This is the roll center, suspension pickup, and steering angle modification thread. - Page 113 - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

ILoveMyRHS13 · 11-24-2011, 03:22 PM

Nope, that definitely looks dumb.

PoorMans180SX · 11-24-2011, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILoveMyRHS13

Nope, that definitely looks dumb.

You people are strange.

*TheRealSy90* · 11-24-2011, 03:54 PM

I like how a new kit comes out that seems to be getting more angle than anything available, and it's hated in a steering angle thread.

*!Zar!* · 11-24-2011, 03:55 PM

That's how all 2012 formula-d cars will look.

drift-junkie · 11-24-2011, 03:58 PM

Set of knucks i made a few weeks ago. Very short tie rod pickup with huge reduction in ackerman and bumpsteer correction. This is my first set and i am pleased with how they turned out. Next set will be made with roll center correction as well.

As of now my 16x8 0 offset hits the tension rod at full lock with the leading wheels tie rod hitting the control arm. This is with stock s13 lca's with lengthened tein inners and 7mm rack spacers.

shiftdrift · 11-24-2011, 04:09 PM

So I have plenty of fabrication experience and work as a fabricator at a hot rod/ nascar shop. Have a personal miller ac/dc tig welder and would like to get into modifying front knuckles. I'm decent with suspension setups as I build custom ones at work but what are some pointers?

nieko · 11-24-2011, 04:26 PM

Why is everyone hating on wisefab? How can you have TOO much angle in drifting? Lolol makes no sense...

articdragon192 · 11-24-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nieko

Why is everyone hating on wisefab? How can you have TOO much angle in drifting? Lolol makes no sense...

I wish I could like this, hahaha. People asking for more angle, something insane come out, and it gets hate, lol.

thefro526 · 11-24-2011, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nieko

Why is everyone hating on wisefab? How can you have TOO much angle in drifting? Lolol makes no sense...

I don't like their construction methods, personally. No reason to make everything from billet like they do, just drives the cost up.

Also, does the wisefab kit not work with fenders or something? Every E30 or other BMW I've seen with the kit doesn't have fenders.

shiftdrift · 11-24-2011, 04:47 PM

Probably because they get in the way.

articdragon192 · 11-24-2011, 04:49 PM

This car has fender. Same BMW angle kit

thefro526 · 11-24-2011, 07:05 PM

Hmmm.

Maybe fender interference varies by Chassis? I think that's the first E36 I've seen with Wisefab gear.

godrifttoday · 11-24-2011, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nieko

Why is everyone hating on wisefab? How can you have TOO much angle in drifting? Lolol makes no sense...

Why??? Because it's not PBM or drift works ! That's y

swiftmini · 11-25-2011, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Wisefab kits are no joke guys. Who else do you know that 3d models the front suspension before they go about modding it?

Their 3-series kits are very well thought out and very effective in competition, I'm betting this kit will be just as good. It probably won't be as cheap as the PSM or Driftworks kit, but it will be just as good IMO.

My only real concern is that they appear to have developed and produced a kit within 8 weeks or so. Dw and psm have spent years tweaking and developing and i think that they have some emmense drivers onboard to help develop.

It's an interesting kit though, its basically a copy of Nigel petries early knuckle ideas which he gave up on, because of flex among other things!

More angle the better. Haters need to try it out before hating imo.

Pandapants · 11-25-2011, 06:37 AM

I like the idea off being able to "bolt on" the kit to your stock knuckles. I don't really like the cnc'ed lower control arm or the lack of sai. Didn't psm try that and end up with a lot of binding? I'd also like to see some overcentering shots.

PoorMans180SX · 11-25-2011, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiftmini

My only real concern is that they appear to have developed and produced a kit within 8 weeks or so. Dw and psm have spent years tweaking and developing and i think that they have some emmense drivers onboard to help develop.

It's an interesting kit though, its basically a copy of Nigel petries early knuckle ideas which he gave up on, because of flex among other things!

More angle the better. Haters need to try it out before hating imo.

Driftworks simply copied SP-tec. No development there.

And this, from what I can tell, bolts to the bottom of the knuckle through the LCA and tie rod holes, and re-locates them. This is a just a educated guess based on the BMW kit and the one tiny shot you can see the parts. Very different from Nigel's, which was a thin steel piece bolted under the front hub.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandapants

I like the idea off being able to "bolt on" the kit to your stock knuckles. I don't really like the cnc'ed lower control arm or the lack of sai. Didn't psm try that and end up with a lot of binding? I'd also like to see some overcentering shots.

Why don't you like the CNC lower arm? I'm sure it's about 40000x as strong as the stock one. I think you mean the lack of caster. They say no binding, I'm guessing that depends on caster, but we'll see.

Have you guys watched their videos? I hold high hopes based on those. The BMW kits have good self-steering, and massive, smooth angle. We'll see eh?

PoorMans180SX · 11-25-2011, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift-junkie

Set of knucks i made a few weeks ago. Very short tie rod pickup with huge reduction in ackerman and bumpsteer correction. This is my first set and i am pleased with how they turned out. Next set will be made with roll center correction as well.

As of now my 16x8 0 offset hits the tension rod at full lock with the leading wheels tie rod hitting the control arm. This is with stock s13 lca's with lengthened tein inners and 7mm rack spacers.

Those look nice, similar to the BillSpeer kit. Give us your alignment specs and some action shots! Any binding?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiftdrift

So I have plenty of fabrication experience and work as a fabricator at a hot rod/ nascar shop. Have a personal miller ac/dc tig welder and would like to get into modifying front knuckles. I'm decent with suspension setups as I build custom ones at work but what are some pointers?

The main thing is getting the ackerman right for the kind of setup you want to produce. The big shops seem to have the "ultimate knuckles" down, so you'll probably want to make a conservative setup for the grassroots guy. I know this thread is massive, but look through it, you'll find good info. I'll try to get that update done to the original post with some more info in it.

Hashiriya415 · 11-25-2011, 02:11 PM

Is this normal, or is it an issue? Looking at the tie rod boot, I see the shaft from the rack bending up and down, especially when getting close to full lock.
When the tire hits the tension rod it bends a lot, I need to adjust stoppers to prevent tire hitting tension until I get new tension rods.
~mods
angle spacers on both sides
stock s13 inner and outer rods
knuckles 7* ackerman if I remember correctly, bump steer dropped 1in, shortened.
rack moved 1in forward

Motary · 11-26-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiftmini

My only real concern is that they appear to have developed and produced a kit within 8 weeks or so. Dw and psm have spent years tweaking and developing and i think that they have some emmense drivers onboard to help develop.

It's an interesting kit though, its basically a copy of Nigel petries early knuckle ideas which he gave up on, because of flex among other things!

More angle the better. Haters need to try it out before hating imo.

This is because their engineer is a real race car engineer and uses state of the art equipment and they already have made a kit for BMW, so they have experience and driver feedback on how the modifications perform. In my opinion this is what you have to do if you want to succeed in this over flooded S-chassis suspension modifications world.

I don't see why you guys hating on a complete bolt on kit that has a lot of improvements for a drift car, where every part of it is designed to work together. This is wonderful, but I think it will be as expensive as the BMW kit, a 950€ plus vat (20% in Estonia). I'll post more info as it is released

rbs14kouki · 11-26-2011, 07:08 PM

Abit more on the wisefab s-chassi kit ... Sorry if repost

Wisefab preparing for S chassis - YouTube

Pandapants · 11-27-2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoorMans180SX

Why don't you like the CNC lower arm? I'm sure it's about 40000x as strong as the stock one. I think you mean the lack of caster. They say no binding, I'm guessing that depends on caster, but we'll see.

The ball joint doesn't retain the same angle as the stock arm. That's the SAI right? I can't remember what it's called; KPI? PSM had something similar with their prototype arms, but I thought I read Dan say something about having to angle the balljoint bc of some binding issues.

PoorMans180SX · 11-27-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pandapants

The ball joint doesn't retain the same angle as the stock arm. That's the SAI right? I can't remember what it's called; KPI? PSM had something similar with their prototype arms, but I thought I read Dan say something about having to angle the balljoint bc of some binding issues.

There are no pictures of the wisefab kit, so we don't know yet.

s13asher · 11-28-2011, 10:57 AM

This thread has answered every question i had about S chassis suspension.

Thanks to the OP!
-asher

DC Dan MAX USA · 11-28-2011, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by !Zar!

That's how all 2012 formula-d cars will look.

Not really applicable to FD, you cant use insane angle in a competition because you cant disrupt the speed without getting docked major points.
Backwards entry contest...by all means...you DO need 65* and zero ackerman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by godrifttoday

omg! omg!!!!!! lets wait for PBM to REPLY now....

Im not understanding what the fuss is about this new angle kit coming to market.
You guys do realize that the drift car does need to grip drive some corners in some circuits to build up speed for the drifting section of the course? You need some ackerman. I personally never hit my steering lock while drifting a course, I do when I am trying backwards entries.

So you can get today from Parts Shop MAX up to 62 degrees of angle and the lowest usefull ackerman down to 9.5% difference at lock, 45mm roll center correction, OEM bump steer, quick steering....For $400
Or a kit that may cost $1200 to get a few more degrees angle, zero ackerman plus 11 more mm roll center?
If the second option is what makes your heart pump guys, if seeing zero ackerman really makes you want to throw 3x the money at a kit that does that, let me know and I'll totally make this happen for you.

Now let me hit you with some knowledge about a must have new product that will NOT break your bank:

MAX Steering Rack Eccentric Bushing (SREB) set is finished testing and now in production.

~ Price is $50 with free shipping world wide in January (paypal [email protected] to reserve your set)
~ Production parts will be anodized gold aluminum
~ Prevents over centering of tie rod and knuckle to prevent heavy steering at lock
~ Takes ackerman curve from digressive to progressive difference while decreasing overall ackerman

So why is the progressive ackerman better? Its because you get a slower increase in ackerman towards lock, and a quicker ackerman increase on more modest steering inputs. In other words, your low steering input on a GRIP corner will receive the ackerman it needs and the DRIFT steering angle gets less ackerman per steering degree towards lock.

SicBastard · 11-29-2011, 10:08 AM

Dan, what effect would the steering eccentric spacer/bushings have on a grip car with stock knuckles? Do you feel that the ackerman is well set up on a stock car for grip?

95KA-Turbo · 11-29-2011, 10:28 AM

Damn it! I just did my steering rack and bushings, I wanted some metal ones but the URAS ones were too expensive to justify. So do these slightly space the rack a little more forward?

PoorMans180SX · 11-29-2011, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

For $400
Or a kit that may cost $1200 to get a few more degrees angle, zero ackerman plus 11 more mm roll center?

Dan, I'm assuming the wisefab kit will include it's own spherical LCA's and such, so the more accurate price would be $900 for your parts. Closer, but I doubt wisefab's kit will have the adjust-ability of your parts.

Also, thank you for sharing the effects of the steering rack relocation! I've never seen that recorded, and it shows that you are doing proper R&D on your parts.

Do you mind if I use your pics and diagram in the original post of this thread? I can even quote your post if you'd like.

DC Dan MAX USA · 11-29-2011, 11:25 AM

Sic, the stock ackerman is good for traction during regular steering, and reduced ackerman knuckle and rack position is good for countersteer. Your grip car can take advantage of the MAX roll center only pro grip knuckle.

I have been sitting on this data for a while because I thought it would be more interesting to take the time to provide comparison test data from multiple setups for debut but y'all were calling me out, lol.

It does move a little farther forward than the URAS rubber SREB.

Please feel free to repost, it is defenately something no one has ever done before.

rbs14kouki · 11-29-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC Dan MAX USA

Not really applicable to FD, you cant use insane angle in a competition because you cant disrupt the speed without getting docked major points.
Backwards entry contest...by all means...you DO need 65* and zero ackerman.

Im not understanding what the fuss is about this new angle kit coming to market.
You guys do realize that the drift car does need to grip drive some corners in some circuits to build up speed for the drifting section of the course? You need some ackerman. I personally never hit my steering lock while drifting a course, I do when I am trying backwards entries.

So you can get today from Parts Shop MAX up to 62 degrees of angle and the lowest usefull ackerman down to 9.5% difference at lock, 45mm roll center correction, OEM bump steer, quick steering....For $400
Or a kit that may cost $1200 to get a few more degrees angle, zero ackerman plus 11 more mm roll center?
If the second option is what makes your heart pump guys, if seeing zero ackerman really makes you want to throw 3x the money at a kit that does that, let me know and I'll totally make this happen for you.

Now let me hit you with some knowledge about a must have new product that will NOT break your bank:

MAX Steering Rack Eccentric Bushing (SREB) set is finished testing and now in production.

~ Price is $50 with free shipping world wide in January (paypal [email protected] to reserve your set)
~ Production parts will be anodized gold aluminum
~ Prevents over centering of tie rod and knuckle to prevent heavy steering at lock
~ Takes ackerman curve from digressive to progressive difference while decreasing overall ackerman

So why is the progressive ackerman better? Its because you get a slower increase in ackerman towards lock, and a quicker ackerman increase on more modest steering inputs. In other words, your low steering input on a GRIP corner will receive the ackerman it needs and the DRIFT steering angle gets less ackerman per steering degree towards lock.

Do you take pre-order ??? Ready to send some money

*!Zar!* · 11-29-2011, 03:25 PM

Those things are cool.

Who knows if I need them or not. But for the price it's awesome. Gotta get me some of those and some PBM offset rack spacerssssssssssssssssssssss

11-24-2011, 03:55 PM	#3364
!Zar! Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Korea Posts: 14,576 Trader Rating: (27) Feedback Score: 27 reviews	That's how all 2012 formula-d cars will look. __________________

11-24-2011, 04:09 PM	#3366
shiftdrift Nissanaholic! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: indiana Age: 31 Posts: 2,242 Trader Rating: (42) Feedback Score: 42 reviews	So I have plenty of fabrication experience and work as a fabricator at a hot rod/ nascar shop. Have a personal miller ac/dc tig welder and would like to get into modifying front knuckles. I'm decent with suspension setups as I build custom ones at work but what are some pointers? __________________ SW Fab

11-24-2011, 04:26 PM	#3367
nieko Post Whore! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Westminster Age: 30 Posts: 2,694 Trader Rating: (14) Feedback Score: 14 reviews	Why is everyone hating on wisefab? How can you have TOO much angle in drifting? Lolol makes no sense... __________________

11-24-2011, 04:47 PM	#3370
shiftdrift Nissanaholic! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: indiana Age: 31 Posts: 2,242 Trader Rating: (42) Feedback Score: 42 reviews	Probably because they get in the way. __________________ SW Fab

11-24-2011, 04:49 PM	#3371
articdragon192 Post Whore! Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: West covina/ Irvine Age: 35 Posts: 6,789 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	This car has fender. Same BMW angle kit __________________ Need help? Click here Still stumped? Try this Can't find what you're looking for? Here you go.

11-24-2011, 03:58 PM	#3365
drift-junkie Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: newport nc Age: 33 Posts: 4 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Set of knucks i made a few weeks ago. Very short tie rod pickup with huge reduction in ackerman and bumpsteer correction. This is my first set and i am pleased with how they turned out. Next set will be made with roll center correction as well. As of now my 16x8 0 offset hits the tension rod at full lock with the leading wheels tie rod hitting the control arm. This is with stock s13 lca's with lengthened tein inners and 7mm rack spacers.

11-24-2011, 07:05 PM	#3372
thefro526 Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,813 Trader Rating: (8) Feedback Score: 8 reviews	Hmmm. Maybe fender interference varies by Chassis? I think that's the first E36 I've seen with Wisefab gear. __________________ http://thefro526.wordpress.com/ Deto International

11-25-2011, 06:37 AM	#3375
Pandapants Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: SoFla Age: 32 Posts: 302 Trader Rating: (4) Feedback Score: 4 reviews	I like the idea off being able to "bolt on" the kit to your stock knuckles. I don't really like the cnc'ed lower control arm or the lack of sai. Didn't psm try that and end up with a lot of binding? I'd also like to see some overcentering shots.

11-25-2011, 02:11 PM	#3378
Hashiriya415 Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: San Francisco Age: 33 Posts: 1,007 Trader Rating: (22) Feedback Score: 22 reviews	Is this normal, or is it an issue? Looking at the tie rod boot, I see the shaft from the rack bending up and down, especially when getting close to full lock. When the tire hits the tension rod it bends a lot, I need to adjust stoppers to prevent tire hitting tension until I get new tension rods. ~mods angle spacers on both sides stock s13 inner and outer rods knuckles 7* ackerman if I remember correctly, bump steer dropped 1in, shortened. rack moved 1in forward

11-26-2011, 07:08 PM	#3380
rbs14kouki Zilvia Addict Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Montreal , Canada Age: 35 Posts: 817 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Abit more on the wisefab s-chassi kit ... Sorry if repost Wisefab preparing for S chassis - YouTube __________________ AV FABRICATION Built thread sr20vet s14 http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=535574

11-28-2011, 10:57 AM	#3383
s13asher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: hwy 315 Age: 38 Posts: 28 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	This thread has answered every question i had about S chassis suspension. Thanks to the OP! -asher

11-29-2011, 10:08 AM	#3385
SicBastard Zilvia Addict Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 803 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Dan, what effect would the steering eccentric spacer/bushings have on a grip car with stock knuckles? Do you feel that the ackerman is well set up on a stock car for grip? __________________ BURN OUT IN YOUR FACE! 1998 S14 LS7/T56 swap in progress, build thread: http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/147301...d-gto-pan.html

11-29-2011, 10:28 AM	#3386
95KA-Turbo Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: LA Age: 36 Posts: 3,402 Trader Rating: (19) Feedback Score: 19 reviews	Damn it! I just did my steering rack and bushings, I wanted some metal ones but the URAS ones were too expensive to justify. So do these slightly space the rack a little more forward? __________________ Instagram - SJKnoop

11-29-2011, 11:25 AM	#3388
DC Dan MAX USA Zilvia.net Advertiser Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 2,478 Trader Rating: (79) Feedback Score: 79 reviews	Sic, the stock ackerman is good for traction during regular steering, and reduced ackerman knuckle and rack position is good for countersteer. Your grip car can take advantage of the MAX roll center only pro grip knuckle. I have been sitting on this data for a while because I thought it would be more interesting to take the time to provide comparison test data from multiple setups for debut but y'all were calling me out, lol. It does move a little farther forward than the URAS rubber SREB. Please feel free to repost, it is defenately something no one has ever done before. __________________ How To order: You can order directly from our zilvia advertiser threads. When you add to cart, you get an instant shipping estimate, & the cart will remember all of your items as you move between forum threads and our website www.poweredbymax.net until you remove them or check out. I can also calculate estimates manually for you but the cart's estimates are way faster and more accurate. Order Inquiry: IM me your real name and paypal address. Thanks for your business! Last edited by DC Dan MAX USA; 11-29-2011 at 12:18 PM..

11-29-2011, 03:25 PM	#3390
!Zar! Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Korea Posts: 14,576 Trader Rating: (27) Feedback Score: 27 reviews	Those things are cool. Who knows if I need them or not. But for the price it's awesome. Gotta get me some of those and some PBM offset rack spacerssssssssssssssssssssss __________________

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