This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread. - Page 17 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

*ManoNegra* · 02-12-2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SicBastard

"...and other minor modification may be required."

It looks like you could just grind the shit out of that corner without getting too close to anything structural from the pics you posted. Or is my perspective off?

That's something we're considering at the moment

Quote:

Unrelated question: can z32 spindles and iron s14 spindles use your same sphericle bearings?

yes, they're both interchangeable
we made them specifically for z32 uprights for Def's group buy
but a few people have used them on the s-chassis

edit: member's jr-ss build thread: http://zilvia.net/f/chat/286970-my-b...-lay-down.html

mmdb · 02-12-2010, 05:04 PM

Update: Stopped by Skullwork's again today. Thanks to Mano and Tower240sx for taking the time to take a look at the spindles. Very obliged

Bad news. The rear hubs do not work for the z32 rear e-brake kit. We threw around a few ideas how to make it work, but by altering the cable, milling down the spindle, etc. the cost was just not worth it. I'll talk to DW to see if they have plans to develop another set that will work, so I'll keep ya'll posted. In the meanwhile it'd be great if someone in the US were able and highly competent enough to develop a rear spindle huhuhuh.

Jakob · 02-12-2010, 05:14 PM

hmm that sucks i guess driftworks should put the option into the shop to buy the fronts only for people who use z32 drum brakes aka the euro spec stock ebrake on the s13

atutt · 02-12-2010, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

from what I understand Atutt is working with some chromoly on some knuckles. I'm sure he'll update us when he's made some progress.

That I am. Right now my biggest issue is finding the time off to do it. As I work full time. My friend, has the time to put things together, but lacks my necessary skills. So we're both trying to work around other things to get the first few initial prototypes made up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmdb

Update: Stopped by Skullwork's again today. Thanks to Mano and Tower240sx for taking the time to take a look at the spindles. Very obliged

Bad news. The rear hubs do not work for the z32 rear e-brake kit. We threw around a few ideas how to make it work, but by altering the cable, milling down the spindle, etc. the cost was just not worth it. I'll talk to DW to see if they have plans to develop another set that will work, so I'll keep ya'll posted. In the meanwhile it'd be great if someone in the US were able and highly competent enough to develop a rear spindle huhuhuh.

I will be sure to include accommodations for a working Z32 e-brake.
We're also looking at a second caliper option. As well as being able to use the 12.75'' rotors (with Z32 calipers) from the track edition 350z.

mmdb · 02-13-2010, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atutt

I will be sure to include accommodations for a working Z32 e-brake.
We're also looking at a second caliper option. As well as being able to use the 12.75'' rotors (with Z32 calipers) from the track edition 350z.

That'd be great if you can develop something like that. I'd opt for the z32 ebrake. Please keep us posted on your development.

GripTerror · 02-13-2010, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmdb

Update: Stopped by Skullwork's again today. Thanks to Mano and Tower240sx for taking the time to take a look at the spindles. Very obliged

Bad news. The rear hubs do not work for the z32 rear e-brake kit. We threw around a few ideas how to make it work, but by altering the cable, milling down the spindle, etc. the cost was just not worth it. I'll talk to DW to see if they have plans to develop another set that will work, so I'll keep ya'll posted. In the meanwhile it'd be great if someone in the US were able and highly competent enough to develop a rear spindle huhuhuh.

COUGH KUAH GET ON IT COUGH

Well skullworks could too i guess right

Guys dont forget a z32 shock mount option in the rear

I have no e-brake but i was wondering didnt dw have an extra bracket of sorts for an e-brake (was it hydro e-brake with an extra caliper or something)

PoorMans180SX · 02-13-2010, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

Man, I really wish someone had the connections to make cast aluminum drop knuckles for the rear. It's so simple and nice looking.

PoorMans180SX · 02-17-2010, 10:43 AM

Hey just to let you know guys, I was looking at the pictures of the Driftworks S15 with the knuckles installed, and by my calculations, at the ride height it is at, the knuckles place the roll centers darn near the ideal places. The rear one is about 2 inches below the diff (center of gravity is about the middle of the diff or a little higher), and the front one is right on the bottom of the crossmember (center of gravity being the crank centerline).

This makes the roll axis and the mass axis nearly parallel, which should (and does) make for a very neutral handling car.

BTW, you do NOT want your front control arms to be perfectly level. This causes positive camber gain during suspension stroke.

Pics so you don't have to go back to the first page:

Video that shows the front knuckles installed:

GripTerror · 02-17-2010, 03:13 PM

Eh I just saw the video... if the spindles are the ones in that video that give that much lock me not want.. i dont want that much steering lock.. wth... that's spelling nightmare on a road track condition... i dont want dorifto :S

mmdb · 02-17-2010, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GripTerror

Eh I just saw the video... if the spindles are the ones in that video that give that much lock me not want.. i dont want that much steering lock.. wth... that's spelling nightmare on a road track condition... i dont want dorifto :S

Well you don't have to turn your steering wheel that much in all corners... unless you might be auto-x'ing.

PoorMans180SX · 02-17-2010, 03:20 PM

hahaha, why? It's not like you have to use it.

It's still 2.5 turns lock to lock. Shouldn't be hard to get used to the quicker steering. Just ask mmdb, he loves it and he doesn't drift. You can install larger steering bumpstops too if you want.

EDIT: HAhaha, mmdb you just posted the same time I did.

mmdb · 02-17-2010, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

hahaha, why? It's not like you have to use it.

It's still 2.5 turns lock to lock. Shouldn't be hard to get used to the quicker steering. Just ask mmdb, he loves it and he doesn't drift. You can install larger steering bumpstops too if you want.

EDIT: HAhaha, mmdb you just posted the same time I did.

yeah way awesome. My arms don't get crossed up like before. I'm using SPL outer tie rods. I'm pretty happy with the adjustments as well as the quality. +1.

*ManoNegra* · 02-17-2010, 03:28 PM

What's the word on the rears Jimmi?
Are you keeping them or sending them back?

GripTerror · 02-17-2010, 03:35 PM

Yeah what's up with the rears.

Which inner tie rods did you use? I have Tein z33 inners. They are just slightly beefier than z32 oem ones.

mmdb · 02-17-2010, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GripTerror

Yeah what's up with the rears.

Which inner tie rods did you use? I have Tein z33 inners. They are just slightly beefier than z32 oem ones.

I'm using the Tein inner rods for the s14. I was told by DW that could be too short, but as long as I use the SPL outers I should be good. He was right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManoNegra

What's the word on the rears Jimmi?
Are you keeping them or sending them back?

I'm currently speaking with Ben over at DW. I sent him some pictures we took with the backing plate and the e-brake line being obstructed by the knuckle. He's going to get a set of z32 rear e-brake assembly so he can check them out. Ultimately I NEED (ok want) rear spindles... so either you guys over at Skullworks make them asap (I know probably not for a while) or I hand over the DW ones so you guys can modify them to work. That's if DW can't come up with a solution.

As I'm driving the car more and more, the car doesn't feel as balanced as it should. The front wheels load, and continue to carry the load through the corner. It's only passed corner exit that the rears feel loaded... and when that happens and I gas it the rear wants to slide out. Definitely needs some rear stiffness. So I really cant' wait to get the DW or equivalent in soon.

Btw I got my clutch installed... it wasn't too bad... it's just that the transmission is so much heavier than the KA transmission. On top of that I have an oil leak so I screwed up somewhere. I guess that's what this weekend is for.

*ManoNegra* · 02-17-2010, 03:43 PM

Sounds good, keep us updated

GripTerror · 02-17-2010, 04:23 PM

I still don't understand what the hell these things do? They extend the angle/lock for drifting more?

Or they just 'reposition' things? I was trying to understand it and I believe someone asked about massive caster moving the tie rod forward at one point vs the rack... or something like that.... therefore making the tie rod pushed forward... would then this move the tierod at the rack end forward as well to make it more parallel or am I imagining stupid things and that's not what it's for (if it even is a problem).

Explain to me this

thetopcow · 02-17-2010, 05:41 PM

I figured that with all the sus heads in here someone would know what to call this part, which does pertain to sus arms.

On aftermarket rear upper control arms you know the piece the hiem threads in, and then that piece threads into the arm? It is the piece that is threaded inside and out and allows for the alignment to be adjusted with out disconnecting the arm and turning the hiem.

I hope this is sufficient for someone to give me a common name so I can find some for some arms I am making for myself.

And if you know of a place that sells this piece in metric vs standard that is great, but standard is fine too.

*ManoNegra* · 02-17-2010, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetopcow

I figured that with all the sus heads in here someone would know what to call this part, which does pertain to sus arms.

On aftermarket rear upper control arms you know the piece the hiem threads in, and then that piece threads into the arm? It is the piece that is threaded inside and out and allows for the alignment to be adjusted with out disconnecting the arm and turning the hiem.

I hope this is sufficient for someone to give me a common name so I can find some for some arms I am making for myself.

And if you know of a place that sells this piece in metric vs standard that is great, but standard is fine too.

Basically a piece of pipe threaded in the inside
Baker calls them Weld In Adapters - bottom of the page

Rod End Seals, Weld In Adapters, Spacers And Reducers Rubber Boots Lock nut jam nuts

GripTerror · 02-17-2010, 06:20 PM

Someone answer my question

Another question to mmdb directly again, I am guessing you have 0 toe or slight toe in then with the new spindles if it has such turn in characteristics no? I run 1/8 (or was it 1/16) toe out on on the front of my s13... eh i bet with these spindles i wouldnt want that i guess and should run 0 or even toe in (used to run 0 toe front)

PoorMans180SX · 02-17-2010, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GripTerror

I still don't understand what the hell these things do? They extend the angle/lock for drifting more?

Or they just 'reposition' things? I was trying to understand it and I believe someone asked about massive caster moving the tie rod forward at one point vs the rack... or something like that.... therefore making the tie rod pushed forward... would then this move the tierod at the rack end forward as well to make it more parallel or am I imagining stupid things and that's not what it's for (if it even is a problem).

Explain to me this

Those are to correct "overcentering" of the steering. Overcentering is when there is so much steering lock that the tie rod "arm" of the knuckle moves past parallel with the tie rod, causing the steering to bind. This usually happens on the outside wheel on a super deep drift, where the maximum angle of a modified knuckle is used.

Those move the tie rod forward, making overcentering basically impossible because the tie rod arm of the knuckle will never be that far foward.

GripTerror · 02-17-2010, 07:36 PM

So.. its a good thing to get this thing ? huh lol

PoorMans180SX · 02-17-2010, 07:42 PM

Hahah, only if you really need it. If you don't use that much lock or you never experience overcentering, then there's really no need for them.

*Jonnie Fraz* · 02-17-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetopcow

I figured that with all the sus heads in here someone would know what to call this part, which does pertain to sus arms.

On aftermarket rear upper control arms you know the piece the hiem threads in, and then that piece threads into the arm? It is the piece that is threaded inside and out and allows for the alignment to be adjusted with out disconnecting the arm and turning the hiem.

I hope this is sufficient for someone to give me a common name so I can find some for some arms I am making for myself.

And if you know of a place that sells this piece in metric vs standard that is great, but standard is fine too.

I think you are talking about the adjuster. Poly performance sels them, but they are not cheep.
Heim adjusters
If you are thinking of building your own RUCA's it is cheeper to buy them.

mmdb · 02-17-2010, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GripTerror

Another question to mmdb directly again, I am guessing you have 0 toe or slight toe in then with the new spindles if it has such turn in characteristics no? I run 1/8 (or was it 1/16) toe out on on the front of my s13... eh i bet with these spindles i wouldnt want that i guess and should run 0 or even toe in (used to run 0 toe front)

0 toe up front. It's a combination of the steering ratio and the amount of roll center adjustment that makes me say the turn in sharp and stable. I kept the same alignment with the GP sports and it didn't feel as good as the DW spindles as it had less roll center correction and a greater steering ratio.

It really depends how you feel the car should handle. On tighter tracks I'd run a little bit more toe out in the front and less toe in in the rear. On higher speed tracks you'd might want to do the opposite. But again, it's whatever helps you build confidence in the driver seat and allows you to follow the racing line.

NewfoundlandDude · 02-18-2010, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longfellow

I just saw your post.

I foam'd the subframe at the same time I chopped the bushings, but the over all effect of both was more responisive rear and it felt like it had a little more bite. It also seem'd to turn in quicker and rotate faster. Thats all street driving though, I went to my first auto-x event and the car felt pretty good minus bumper steer from the stock tie rod set up.

I guess it's a little off topic, so pm if you'd like, but I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the subframe foam, as I was thinking about this + some chassis foam while everything is already disassembled. What foam did you use?

mmdb · 02-23-2010, 11:44 PM

Got in touch with Ben recently over at DW. Apparently they fitted the rear with a non-z32 brake assembly and assumed it would work... unfortunately it doesn't. Ben noted that it'll be a future modification in their design, but that doesn't really help me. So just to note, the DW rear spindles will NOT work with the z32 rear brake assembly.

Anyway, I went back to Skullworks and spoke with Mike and Juan. They'll be modifying the spindle to fit the e-brake cable through and create a custom set of sphericals for them. I'm pretty excited to see what these babies will do. Apparently Suzuki? aka scorch 15? lapped Tsukuba with a relative set of modified rear spindles. They look to be SP-tec? which is good news, considering the rear knuckle pivot points aren't "exclusive" to DW's design compared to sp-tecs according to Ben.

GripTerror · 02-24-2010, 08:44 AM

heh ill definetely be having to modify my custom wilwood rear brakes mounting as well then. Good to see progress though bro

PoorMans180SX · 02-25-2010, 10:58 AM

Good to know that I'll be able to have sphericals made if it comes down to buying DW knuckles.

articdragon192 · 02-25-2010, 11:11 PM

Sounds good. Can't wait to see the modded versions, as it means it'll be able to work on my car

Front roll center adjustment through hubs is almost non existent for my car. But hopefully some modded LCAs along with the remodels DW rear spindles would do wonders for my car. I wonder how different roll center adjustment is between your guys' MacPhearson strut design, and my multi-link rear.

02-12-2010, 05:04 PM	#482
mmdb Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 240sx Posts: 1,558 Trader Rating: (20) Feedback Score: 20 reviews	Update: Stopped by Skullwork's again today. Thanks to Mano and Tower240sx for taking the time to take a look at the spindles. Very obliged Bad news. The rear hubs do not work for the z32 rear e-brake kit. We threw around a few ideas how to make it work, but by altering the cable, milling down the spindle, etc. the cost was just not worth it. I'll talk to DW to see if they have plans to develop another set that will work, so I'll keep ya'll posted. In the meanwhile it'd be great if someone in the US were able and highly competent enough to develop a rear spindle huhuhuh. __________________ .25 till 3

02-17-2010, 10:43 AM	#488
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Hey just to let you know guys, I was looking at the pictures of the Driftworks S15 with the knuckles installed, and by my calculations, at the ride height it is at, the knuckles place the roll centers darn near the ideal places. The rear one is about 2 inches below the diff (center of gravity is about the middle of the diff or a little higher), and the front one is right on the bottom of the crossmember (center of gravity being the crank centerline). This makes the roll axis and the mass axis nearly parallel, which should (and does) make for a very neutral handling car. BTW, you do NOT want your front control arms to be perfectly level. This causes positive camber gain during suspension stroke. Pics so you don't have to go back to the first page: Video that shows the front knuckles installed: __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

02-17-2010, 03:20 PM	#491
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	hahaha, why? It's not like you have to use it. It's still 2.5 turns lock to lock. Shouldn't be hard to get used to the quicker steering. Just ask mmdb, he loves it and he doesn't drift. You can install larger steering bumpstops too if you want. EDIT: HAhaha, mmdb you just posted the same time I did. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

02-17-2010, 05:41 PM	#498
thetopcow Zilvia Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Bartlesville, OK Posts: 227 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	I figured that with all the sus heads in here someone would know what to call this part, which does pertain to sus arms. On aftermarket rear upper control arms you know the piece the hiem threads in, and then that piece threads into the arm? It is the piece that is threaded inside and out and allows for the alignment to be adjusted with out disconnecting the arm and turning the hiem. I hope this is sufficient for someone to give me a common name so I can find some for some arms I am making for myself. And if you know of a place that sells this piece in metric vs standard that is great, but standard is fine too. __________________ Facebook Link: https://www.facebook.com/brickhouseproductsllc

02-17-2010, 07:42 PM	#503
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Hahah, only if you really need it. If you don't use that much lock or you never experience overcentering, then there's really no need for them. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

02-12-2010, 05:14 PM	#483
Jakob Zilvia Junkie Join Date: May 2006 Location: deutschland Age: 32 Posts: 483 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	hmm that sucks i guess driftworks should put the option into the shop to buy the fronts only for people who use z32 drum brakes aka the euro spec stock ebrake on the s13

02-17-2010, 03:13 PM	#489
GripTerror Zilvia Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Age: 36 Posts: 685 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Eh I just saw the video... if the spindles are the ones in that video that give that much lock me not want.. i dont want that much steering lock.. wth... that's spelling nightmare on a road track condition... i dont want dorifto :S

02-17-2010, 03:28 PM	#493
ManoNegra Guild of Skullduggerous Intent Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Socal Posts: 7,841 Trader Rating: (48) Feedback Score: 48 reviews	What's the word on the rears Jimmi? Are you keeping them or sending them back?

02-17-2010, 03:35 PM	#494
GripTerror Zilvia Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Age: 36 Posts: 685 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Yeah what's up with the rears. Which inner tie rods did you use? I have Tein z33 inners. They are just slightly beefier than z32 oem ones.

02-17-2010, 03:43 PM	#496
ManoNegra Guild of Skullduggerous Intent Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Socal Posts: 7,841 Trader Rating: (48) Feedback Score: 48 reviews	Sounds good, keep us updated

02-17-2010, 04:23 PM	#497
GripTerror Zilvia Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Age: 36 Posts: 685 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I still don't understand what the hell these things do? They extend the angle/lock for drifting more? Or they just 'reposition' things? I was trying to understand it and I believe someone asked about massive caster moving the tie rod forward at one point vs the rack... or something like that.... therefore making the tie rod pushed forward... would then this move the tierod at the rack end forward as well to make it more parallel or am I imagining stupid things and that's not what it's for (if it even is a problem). Explain to me this

02-17-2010, 06:20 PM	#500
GripTerror Zilvia Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Age: 36 Posts: 685 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Someone answer my question Another question to mmdb directly again, I am guessing you have 0 toe or slight toe in then with the new spindles if it has such turn in characteristics no? I run 1/8 (or was it 1/16) toe out on on the front of my s13... eh i bet with these spindles i wouldnt want that i guess and should run 0 or even toe in (used to run 0 toe front)

02-17-2010, 07:36 PM	#502
GripTerror Zilvia Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Age: 36 Posts: 685 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	So.. its a good thing to get this thing ? huh lol

02-23-2010, 11:44 PM	#507
mmdb Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 240sx Posts: 1,558 Trader Rating: (20) Feedback Score: 20 reviews	Got in touch with Ben recently over at DW. Apparently they fitted the rear with a non-z32 brake assembly and assumed it would work... unfortunately it doesn't. Ben noted that it'll be a future modification in their design, but that doesn't really help me. So just to note, the DW rear spindles will NOT work with the z32 rear brake assembly. Anyway, I went back to Skullworks and spoke with Mike and Juan. They'll be modifying the spindle to fit the e-brake cable through and create a custom set of sphericals for them. I'm pretty excited to see what these babies will do. Apparently Suzuki? aka scorch 15? lapped Tsukuba with a relative set of modified rear spindles. They look to be SP-tec? which is good news, considering the rear knuckle pivot points aren't "exclusive" to DW's design compared to sp-tecs according to Ben. __________________ .25 till 3

02-24-2010, 08:44 AM	#508
GripTerror Zilvia Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Age: 36 Posts: 685 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	heh ill definetely be having to modify my custom wilwood rear brakes mounting as well then. Good to see progress though bro

02-25-2010, 10:58 AM	#509
PoorMans180SX Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Michigan Age: 33 Posts: 5,431 Trader Rating: (16) Rides Gallery: PoorMans180SX Feedback Score: 16 reviews	Good to know that I'll be able to have sphericals made if it comes down to buying DW knuckles. __________________ Build: http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=643065 Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

02-25-2010, 11:11 PM	#510
articdragon192 Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: West covina/ Irvine Age: 35 Posts: 6,789 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	Sounds good. Can't wait to see the modded versions, as it means it'll be able to work on my car Front roll center adjustment through hubs is almost non existent for my car. But hopefully some modded LCAs along with the remodels DW rear spindles would do wonders for my car. I wonder how different roll center adjustment is between your guys' MacPhearson strut design, and my multi-link rear. __________________ Need help? Click here Still stumped? Try this Can't find what you're looking for? Here you go.

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