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LOUD NOISES A place for political mudslinging, Pro/Anti legalization, gay marriage debate, Gun control rants, etc. If it's political, controversial, or hotly debated, it goes here. No regular Off-Topic stuff allowed. READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING! |
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07-22-2014, 02:05 PM | #1 |
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Israel Invading Palestine
I've been watching the crisis in Gaza for awhile now. I am just amazed at the US media only portraying the Israelis as the victims.
Curious as to what are fellow Zilvian's thoughts. Proceed.
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07-22-2014, 02:27 PM | #2 | |
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Also, more importantly... Vs. |
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07-22-2014, 02:54 PM | #3 |
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^^^Is that what's going on over there? I've always wondered why it is that, we, as a nation have always took Isreal's side when it was them encroaching upon more & more Palestinian land...
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07-22-2014, 03:11 PM | #4 |
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Both sides are guilty. I know is not politically correct and I have Jewish friends but truth be told both sides are crazy as loons.
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07-22-2014, 03:21 PM | #5 | |
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However, people (especially over there) stop caring when Palestinians start kidnapping and murdering teenagers, setting off bus bombs, suicide bombs, hostage takings and launching rockets and motors at civilian targets. For the longest time the PLO, Palestine Liberation Organization was the representative force of the Palestinian movements. Yasir Arafat was the head clown and surprisingly he could never quite finalize a peace negotiation - turns out he never wanted too. He became a billionaire off the movement and his importance completely relied on distrust and animosity between Palestine and Israel. Once he died, the Palestinians began to vote into political power members of HAMAS, the Iranian backed jihadist terrorist group. Unlike the politically driven PLO, these guys are far out Al Qaeda crazy fundamentalists. If Hamas and Al Qaeda didn't have Jews and Americans to kill, they would be killing each other as they are on different sides of the Islam coin (Catholics vs Protestants). So for me, I see the Israelis as an extension of modern, civil western culture. They are loyal allies and are really only there because Europe tried to fucking kill them all off in the first half of the 20th century. |
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07-22-2014, 03:27 PM | #6 |
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It is amazing how much money the US dumps into Israel every year for no benefit to any American citizen. Israel is quickly becoming the new Silicon Valley, all thanks to money from the US.
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07-22-2014, 03:33 PM | #7 | |
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Its no different then 140,000 Iraqi Civilians killed in Iraq over the past 10 years. https://www.iraqbodycount.org/ |
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07-22-2014, 03:42 PM | #8 | |
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At least Israel is helping kill terrorists... instead make them like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraqi, Egypt, Ethiopia, Gaza, etc. Country U.S. Total Assistance FY 2012, Afghanistan 12,885.50M Israel 3,100.10M Iraq 1,940.10M Egypt 1,404.00M Pakistan 1,214.90M Jordan 1,135.30M Ethiopia 870.10M Kenya 749.20M Colombia 644.30M Haiti 510.40M West Bank/Gaza 457.40M South Sudan 444.30M Russia 440.90M Somalia 419.60M Tanzania 402.00M Congo (Kinshasa) 388.40M Uganda 352.40M Nigeria 335.90M Sudan 298.10M South Africa 274.70M Mozambique 274.00M Ukraine 273.30M Yemen 258.50 M Bangladesh 256.80 M Liberia 247.10M |
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07-22-2014, 03:44 PM | #9 |
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Land to build military bases on.
Maybe the Palestinians would calm down if they were given their own country? The US sure was quick to carve up Yugoslavia and give the Albanians their own land in the heart of a country they did not belong in in the first place. Now the US has their largest military base there. Pretty sure the Palestinians deserve their own country a lot more than Albania. But I guess that would not be convenient. |
07-22-2014, 04:51 PM | #12 | |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E...icot_Agreement
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I still don't know what you are talking about? Kosovo?
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07-22-2014, 04:56 PM | #13 | |||
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We have bases in Kenya?
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It's all about the end goal. Europe feared a unified Yugoslavia post Cold War. Yugoslavia always sat in an interesting position between the US and the Soviets. With the Soviets gone, the US no longer needed Yugoslavia and was focused on the Middle East. Europe did not want another aggressive, financial broke and antagonistic military power in their midst. Israel is a key, stable US/Western Ally in a rather unstable shit hole. Why would we not support them? Every Arab "democracy" we have supported in the last 5 years has become a US hating shit hole. Ever look at our other Arab allies, like Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Jordan? Trust me, their Governments are not eager to give sovereignty back to the people. Irrelevant. We should be putting bases in Taiwan and Poland. Quote:
Why again do Palestinians deserve a country? Israel has only fought a dozen plus wars for the region and had US/UN intervention not take places, they had driven everyone into the sea/surrounding countries by now. Should we lobby to give back the South West to Mexico, Mexico to Spain, or the whole country to the "Natives"? |
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07-22-2014, 05:50 PM | #14 |
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Herein lies the problem and it goes as far back as WWI. The Brirish Empire was shrinking and they set out a mandate to divide up the Arab world territories they held which did include present day Israel. Now the whole mandate was kind of crazy in the first place because a lot of the Arabs, Palestinians, Iraqis etc... Where City states and Nomads. much of Isreal / Palestine was exactly that combo.
Iraq for example should not exist as a country because it consists of three separate factional regions , Shite territories, Sunni Territories and Kurdistan. The only reason it was a country was because it was held together by a totalitarian dictator. Now Jerusalem happens to be one of the few places that before then end of WWII was home to Jewish, Islamic and Christians that lived alongside each other in peace. Though the Islamics did have there Mosque on the mount atop the ruins of the Jewish ancient Temple. None the less there were Jews in this region at the time and there were radical Zionist Jews that did engage in random terrorist activity for the sake of re establishment of an Israeli homeland. I don't want to hear arguments against this either because several early Israeli statesmen were actually part of these groups prior to statehood and that is a documented fact. Needless to say at the end of WWII when what was left of the Jewish concentration camp victims were released honestly and this is a bit said to say no country really wanted to take on the burden of these displaced people. A majority of who had no home to go back to nor desire to go back to where they had been torn from. Under the British Mandate , the allies were able to carve out the state of Israel which at that point was not a part of any country per se and was populated by Nomadic peoples. The first two things that happened though was the newly created Arab countries and the kingdoms who were for the most part Islamic immediately decided not to recognize Israel as a country and to all but declare war out right. Originally Israel had agreed to let Arabs and Palestinians live in Israel, but the minute hostilities broke out the new Israeli's started getting concerned about this population and this population started feeling uncomfortable and started leaving Israel. Problem was the Arab countries did not want the Palestinians and stuck them in refugee camps not allowing citizenship in their countries either. Hence the escalation of the situation. Now without getting into to much more explanation there would be several short wars in the end with the Israeli becoming the victors and annexing the North bank, Golan Eights, Gaza Strip. Problem with this is these were not mandate designated territories for the state of Israel. They were Israel's claim to the truthful actual ancient Israel thereby creating a whole other issue. Now some of these territories they were supposed to give back but what they would do is bulldoze whatever was there and build there own settlements on disputed land. The idealogical idea behind this being " once we have established our own towns we will have a reason and excuse not to give it up. I should add that if they did they would bulldoze the settlements before leaving. It's all a lot of political one up man ship. While I consider them our allies I do feel they do not help their own situation. Can I blame them? They do live a state of constant alertness if not terror for the rights to their country. Do I support the Palestinian claim that it was the Palestinians country before? No they were a Nomadic population that knew no boundaries. Do they deserve a state today? Sure, if they can ever hammer out an actual solid government to run it. Which I don't think they can. Thereby leading to my previous statement and elaborating on it to say both sides are letting the crazies run the show to a certain extent. The only difference being the Israeli tend to be more educated and with education brings rationale and less crazy. Radical Islamists seek out the poor and uneducated because they are easily influenced and have nothing to lose and only hope to gain. They promise this hope and sell it down the river.
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07-22-2014, 06:12 PM | #15 | |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939 Even ISIS blames the British. Should have listened to Lawrence of Arabia.
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07-23-2014, 02:09 PM | #17 |
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So Russia keeps getting sanctioned and dragged through the mud for things that no one has any evidence they are responsible for, while here we have a full-blown one-sided war and everyone is just letting it slide.
World politics are goofy. |
07-23-2014, 04:38 PM | #18 | |
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this man speaks the truth!!
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07-23-2014, 05:30 PM | #19 | |
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This is bookmarked thank you sir..
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07-23-2014, 07:07 PM | #20 | |
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Israel is "fighting terrorism" just like we've done in Afghanistan and Iraq for 11 years. Don't you think the Taliban and ISIS/Al Qaeda would calm down if we just give them their own country? |
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07-23-2014, 07:41 PM | #21 | |
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07-24-2014, 01:46 PM | #22 | |
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terrorism? the Indians were considered terrorist when the whites pushed them off their land..
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07-24-2014, 02:12 PM | #23 |
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Wow, did you fail to read my post. Egypt's role started in 1947 with the declaration of not recognizing Israel as a country and going to war with them. That is one of the primary causes that started the flood of Palestinian refugee's out of Israel. I do not see Egypt accepting Palestinians today as citizens. I also see Hamas factions alive and flourishing in Egypt today and the Islamic government has no problem with it. Hamas is the main Islamic militant faction causing current hostilities between the Palestinians and the Israelis.
The detente days of Egypt died with Anwar Sadat and who was a brilliant statesmen that saw the futility of the original Egyptian position and sought real change. I might also add that though Egypt had a relatively non militant position under Hosni Muburak he actually abused and bastardized what was left by Anwar Sadat essentially destroying a lot of the achievements. It ( Egypt, Israel and the Middle East) was closer to the real establishment of a Palestinian state and peace with Israel when Sadat was alive. It was also why he was assassinated. The hard liners in the Arab world could give a rats ass truthfully about the Palestinians . They are merely pawns in their bigger plan. The elimination of Israel as a country and the spread of their idealism. You may not like this but is a truthful assessment of the political situation of the region (without here from
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07-24-2014, 02:40 PM | #24 |
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but Israel has nukes, none else does, why doesn't the rest of the Muslim world understand that?? you can't really destroy Israel....
catch 22 is would they use one of their 150+(according to jimmy carter) nukes in such close proximity to their country??
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07-24-2014, 08:05 PM | #25 | |
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You don't see Serbia, Cuba or Venezuela making the bomb... |
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07-24-2014, 09:18 PM | #26 | |
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Just want to say, I could listen all day to history lessons from you. Kudos for the well worded / resourceful responses. |
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07-24-2014, 10:35 PM | #27 |
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There are some valid points throughout thread, but ask yourselves if Mexico or Canada had the views as the Palestinians would you feel comfortable? Our government is full of appeasers, one side banging the drums of war and the other waving the flag of liberal bullshit. Regardless of what side we support, there must be compensation. In the form of money or support when the U.S. government wants to rage war. The Palestinians cant pay the U.S. enough, and lack the strategic bases and abilities to rage war on a large scale. So who would you support?
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07-25-2014, 03:03 AM | #28 | |
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You really either are completely ignorant of geopolitics and mid eastern politics or you are just choosing to obtuse for the sake of argument. What is going on right now was instigated by a kidnaping and killing of 3 Israeli teenagers by the radical Islamic group Hamas. This is Hamas's actions that have caused retaliation leading to escalation. The Israeli offered a cease fire and the Hamas rejected it. Once again like I said earlier the Palestinians are being used as Pawns by the radical Islamists and Arab countries. I said this earlier if the Palestinians could screw together a manageable government not overrun by radical Islamic Jihadists they might have a fighting chance at establishing a homeland. Just throwing money a them does not work and is part of or failed foreign policy in that region in the past. You can't fix something that is not willing to change or be fixed . No appeasing, no apologies harsh cold reality in your face.
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07-25-2014, 12:18 PM | #30 |
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What really upsets me is the fact that people are saying how inhumae the IDF and Israel are, but yet, the Hamas are firing missiles from Homes, Schools, Hospitals, etc. of Palestinians. The minute you begin firing rockets from those locations and using your own people as "launch stations", all bets are off and they immediately become military targets.
And worst yet, half the rockets the they have don't even penetrate into Israel............. |
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