2005, 04:14 AM

I think we are arguing for the same thing, however. If someone is not willing to piece together a turbo kit then I doubt they will have the mechanical and technical know-how to wire an engine and install it. That adds cost, because that is meaning that someone is going to be billed for the work. My motor lasted for 2 years unopened bottom end, lots of track/street racing/auto-xing. Not saying EVERYONE'S will last that long but hey, it happens more often than you think. Also my friends NEO RB25 developed rod knock within 2 weeks of it being up and running. Does that mean all RB25's are crap? Not at all! Shit happens. For the last time, either way it's gonna be a PITA. KA-T is definitely not the way to go if you are a n00b about modding cars. Importing an RB25 and having a shop professionally install it would put a smile much faster on your face than carefully selecting pieces and developing a kit for the KA.

Personally I think both engines are dumb. As soon as I blow up my KA-T I want an LS1.

Also those prices I quoted are available to 90% of the regular customers out there on various different sites. And they were the prices of my original pieces of equipment when I pieced my kit together 3 years ago. BTW: Get your car on the dyno Drift Freaq!

big-byrd · 10-24-2005, 10:32 AM

RB's are obviously better engines - designed to handle boost, the KA's weren't. RB > KA-T, however if money is an issue, a ka-t setup may be a bit more practical.

BigVinnie · 10-25-2005, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimpleS14

Just want to see which one they prefer and maybe you can post to why you prefer that setup.

I would say a KA24det. It is cheap to forge the internals with eagle rods and wiseco pistons (under a $1000 for rods and pistons). You have a stroker crank with the KA so it will rev faster and produce more power at lower rpms being a 4cylinder, rather than an inline 6 cylinder.
Being that it is 4 cylinder engine it makes a better balance of front to rear chassi weight distribution. The inline 6 RB's weigh a bit more.
The KA has an abundance of after market support, most parts can be commonly found at your local wrecking yard.
There is a wide selection of engine management for the KA (AEM EMS, Biki ROM, Mega Squirt, even retunes from enthalapy)

Best reason why: KA performance will always be slightly more affordable due to the fact that you pay for 2 less cylinders than getting an RB..........
Shit it's 2 more of everything when you invest into RB, from injectors, to spark plugs, that stuff really starts to add up!!!!!!!!

Plus I enjoy the convenience of the USDM, knowing that I can go to my local kragen to pick up your basic bolt on's (water pump's, hoses, ETC.)

big-byrd · 10-27-2005, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

I would say a KA24det. It is cheap to forge the internals with eagle rods and wiseco pistons (under a $1000 for rods and pistons). You have a stroker crank with the KA so it will rev faster and produce more power at lower rpms being a 4cylinder, rather than an inline 6 cylinder.
Being that it is 4 cylinder engine it makes a better balance of front to rear chassi weight distribution. The inline 6 RB's weigh a bit more.
The KA has an abundance of after market support, most parts can be commonly found at your local wrecking yard.
There is a wide selection of engine management for the KA (AEM EMS, Biki ROM, Mega Squirt, even retunes from enthalapy)

Best reason why: KA performance will always be slightly more affordable due to the fact that you pay for 2 less cylinders than getting an RB..........
Shit it's 2 more of everything when you invest into RB, from injectors, to spark plugs, that stuff really starts to add up!!!!!!!!

Plus I enjoy the convenience of the USDM, knowing that I can go to my local kragen to pick up your basic bolt on's (water pump's, hoses, ETC.)

i said rb > ka-t. i still stand by this, however that's GENERALLY speaking of course. a build ka-t should outperform a stock rb, but if you level the playing field and both are either stock or built, the rb will win no holds barred.

i voted ka-t anyways just because it's the route i'm planning on taking.

drift freaq · 10-27-2005, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

I would say a KA24det. It is cheap to forge the internals with eagle rods and wiseco pistons (under a $1000 for rods and pistons). You have a stroker crank with the KA so it will rev faster and produce more power at lower rpms being a 4cylinder, rather than an inline 6 cylinder.
Being that it is 4 cylinder engine it makes a better balance of front to rear chassi weight distribution. The inline 6 RB's weigh a bit more.
The KA has an abundance of after market support, most parts can be commonly found at your local wrecking yard.
There is a wide selection of engine management for the KA (AEM EMS, Biki ROM, Mega Squirt, even retunes from enthalapy)

Best reason why: KA performance will always be slightly more affordable due to the fact that you pay for 2 less cylinders than getting an RB..........
Shit it's 2 more of everything when you invest into RB, from injectors, to spark plugs, that stuff really starts to add up!!!!!!!!

Plus I enjoy the convenience of the USDM, knowing that I can go to my local kragen to pick up your basic bolt on's (water pump's, hoses, ETC.)

Heh you don't read much do you Vinnie, If you had read the whole debate in this thread you would realize several of us have proved the weight different was not an issue car balance wise. You go on spouting the myth based on what you have heard and not experienced or read. Plus you do not even have correct info about the KA , stock KA rods are forged! A KA will rev faster? Do you even have any experience here? Stroker cranks rev slower not faster hahhahahhahha and they rev less!! I mean you sound like your reading off of other peoples posts that have not even done the work. If you so much as read you would realize KAT's are not cheaper. EVen a KAT proponent admitted that and he has done it.
Please do your homework before you come in here spouting stuff with no real knowledge to back it up besides conjecture.

BigVinnie · 10-27-2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Heh you don't read much do you Vinnie, If you had read the whole debate in this thread you would realize several of us have proved the weight different was not an issue car balance wise. You go on spouting the myth based on what you have heard and not experienced or read. Plus you do not even have correct info about the KA , stock KA rods are forged! A KA will rev faster? Do you even have any experience here? Stroker cranks rev slower not faster hahhahahhahha and they rev less!! I mean you sound like your reading off of other peoples posts that have not even done the work. If you so much as read you would realize KAT's are not cheaper. EVen a KAT proponent admitted that and he has done it.
Please do your homework before you come in here spouting stuff with no real knowledge to back it up besides conjecture.

It is still added curb weight. It may not be that much when you are pulling over 300CHP in a straight line. But it will defenitely increase lateral G force.
Any 4 banger will rev faster than an inline 6, you obviously werent paying attention to what I wrote spilner, it also makes power earlier.......
You need to put your tiny cock away.......

drift freaq · 10-27-2005, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

It is still added curb weight. It may not be that much when you are pulling over 300CHP in a straight line. But it will defenitely increase lateral G force.
Any 4 banger will rev faster than an inline 6, you obviously werent paying attention to what I wrote spilner, it also makes power earlier.......
You need to put your tiny cock away.......

you are really showing maturity here, how old are you ? It does not affect the handling of the car adversely, in fact Slide Squad Mark has been drifting a RB powered coupe for over a year. No front end plow!! Until you have real world experience with both of these engines for a real world comparison , you need to stop talking. I read your statement , you said and I quote: "You have a stroker crank with the KA so it will rev faster and produce more power at lower rpms being a 4cylinder," end quote. That is implieing , that the long stroke crank of the KA is going to rev faster. Do you even know how to build and engine for revving? The whole industry knows long stroke cranks rev slower and not as high!
The KA is notorious non fast revving engine , nor is it high revving.
The RB is not only smooth revving but is high revving. It was also put out a lot more torque and HP at any rev than a KA will when built to the same configuration , cam , intake, turbo size etc....
Funny how when proven wrong you resort to insults and name calling .

HolyShiznit · 10-27-2005, 04:50 PM

Hey Vinnie, if you had read this thread you would have realized that both Drift Freaq and myself have DONE the work on both of these engines. You are coming on here and not bringing hard facts about either engines. The KA does rev slower. Take a ride in my built KA, it revs slower than most other cars I am around INCLUDING the NEO RB25 I rode in. However, just because it "revs slower" does NOT mean that it won't obliterate cars that do. Case in point my car absolutely RAPED a supercharged S2000 from a roll on my high boost and low boost setting. Also the weight difference is negligible when you use proper dampened coilovers/springs. Also most mount kits put the motor close as is possible to the firewall. You ARE correct in saying that it DOES add more weight regardless. Which is true. So even if the RB made 20 more HP than a KA-T it would still have to lug around 150ish+ more pounds. Whether this would have a huge impact on handling has yet to be proven because NO ONE has skidpad numbers so it DOESN'T make any sense to argue this.

When it comes down to it the RB25 WILL MAKE THE MOST peak power. If you calculate the area under the curve however they end up being pretty close (KA vs RB).

Drift Freaq you know where I stand on this one. I think that people should just go with what is affordable to them at the time. If I had a single cam motor I wouldn't hesitate to swap to an RB25. If I had a good condition KADE I wouldn't hesitate to turbo that. It's all a matter of your choice and circumstance.

Kids are we done yet?

BigVinnie · 10-27-2005, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift freaq

you are really showing maturity here, how old are you ? It does not affect the handling of the car adversely, in fact Slide Squad Mark has been drifting a RB powered coupe for over a year. No front end plow!! Until you have real world experience with both of these engines for a real world comparison , you need to stop talking. I read your statement , you said and I quote: "You have a stroker crank with the KA so it will rev faster and produce more power at lower rpms being a 4cylinder," end quote. That is implieing , that the long stroke crank of the KA is going to rev faster. Do you even know how to build and engine for revving? The whole industry knows long stroke cranks rev slower and not as high!
The KA is notorious non fast revving engine , nor is it high revving.
The RB is not only smooth revving but is high revving. It was also put out a lot more torque and HP at any rev than a KA will when built to the same configuration , cam , intake, turbo size etc....
Funny how when proven wrong you resort to insults and name calling .

You are acting as if I'm gonna spend 10grand on my $2000 (bucket 240). That defenitely wont happen unless I am a millionaire. Fact is if you have that additional 180lb.s with the RB it does matter if you are riding on a suspension that has a spring rate lets say under 7KG front, 6kg rear. Well I mention this because most economy suspensions offer a spring rate for the under $1000( for people with a budget). Tghe point is any guy you know that has done the rb swap has defenitely made there suspension a little more rigid, I'm not at all saying that the 240 chassis cant handle the additional weight. The weight of the RB really isn't that bad as you stated, but it still remains instead of riding on a cheaper budget suspension you will still need to step up on the springs.
Other guys that stick with the SR or KA understand the that the level of difficulty isn't as hard as an RB. Besides Nissan designed the silvia/240 to utilize a 4cylinder for better control, and an almost equal weight distribution.

I appoligize if you are still reading the sentence wrong, but I will make it simple for you to understand..... 4 CYLINDERS REV FASTER THAN INLINE 6'S.
THE KA HAS AN ADVANTAGE HAVING A STROKER CRANK IT WILL PRODUCE POWER EARLIER THAN A HIGH REV CRANK...... I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand. Besides I like to shift early, I don't care too much for the loss in top speed due to it's low limiting redline, that doesn't bother me at all. Especially since alot of the KA24DET guy's are spankin the RB guys in 1/4 mile times, and at a fraction of the cost it took in parts.

BigVinnie · 10-27-2005, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyShiznit

When it comes down to it the RB25 WILL MAKE THE MOST peak power. If you calculate the area under the curve however they end up being pretty close (KA vs RB).

YES that is all I agree with and nothing else, a 6 BANGER will inevitably make more peak power......

Quote:

Originally Posted by HolyShiznit

Drift Freaq you know where I stand on this one. I think that people should just go with what is affordable to them at the time.

DING DING DING DING...... That was the only point I was trying to bring accross for the price it is the biggest bang for your buck in displacement. It all comes CHEAP for the KA.....

drift freaq · 10-27-2005, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigVinnie

You are acting as if I'm gonna spend 10grand on my $2000 (bucket 240). That defenitely wont happen unless I am a millionaire. Fact is if you have that additional 180lb.s with the RB it does matter if you are riding on a suspension that has a spring rate lets say under 7KG front, 6kg rear. Well I mention this because most economy suspensions offer a spring rate for the under $1000( for people with a budget). Tghe point is any guy you know that has done the rb swap has defenitely made there suspension a little more rigid, I'm not at all saying that the 240 chassis cant handle the additional weight. The weight of the RB really isn't that bad as you stated, but it still remains instead of riding on a cheaper budget suspension you will still need to step up on the springs.
Other guys that stick with the SR or KA understand the that the level of difficulty isn't as hard as an RB. Besides Nissan designed the silvia/240 to utilize a 4cylinder for better control, and an almost equal weight distribution.

I appoligize if you are still reading the sentence wrong, but I will make it simple for you to understand..... 4 CYLINDERS REV FASTER THAN INLINE 6'S.
THE KA HAS AN ADVANTAGE HAVING A STROKER CRANK IT WILL PRODUCE POWER EARLIER THAN A HIGH REV CRANK...... I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand. Besides I like to shift early, I don't care too much for the loss in top speed due to it's low limiting redline, that doesn't bother me at all. Especially since alot of the KA24DET guy's are spankin the RB guys in 1/4 mile times, and at a fraction of the cost it took in parts.

Vinnie, in the first place I understood your sentence , what you did not understand was your basing it on a theory of your own own conjecture. Some 4 cylinders do rev faster than a inline 6. The KA is not one of them. plus you have no actual experience with a RB. Where do you get the idea that a KAT puts out more bottom end power than a RB. Do you have comparitive dyno sheets of equally set up engines to prove it? I don't think so.
Where do you get your facts for KA guys spanking RB guys in the quarter mile? Hmmm I think you need to do a lot more reading. I do not see any 1000HP KA's running the quarter.Funny how there are 1000 hp Skylines.
People who setup their suspension for RB powered cars are using the same spring rates that most coilovers for our cars are sold with. No added expenses or differences there.
Also there is a KAT guy in this very thread who states the costs are the same not cheaper by going KAT. Again I think you base your arguement on your conjecture not backed up by real world experience.
I am not trying to convince you to spend any money here. I am just counterpointing your arguement with facts, based on my own real world experiences. I have run SR's I have run KA's, I own and run a RB , It did not cost 10k to setup. In fact I stated earlier in the thread the do it your self guy could get the clip for $2500 get a install kit for $1000 plus a pre wired harness for $300 that pretty much makes it a plug and play situation add another 1-2k for extras and your looking at $5500 do it yourself or $7500-8000 for a shop to do it for you. Not 10k and at that stated price you will be looking at close to if not 300WHP not crank but wheel HP.
Now I have experience behind all of this . Do you?

BigVinnie · 10-27-2005, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Now I have experience behind all of this . Do you?

Well if you want to know about me here we go....
First off I've been building/rebuilding NAPS-z/KA for about 4 years... been building engines in general as a hobby since I was 19, I am now 26. I have prior knowledge and experience mostly with datsun 510's, and swapping in KA's and SR's (I'm mostly Old School). I do understand the power the KA produces and so do most of the people in this forum. Or else this wouldn't of been a thread to begin with.
There is no beef as you would think there is with me in this thread, and at some point in my life I would love to drive an RB powered car, personally my opinion is Nissan didn't design the silvia/240 that way, then maybe it shouldn't be.....
I defenitely don't oppose the power output that the RB makes, and at the same time you shouldn't discredit the engineering that goes into the KA either. There are plenty of guy's in the KAT forums that have presented slips of 600WHP KA's and reaching the mid to low 10seconds.... That which would be comparitive to a guy running boost on his RB. Although the worlds fastest 200sx with the RB26det is runnin a 8.98 in the 1/4mile, ( I have the VID just need to find it). Vision Boy productions isn't falling to far behind with there estimated 9second KADET either, (since they've already built one that hit's low 10's.)
As far as comparing PEAK Horse Power Output there is no denying, the RB having 2 additional cylinders will infact make more peak power, but that doesn't mean that you can't allow other engines (KA24 or even the SR22) to compete, especially since all engines make power at different points in the power band (RPM range). In all means of competition you can't just label a specific engine that it is the best suited for all applications, that just isn't the case with the RB, or for any engine for that matter.
I was implying that for the money @ about $3500 I can build a KA24det that can infact compete with an imported rb25det.
No question about it the KA parts are much cheaper, and I specialize in KA, I think I know what I'm talking about.............. RB has it's advantages, but as far as KA being a USDM and having parts readily available, I'de rather chose something that is an easy fix, rather than waiting on downtime for some parts for an RB.

View Poll Results: RB25DET or Built KA-T?
RB25DET	63	48.46%
Built KA24DE-T	61	46.92%
Other (make a post about it)	6	4.62%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

10-20-2005, 12:09 PM	#65
sweet89s13 Zilvia Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: potsdam, ny Posts: 186 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	i have a sohc ka and i beat my buddies dohc ka with complete exhaust, intake, maf but i would still go for the rb just because of the shitloads of power to come within that block. power support is insane but it will cost you more but then again you pay for what you get that and the price will be around the same ball park give or take a few k's demand for rb's are low __________________ *SHIFT_SLIDE*

10-21-2005, 02:14 AM	#68
HolyShiznit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Age: 37 Posts: 44 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Ok this is all preference but whatever. I made 310 rwhp on my KA-T with my 4200 dollar set-up. That's 4200 dollars with the expansion built inside, IE big injectors, turbo, etc. That was stock cams, stock TB, stock intake manifold, stock unopened motor. I understand it could be done for cheaper, I understand people will flame me for spending that much anyways, but whatever. I personally say go with whatever is cheapest to YOU at the time. I found good deals on all my stuff so shrug. Also after having ridden in and played with a couple RB25's I don't know where this "amazing torque" comes from. 90% of the torque curves I have seen from them have LESS low end than a KA. They rev higher but I wouldn't say they create more torque, my KA is evident of that. Dont' get me wrong I like both motors, so I refused to vote. So ya, I guess my post has no relevance cause I like both of them, but oh well. __________________ 93' KA-T Sold, 00' Corvette Sold, 03' EVO Sold, 94' Supra sold, 02 Z06 Current

10-22-2005, 12:16 PM	#71
HolyShiznit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Age: 37 Posts: 44 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	At 8 psi my 240 was trapping 110 consecutively. I have never EVER been within more than a 10 wheel torque difference from horsepower on any of my set-ups. I have ridden in RB25 cars that were properly "stock" with simple intercooler/downpipe/exhaust changes. I was also judging it by the dyno graphs (so few exist) of S13's with RB25's. 90% of the time the RB25 makes a much greater variance of HP as compared to low end. Then again any number of things could change this. http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=133806 In my town it's the two KA-T's, three RB25's (one NEO), and one RB20. I like both engines, I think the RB25 sounds sexier hands down. But I don't think I would be pissed if I had either in my engine bay, they are both really good engines. __________________ 93' KA-T Sold, 00' Corvette Sold, 03' EVO Sold, 94' Supra sold, 02 Z06 Current

10-22-2005, 01:34 PM	#73
HolyShiznit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Age: 37 Posts: 44 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	That should breathe a lot better than, get that thing on the dyno. PM me the details of it when you do! __________________ 93' KA-T Sold, 00' Corvette Sold, 03' EVO Sold, 94' Supra sold, 02 Z06 Current

10-20-2005, 02:48 PM	#66
abuC Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mount Vernon, NY. Posts: 5 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I'd forget both and go with a 1jz-gte.

10-21-2005, 11:21 AM	#70
patrick10 Zilvia Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: ohio Posts: 173 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	4200 isnt expensive for 300 hp on a ka. people are just used to the prices of a turbo kit which are mostly rediculous. you could easily get 300 whp for a little over 3000.

10-23-2005, 12:36 AM	#74
evrae205b Zilvia Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: birmingham AL Age: 40 Posts: 165 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	ka-t is more practical as far as replacement parts and is cheaper to install and build. good enough reason fro me. there are other differences such as wieght distribusion, torque band ect. but thats all up to your personal preference. __________________ www.alabamagz.com http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2093248

10-23-2005, 07:53 PM	#75
Tenchuu Post Whore! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Oregon Age: 39 Posts: 2,474 Trader Rating: (8) Rides Gallery: Tenchuu Feedback Score: 8 reviews	i Auctually am looking at both, to get 300+HP our of both the RB25 is thousands cheaper than a KA-T kit. RB25=$2500 for a front clip, 1K for the install kit and then i have 250+/- HP add a FMIC, Greddy intake manafold, and a decent exhaust manifold, SAFC and AVCR the RB is going to be 300-350 For a 300+/- kit for the KA is is$ 4000+/- plus ECU tuneing plus if i go mutch higher i really need to gut the engine and get the internals good. then adding the other items i mentioned earler, the are auctually more expensive for the KA-tT intake/exhause manifolds/FMIC ki. the AVCR won't work so i would probibbly have to dump the SAFC that i have and get a system that plays nice togather. RB is cheaper, more complete kit, has more potential and cheaper aftermarket performance parts. So tell me again how the KA-T is better?

10-24-2005, 04:14 AM	#79
HolyShiznit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Age: 37 Posts: 44 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I think we are arguing for the same thing, however. If someone is not willing to piece together a turbo kit then I doubt they will have the mechanical and technical know-how to wire an engine and install it. That adds cost, because that is meaning that someone is going to be billed for the work. My motor lasted for 2 years unopened bottom end, lots of track/street racing/auto-xing. Not saying EVERYONE'S will last that long but hey, it happens more often than you think. Also my friends NEO RB25 developed rod knock within 2 weeks of it being up and running. Does that mean all RB25's are crap? Not at all! Shit happens. For the last time, either way it's gonna be a PITA. KA-T is definitely not the way to go if you are a n00b about modding cars. Importing an RB25 and having a shop professionally install it would put a smile much faster on your face than carefully selecting pieces and developing a kit for the KA. Personally I think both engines are dumb. As soon as I blow up my KA-T I want an LS1. Also those prices I quoted are available to 90% of the regular customers out there on various different sites. And they were the prices of my original pieces of equipment when I pieced my kit together 3 years ago. BTW: Get your car on the dyno Drift Freaq! __________________ 93' KA-T Sold, 00' Corvette Sold, 03' EVO Sold, 94' Supra sold, 02 Z06 Current

10-24-2005, 10:32 AM	#80
big-byrd Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mississauga, ON Posts: 9 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	RB's are obviously better engines - designed to handle boost, the KA's weren't. RB > KA-T, however if money is an issue, a ka-t setup may be a bit more practical.

10-27-2005, 04:50 PM	#86
HolyShiznit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Eugene, OR Age: 37 Posts: 44 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Hey Vinnie, if you had read this thread you would have realized that both Drift Freaq and myself have DONE the work on both of these engines. You are coming on here and not bringing hard facts about either engines. The KA does rev slower. Take a ride in my built KA, it revs slower than most other cars I am around INCLUDING the NEO RB25 I rode in. However, just because it "revs slower" does NOT mean that it won't obliterate cars that do. Case in point my car absolutely RAPED a supercharged S2000 from a roll on my high boost and low boost setting. Also the weight difference is negligible when you use proper dampened coilovers/springs. Also most mount kits put the motor close as is possible to the firewall. You ARE correct in saying that it DOES add more weight regardless. Which is true. So even if the RB made 20 more HP than a KA-T it would still have to lug around 150ish+ more pounds. Whether this would have a huge impact on handling has yet to be proven because NO ONE has skidpad numbers so it DOESN'T make any sense to argue this. When it comes down to it the RB25 WILL MAKE THE MOST peak power. If you calculate the area under the curve however they end up being pretty close (KA vs RB). Drift Freaq you know where I stand on this one. I think that people should just go with what is affordable to them at the time. If I had a single cam motor I wouldn't hesitate to swap to an RB25. If I had a good condition KADE I wouldn't hesitate to turbo that. It's all a matter of your choice and circumstance. Kids are we done yet? __________________ 93' KA-T Sold, 00' Corvette Sold, 03' EVO Sold, 94' Supra sold, 02 Z06 Current

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