Car wont start with new Deatschwerks 810's?? - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

brandon19761 · 03-07-2013, 08:13 PM

Hello. I just installed new 810cc injectors to try to rule out injectors as my lean idle problem... My car has a jwt ecu tuned for 740's. I thought I could drop the 810's in and just lean it out via Safc Neo... I started out at -10% which should be close to the difference between the 740's and 810's. Car won't start now...

Any Idea's??

chetos13 · 03-07-2013, 08:38 PM

U need to retune

brandon19761 · 03-07-2013, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chetos13

U need to retune

I've got an Enthalpy ecu coming programmed for the Deats 810's...
I just thought for now I could lean it out via the safc and it would at least run... So nothing to worry about then?

codyace · 03-07-2013, 09:24 PM

Are the 810's the correct impedance?

Before that, I'd take that SAFC off the car and sell it on ebay...the last thing you need is a dial a boom atop a rom tune on that car.

brandon19761 · 03-07-2013, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

Are the 810's the correct impedance?

Before that, I'd take that SAFC off the car and sell it on ebay...the last thing you need is a dial a boom atop a rom tune on that car.

They are high impedance from frs sport. Suppossed to be plug 'n play.
http://www.frsport.com/Deatschwerks-...E_p_27459.html

The Apexi neo was already in the car when I bought it.... It will eventually go.

Frank_Jaeger · 03-07-2013, 11:32 PM

Assuming you removed it, did you put your fuel pump fuse back in? Did you touch your fuel rail any? Did you prime your car a few times before going to start it?

brandon19761 · 03-07-2013, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank_Jaeger

Assuming you removed it, did you put your fuel pump fuse back in? Did you touch your fuel rail any? Did you prime your car a few times before going to start it?

Didn't touch the rail. Car is getting fuel. I pulled the plugs and there is fuel. Fuel pressure is good.... I didn't prime the car first no. It's gotta be the ecu..... Guess I'll know tomorrow.

codyace · 03-08-2013, 07:54 AM

Are the plugs fouled by chance?

brandon19761 · 03-08-2013, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by codyace

Are the plugs fouled by chance?

They were fouled. I cleaned them up and still same...

4x4le · 03-08-2013, 04:13 PM

Deatschwerk injectors are junk. I have had so much trouble tuning cars with them that I no longer touch cars with them.

JWT wont make tunes for their injectors either, which is probably why you had to go with a different brand rather than send your ecu back to jwt.

Your trying to stack too many problem causing elements on top of each other. The odds of having a good running car are diminishing as long as you have crappy injectors, pre tuned ecus and an safc.

brandon19761 · 03-08-2013, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Deatschwerk injectors are junk. I have had so much trouble tuning cars with them that I no longer touch cars with them.

JWT wont make tunes for their injectors either, which is probably why you had to go with a different brand rather than send your ecu back to jwt.

Your trying to stack too many problem causing elements on top of each other. The odds of having a good running car are diminishing as long as you have crappy injectors, pre tuned ecus and an safc.

The car runs great... I was just having super lean idle issues so I decided to change injectors and ecu since everything else has been ruled out....
My harness to run the enthalpy ecu for the 810's will be here tomorrow. We'll see what happens...

4x4le · 03-08-2013, 06:20 PM

Have fun. I guess it seems to reason that some detachworks actually work or they would be out of business.

I have had some un tunable cars with them, and have never had one come out the way i like.

brandon19761 · 03-08-2013, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Have fun. I guess it seems to reason that some detachworks actually work or they would be out of business.

I have had some un tunable cars with them, and have never had one come out the way i like.

I was running nismo 740's. No better than anything else Ive encountered.
My FIC 850's were easier to tune. It's all subjective.

4x4le · 03-08-2013, 09:07 PM

Wait, so you know how to tune but keep purchasing pre tuned ecus? Or are you considering screwing with the tune via safc tuning?

brandon19761 · 03-08-2013, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Wait, so you know how to tune but keep purchasing pre tuned ecus? Or are you considering screwing with the tune via safc tuning?

Thanks for all your help. You can troll on now.

4x4le · 03-08-2013, 10:37 PM

Well that answers my question. I wasnt being a jerk, like you are now, just sharing what i know from experience.

Let us know how your mismatch of cheap bandaid parts work out in the long run. It dont seem promising so far.

Croustibat · 03-09-2013, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Well that answers my question. I wasnt being a jerk, like you are now, just sharing what i know from experience.

Let us know how your mismatch of cheap bandaid parts work out in the long run. It dont seem promising so far.

^^^^^^
that exactly.

If you dont know, you can either learn or pay. But if you got the cheap side ... well buy cheap buy twice.

KiLLeR2001 · 03-08-2013, 10:44 PM

Excellent, I still have some popcorn packets left.

p00t · 03-15-2013, 01:43 PM

Were all the plugs the same? if some are more wet than others I would suspect torn or incorrect size bottom o-rings. They can leak and you would never see with the rail in-place.

brandon19761 · 03-17-2013, 10:16 PM

If you cant leave HELPFULL comments please dont comment.
I put the new ecu in and the car fired right up. Still have to set the neo at
+20 to get the idle a/f ratio right. I know safc's are stupid for tuning!!. I bought the car this way!! Trying to weed out things so I can ditch the SAFC. I'm wondering if the PO put the NEO in just to richin up the idle mixture....?

I will go stand alone in the future, but I have other cars that need things first so I just want to get this thing running decent for now. It screams at WOT! just a lean idle issue..?

So far:
Base timing is correct
Fuel pressure is correct
Raising base fuel pressure makes no impact on idle mixture.
No boost, or vac leaks
IACV is good
New fuel filter
New N62 maf
Tried diff injectors and ecu= No change
Changed plugs and put in magnecor's-just because....

**The car has 264 cams. Could that make it idle lean??

Unplugging the o2 sensor makes no change to A/F ratio on wideband....?
Could bad o2 sensor make it idle that lean??

OrangeVirus1 · 03-17-2013, 10:28 PM

+1 Deaschworks are garbage.

helpful: check the connectors to the injectors.

check your fuel pressure reg.

check that your wideband 02 sensor isn't dead.

raising pressure and not getting difference in the AFR.. I'd say dead wideband 02. they are like 50 bucks. replace it as insurance

brandon19761 · 03-17-2013, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeVirus1

+1 Deaschworks are garbage.

helpful: check the connectors to the injectors.

check your fuel pressure reg.

check that your wideband 02 sensor isn't dead.

raising pressure and not getting difference in the AFR.. I'd say dead wideband 02. they are like 50 bucks. replace it as insurance

Ok.
I will get a new wideband o2 sensor coming and replace the factory nb o2 sensor. The wiring on this car all looks pretty good...
what's the best way to check injector connectors? Just put in new adjustable fpr.... 43.5 psi at idle w/out vacuum. 38 psi at idle with....

Thank you!

4x4le · 03-17-2013, 11:38 PM

Im not saying you should go buy injector dynamics injectors, although it would be one of the best things you could do in order to get your car to run right, but......

If you want to read up on all kinds of information about injectors you should go to their website and read their tech articles. You will then understand how your cheap injectors are never going to suit you even with a good ecu, and how your safc will not allow your ecu to calibrate to the correct dead times of your injectors.

I HIGHLY doubt that your wideband is bad, but your narrow band may very well be. Changing your narrow band isnt a bad idea but since your thinking you might go standalone later, you should just fix your other cars or whatever you say your going to do to them, and get good injectors and a standalone later (living with the poor idle in the mean time).

From what I have seen with deatchwerks, you should just be happy your car runs. Take it however you want to take it but I am being honest and helpful. You will spend more time and money trying to bandaid these junk injectors and bench tuned ecu/safc than what it would cost to do it right.

You so far have:
2 ~$500 ecus
2 sets of injectors

when starting out with injector dynamics injectors (or even some lower cost msd injectors would do much better than this) and nistune or aem you most likely would not have this issue to deal with, you would have better parts, and you most likely would be money ahead.

brandon19761 · 03-17-2013, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Im not saying you should go buy injector dynamics injectors, although it would be one of the best things you could do in order to get your car to run right, but......

If you want to read up on all kinds of information about injectors you should go to their website and read their tech articles. You will then understand how your cheap injectors are never going to suit you even with a good ecu, and how your safc will not allow your ecu to calibrate to the correct dead times of your injectors.

I HIGHLY doubt that your wideband is bad, but your narrow band may very well be. Changing your narrow band isnt a bad idea but since your thinking you might go standalone later, you should just fix your other cars or whatever you say your going to do to them, and get good injectors and a standalone later (living with the poor idle in the mean time).

From what I have seen with deatchwerks, you should just be happy your car runs. Take it however you want to take it but I am being honest and helpful. You will spend more time and money trying to bandaid these junk injectors and bench tuned ecu/safc than what it would cost to do it right.

You so far have:
2 ~$500 ecus
2 sets of injectors

when starting out with injector dynamics injectors (or even some lower cost msd injectors would do much better than this) and nistune or aem you most likely would not have this issue to deal with, you would have better parts, and you most likely would be money ahead.

If you would read my post's. The INJECTORS are not the issue here...
I went from a jwt ecu tuned for 740 nismo injectors to enthalpy with 810 deats injectors. Made NO NO NO difference....
Injectors are not an issue here....

brandon19761 · 03-17-2013, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4le

Im not saying you should go buy injector dynamics injectors, although it would be one of the best things you could do in order to get your car to run right, but......

If you want to read up on all kinds of information about injectors you should go to their website and read their tech articles. You will then understand how your cheap injectors are never going to suit you even with a good ecu, and how your safc will not allow your ecu to calibrate to the correct dead times of your injectors.

I HIGHLY doubt that your wideband is bad, but your narrow band may very well be. Changing your narrow band isnt a bad idea but since your thinking you might go standalone later, you should just fix your other cars or whatever you say your going to do to them, and get good injectors and a standalone later (living with the poor idle in the mean time).

From what I have seen with deatchwerks, you should just be happy your car runs. Take it however you want to take it but I am being honest and helpful. You will spend more time and money trying to bandaid these junk injectors and bench tuned ecu/safc than what it would cost to do it right.

You so far have:
2 ~$500 ecus
2 sets of injectors

when starting out with injector dynamics injectors (or even some lower cost msd injectors would do much better than this) and nistune or aem you most likely would not have this issue to deal with, you would have better parts, and you most likely would be money ahead.

How should I "do it right".?? This car is only a toy not a DD I just want to make sure its running right!

4x4le · 03-18-2013, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandon19761

If you would read my post's. The INJECTORS are not the issue here...
I went from a jwt ecu tuned for 740 nismo injectors to enthalpy with 810 deats injectors. Made NO NO NO difference....
Injectors are not an issue here....

I know you said that, but the constant there is still that you have a bench tuned ecu.

Other than that, nismo injectors are good however it does take a good injector to get a good idle when using that large of an injector on 500cc cylinders. It is hard to imagine that that a large injector would provide anything but a rich idle but thats where the reading on injector dynamics website would come in handy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brandon19761

How should I "do it right".??

The ways I mentioned.....
You have a desire for wine on a beer budget. I do suggest a new narrow band, and that could actually take care of things :fingers crossed: but if it does not your either going to need to live with the issue or step up the game with better components.

There is a reason people pay over $200 an hour for tuning on a dyno and its not about squeezing every last hp out of the engine, it is so every issue like this is at least trouble shot and if possible corrected. When something like this is encountered (by me at least) when tuning I can explain what the problem is and back it up with data, and usually fix it or make it better. I have grown to not like any large injector that is not premium although sub 700cc injectors usually are good as long as the brand is at least reputable.

I have grown to dislike cars with 5-0 injectors and refuse to tune cars with deatchwerks. If they are a good denso or jecs 700 and up injector Its possible the idle wont be "perfect"

brandon19761 · 03-18-2013, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4x4le

I know you said that, but the constant there is still that you have a bench tuned ecu.

Other than that, nismo injectors are good however it does take a good injector to get a good idle when using that large of an injector on 500cc cylinders. It is hard to imagine that that a large injector would provide anything but a rich idle but thats where the reading on injector dynamics website would come in handy.

The ways I mentioned.....
You have a desire for wine on a beer budget. I do suggest a new narrow band, and that could actually take care of things :fingers crossed: but if it does not your either going to need to live with the issue or step up the game with better components.

There is a reason people pay over $200 an hour for tuning on a dyno and its not about squeezing every last hp out of the engine, it is so every issue like this is at least trouble shot and if possible corrected. When something like this is encountered (by me at least) when tuning I can explain what the problem is and back it up with data, and usually fix it or make it better. I have grown to not like any large injector that is not premium although sub 700cc injectors usually are good as long as the brand is at least reputable.

I have grown to dislike cars with 5-0 injectors and refuse to tune cars with deatchwerks. If they are a good denso or jecs 700 and up injector Its possible the idle wont be "perfect"

should I down size injectors? I don't plan on more than 400whp max...

OrangeVirus1 · 03-17-2013, 11:43 PM

Siemen Deka's are just as good as Injector Dynamics..

I run 60lb dekas with absolutely zero issues

4x4le · 03-18-2013, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeVirus1

Siemen Deka's are just as good as Injector Dynamics..

I run 60lb dekas with absolutely zero issues

it would be hard for any ev14 to be bad, but everyone that builds injectors based off of ev14s try to ride on the backs of the successful injector dynamics reputation.

I have not seen one website that sells them that dont have IDs data quoted or mention the injector dynamics name. Its funny to me, why cannot they build their own reputation...
Deka is not one specifically I have looked into doing this, and they may very well be great, like I said it would be hard to make a crappy ev14 as the injector is such a great platform to start with!

I also think that it is border line overkill the extensive dynamic matching ID does, and I think most other injector manufuractures do too (so they dont do it) but it is nice to know that every ID injector is broken in, dynamically tested and batched together.

OrangeVirus1 · 03-17-2013, 11:57 PM

well it can really only be a few different things :
bad 02 sensor, bad fpr, you said the fpr is new, so I'm going with bad 02 sensor, or possibly bad maf giving low voltage readings

03-07-2013, 08:13 PM	#1
brandon19761 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Idaho Falls Age: 44 Posts: 48 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Car wont start with new Deatschwerks 810's?? Hello. I just installed new 810cc injectors to try to rule out injectors as my lean idle problem... My car has a jwt ecu tuned for 740's. I thought I could drop the 810's in and just lean it out via Safc Neo... I started out at -10% which should be close to the difference between the 740's and 810's. Car won't start now... Any Idea's?? __________________ '95 S14 KA24det, '96 Z32tt, '93Z32tt, '93 Z32 NA slicktop!!

03-07-2013, 08:38 PM	#2
chetos13 Zilvia Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: las vegas, nv Age: 35 Posts: 206 Trader Rating: (2) Feedback Score: 2 reviews	U need to retune __________________ TEAM ELITE

03-07-2013, 09:24 PM	#4
codyace Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poconos, PA Age: 36 Posts: 8,030 Trader Rating: (58) Feedback Score: 58 reviews	Are the 810's the correct impedance? Before that, I'd take that SAFC off the car and sell it on ebay...the last thing you need is a dial a boom atop a rom tune on that car. __________________ *Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information! Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20!* Check my Group Buy! Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

03-08-2013, 07:54 AM	#8
codyace Post Whore! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poconos, PA Age: 36 Posts: 8,030 Trader Rating: (58) Feedback Score: 58 reviews	Are the plugs fouled by chance? __________________ *Want Air Conditioning in your SR20 Swapped car? Check out www.sr20acbrackets.com for more information! Quest Alternator Conversions for SR20!* Check my Group Buy! Tired of lousy internal gates? Go external wastegate with one of my manifolds, Check out my group buy

03-08-2013, 10:44 PM	#18
KiLLeR2001 Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: オーランドフロリダ Posts: 7,955 Trader Rating: (46) Feedback Score: 46 reviews	Excellent, I still have some popcorn packets left. __________________

03-07-2013, 11:32 PM	#6
Frank_Jaeger Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Port Charlotte, Florida Age: 29 Posts: 1,352 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Assuming you removed it, did you put your fuel pump fuse back in? Did you touch your fuel rail any? Did you prime your car a few times before going to start it?

03-08-2013, 04:13 PM	#10
4x4le Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Manchester, Tn Posts: 1,253 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Deatschwerk injectors are junk. I have had so much trouble tuning cars with them that I no longer touch cars with them. JWT wont make tunes for their injectors either, which is probably why you had to go with a different brand rather than send your ecu back to jwt. Your trying to stack too many problem causing elements on top of each other. The odds of having a good running car are diminishing as long as you have crappy injectors, pre tuned ecus and an safc.

03-08-2013, 06:20 PM	#12
4x4le Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Manchester, Tn Posts: 1,253 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Have fun. I guess it seems to reason that some detachworks actually work or they would be out of business. I have had some un tunable cars with them, and have never had one come out the way i like.

03-08-2013, 09:07 PM	#14
4x4le Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Manchester, Tn Posts: 1,253 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Wait, so you know how to tune but keep purchasing pre tuned ecus? Or are you considering screwing with the tune via safc tuning?

03-08-2013, 10:37 PM	#16
4x4le Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Manchester, Tn Posts: 1,253 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Well that answers my question. I wasnt being a jerk, like you are now, just sharing what i know from experience. Let us know how your mismatch of cheap bandaid parts work out in the long run. It dont seem promising so far.

03-15-2013, 01:43 PM	#19
p00t Leaky Injector Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: mi, usa Posts: 71 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Were all the plugs the same? if some are more wet than others I would suspect torn or incorrect size bottom o-rings. They can leak and you would never see with the rail in-place.

03-17-2013, 10:16 PM	#20
brandon19761 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Idaho Falls Age: 44 Posts: 48 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	If you cant leave HELPFULL comments please dont comment. I put the new ecu in and the car fired right up. Still have to set the neo at +20 to get the idle a/f ratio right. I know safc's are stupid for tuning!!. I bought the car this way!! Trying to weed out things so I can ditch the SAFC. I'm wondering if the PO put the NEO in just to richin up the idle mixture....? I will go stand alone in the future, but I have other cars that need things first so I just want to get this thing running decent for now. It screams at WOT! just a lean idle issue..? So far: Base timing is correct Fuel pressure is correct Raising base fuel pressure makes no impact on idle mixture. No boost, or vac leaks IACV is good New fuel filter New N62 maf Tried diff injectors and ecu= No change Changed plugs and put in magnecor's-just because.... **The car has 264 cams. Could that make it idle lean?? Unplugging the o2 sensor makes no change to A/F ratio on wideband....? Could bad o2 sensor make it idle that lean?? __________________ '95 S14 KA24det, '96 Z32tt, '93Z32tt, '93 Z32 NA slicktop!!

03-17-2013, 10:28 PM	#21
OrangeVirus1 BANNED Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: PyongYang DPRK-N. Korea, Province 2 Posts: 1,236 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	+1 Deaschworks are garbage. helpful: check the connectors to the injectors. check your fuel pressure reg. check that your wideband 02 sensor isn't dead. raising pressure and not getting difference in the AFR.. I'd say dead wideband 02. they are like 50 bucks. replace it as insurance

03-17-2013, 11:38 PM	#23
4x4le Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Manchester, Tn Posts: 1,253 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Im not saying you should go buy injector dynamics injectors, although it would be one of the best things you could do in order to get your car to run right, but...... If you want to read up on all kinds of information about injectors you should go to their website and read their tech articles. You will then understand how your cheap injectors are never going to suit you even with a good ecu, and how your safc will not allow your ecu to calibrate to the correct dead times of your injectors. I HIGHLY doubt that your wideband is bad, but your narrow band may very well be. Changing your narrow band isnt a bad idea but since your thinking you might go standalone later, you should just fix your other cars or whatever you say your going to do to them, and get good injectors and a standalone later (living with the poor idle in the mean time). From what I have seen with deatchwerks, you should just be happy your car runs. Take it however you want to take it but I am being honest and helpful. You will spend more time and money trying to bandaid these junk injectors and bench tuned ecu/safc than what it would cost to do it right. You so far have: 2 ~$500 ecus 2 sets of injectors when starting out with injector dynamics injectors (or even some lower cost msd injectors would do much better than this) and nistune or aem you most likely would not have this issue to deal with, you would have better parts, and you most likely would be money ahead.

03-17-2013, 11:43 PM	#28
OrangeVirus1 BANNED Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: PyongYang DPRK-N. Korea, Province 2 Posts: 1,236 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Siemen Deka's are just as good as Injector Dynamics.. I run 60lb dekas with absolutely zero issues

03-17-2013, 11:57 PM	#30
OrangeVirus1 BANNED Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: PyongYang DPRK-N. Korea, Province 2 Posts: 1,236 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	well it can really only be a few different things : bad 02 sensor, bad fpr, you said the fpr is new, so I'm going with bad 02 sensor, or possibly bad maf giving low voltage readings

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