The fabrication thread. - Page 125 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

91white_ka · 05-28-2011, 05:43 PM

Didn't feel like looking the same as everyone else with my tubs so I thought I would share.

sr20sean · 05-28-2011, 05:47 PM

someone has those

Chamb-O · 05-28-2011, 08:30 PM

High mount I did recently

still uses the stock supports

(bov not pictured here)

GSXRJJordan · 05-28-2011, 08:34 PM

Those look a lot like the tubs I made for my S14 years ago (I took the idea from Impulse Engineering's S13), except I didn't throw away the torsional rigidity of my frame in the most crucial part:

I used to have "standard" trailer-style tubs, but they didn't give me enough room for overflow tanks and intakes, barely had enough for charge piping.

I cut out the old wheel wells, leaving the rad support/upper frame rails intact so it didn't move. Put my 18x10+0 wheel at full lock and full compression, and measured how much space the tubs actually needed (leaving a 1" gap for deflection/diff tires/etc). Then welded in a 1/2" square tube frame, made templates, and boxed it.

Then bondo/paint:

sr20sean · 05-28-2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chamb-O

High mount I did recently

still uses the stock supports

the pop ups still work?

Chamb-O · 05-28-2011, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr20sean

the pop ups still work?

yeppers

here is a close up of that area

91white_ka · 05-28-2011, 09:29 PM

Jordan. Your tubs are really nice and all. However the car I am dealing with was in a front end collision. Plus I had to make brackets for the s14 koyo I had laying around and on top of that I don's see the loss in rigidity being a huge problem for the s13. A car that already has understeer problems.

Here are more pics of some tubs I did on a S14 (motor still in the car)

STR8E180 · 05-28-2011, 09:30 PM

that gold heat reflective stuff where did u get that from?

codyace · 05-28-2011, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STR8E180

that gold heat reflective stuff where did u get that from?

HRP Gold Heat Reflective Racing Film

GSXRJJordan · 05-29-2011, 12:34 AM

If you don't think boxing the frame rails together at their furthest distance is important, I don't know what to say. Seriously, just connect the radiator support at least.
I shouldn't have to say it, but don't let the radiator be a stressed member, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

HRP Gold Heat Reflective Racing Film

This is the real shit (although that stuff is what most people run)
Heat Reflective Tape NEW!

$100/linear foot. Be VERY sure your surface is clean before applying either of them, the adhesive isn't very forgiving, and you don't want to fuck up lol.

STR8E180 · 05-29-2011, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

HRP Gold Heat Reflective Racing Film

how well does it work?

at the moment i got a heat shield to protect my abs ive also got my down pipe heat wrapped and a turbo heat bag for the turbine housing

im sure thats enough but i wouldnt mind adding more heat protection if it helps

duffman1278 · 05-29-2011, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STR8E180

how well does it work?

at the moment i got a heat shield to protect my abs ive also got my down pipe heat wrapped and a turbo heat bag for the turbine housing

im sure thats enough but i wouldnt mind adding more heat protection if it helps

Are you planning to run a lot of heat? Or running a big turbo for endurance type races? Because that gold is over kill imo. Yes the thermal conductivity is high but it should only be used for true race applications where heat transfer is an issue

GSXRJJordan · 05-29-2011, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duffman1278

Are you planning to run a lot of heat? Or running a big turbo for endurance type races? Because that gold is over kill imo. Yes the thermal conductivity is high but it should only be used for true race applications where heat transfer is an issue

Get serious. Doesn't do anything for conduction. That shit helps any time there's radiant heat though, and it's not prohibitively expensive.

I don't like using heat wrap on manifolds since it lowers the already low life of fabricated headers, so I did half the firewall, all the way down past the cat hump. Used 3sq ft, cutting little sections to fit into each nook and cranny with little to no waste.

Before doing that (with SR) I couldn't drive the car in sandals because the floor would get too hot... one touch with my heel or the ball of my foot off the pedal and I'd be pissed I wasn't wearing shoes. After painting the bay and doing the heat film, it was cooler on the driver's side than the passenger's.

godrifttoday · 05-29-2011, 06:51 AM

^
your daily is the s14?

Gription · 05-29-2011, 11:46 AM

Jordan, do you have any more solid info on front end structures that maintain good rigidity? I did something similar but boxed in as much of the new metal as I could. Basically I cut everything between the frame rails and fender rails from the wheels forward and ended up with this.

I havent had any issues and its seems to be holding up good and sturdy. I've seen a few people running front ends like this with no issues. I was sceptical on the setup myself after I did it so I stood on the rad support before I put the radiator in and was able to bounce up and down with no visible flexing in the front end. Not saying that's a fail proof test or anything but one would think if there were any issues they would be visible during that.
I know I should have used plates on the firewall for the strut tower supports and the frame rails weren't boxed in yet in that pic. Other than that, any tips/advice for next time?

godrifttoday · 05-29-2011, 12:23 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but after the Strut towers ( towards radiator) there is not much stress on the chassis or whatever it might be called? And also after the rear shock towards Tail lights? That's y some people cut them up.

GSXRJJordan · 05-29-2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

^
your daily is the s14?

I used to, 2008-2009. Crashed it 1/2010 on my way to work, started the FD project.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gription

Jordan, do you have any more solid info on front end structures that maintain good rigidity? I did something similar but boxed in as much of the new metal as I could. Basically I cut everything between the frame rails and fender rails from the wheels forward and ended up with this.

I havent had any issues and its seems to be holding up good and sturdy. I've seen a few people running front ends like this with no issues. I was sceptical on the setup myself after I did it so I stood on the rad support before I put the radiator in and was able to bounce up and down with no visible flexing in the front end. Not saying that's a fail proof test or anything but one would think if there were any issues they would be visible during that.
I know I should have used plates on the firewall for the strut tower supports and the frame rails weren't boxed in yet in that pic. Other than that, any tips/advice for next time?

I just answered a PM about this lol. The issue is not the frame rails bending down, and a strut tower bar stops the frame rails from separating from each other. The issue is torsion ~ as you introduce cornering loads, one frame rail wants to go up, the other wants to go down. A triangulated structure is the only way to stop the frame from twisting, and all sports cars have this.

I guarantee that with all these 1/2" tube structures I'm seeing, if you jack the car up on one corner of the frame you'll see the chassis visibly flex. Try running a piece of masking tape or string across the strut towers, and jack the car up. If it stays taut, you're probably ok, but in my experience without a good front structure it'll bow and slack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

Correct me if I'm wrong, but after the Strut towers ( towards radiator) there is not much stress on the chassis or whatever it might be called? And also after the rear shock towards Tail lights? That's y some people cut them up.

People cut that shit out because they're allowed to, and they replace it with tubed structure. These are the same people with full roll cages as well, which greatly reduce chassis flex.

atutt · 05-29-2011, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

Get serious. Doesn't do anything for conduction. That shit helps any time there's radiant heat though, and it's not prohibitively expensive.

I don't like using heat wrap on manifolds since it lowers the already low life of fabricated headers, so I did half the firewall, all the way down past the cat hump. Used 3sq ft, cutting little sections to fit into each nook and cranny with little to no waste.
.

I'm so glad someone else gets this concept.... I love when people wrap stainless exhaust parts... lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

I just answered a PM about this lol. The issue is not the frame rails bending down, and a strut tower bar stops the frame rails from separating from each other. The issue is torsion ~ as you introduce cornering loads, one frame rail wants to go up, the other wants to go down. A triangulated structure is the only way to stop the frame from twisting, and all sports cars have this.

I guarantee that with all these 1/2" tube structures I'm seeing, if you jack the car up on one corner of the frame you'll see the chassis visibly flex. Try running a piece of masking tape or string across the strut towers, and jack the car up. If it stays taut, you're probably ok, but in my experience without a good front structure it'll bow and slack.

People cut that shit out because they're allowed to, and they replace it with tubed structure. These are the same people with full roll cages as well, which greatly reduce chassis flex.

I won't use anything less than 1''x.090'' for bumper supports and 1.5''x.090-ish for structural.

I think anything less and you're asking for problems.

GSXRJJordan · 05-29-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atutt

I'm so glad someone else gets this concept.... I love when people wrap stainless exhaust parts... lol

I won't use anything less than 1''x.090'' for bumper supports and 1.5''x.090-ish for structural.

I think anything less and you're asking for problems.

Yup, 1.5" tube (.090" is common, do see some .120" wall sometimes though) is what's used for front bash structures most of the time. Plate the frame, do nutserts or weld in nuts, then bolt on your structure. Inch and a half tube is WAY stronger than the OEM frame in these cars lol.

atutt · 05-29-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

Yup, 1.5" tube (.090" is common, do see some .120" wall sometimes though) is what's used for front bash structures most of the time. Plate the frame, do nutserts or weld in nuts, then bolt on your structure. Inch and a half tube is WAY stronger than the OEM frame in these cars lol.

I agree.
I often toy with the idea of making a tube frame (well half tube frame) s-chassis... But I doubt I'll ever get around to doing it.

BlazedGlory · 05-29-2011, 06:19 PM

Man I've been waiting for someone to spill that raw material info for a while so I can try my hand at a bash bar setup. Thanks guys!

How do you guys feel about turbo blankets?

bookoo · 05-29-2011, 06:23 PM

Gah I love this thread! Wish I could weld!

atutt · 05-29-2011, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlazedGlory

Man I've been waiting for someone to spill that raw material info for a while so I can try my hand at a bash bar setup. Thanks guys!

How do you guys feel about turbo blankets?

All you had to do was ask! lol

I don't know much about turbo blankets. Sorry boss.
But I can tell you that wrapping cast is different than wrapping stainless.
Stainless doesn't play well with heat. In fact it hates it. Cast doesn't really care.

BlazedGlory · 05-29-2011, 06:35 PM

I didn't pm anyone, but I asked twice in this thread =P. I was beginning to think it was a big secret heh. Is it necessary to use DOM or just EW tubing? If stainless hates heat why is it used for exhaust work so often? Would it be better to use ceramic coated mild steel or something?

atutt · 05-29-2011, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlazedGlory

I didn't pm anyone, but I asked twice in this thread =P. I was beginning to think it was a big secret heh. Is it necessary to use DOM or just EW tubing? If stainless hates heat why is it used for exhaust work so often? Would it be better to use ceramic coated mild steel or something?

I never noticed the question, lol

I personally prefer DOM for everything. I won't touch EW tubing.

Truth be told. A ceramic coated mild steel manifold is actually much better suited for the job. Stainless is mainly used for two reason that I can think of. They think it won't rust. And it looks so pretty when it's welded. All the oohs and ahhs about having a colourful stack of dimes... Which actually is an indication of air contaminating the the surface of the cooling weld.

And in all reality. I'd still rather build a SS piece because it does weld so nicely.

GSXRJJordan · 05-29-2011, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlazedGlory

Man I've been waiting for someone to spill that raw material info for a while so I can try my hand at a bash bar setup. Thanks guys!

How do you guys feel about turbo blankets?

Turbo blankets are great ~ the turbine manifold is a big cast piece, and the hotter it stays the better it works. The downpipe and manifold is another story altogether.

Quote:

Originally Posted by atutt

I never noticed the question, lol

I personally prefer DOM for everything. I won't touch EW tubing.

Truth be told. A ceramic coated mild steel manifold is actually much better suited for the job. Stainless is mainly used for two reason that I can think of. They think it won't rust. And it looks so pretty when it's welded. All the oohs and ahhs about having a colourful stack of dimes... Which actually is an indication of air contaminating the the surface of the cooling weld.

And in all reality. I'd still rather build a SS piece because it does weld so nicely.

Luke and I were just talking about this the other week.

Heat characteristics aren't the problem with cast, it's the scaling. When you heat cycle mild steel, carbon from inside the metal makes it's way to the inside, and then flakes off. This is disasterville for a turbo manifold since it all ends up in the turbo. People will always point to the Aussie's who love the steam pipe stuff (all mild steel manifolds), but anything can work for a short amount of time - doesn't make it correct/better.

Ceramic coating handles heat very well, and you can always wrap cast stuff, but you can't effectively ceramic-coat the inside of a turbo manifold. That, and the fact that stainless is so much lighter, is why they're all fabricated stainless.

I vote for ceramic-coated stainless manifolds as the best all-around choice. If you're supporting a large turbo, support it with some real bracing and run a flex pipe, and it'll last.

D.Adams · 05-29-2011, 07:17 PM

Just to post what i did on my friends car for some help and show what i did.

I started off with making some 1/4'' plates that i welded NUT's to the back side then welded them to the end of the frame rails.

I also sleeved the frame to give a some more support for the side frame rail bars on the bash bar

then i made the mount's for the side frame rail bars.

the frame rail mount bars finished.

</A

I used 1 3/4 .090'' wall tubing for the bash bar. I didnt have axcess to a tube bender so i pie cut / angle cut to make it work the way we wanted to. Once the bumper is on you cant see any of the bash bar.

Bottom tube of the bash bar.

</A

Top tube of the bash bar

</A

the finished bash bar. I think i have more pictures of the building of the bash bar. I will post them if i do,,

Something else i made for his FMIC

I welded a 1'' tube with some tabs across the front bumper support.

cured13 · 05-29-2011, 07:55 PM

What was the size of that cooler?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chamb-O

atutt · 05-29-2011, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSXRJJordan

Luke and I were just talking about this the other week.

Heat characteristics aren't the problem with cast, it's the scaling. When you heat cycle mild steel, carbon from inside the metal makes it's way to the inside, and then flakes off. This is disasterville for a turbo manifold since it all ends up in the turbo. People will always point to the Aussie's who love the steam pipe stuff (all mild steel manifolds), but anything can work for a short amount of time - doesn't make it correct/better.

Ceramic coating handles heat very well, and you can always wrap cast stuff, but you can't effectively ceramic-coat the inside of a turbo manifold. That, and the fact that stainless is so much lighter, is why they're all fabricated stainless.

I vote for ceramic-coated stainless manifolds as the best all-around choice. If you're supporting a large turbo, support it with some real bracing and run a flex pipe, and it'll last.

Unless you coat the inside and outside of stainless it's a bad idea.
The ceramic coating keeps the heat in the material. Essentially it becomes a giant heat soaking manifold.. Stainless doesn't play well with excessive heat. Because it expands and contracts a lot more and faster than mild steel.. So coating just the outside of stainless isn't a great idea. Actually, I would advise against coating it at all. Or wrapping it for that matter.

I'm trying to find the article on this.

And stainless is heavier. Not lighter.
a 1''thick 12''x12'' plate of SS is 42.06lbs
The same plate of mild steel is 40.8lbs
The same in cast is 37.2lbs

GSXRJJordan · 05-29-2011, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atutt

And stainless is heavier. Not lighter.
a 1''thick 12''x12'' plate of SS is 42.06lbs
The same plate of mild steel is 40.8lbs
The same in cast is 37.2lbs

This is offset by the fact that you use thinner tubing lol.

05-28-2011, 05:43 PM	#3721
91white_ka Banned from the Marketplace Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: New Orleans, La Age: 32 Posts: 615 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	A different kind of tub Didn't feel like looking the same as everyone else with my tubs so I thought I would share.

05-28-2011, 08:30 PM	#3723
Chamb-O Leaky Injector Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Parker CO Age: 34 Posts: 144 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	High mount I did recently still uses the stock supports (bov not pictured here) __________________ http://chambolikerambo.wordpress.com/

05-28-2011, 08:34 PM	#3724
GSXRJJordan Post Whore! Join Date: May 2006 Location: << 626 >> Posts: 9,135 Trader Rating: (19) Rides Gallery: GSXRJJordan Feedback Score: 19 reviews	Those look a lot like the tubs I made for my S14 years ago (I took the idea from Impulse Engineering's S13), except I didn't throw away the torsional rigidity of my frame in the most crucial part: I used to have "standard" trailer-style tubs, but they didn't give me enough room for overflow tanks and intakes, barely had enough for charge piping. I cut out the old wheel wells, leaving the rad support/upper frame rails intact so it didn't move. Put my 18x10+0 wheel at full lock and full compression, and measured how much space the tubs actually needed (leaving a 1" gap for deflection/diff tires/etc). Then welded in a 1/2" square tube frame, made templates, and boxed it. Then bondo/paint: __________________ Jordan Innovations has a new web site! www.JordanInnovations.com -- All your favorite FD Pro Drifters love it, trust me -- www.JordanInnovations.com

05-29-2011, 06:51 AM	#3734
godrifttoday Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: los angeles Age: 37 Posts: 3,120 Trader Rating: (82) Feedback Score: 82 reviews	^ your daily is the s14? __________________ NEED Bolt kits for your car?

05-29-2011, 11:46 AM	#3735
Gription Zilvia Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: South FL Posts: 297 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	Jordan, do you have any more solid info on front end structures that maintain good rigidity? I did something similar but boxed in as much of the new metal as I could. Basically I cut everything between the frame rails and fender rails from the wheels forward and ended up with this. I havent had any issues and its seems to be holding up good and sturdy. I've seen a few people running front ends like this with no issues. I was sceptical on the setup myself after I did it so I stood on the rad support before I put the radiator in and was able to bounce up and down with no visible flexing in the front end. Not saying that's a fail proof test or anything but one would think if there were any issues they would be visible during that. I know I should have used plates on the firewall for the strut tower supports and the frame rails weren't boxed in yet in that pic. Other than that, any tips/advice for next time? __________________ www.gentlemenstreetclub.tumblr.com \| www.mattpommell.blogspot.com

05-28-2011, 09:29 PM	#3727
91white_ka Banned from the Marketplace Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: New Orleans, La Age: 32 Posts: 615 Trader Rating: (5) Feedback Score: 5 reviews	Jordan. Your tubs are really nice and all. However the car I am dealing with was in a front end collision. Plus I had to make brackets for the s14 koyo I had laying around and on top of that I don's see the loss in rigidity being a huge problem for the s13. A car that already has understeer problems. Here are more pics of some tubs I did on a S14 (motor still in the car)

05-28-2011, 09:30 PM	#3728
STR8E180 Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 317 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	that gold heat reflective stuff where did u get that from?

05-29-2011, 12:23 PM	#3736
godrifttoday Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: los angeles Age: 37 Posts: 3,120 Trader Rating: (82) Feedback Score: 82 reviews	Correct me if I'm wrong, but after the Strut towers ( towards radiator) there is not much stress on the chassis or whatever it might be called? And also after the rear shock towards Tail lights? That's y some people cut them up. __________________ NEED Bolt kits for your car?

05-29-2011, 06:19 PM	#3741
BlazedGlory Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Canton, GA Posts: 370 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Man I've been waiting for someone to spill that raw material info for a while so I can try my hand at a bash bar setup. Thanks guys! How do you guys feel about turbo blankets?

05-29-2011, 06:23 PM	#3742
bookoo Zilvia Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: tennessee Age: 32 Posts: 276 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	Gah I love this thread! Wish I could weld!

05-29-2011, 06:35 PM	#3744
BlazedGlory Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Canton, GA Posts: 370 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	I didn't pm anyone, but I asked twice in this thread =P. I was beginning to think it was a big secret heh. Is it necessary to use DOM or just EW tubing? If stainless hates heat why is it used for exhaust work so often? Would it be better to use ceramic coated mild steel or something?

05-29-2011, 07:17 PM	#3747
D.Adams Post Whore! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Lake Havasu City Arizona Age: 37 Posts: 2,587 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	Just to post what i did on my friends car for some help and show what i did. I started off with making some 1/4'' plates that i welded NUT's to the back side then welded them to the end of the frame rails. I also sleeved the frame to give a some more support for the side frame rail bars on the bash bar then i made the mount's for the side frame rail bars. the frame rail mount bars finished. </A I used 1 3/4 .090'' wall tubing for the bash bar. I didnt have axcess to a tube bender so i pie cut / angle cut to make it work the way we wanted to. Once the bumper is on you cant see any of the bash bar. Bottom tube of the bash bar. </A Top tube of the bash bar </A the finished bash bar. I think i have more pictures of the building of the bash bar. I will post them if i do,, Something else i made for his FMIC I welded a 1'' tube with some tabs across the front bumper support. __________________ “About the time we think we can make ends meet, somebody moves the ends.” ―Herbert Hoover The build http://zilvia.net/f/builds-builds-on...u-city-az.html Owner of NVS Fabrications

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