Future of Private Health Insurrance - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

EDacIouSX · 09-30-2013, 08:15 PM

Obamacare is around the corner. My dad's barber just received word from his health provider that his monthly recurring bill will increase by $600 dollars to $990. A customer also said that his health insurance is increasing by $400 a month. I've yet to receive my new fees for 2014 which I will receive sometime in December as I do every year.

Has Anyone received any kind of GOOD news from Obamacare who purchases a private health plan?

***S14DB*** · 09-30-2013, 10:46 PM

Insurance Company's are not going to give up an opportunity to fuck all of their customers and blame someone else.

drift freaq · 09-30-2013, 11:02 PM

I am actually looking at getting my Insurance through the exchange because it might be cheaper than my Blue Cross which is expensive

tiggertsi · 10-01-2013, 07:39 AM

the only good news i've read about or heard is that there are still people who are opposing it and trying to get it taken down, which it should be. and i am one of the supporters of the opposition to obamacare. if our government gave a rats ass about affordable healthcare maybe they should have looked into legislation that actually solved the problems that cause healthcare to be so high, like corporate greed, corruption and disproportionate amounts of profit coming from the insurance companies. but no they just make it easier to fuck us and make it punishable, economically, to not have insurance which alot of people are having problems with already. i love my country but i am ashamed of this government.

K_style · 10-01-2013, 07:44 AM

I heard Obama stating from his conference yesterday that "You can't shut down Obamacare. It's the law"

How sad.....

tiggertsi · 10-01-2013, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K_style

I heard Obama stating from his conference yesterday that "You can't shut down Obamacare. It's the law"

How sad.....

i agree with thomas jefferson about the "law" ............

Quote:

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

theronin · 10-01-2013, 01:59 PM

My guns are ready, bring on the civil war. This is utter horseshit.

yetijeff · 10-01-2013, 02:22 PM

There is not good news pretty much everyone i know is fucked. Personally it doesn't affect me whatsoever because I'm single with no kids. It was at no cost to me before and is at no cost to me after, my company thankful gives a shit and covered a lot of the increase in rates themselves

Hatemy7 · 10-01-2013, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiggertsi

i agree with thomas jefferson about the "law" ............

That fucking guy deserves to burn in hell. OBAMACARE IS BULLSHIT

Quote:

Originally Posted by theronin

My guns are ready, bring on the civil war. This is utter horseshit.

My Ninja I am ready for that shit

cz750
ar 15's
M4's
9mms

shit load of ammo...

Lets get shit popping

***S14DB*** · 10-01-2013, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yetijeff

There is not good news pretty much everyone i know is fucked. Personally it doesn't affect me whatsoever because I'm single with no kids. It was at no cost to me before and is at no cost to me after, my company thankful gives a shit and covered a lot of the increase in rates themselves

No, no, no... They are supposed to reduce you to 29hrs a week and get rid of your healthcare because it's to expensive.

roboticnissan · 10-01-2013, 03:49 PM

Do you see the next president having obamacare removed?

Hatemy7 · 10-01-2013, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roboticnissan

Do you see the next president having obamacare removed?

MF would have my vote instantly

tiggertsi · 10-01-2013, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roboticnissan

Do you see the next president having obamacare removed?

no. i can only see it getting worse just based on historic precedent.

roboticnissan · 10-01-2013, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiggertsi

no. i can only see it getting worse just based on historic precedent.

Agreeed big time.

theronin · 10-01-2013, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S14DB

No, no, no... They are supposed to reduce you to 29hrs a week and get rid of your healthcare because it's to expensive.

One of my two jobs has already implemented this. Punish people who want to work, good fucking game America.

sidewaysil80 · 10-01-2013, 04:53 PM

Just got the notice in the mail...my premium increased $94 a month. Thanks a fucking lot.

yetijeff · 10-01-2013, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theronin

One of my two jobs has already implemented this. Punish people who want to work, good fucking game America.

Well good thing they didn't. It's sad what this country has become. I would go more in depth about it but I'm at work... To pay for all those that aren't... Lol (not funny tho)

mechanicalmoron · 10-01-2013, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiggertsi

the only good news i've read about or heard is that there are still people who are opposing it and trying to get it taken down, which it should be. and i am one of the supporters of the opposition to obamacare. if our government gave a rats ass about affordable healthcare maybe they should have looked into legislation that actually solved the problems that cause healthcare to be so high, like corporate greed, corruption and disproportionate amounts of profit coming from the insurance companies. but no they just make it easier to fuck us and make it punishable, economically, to not have insurance which alot of people are having problems with already. i love my country but i am ashamed of this government.

You're right about the problems, and that obamacare is gutless. The insurance companies wrote most of it.

But, as someone with pre-existing conditions, who is still on my parents health insurance, being allowed to stay on it untill I'm 26 and not be turned down for a pre-existing condition are both REALLY big deals.

The solution is not shut the government down and run the country into the ground. Repealing a law is fine, wasting a LOT of legislative time and money repeatedly pretending to try to repeal it when the math simply does not agree with you, and then throwing a hissy fit and defunding the whole country because not everybody will give you what you want? Not acceptable. If they have the numbers to repeal it, we can have that talk, but they don't, and they're basically trying to hold the whole country hostage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatemy7

That fucking guy deserves to burn in hell. OBAMACARE IS BULLSHIT

My Ninja I am ready for that shit

cz750
ar 15's
M4's
9mms

shit load of ammo...

Lets get shit popping

"I'LL RUIN THE COUNTRY/KILL ANYONE I WANT, UNTILL I GET WHAT I WANT!"

You should run for congress, with that sort of openly anti-american sentiment. I'm sure you could find a bank that would profit from civil war, and who would back you.

You would fit right in with those aggressive, delusional clowns.

AFSil80 · 10-01-2013, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K_style

I heard Obama stating from his conference yesterday that "You can't shut down Obamacare. It's the law"

How sad.....

If that were the case, Jim Crow laws would still be in effect and his mother would've been working the street corner for sleeping with a black man.

theronin · 10-01-2013, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

You're right about the problems, and that obamacare is gutless. The insurance companies wrote most of it.

But, as someone with pre-existing conditions, who is still on my parents health insurance, being allowed to stay on it untill I'm 26 and not be turned down for a pre-existing condition are both REALLY big deals.

The solution is not shut the government down and run the country into the ground. Repealing a law is fine, wasting a LOT of legislative time and money repeatedly pretending to try to repeal it when the math simply does not agree with you, and then throwing a hissy fit and defunding the whole country because not everybody will give you what you want? Not acceptable. If they have the numbers to repeal it, we can have that talk, but they don't, and they're basically trying to hold the whole country hostage.

"I'LL RUIN THE COUNTRY/KILL ANYONE I WANT, UNTILL I GET WHAT I WANT!"

You should run for congress, with that sort of openly anti-american sentiment. I'm sure you could find a bank that would profit from civil war, and who would back you.

You would fit right in with those aggressive, delusional clowns.

Calling for action to take back our constitutional rights is anti American now? Good God.

Just out of curiosity, you don't have to answer obviously, but what is your pre existing condition?

drift freaq · 10-01-2013, 08:32 PM

Ok here is the deal Government shutdown is not going to get rid of Obamacare. Until Obama is out of office and the House does not have a Democratic majority it will most likely be with us to stay. Now I can say the handful of Republicans that steamrolled this shutdown in the name of getting rid of Obamacare did not do themselves any favors. In fact the screwed themselves in the publics eyes. Instead of focusing on budget cuts and getting a budget worked they turned it into a pissing match. The longer it goes on the worse they look from the public's view.
I am on neither side of this but I can say this Democrats tend to be crooked and Republicans tend to be stupid when it comes to Senators and House Representatives.

mechanicalmoron · 10-01-2013, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theronin

Calling for action to take back our constitutional rights is anti American now? Good God.

Just out of curiosity, you don't have to answer obviously, but what is your pre existing condition?

You don't have a constitutional right to be free from obamacare.

You do have a lot of constitutional rights that are being trampled, but it's not by guns or an opposing force, or at least, not one that can't be stopped without guns..... it's by money, special interests, and a system that profits by having ever more laws, arrests, and americans behind bars or in their giant sick peeping-tom databases. The only way to fix this is for people to stop caring about the kardashians and iPhones, and go protest and vote and talk about it. And turn off the TV, it lies, on all the "sides" networks.

I'm type 1 diabetic.

theronin · 10-02-2013, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

You don't have a constitutional right to be free from obamacare.

Yet our President and Congress do?

I have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms, that's being taken away. I have a constitutional right to free speech, yet in certain areas that is suspended.

Have you modified your diet to help your diabetes? Or do you just rely on your shot?

mechanicalmoron · 10-02-2013, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theronin

Yet our President and Congress do?

I have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms, that's being taken away. I have a constitutional right to free speech, yet in certain areas that is suspended.

Have you modified your diet to help your diabetes? Or do you just rely on your shot?

Our president and congress not taking obamacare, when they already have the country's best health care supplied (at our expense), is the least of what any of them are doing wrong. They are (almost all) totally corrupt, and have sold out the country, and continue to do so, and you worry about them not being included in obamacare?

Your right to keep and bear arms is not being taken away whatsoever. It is, and has been since the beginning, expanding, in fact.

For instance, if you actually read the bill of rights, you'll notice that the second amendment does not say you can have any gun you want, it does not say precisely what the right you have is, but leaves the only clue to that it's mention of militias - that is, you have the right to have the gun that the government wants you to have, to fight in the army. It's the only right that is being expanded, currently, and there are two reasons: there's a lot of money in guns, it's a market that really doesn't saturate, and, all the guns in the world won't protect you from the reality of the current state of the country, or those who pull the strings. Thus, guns are like gold and silver: they get some people (incidentally, your enemies) really rich, while making you feel more prepared to face the very problems that you already lost the war to.

diet has little to do with type one diabetes. It's also known as "juvenile diabetes", it's a lifelong condition where the pancreas simply does not make insulin. Carbohydrates consumed must be counted and countered with injected insulin, or the individual would die rather quickly (a matter of days, possibly hours depending on the situation). It's a constant dictator of lifestyle in many ways. It has nothing to do with being fat or unhealthy, it is not a choice I made, and it is not some sort of "bootstraps" issue where I could just not eat potato chips and have my condition disappear. I think your question shows exactly what is wrong with the approach and assumptions you are using - you did not disguise this by asking it in a non-accusatory manner.

tiggertsi · 10-02-2013, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanicalmoron

Our president and congress not taking obamacare, when they already have the country's best health care supplied (at our expense), is the least of what any of them are doing wrong. They are (almost all) totally corrupt, and have sold out the country, and continue to do so, and you worry about them not being included in obamacare?

Your right to keep and bear arms is not being taken away whatsoever. It is, and has been since the beginning, expanding, in fact.

For instance, if you actually read the bill of rights, you'll notice that the second amendment does not say you can have any gun you want, it does not say precisely what the right you have is, but leaves the only clue to that it's mention of militias - that is, you have the right to have the gun that the government wants you to have, to fight in the army. It's the only right that is being expanded, currently, and there are two reasons: there's a lot of money in guns, it's a market that really doesn't saturate, and, all the guns in the world won't protect you from the reality of the current state of the country, or those who pull the strings. Thus, guns are like gold and silver: they get some people (incidentally, your enemies) really rich, while making you feel more prepared to face the very problems that you already lost the war to.

i think your understanding of the 2nd amendment is flawed, if you mean that the type of arm is limited to what government deems is ok and that a militia is a formal military system of the government. just read the drafters own words on the right to bear arms from the time and you'll quickly see this is not the case.

also earlier you mentioned you do not have a constitutional right to be free from obamacare, but there was an early supreme court case were the supreme court decided that the federal government does not have the authority to compel anyone to buy anything particularly as it applies to the commerce clause. later i'll try to find the exact court case to post and let you read it. but this is exactly why the supreme court decision on obamacare had to justify it as a tax on something you refused to buy.

drftngs14 · 10-02-2013, 07:20 AM

Im glad this thread was created because Im an insurance agent, broker. Obviously there is a lot of misinformation being discussed through our wonderful media and current administration. Those on group coverage through employers this reform has affected you as a much as those who buy insurance themselves outside an employer. Reason health insurance costs have increased is for a few reasons:
1) Since insurance carriers have to accept and cover anyone with any pre existing, they had to spread the risk of claims throughout the entire market, including those who are young and healthy, like myself. Im, self employed and pay my own insurance so Im in the same boat as many of you and those I speak with daily.
2) New taxes and fees put in play by this reform causes their administration fees to increase, which in turns makes premiums rise.
3) As claims from people with pre existing conditions come in, those premiums those individuals are paying will not off set the amount going out. This is related to point 1

Now, don't assume Im on the side of insurance companies, Im not. In a way this reform shold net me more income. I am opposed to this reform cause its done nothing to hold down costs, unless of course you don't make a great deal of money and qualify for a decent subsidy from the gov't.

Also keep in mind you are not forced to go into the exchange or marketplace. You can choose to stay in the private sector and pay similar costs to what you're paying now. These plans still have medical underwriting so you can be turned down or have an exclusion placed on a specific condition. The other down fall of staying outside the exchange is you are subject to the tax fine as Obama does not see these plans as "qualified". What I mean by this, these plans provide options to you, you are not forced to select the coverages he sees fit for you. Rememberr all the reform, exchange or marketplace plans must be uniform as these are the qualified plans. Personally, Im keeping my current coverage and paying the fine. Im 27 yrs old, I don't need dr visits, rx, or dental nor do I want to pay 75-100% more through the exchange or marketplace for the same coverage. Since I make over 60k as an individual I qualify for no subsidy and my rate would be 298 instead of 132 per month.

If anyone seems to think the govt should be able to tell you what coverage you have to have, don't complain when they start telling you you can or can not do other things, like possess guns of your choice or job you choose or college you go to.

If anyone needs help or has questions Im more than happy to answer questions, describe your options and if Im licensed in your state Ill help you enroll.

tiggertsi · 10-02-2013, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drftngs14

If anyone seems to think the govt should be able to tell you what coverage you have to have, don't complain when they start telling you you can or can not do other things, like possess guns of your choice or job you choose or college you go to.

bing-fucking-o. well said and very correct. the idea that the government can tell you what to do goes against the very idea of liberty. that is why the constitution was written; to limit the power the federal government and not as some seem to think to provide us with liberty. liberty, ie freedom, is free and given unto you the moment you were born. hence why thomas jefferson wrote in the declaration of independence .....

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

and to end this kind of crap we should do what jefferson goes on to say .......

Quote:

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

which by the way, i think, means revolution.

oh and another jefferson quote, clearly i think he was a badass for his time and still is, anyways .......

Quote:

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

theronin · 10-02-2013, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiggertsi

bing-fucking-o. well said and very correct. the idea that the government can tell you what to do goes against the very idea of liberty. that is why the constitution was written; to limit the power the federal government and not as some seem to think to provide us with liberty. liberty, ie freedom, is free and given unto you the moment you were born. hence why thomas jefferson wrote in the declaration of independence .....

and to end this kind of crap we should do what jefferson goes on to say .......

which by the way, i think, means revolution.

oh and another jefferson quote, clearly i think he was a badass for his time and still is, anyways .......

Careful man, I hear that kinda talk is Un American.

***S14DB*** · 10-02-2013, 03:06 PM

tiggertsi · 10-02-2013, 03:55 PM

/\
||
that reminds me of mark dice and what he does showing how ignorant people are .....

09-30-2013, 08:15 PM	#1
EDacIouSX Post Whore! Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Los Angeles Age: 35 Posts: 4,527 Trader Rating: (53) Rides Gallery: EDacIouSX Feedback Score: 53 reviews	Future of Private Health Insurrance Obamacare is around the corner. My dad's barber just received word from his health provider that his monthly recurring bill will increase by $600 dollars to $990. A customer also said that his health insurance is increasing by $400 a month. I've yet to receive my new fees for 2014 which I will receive sometime in December as I do every year. Has Anyone received any kind of GOOD news from Obamacare who purchases a private health plan?

09-30-2013, 10:46 PM	#2
*S14DB* AFC #1 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: 昨晩あなたのお母さんの家 Posts: 20,181 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	Insurance Company's are not going to give up an opportunity to fuck all of their customers and blame someone else. __________________ Comments should be taken as Opinions not as Statements of Fact

09-30-2013, 11:02 PM	#3
drift freaq R.I.P. Aya, always love Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Los Feliz/Hollywood Posts: 18,558 Trader Rating: (215) Rides Gallery: drift freaq Feedback Score: 215 reviews	I am actually looking at getting my Insurance through the exchange because it might be cheaper than my Blue Cross which is expensive __________________ "Having a lot of tracks on a song is like putting stickers on a car to get more horsepower" New Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uebV1OnbRsw Buy my mounts! http://zilvia.net/f/sale-items/51531...ns-mounts.html http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/317539...e-mouts-6.html

10-01-2013, 07:39 AM	#4
tiggertsi Zilvia Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: TN Posts: 155 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	the only good news i've read about or heard is that there are still people who are opposing it and trying to get it taken down, which it should be. and i am one of the supporters of the opposition to obamacare. if our government gave a rats ass about affordable healthcare maybe they should have looked into legislation that actually solved the problems that cause healthcare to be so high, like corporate greed, corruption and disproportionate amounts of profit coming from the insurance companies. but no they just make it easier to fuck us and make it punishable, economically, to not have insurance which alot of people are having problems with already. i love my country but i am ashamed of this government. __________________ 66 Plymouth Satellite, 96 Nissan 240sx, 03 Harley Sportster. Toys!

10-01-2013, 03:49 PM	#11
roboticnissan Nissanaholic! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: SOCAL/NORCAL Age: 32 Posts: 1,867 Trader Rating: (12) Feedback Score: 12 reviews	Do you see the next president having obamacare removed? __________________

10-01-2013, 07:44 AM	#5
K_style Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Henderson, NV Posts: 7,666 Trader Rating: (63) Rides Gallery: K_style Feedback Score: 63 reviews	I heard Obama stating from his conference yesterday that "You can't shut down Obamacare. It's the law" How sad.....

10-01-2013, 02:22 PM	#8
yetijeff Zilvia Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Corona Ca Age: 31 Posts: 765 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	There is not good news pretty much everyone i know is fucked. Personally it doesn't affect me whatsoever because I'm single with no kids. It was at no cost to me before and is at no cost to me after, my company thankful gives a shit and covered a lot of the increase in rates themselves

10-01-2013, 04:53 PM	#16
sidewaysil80 Nissanaholic! Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: NoVA Age: 35 Posts: 1,710 Trader Rating: (23) Feedback Score: 23 reviews	Just got the notice in the mail...my premium increased $94 a month. Thanks a fucking lot.

10-01-2013, 08:32 PM	#21
drift freaq R.I.P. Aya, always love Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Los Feliz/Hollywood Posts: 18,558 Trader Rating: (215) Rides Gallery: drift freaq Feedback Score: 215 reviews	Ok here is the deal Government shutdown is not going to get rid of Obamacare. Until Obama is out of office and the House does not have a Democratic majority it will most likely be with us to stay. Now I can say the handful of Republicans that steamrolled this shutdown in the name of getting rid of Obamacare did not do themselves any favors. In fact the screwed themselves in the publics eyes. Instead of focusing on budget cuts and getting a budget worked they turned it into a pissing match. The longer it goes on the worse they look from the public's view. I am on neither side of this but I can say this Democrats tend to be crooked and Republicans tend to be stupid when it comes to Senators and House Representatives. __________________ "Having a lot of tracks on a song is like putting stickers on a car to get more horsepower" New Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uebV1OnbRsw Buy my mounts! http://zilvia.net/f/sale-items/51531...ns-mounts.html http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/317539...e-mouts-6.html

10-02-2013, 07:20 AM	#26
drftngs14 Leaky Injector Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Charlotte, NC Age: 35 Posts: 146 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Im glad this thread was created because Im an insurance agent, broker. Obviously there is a lot of misinformation being discussed through our wonderful media and current administration. Those on group coverage through employers this reform has affected you as a much as those who buy insurance themselves outside an employer. Reason health insurance costs have increased is for a few reasons: 1) Since insurance carriers have to accept and cover anyone with any pre existing, they had to spread the risk of claims throughout the entire market, including those who are young and healthy, like myself. Im, self employed and pay my own insurance so Im in the same boat as many of you and those I speak with daily. 2) New taxes and fees put in play by this reform causes their administration fees to increase, which in turns makes premiums rise. 3) As claims from people with pre existing conditions come in, those premiums those individuals are paying will not off set the amount going out. This is related to point 1 Now, don't assume Im on the side of insurance companies, Im not. In a way this reform shold net me more income. I am opposed to this reform cause its done nothing to hold down costs, unless of course you don't make a great deal of money and qualify for a decent subsidy from the gov't. Also keep in mind you are not forced to go into the exchange or marketplace. You can choose to stay in the private sector and pay similar costs to what you're paying now. These plans still have medical underwriting so you can be turned down or have an exclusion placed on a specific condition. The other down fall of staying outside the exchange is you are subject to the tax fine as Obama does not see these plans as "qualified". What I mean by this, these plans provide options to you, you are not forced to select the coverages he sees fit for you. Rememberr all the reform, exchange or marketplace plans must be uniform as these are the qualified plans. Personally, Im keeping my current coverage and paying the fine. Im 27 yrs old, I don't need dr visits, rx, or dental nor do I want to pay 75-100% more through the exchange or marketplace for the same coverage. Since I make over 60k as an individual I qualify for no subsidy and my rate would be 298 instead of 132 per month. If anyone seems to think the govt should be able to tell you what coverage you have to have, don't complain when they start telling you you can or can not do other things, like possess guns of your choice or job you choose or college you go to. If anyone needs help or has questions Im more than happy to answer questions, describe your options and if Im licensed in your state Ill help you enroll.

10-02-2013, 03:06 PM	#29
*S14DB* AFC #1 Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: 昨晩あなたのお母さんの家 Posts: 20,181 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	__________________ Comments should be taken as Opinions not as Statements of Fact

10-02-2013, 03:55 PM	#30
tiggertsi Zilvia Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: TN Posts: 155 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	/\ \|\| that reminds me of mark dice and what he does showing how ignorant people are ..... __________________ 66 Plymouth Satellite, 96 Nissan 240sx, 03 Harley Sportster. Toys!

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode