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Tech Talk Technical Discussion About The Nissan 240SX and Nissan Z Cars |
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11-29-2011, 03:51 PM | #3391 | |
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waterjet cut lower control arm with joints strut relocating top mounts new tie rods knuckle bolt-on block 1700$ (Price in Estonia will be 1050€ plus 20% VAT) Parts shop MAX parts for that lock: Knuckle mod - 400$ Shipping the knuckles - 100$ Bump stop - 50$ ikeya inner tie rods - 150$ outer tie rods ( SPL ) - 230 $ pro control arm with tension rod - 550$ + modifying inner fenders ~1480$ The cost difference - 220$ The wisefab kit is not adjustable as much because it is only for drifting and you do not need to adjust everything if it is setup perfectly from the box with predetermined settings like toe and ride height, plus it has 3 selections for ackermann, don't bring it down before it is even released and tested by the public That aluminum rack holder is very neat! |
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11-29-2011, 03:58 PM | #3394 |
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paypal [email protected] $50 to reserve your set of SREB, for January delivery - shipping is free.
Thanks guys. I have not tested the offset ITR/rack spacers on my car yet...because I dont need them, I dont overcenter, my caster is too low for them. And you certainly cant combo those two items without having the ITR hit the LCA mounting bolt. Its really performing amazingly lately with all the new product, such a blast, so satisfying to get in and stand on it all day letting the suspension and steering parts do their job = ) However we are running some ITR/rack spacers on Ross Pettys car with good results - he loves loads of caster. Everyone has their own opinion, thats why its mind blowing to not have adjustable alignment. Everyone has different levels of power requiring different settings and for FD they change the settings at every track. Didnt the video say that you have to purchase additional parts to add ackerman to the wisefab kit? I dont recommend SPL outer tie rods or any tie rod end with an exposed bearing.
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11-29-2011, 04:11 PM | #3395 |
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I think there is still too little known about the Wisefab kit to be throwing around judgement.
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11-29-2011, 04:16 PM | #3396 | |
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Don't most competition cars run exposed rod end bearings? I am currently making my own arms for rear and use rubber boots like this: |
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11-29-2011, 04:53 PM | #3398 |
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True. Pro cars can afford to replace the bearings more often than privateers.
Im guessing you dont need the SREB if you have 1 inch rack forward, thats a lot (depending on the knuckle and settings). SREB was designed with not having to cut and weld in mind.
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11-29-2011, 05:24 PM | #3399 | |
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And with that all considered above, I am also under the impression that a control arm level with the ground allows for an almost spot on 'roll center' for a car? That is it provides an acceptable height of RC from the ground, while also keeping it close to the actual car center of gravity. To me overly correcting roll center can in fact put it way too low, and really increase that distance of RC vs CoG (which is also important). Again, just some musings. I mean there is a fair range of acceptable 'RC'...I just don't see how adding anymore than your estimate of my 25mm of RC adjustment helping a car with already flat control arms. I'm not trying to be a hater, just curious...I know how grassroots drift guys are quick to accept whatever they are told, whereas the grassroots grip guys think about a it a little more, so I do excuse my constant questioning...it's not doubting it's more curiosity. Couldn't that easily be fixed with some little rubber booties from Tractor Supply Company (or similar) (or like the ones Motary posted above). Performance wise I can't see how they could be recommended against for something so easily fixed. With that said, I know of PLENTY of farm equipment that had many years of strong service outside with oldschool rod ends and bearings, that still work and are great...I really can't see how leaving a PTFE lined and self cleaning bearing out in the open on a road car is really going to fail in a normal track and service life.
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11-29-2011, 05:33 PM | #3400 |
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Well codyace, your first question was "How are yours better than mine".
Thus, the statement that more roll center correction is available. This would obviously be for cars that are lower than yours. The ackerman changes are necessary for a double duty car as well, and quicksteer is actually nice on the roadcourse.
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11-29-2011, 06:20 PM | #3401 |
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OEM tie rod end, 2 reasons:
I recommend buying the cheaper part that lasts longer like MOOG tie rod ends which simply come with a boot thats made for it. I would caution that if a boot does not fit perfect you could retain moisture in it and thats bad too. (from my experience) Aftermarket tie rod ends get fine dust inside and slowly grind themselves loose, more on the tie rod ends than anywhere else because its the steering movement plus suspension movement double duty whereas other parts with exposed bearings...RLCA for example is just the suspension motion. Obviously super steering angle makes this worse. We setup our knuckle to work with the OEM style rod ends so the bumpsteer adjustment that some people may need from an aftermarket exposed bearing tie rod end is not necessary for combining with our knuckle. RC: Yes we can all agree that the easy rule of thumb is that if your arms are pointing up you're suspension performance is in trouble and if they are flat thats way better.
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11-29-2011, 07:04 PM | #3402 |
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Just to give an idea of how long the SPL outer tie bearings last I had mine for about 10k daily driven before they started developing a small amount of play. You can get replacements for about $30 (a pair) when they wear out.
Those eccentric rack spacers are nice. It's about time someone made them for a reasonable price..... sucks I just had my crossmember modified 20mm forward like Sy90.... Any idea how far these eccentric rack spacers move the rack forward? |
11-29-2011, 10:19 PM | #3403 | ||
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- I measured my 'correction' buy measuring how much I moved the arm down, and was told it was wrong...but now we're saying that's how PSM does it as well? -I admitted I was potentially wrong in how I measured it, however offered the reasoning being that in order to really measure true 'Roll Correction' you'd need to professionally plot the suspension points, discover instant centers, and then obviously draw their intersection with car centerline to deliver a roll center. I understand how to 'really' measure it, but was under the impression that most measured it by ball joint spacing vs actual measurment. So I'll re-ask my question: how are we all 'actually' measuring it? FWIW: If performance is at the heart of these products (which we all can probably agree these things are aimed at the the guys who are serious about these cars)....and even if these knuckles are correcting roll center almost 2 inches....wouldn't we all agree that the actual roll center is still below the ground, and that we should maybe be more focused at total setup than debating things that most guys couldn't even discern from in a set of knuckles? Quote:
Edit: I guess my point here is, once you drive a bunch of cars, you begin to really appreciate how well a 240 works in a 'quick steer' aspect. It's not a Ferarri, and never will be a porsche, but for me it's hard to hinge on small things like that when it's already vastly better. So with that all said, wouldn't better be a subjective answer? Without a doubt a welded knuckle is a nice solution, but to write it off as all encompassing is a bit unfair, especially with correction numbers and emphasis on stuff that could be overcome with more track time for 90% of the prospective buyers out there. (I wish I could type less sometimes, I'm just not smart enough)
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11-29-2011, 11:12 PM | #3404 | |
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Either way that does save some good cash on the big end by having the knuckle make the correction vs the tie rod end itself...which I think we all know is often a 'weak spot' with some of the lesserbands. I know if the SPL shaft busts I can get a new one for free, or drill it out and put a big bolt in and call it a day.
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11-30-2011, 12:38 AM | #3405 |
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Codyace....you just measure the distance between your spindle and your LCA, then subtract that from the distance between the spindle and LCA of a stock 240 (which I believe is somewhere around 3/4 of an inch), then you know how much you've dropped your outer pivot point.
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11-30-2011, 04:15 AM | #3406 |
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What is this a pissing contest on SPL tie rod ends? Really?
I just clean them off every month or so with WD40 like Kuah recommends and NO PROBLEMS what-so-ever.. Been around a year now and all is still good. I needed to get the misalignment in check and it's been a charm not to have my steering wheel steer itself when hitting bumps or dips on the road when driving hard. Sure OEM style is more reliable.. Anything OEM is more reliable, even suspension arms.. But sorry, the OEM stuff didn't have the functionality I needed.. So for what it is, its not that bad. |
11-30-2011, 05:21 AM | #3408 | |||
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Quote:
PSM's: Obviously you can see there is more correction there. By changing the angle of the lower arm, you directly effect roll center. I get your point that the 45mm drop is not linear to a 45mm raise of roll center height, however, it's still more drop of the outer pivot, thus more raising of the roll center. Quote:
A relatively low car will have messed up it's roll axis angle vs. mass axis angle as well, which causes increased understeer; more correction helps that as well. Quote:
Conclusion: Your knuckle setup is probably just fine for your setup, and perfectly functional. Things change when you go lower or have a road course/ drift car.
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11-30-2011, 11:07 AM | #3409 | |
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About the front lower control being flat to the ground, I think what you guys mean is that chassis and knuckle pickup points should be at same height, they aren't with a flat arm because the balljoint is a little higher. This is how the suspension looks like when we improved it in susprog for 2.68 degrees of camber change when body roll is 4 degrees, never mind the epic bump steer, but it is for good comparrison how the arm used to be: You will notice the angle of the strut axis has also been changed, from 5 to 15 degrees if I remember correctly I don't personally like the way roll center is raised with the long ball joints, It's much better to raise chassis pickup points or lower knuckle pickup point I will do a full post with measurements to get close to ( i.e not account measuring errors ) this kind of performance in the near future btw, what is the reason behind putting a 2nd bearing on the tension rod? The one between tension rod and control arm, what are the advantages? Last edited by Motary; 11-30-2011 at 12:07 PM.. |
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11-30-2011, 03:25 PM | #3410 | |
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There is so many combinations with the MAX pro knuckle. And there is one wisefab package with ackerman choice and without alignment choices, no choice to make the kit less expensive by mixing it with the end users existing investment in parts, no choice for different width and offset wheel fitments? Maybe people will love not having to think about their choices and they will be pumped on plopping down some cash for the full setup. Or maybe not, everyone buys one thing at a time from me, rarely in full sets. Dont get me wrong by pointing out the differences, Im very happy its not a cheap copy of what we do. For our sport this is addition is fantastic! We need more companies investing in R&D to supply ORIGINAL parts that were not previously available to the end users. The thought and time that went into wisefab's unique package is commendable and deserves serious consideration from enthusiasts who want to spend more money and less time testing different alignment settings. Job well done! Its not a bearing, its a solid steel rod end. Its function is to create an A-arm when locked down. To change caster, you simply loosen this solid rod end thats through bolted to the double shear LCA bracket. It pivots as the tension rod is adjusted and when the setting is finalized you lock everything down.
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11-30-2011, 05:21 PM | #3411 |
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That much engineering and that much money invested in a new suspension system that still doesn't have a 1:1 camber-gain:roll is insane. If wisefab really wants to engineer an improvement on current s-chassis offerings they should be building a dual-unequal A arm kit like the griggs and agent47 kits (also around $2000).
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11-30-2011, 05:30 PM | #3412 | |
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Quote:
And I've modeled moving the LCA mounting point up, surprisingly it does next to nothing for roll center. Increasing the the angle of the strut axis is an elegant solution, but then you either need a fabricated knuckle or modified strut housing to prevent excessive camber. And by the point you're doing that much work, you're better off just building a double A arm set up.
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12-01-2011, 01:04 AM | #3413 | |
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Moving the chassis mounting point up by 10-20 mm does very little that is true, clearance is a realistic issue that was not taken into account when solving this task. |
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12-01-2011, 02:04 AM | #3414 |
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Hey Motary,
if, "...we improved it in susprog for 2.68 degrees of camber change when body roll is 4 degrees" I hate to ask, but do you remember how bad stock was?
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12-01-2011, 05:04 AM | #3415 |
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You guys feel free to ask anything I love the development of S chassis suspension lately and try to help out as much as I can.
4 degrees of body roll in my s13 made camber from -2 to 3,30 degrees, making it a total of 5,3 degrees. PS! There are a lot of bugs with my calculations and I need to fix them. I will put this info back when it is fixed [/FONT] Last edited by Motary; 12-01-2011 at 12:20 PM.. |
12-01-2011, 05:52 AM | #3416 |
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Good stuff Motary, thank you!
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12-01-2011, 09:00 AM | #3417 |
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Epic post Bro!
Isn't it true that you can get just a touch of camber gain if at static ride height your ball joints are lower than your chassis mount points? Also what was your base line ride height either in ground clearance, or ground to one of the LCA chassis mount points. and again , epic post!
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12-01-2011, 11:48 AM | #3418 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Motary; 12-01-2011 at 12:42 PM.. |
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12-01-2011, 12:00 PM | #3419 |
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Check out post #385 on page 13 of my build thread in my sig. I did some modeling in performance trends roll center program and posted the results there, along with some ideas you might find interesting.
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12-01-2011, 12:48 PM | #3420 | |
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