kingkilburn

And you literally are an ass.

The law gives police the right to detain ANYONE who is suspicious. They all ready had the right to detain noncitizens but they had to prove they weren't citizens before they cuold detain them. That is not the case now.

You absolutely fail to comprehend what I am saying.

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aznpoopy

double post

aznpoopy

of course it is. the point is that it's racial profiling as wrong per se, but racial profiling stops are pseudo-legitimized under the the pretextual stop rationale delineated under whren v. US.

Whren v. United States

in other words, i didn't pull you over b/c you were hispanic, but i targeted you because you were hispanic (not that i would admit it) and then followed you around until you made a technical infraction (e.g. 1mph over speed limit) and then pulled you over for it, or something similarly retarded, which is 100% legal under whren.

"detain" is the initial stop. you have that backwards. you can be detained for any reason (e.g. 1mph over the limit - pretextual stop based in reality on racial profiling). upon such detainment, if reasonable suspicion exists, they can then inquire as to your immigration status.

ronmcdon

Prop 8 has been law after it was voted in Nov 08, so it is infact currently lawful.
It will remain so, until it's challenged in court & gets overturned.
It's been challenged in court once already but held.

If you look at Prop 22 a few years prior, it was more or less the same deal.
Courts INTERPRETED it as un-constitutional.

Imo, the constitution is important as far it's judicial interpretation.
The most you can complain about really is that the courts may be inconsistent and the constitution vague.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califor...sition_8_(2008)

California's State Constitution put Proposition 8 into immediate effect the day after the election.[4] The proposition did not affect domestic partnerships in California [5] or same-sex marriages performed before November 5, 2008.[6][7][8]

These protests led to several lawsuits being filed in the State Supreme Court and the Federal District Court. On November 13, 2008, the California Supreme Court asked California Attorney General Jerry Brown for an opinion on whether the Court should accept these cases for review and whether the measure should be suspended while they decide the case. On November 19, the Court accepted three lawsuits challenging Proposition 8, which consolidated into Strauss v. Horton.[158] When the Supreme Court upheld the voter initiative, a suit, Perry v. Schwarzenegger was filed in a Federal District Court in San Francisco. A trial as of January 11, 2010 is currently being held.[159]

g6civcx

Careful how you use "per se". It's a pet peeve of mine.

The officer on the scene has the right to "detain" anyone for any reason to control the scene.

Detention can include subduing, handcuff, and imprisonment.

You are not required to be given any rights while under detention as compared with being under "arrest".

kingkilburn

Prop 8 may be "law" but it is still extremely unconstitutional.

I'll say it again.
When you can justify taking one man's rights you can justify taking any rights from any man.

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jspaeth

Answer this question. A person is in the country ILLEGAL...they are breaking a law.


How is anyone supposed to find out that the person is here illegally if NO ONE IS EVER ALLOWED TO QUESTION THEM UNLESS THEY ARE BREAKING ANOTHER LAW?


So you are breaking a law by being here illegally, but you can't ever possibly get caught for doing that unless you do something ELSE illegal?

That literally makes no sense.


Just like the democrats, you provide no rational, common-sense way for determining who is legal and who is not.


I am not racist, if you are black, yellow, green, red or brown but are here legally, WELCOME!

If you are black, yellow, green, WHITE, red, or brown and are here ILLEGALLY, get the fuck out!


I am so sick of this bullshit. I have friends that have had to leave the country (EDUCATED people with PhDs studying and actually contributing in a MAJOR way).

Yet YOU are okay with them being kicked out bc they FOLLOW THE RULES, but people who knowingly break them are allowed to stay.


Fuck that, you make no sense.

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Daily driven

jspaeth

Also, nowhere does it say that a NON-CITIZEN has the right to evade being asked to show proof of citizenship.


It's like there is a loophole, you KNOW there is a loophole, and you just don't care.

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kingkilburn

They are taking my rights away under the guise that they are protecting me from some outside threat. That is what is wrong.

I made no comment on the issue of how to determine some one's citizenship. I'm sure I could come up with some kind of solution though.
I'm sorry your friends were deported but I have nothing to do with that and you shouldn't take it out on me for simply disagreeing with you.

As an answer to your question I would say do a proper investigation. That means you do not punish some one through imprisonment before you know if they are legal or not. It also means you do not take a citizens rights away under suspicion that they are not citizens.

Personally when it comes to immigration I am in favor of letting pretty much every one in. Unless there is a documented reason you should not be here why not? They should give'm all amnesty and citizenship.





I'm sorry if that seems disjointed. My thoughts are going a mile a minute in all different directions.





Edit

Why does any one have to show proof of citizenship on request? This is the land of the free not some fascist police sate.

You assume who ever you are talking to is a law abiding citizen until they prove otherwise. You don't go around arresting every "suspicious" person you come across.


Edit #2

Shouldn't the burden of proof lie with the court not the accused. Let them prove that I am not a citizen before arresting me. What would I do, leave the country?

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ronmcdon

well hey, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.
what you consider constitutional, rights, may not be universally accepted.
One need not look past politics to acknowlege this.
I don't always agree either, but the law is what it is.

Want something legally changed?
Vote, take it to court, and/or deal with it.
It's about all that can be done, as far as what's practical.

jspaeth

This statement is enough for me to realize that you are not worth even arguing with. Have fun.

Our country alread has enough trouble with our OWN poor. We don't need an influx of more and more poor, uneductated, unskilled people coming in.

Literally done responding to you after the above statement, as your intentions are clear.

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kingkilburn

ron - I would not belly ache if I didn't participate. I feel that those that do not participate have no valid opinion and have no right speak on the matter.

jspaeth - If you can't handle disagreement why did you even post? Please tell the world what my intentions are. Also I am debating. If you have taken this to the level of an argument please do go cool down before you get to emotional and make another personal attack.

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g6civcx

Okay, I have gone through the legal process for immigration to get my citizenship. It took me over 17 years and more than $35,000 in legal fees.

From my personal and legal experience, the US immigration system is fuct. The law is obscure. The courts are underfunded and overworked.

I would like to put any of you through the process and see what your experience would be.

And it's not like I came here for economic prosperity. I am here as the direct result of American foreign policy. My family was forced to serve for the US military. When the US pulled out, it was stay/go to jail/die or leave. No other country would take us because we are political refugees.

I stay out of jail. I work hard. I pay my taxes. I volunteer. I spent most of professional career serving veterans and the public.

The laws don't bother me. The public mentality that illegal immigrants are criminals and a strain public resources bother me.

In my personal experience, 95% of undocumented immigrants just want to work and pay taxes.

It's easy to blame someone/something for our problems. If an illegal immigrant who doesn't speak the language and have no education steals your job, why can't you get a better job?

99% of the general population can't steal my job. I worked hard to get my job. Why can't you?

If you look at tax filings, some undocumented immigrants actually pay taxes. How many naturalized people evade taxes, or do other crimes?

If you want to take out 95% of the good people to target the 5% criminal population, this will not even make a small dent in the current problems in the US. It's not even a drop in the bucket.

I've worked on the US Congressonal budget. The US wastes hundreds and thousands of trillions of dollars on non-defense spending. Nobody can do anything because the people who are sucking the money are very powerful and entrenched.

g6civcx

My solution:

Grant amnesty to everyone here or wants to come here. Create a national registry of immigrants. Put them on probationary status. Do not give them welfare. If they commit a crime, deport them forever. Require them to purchase health insurance.

Tax them double the rate of citizens.

Make them pass a 12-grade English proficiency exam and deport if failed, but then you'd have to also deport like half of the citizens as well.

That should take care of most of your concerns.

LimeLite Racing

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amdnivram

Well it may be the idea, but how do you think people will get chosen to dhow their identification. I would rather not live here than having to constantly prove my residency. Not because its such a hassle but because its an obvious invasion of privacy. We might as well wear armbands.

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ronmcdon

My solution isn't all that different.

Reorganize immigration.
Allow those who want to come, with conditions.
They need to demonstrate they can speak the language with some degree of proficiency.
They need to prove they're productive members of society.
(proof of employment, credit score, no criminal record, etc).
Give positive preferential treatment to established/educated proffesionals in demand in our country.

Offer this at a reasonable cost, maybe $5k/head.
Better the needed money goes into our government's pocket than human traffickers.

Do not offer citizenship outright.
Offer a probabtionary work permit that monitors them for whatever duration deemed neccesary.
Tax them as would any other citizen.
Double taxes would just encourage tax evasion and/or illegal immigration, so I am not really for this.

What I'm not really comfortable about is immigrants sending a good portion of their income back to family/friends in their home country.
That simply can't be good for our economy.
(Would encourage inflation perhaps?)
Their finances should probably be more tightly regulated.

Agreed with health insurance.
Give them drivers licences if needed be and make damn well sure they get legit auto insurance.

kingkilburn

The problems with gaining citizenship are why I say give everyone instant citizenship. My only requirement would be that you speak or are actively learning to speak English(I know that part is controversial so save it for it's own thread).

It would be as simple as going to the DMV and signing the paperwork.

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g6civcx

Before we can do that we need to establish English as the official language. Right the US does not have an official language. We just happen to speak English because it's convenient.

I disagree with the credit score. This mechanism is meant to measure how good you are as a consumer, not how good you are as a citizen. Maybe they are the same? But the credit score was developed by private companies to measure who would be good candidates to take money from.

We already have this in the visa program so it's no different than what we have now.

It already costs almost this much in fees. The problem is nobody knows what the fuck paperwork to file so lawyers make like $50k/head.

Tax evaders already evade no matter what the tax rate is. Make them earn their keep.

It would be good if those countries are buying US exports. We have to start making stuff people want to buy first though.

We already have tax laws. This is not different from what we have now.


Most of the stuff you suggest we already have. It's just that the system is so fuct nobody knows that these things exist.

g6civcx

99% of the general population do not speak proper English. "Proper" English is defined by English textbooks published in ENGland.

We speak a slightly different dialect called American English.

LimeLite Racing

Bullshit. English is the same language throughout the "English" speaking countries. The "King's English" blah blah blah... it's all the same shit. In America, we speak English. If I go to Mexico, and speak English I would not be understood. Fortunately I don't live in fucking Mexico. I live in AMERICA. IN AMERICA, WE SPEAK FUCKING ENGLISH.

I would be able to understand a person in England as much as I would be able to understand my next door neighbor.. (that is if he isn't a mexican who doesn't speak English)

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ronmcdon

no its not the same.

differences are subtle but nonethless there.
I.E. Color spelt Colour, paycheck spelt paycheque.

It's not like an Englishment won't be able to function in the US, or vice-versa,
but the differences are nonetheless there.

kingkilburn

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theicecreamdan

Have you tested this? It would be easy, but there will be some adjustment necessary. Easier than going from spanish to english. I have met ZERO mexicans, mexican americans, french, german, etc tourists who I couldn't communicate with.

Language isn't the barrier to your communication issues.

Because this deserves to be repeated.

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jspaeth

I will come back into the discussion.

I have 2 problems with illegal immigrants, NEITHER OF WHICH is "they take our jobs".


1) Use many of the publicly funding things in this country without paying taxes (they are literally breaking the backs of the healthcare facilities in the Southwest).

2) Letting in $20 million+ Mexicans become citizens overnight does NOT provide any incentive for them to assimiliate. Like we have seen over and over again.


I have a problem with Mexicans who want to BRING MEXICO here. If you want to come here and be an American fine.


Do you see millions of Swedish immigrants coming to the US and having rallies and waving Swedish flags and speaking only Swedish?

No, I thought not.

How can we grant citizenship to another $25 million (mostly) poor people, when we can't even take care of the poor that are currently here (without stealing money from those who are successful)?

The Democratic Party wants these people legalized PURELY because they know that it generates enough votes to give them an absolute majority.

Solution:

If you are here, you can be a "guest worker" or whatever, but you MUST pay taxes.

If no taxes paid, NO (ZERO) access to any public benefits (healthcare, etc.).

Build a fence to stop people from coming in illegally. In the future, anyone caught coming in illegally is immediately deported.

EVERY PERSON (including current US citizens) must AT ALL TIME (not jsut while driving) carry either a US Driver's License or other proof of citizenship.

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kingkilburn

#1 They pay taxes on the things they buy and on the legitimate jobs most of them do have. Really what the problem is here is a flawed healthcare system.

#2 Society is who dictates assimilation. The government can do nothing to further this goal. We should be outraged at the reconquesta BS but most people(read politically correct scared white people) want to roll over and let them be. We should also be outraged at the Arab Muslims who bring their archaic chauvinistic customs here and KILL their own daughters for not doing what they are told.

Welcome back to the discussion.

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Karlitos

This thread seemed to turn away from the original topic of SB1070 and now just a general immigration discussion. I will now post MY POV in replies to post after my first post.

Yes the process is silly, expensive, a joke, and mostly impossible if you don't know what your doing. So you hire a broker who takes half your money. Not fair but will get you citizenship EVENTUALLY. Which is what we want, right? Legals and not illegals.

Why else would they come for if not for opportunities? Most are not here to commit crimes, they are here to work their asses off and support their families here or in their home country.

Refugees are a different story, and must actually meet certain requirements before they are accepted as a refugee. Middle Eastern' and Indians aren't coming by way of refuge, but of normal legal or illegal immigration. Yes illegals are other races besides mexican. The U.S. is too busy to worry about immigration when they have bigger issues such as the economy, where illegals are trying to help. And no illegals don't have it easier. Most lived paranoid trying to stay away from trouble and wondering if their job will get raided by the BP.

Thats just wrong. Its like saying it's wrong to learn about a different culture where the students taking the classes are Mexican that have been white-washed and trying to grow back to their roots. Kids in Mexico enjoy and love to take english/US History classes why does the US deny that kids here. Its an elective you choose to take it and should have be conscious of the course material, if taking in Junior or Senior High.

They do have value, to learn about the history of a culture weather it be asian, mexican european. If this were to be fair it should end classes of Euro history since they too controlled US soil once. But its not practical to take away them because they were white. Thats not fair.

It does feel like we are moving toward racism and its not right. Its happening in San Diego as well. It's not dumb it's called winning votes. Population in these cities in Hispanic, you do something that they support and you win votes. They're against something thats wrong in the first place so stand up to get what's right. Like when the SUNS used the "Los Suns" Shirts they showed support but now for boycotting they hardly sold tickets because people are afraid to leave and that must be fixed. People are just trying to do the right thing, their not supporting illegal immigration but demanding for the system to be fixed.

Most illegals don't receive any benefits, and most also pay taxes, making them tax payers. They don't feel deserving they are equal and demand equality to a certain point and full equality if they are legal.

I don't know what college but chicano studies usually means culture, mexican history would be the war with the US and the loss of land because of Santa Ana and his greedy personality. And yes all governments have done something wrong but the new law is worse then wrong.
Its called being informed and mature about the topic. Take it how you like it but most are just stated facts of what happened. Books are usually written by white people or white-washed mexicans and are show bias to america. Books in mexico are worse towards Santa Ana since he is the one that messed up. Where else can you learn? College is usually accredited by an organization that approves their curriculum what better source to learn from?

It is, and thats the wrong part, it should target general illegals not hispanics. Coyotes go through anywhere they can with no guarantees. The best way is to pay off an agent in a booth like they did in San Ysidro a couple of weeks ago.

except most already pay taxes. and the way things are going not much is going to get done with current political leaders.

It's called stereotypes. People get mad when mentioned but most likely fill them. It's life get use to it, thats on the people not the government and will most likely not change.
People are here because they see opportunities to live better. If you want to get rid of people their are some undeserving legals as well. And americans make the rules that others don't like.


its late I'm tired ill add more later. They're is just so many things wrong in this thread most people have no clue. read my first post as i think its more informational as to why. I'm just trying to fix the people that have no clue what they're saying.

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Touge Noob S13

Hey karlitos, I've taken a "Chicano studies" class and I didn't learn shit about my peoples history. All they talked about is "the white man is putting us down" and that we are "Aztecs". If I disgreed with what they said I apperntly was "white washed".

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amdnivram

I think the classes really vary depending on the school. Education is not equal and "lower colleges" will have a greater amount of bias or atleast less rationality when it comes to solutions/reactions. Its the same for class like women studies and african studies in which men or white men are the oppressors and still to blame.

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kingkilburn

Most mexicans are not aztec but one of the many tribes that they themselves took over. The aztecs were from the US southwest not mexico.

sounds to me like chicano studies is the same as womens studies or black history, just about a different people the white man has kept down.

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